Menu
Jump to content

What's with the ads?

StellaM

Single sex spaces and segregation - what do you think ? Needed or not ?

Recommended Posts

I'm curious why you consider violent offenders changing their identities legally a problem? It's not as though they escape their pasts that way. Your SSN goes with you. Your criminal record is easily traced through the name change, which is a public court record. It doesn't get anyone out of any punishment or civil supervision (sex offender registry for example).

You have way more confidence in bureaucracies than I do...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ds has grown over an inch since starting testosterone. He's had lots of changes that the doctors said he might not have. He didn't start hormones until he was 17 (he had his first cycle at 11) but the changes have been crazy. He has blood work every few months and his levels are just now in a normal range but, again, the changes have been dramatic. It's not the same for everyone, of course. He just recently developed a rather noticeable adam's apple and was super excited as most other transgender males he's met didn't really get one.

I'm glad he's happy.

Edited by StellaM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course, I agree with you. Those children deserve careful treatment based on good science.

I'm not convinced that affirmative treatment and early medical transition is either of those things.

 

What is it that you recommend, then? Honestly asking. I lost a few siblings over my son being transgender but none of them could answer the question of what we should have done. And it needs to be something we weren't already doing. Can you really not see that sometimes the only thing to do would be to let them transition? 

Edited by Joker
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know how I can be clearer that I am not, personally, against your son.

 

I prefer the GRC model in the UK - SRS isn't required, but living full time as the opposite sex for a period of time (2yrs?) is, as is a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Oh, and being 18+. The self ID kerfuffle there is about males without a GNC being able to stand on all women's short lists. It is not about transwomen with a GNC.

 

Personally, I do not like models that allow legal sex change under the age of 18. I understand, though, it has been helpful for your child.

 

I live with a trans adult child. I get that it's not for laughs.

 

So...you do realize that 1. WPATH (the international body that guides transgender health care and transition) no longer requires living for a period as one's affirming gender before treatment? And that doing so requires trans women who have had no surgery, only (usually) hormone therapy to exist in women's spaces such as restrooms, etc., because they are expected to live as women? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have way more confidence in bureaucracies than I do...

Not to mention the issues with data collection, where male crimes, needs etc are classified as female.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So...you do realize that 1. WPATH (the international body that guides transgender health care and transition) no longer requires living for a period as one's affirming gender before treatment? And that doing so requires trans women who have had no surgery, only (usually) hormone therapy to exist in women's spaces such as restrooms, etc., because they are expected to live as women?

OK.

 

I'm not sure what you want me to do with that information. All it tells me is that no, women weren't consulted about their loss of the right to single sex exemptions.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are equating ALL trans activism with "extreme" trans activism. That makes as much sense as equating ALL activism on behalf of women with TERFs. Or all Christian missionaries with Westboro Baptist church. Or every Muslim with the Islamic State. Do you see where I'm going with this? The fringe is not representative of the whole.

The fringe is shutting down discussion, literally attacking people and governments are listening to them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This leaves me asking again, what about the transgender youth who don't go through puberty for their assigned sex? Who transition in their early teens or younger?

I honestly don't know because I have no idea what the numbers are for transgendered youth who don't go through puberty of their assigned sex. What are the numbers there? 

 

I do personally know one athlete who is now identifying as male ( I first knew him as female). I have no idea about whether or not he is taking hormones, but he is still competing as a female. And in a suit with a cap, he is very much female to the eyes. In fact, if you did not know the backstory, he looks like every other female swimmer.

 

I don't know how much long-term use of hormones has been studied in the transgendered population because it seems like these are relatively small numbers, but I don't know how much change hormones can do to override biology. Starting treatment at 10 or 11 seems to me to be quite different than starting treatment at 13 or 14. How many years of treatment are needed to alter the original biology?

 

My answer is I don't know, but I want to protect girls and women's sports and I also want clean competition (testosterone is a PED for both men and women).  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Options are either trans people use the restroom that matches their genitals (meaning trans men use women's bathroom, which opens up the ability for non trans men to SAY they are trans men and walk right in), use the restroom that matches their gender identity (meaning trans women use the women's bathroom, which allows men in who SAY they are trans women), or require all trans men and trans women to use a third or even third and fourth space, which you said you don't want to require. 

 

Which means either of the first two options do allow for men to scam the system. Which means there is no real point in using fear of men scamming the system to pick one over the other. 

 

There are options other than "self-ID", such as requiring people to use the restroom corresponding to whether they have M or F on their ID card. Which is fine if 1. one has an I.D. card, and 2. one can afford whatever hoops one's home jurisdiction requires to change said I.D. card. Given the high rate of poverty among trans people, especially trans women, especially trans people of color...that brings us to why "self-ID" is recommended in the first place. NOT to give entitled cisgender (probably white) men free reign to traipse into women's spaces because they feel like it, but to help vulnerable people be safe.

 

Which brings us to the point that no system is wholly proof from people who seek to transgress it to do others harm, so framing the system in a way that deliberately harms and excludes the most vulnerable is the more problematic way to go.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is it that you recommend, then? Honestly asking. I lost a few siblings over my son being transgender but none of them could answer the question of what we should of done. And it needs to be something we weren't already doing. Can you really not see that sometimes the only thing to do would be to let them transition?

Are we talking about young children or teens ? There's no definitive research on teens yet.

 

For children, watchful waiting with mental health support till early-mid teens. Many will desist. Those who don't desist - hormones followed by surgery as adults, because for some people with childhood onset gender dysphoria, transition is the best solution to their persistent sense of being 'wrong bodied'.

 

Puberty blocking is partially about ensuring a greater ability to 'pass', and - well - some transpeople consider the concept of 'passing' transphobic in itself. Of course, the other justification is relief of distress. That's always going to be a case by case decision, weighing the risks against the benefits.

 

I'm kinda glad for your son he did get to go through puberty, and avoided the nasty side effects of blocker, even though I am sure it was difficult for him at the time.

 

I hope you can see that I'm not disagreeing with you. Yes, sometimes people have to go through transition because it is the best option for them.

Edited by StellaM
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"are all those against self ID against people like my son" ?

 

I'm against self ID. I'm not against your son.

 

It's not my criteria, lol, it's the UK government's. Yes, I think that two years full time after the age of 18 plus diagnosis is a fairly moderate stance, far more moderate than requiring SRS. I'm not entirely happy about my state having that rule. People shouldn't be coerced into surgery.

 You're a bit behind on the standards in the UK:

 

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Transwomen breastfeed now, get with the times!

 

(Recent case study I'm too lazy to go find, transwoman breasfed for 8 weeks before weaning, unclear whether they also supplemented, and baby's weight etc. Self report).

 

The one I found, she exclusively nursed the baby for 6 weeks before she began supplementing with formula. Didn't say anything about when they weaned.

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2161151-transgender-woman-is-first-to-be-able-to-breastfeed-her-baby/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well...there's curling, which has coed teams...and the couples figure skating. There are sports they could structure as coed, if they balanced teams...they could do that with a number of winter sports with small teams (bobsled comes to mind), or anything with relays. Equestrian is the rare sport where being compact/small is an actual advantage.

 Curling also has women's teams and men's teams. Coed teams are pretty limited in application. And co-ed teams are not the same as a single-sex team and do not have the same value to many, many women and girls.

 

My own personal concern is sports such as track and swimming. Size, speed, strength in individual sports-men and women are not equal and competing together will eliminate nearly all women athletes as contenders. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The one I found, she exclusively nursed the baby for 6 weeks before she began supplementing with formula. Didn't say anything about when they weaned.

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2161151-transgender-woman-is-first-to-be-able-to-breastfeed-her-baby/

Yeah, I dunno if that's the same. It was self reported, so I'll wait for more reliable studies to come out.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is it that you recommend, then? Honestly asking. I lost a few siblings over my son being transgender but none of them could answer the question of what we should of done. And it needs to be something we weren't already doing. Can you really not see that sometimes the only thing to do would be to let them transition?

I agree that sometimes transition is the only option. Again, I'm not commenting on your child because I don't think it's appropriate and I obviously don't know the whole situation.

 

As a feminist, I recommend getting rid of gender cages so that femme men and masculine women are normal and accepted.

 

As I understand it the recommendation is to allow cross gender behaviours while encouraging connection/acceptance of their physical body and therapy. Telling children the truth that they cannot change their sex. Until natural puberty's effects on brain maturation at least. Adults and older teens who persist should have access to the most helpful treatment - which in some cases would be medical transition.

 

I'm concerned about this industry exploding, I'm concerned about 1000% rises in referrals. I'm concerned about blocking puberty having an effect on brain maturity. I'm concerned about teenagers ending up sterilized. I'm concerned about no alternative treatments being available to people for whom medical transition is contraindicated.

 

I also recommend listening to desisters and what helped them. But they get no platformed from places like the Philadelphia Trans Health Conference- but they're happy to host trans porn stars...

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that sometimes transition is the only option. Again, I'm not commenting on your child because I don't think it's appropriate and I obviously don't know the whole situation.

 

As a feminist, I recommend getting rid of gender cages so that femme men and masculine women are normal and accepted.

 

As I understand it the recommendation is to allow cross gender behaviours while encouraging connection/acceptance of their physical body and therapy. Telling children the truth that they cannot change their sex. Until natural puberty's effects on brain maturation at least. Adults and older teens who persist should have access to the most helpful treatment - which in some cases would be medical transition.

 

I'm concerned about this industry exploding, I'm concerned about 1000% rises in referrals. I'm concerned about blocking puberty having an effect on brain maturity. I'm concerned about teenagers ending up sterilized. I'm concerned about no alternative treatments being available to people for whom medical transition is contraindicated.

 

I also recommend listening to desisters and what helped them. But they get no platformed from places like the Philadelphia Trans Health Conference- but they're happy to host trans porn stars...

smh at the leaps that are made to get from 'is there value in single sex spaces anymore' to 'you deny the existence of trans people and think no-one should ever, in any circumstance, transition'.

 

Obviously transpeople exist, and equally obviously, transition is an answer to distress for some people.

 

Were those things ever up for debate? No.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One strange thing I have noticed in stories about transwomen is how many times I have heard stuff about not liking pink.  I was not a big fan of pink and neither are my daughters.  I speicifically did not dress my kids in sex specific colors because I don't believe in that at all.  Who says that blue is a boy's color?  Pink used to be a boy's color a long time ago.  I feel like I have falled down a rabbits hole aka Alice in Wonderland.  I was reading one article and it was discussing how if you don't like pink and aren't in to fashion and shopping, how you may actually be a different gender. What poppycock!  Men can knit , watch musicals and bake and still be men.  Women can like football, do woodworking and like to grill and still be women.  I never dconsidered myself a feminist, per se, but more a person who wanted sec stereotypes to disappear.  But I wake up from my dream to see hormones and confusing people. Are there still tranvestites who take on the appearance of their sex in normal circumstances but dress up as the opposite sex for sexual purposes?

 

 Being transgender is about a heck of a lot more than just what culturally-assigned 'stuff' you like. I didn't stop enjoying historical costuming just because I transitioned. I never did like pink, but my DS does and that doesn't make him a girl. Which is where the analysis of a distinction between gender identity (the expression of biological sex in the brain, how one intrinsically knows one's gender) and gender (the cultural construct) comes in. They aren't the same thing. 

Edited by Ravin
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, Ravin, I want to read your post, but please don't mansplain 'cis' to me. It's not language I identify with, I'm not planning on using it anytime soon, and I'm gonna skip over that paragraph, OK?

 

 

  :lol: Color me amused that I'm apparently enough of a man to "mainsplain" something to you, vagina notwithstanding.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think anyone who explains it in those terms is either dumb or speaking down to people because it definitely has nothing to do with color preferences.

 

Off topic: I am OUT OF LIKES.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What does "the expression of biological sex in the brain" mean Ravin?

 

That's not snarky or gotcha, I'm genuinely struggling to conceptualize it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please clarify for me and others why you do not want to be called cisgender. Is it because you do not like the label or because you do not identify as the gender that matches your sex?

 

I think it's because she rejects the language transgender people have developed around these issues to talk about them. They don't fit her worldview.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sigh. I know I'm a female because I have female biology, not because I have a part of my brain specifically dedicated to telling me so. Crudely, I'm in possession of a vulva, and that indicated to my mother my reproductive class, which she communicated to me with the word 'girl'. I know I'm a woman because a woman is an adult human female, and I was a girl, and then I grew up.

 

The science, such as it is, suggesting we have a part of the brain that causes us to perceive gender, is unsettled at best.

Edited by StellaM
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who do you feel is saying or implying or even thinking that transgender people don't have the right to merely exist?  Or are you saying that a discussion of whether or not sex-segregated spaces are needed threatens the right of transgender people to exist?  I'm not trying to be antagonistic, and I hope I'm not being obtuse, but I genuinely don't understand what you're saying here.

 

Anyone on this thread (including Sadie) who has insisted that transgender women do not belong in women's spaces, but that they "don't care" what trans men do in men's spaces, is effectively denying the identities of transgender women and wishing they would just go away, without much caring where.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know a young trans person who said that he liked science too much to be a girl.

 

That made me very sad, and I have absolutely no idea how to address it in a non-harmful way.

 

How's this: yo, kid, whether or not you like science has nothing to do with gender.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:lol: Color me amused that I'm apparently enough of a man to "mainsplain" something to you, vagina notwithstanding.

Well, until you aggressively inquired into my parenting, I had a lot of respect for you, and so I've had no issue with considering you as man.

 

That includes calling out mansplaining.

Edited by StellaM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not just that I don't like the label cis.

Cis means that my gender identity agrees with my assigned sex.

 

I don't believe that I was assigned a sex. Sex is observed based on how my chromosomes inform my physical development.

 

I don't understand what it is to have a gender identity. I have a personality.

 

Even if I did have a gender identity, I don't know what an 'agrees with assigned female gender identity' would entail. I don't really identify with traditional femininity.

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All sex segregation is bigotry?

 

Insisting on sex segregation when gender segregation is what will actually make the vast majority of people comfortable (as long as they don't--gasp!--see a penis somehow) is bigotry. Especially when one very clearly holds a double standard that guards "women's spaces" against "invasion" by transgender women while cheerfully "allowing" transgender men to do as they please (especially if they do it in the men's).

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone on this thread (including Sadie) who has insisted that transgender women do not belong in women's spaces, but that they "don't care" what trans men do in men's spaces, is effectively denying the identities of transgender women and wishing they would just go away, without much caring where.

Actually, that's an incorrect summary of what I've said.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Insisting on sex segregation when gender segregation is what will actually make the vast majority of people comfortable (as long as they don't--gasp!--see a penis somehow) is bigotry. Especially when one very clearly holds a double standard that guards "women's spaces" against "invasion" by transgender women while cheerfully "allowing" transgender men to do as they please (especially if they do it in the men's).

Well yes, if one denies there are differences in risk to others between the sexes, I can quite see how you arrive at this.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Insisting on sex segregation when gender segregation is what will actually make the vast majority of people comfortable (as long as they don't--gasp!--see a penis somehow) is bigotry. Especially when one very clearly holds a double standard that guards "women's spaces" against "invasion" by transgender women while cheerfully "allowing" transgender men to do as they please (especially if they do it in the men's).

Say What?

That's hardly a forgone conclusion.

 

And you still haven't answered my questions about what gender actually is so how on earth can you make such a statement?

Edited by LMD
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that sometimes transition is the only option. Again, I'm not commenting on your child because I don't think it's appropriate and I obviously don't know the whole situation.

 

As a feminist, I recommend getting rid of gender cages so that femme men and masculine women are normal and accepted.

 

As I understand it the recommendation is to allow cross gender behaviours while encouraging connection/acceptance of their physical body and therapy. Telling children the truth that they cannot change their sex. Until natural puberty's effects on brain maturation at least. Adults and older teens who persist should have access to the most helpful treatment - which in some cases would be medical transition.

 

I'm concerned about this industry exploding, I'm concerned about 1000% rises in referrals. I'm concerned about blocking puberty having an effect on brain maturity. I'm concerned about teenagers ending up sterilized. I'm concerned about no alternative treatments being available to people for whom medical transition is contraindicated.

 

I also recommend listening to desisters and what helped them. But they get no platformed from places like the Philadelphia Trans Health Conference- but they're happy to host trans porn stars...

It's a real shame that James Caspian - I think from Bath University ? - who is an LBGT counsellor and academic, was prevented by the university from doing research into the experience of detransitioners, due to the university's desire to avoid becoming a target for activisits.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Putting man as 'man' when referring to Ravin was a low blow. I can comfort myself with the knowledge that every single feminist I know IRL is nothing like those posting here. 

 

I can also comfort myself with the fact that you can't really keep women who just happen to also be transgender out of your spaces without violating them, which is something you won't (and can't) do. 

 

I'm totally out of this now as I don't think anything good will come of this from here on. I've shared my opinions and my story and feel good about it. 

 

 

ETA:. I see Sadie edited the post after I posted but it was there and I'm out.

Edited by Joker
  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this thread has run its course. It's a shame no-one answered the question of 'why same gender segregation', or indeed, defined gender.

 

However, as the thread has become increasingly personal and aggressive, I'm going to ask for it to be locked now.

 

Please feel free to continue to post until that happens, or to take any unfinished issues to s/o threads.

 

Thank you.

Edited by StellaM
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Putting man as 'man' when referring to Ravin was a low blow. I can comfort myself with the knowledge that every single feminist I know IRL is nothing like those posting here. 

 

I can also comfort myself with the fact that you can't really keep women who just happen to also be transgender out of your spaces without violating them, which is something you won't (and can't) do. 

 

I'm totally out of this now as I don't think anything good will come of this from here on. I've shared my opinions and my story and feel good about it. 

 

 

ETA:. I see Sadie edited the post after I posted but it was there and I'm out.

Yeah, that was a mistake and I actually edited it before you post. It was to indicate the social construct 'man', but I realised on re-reading it could be taken the way you did.

However, frankly, it's a bit much for a couple of posters to claim the high ground given their posts.

 

I'm glad you feel good about sharing your story. I'm glad to have shared a gender critical perspective.

Edited by StellaM
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, until you aggressively inquired into my parenting, I had a lot of respect for you, and so I've had no issue with considering you as man.

 

That includes calling out mansplaining.

 

Your repeated gender-based attack lines are unacceptable. Using the term "mansplaining" is bigotry-pure and simple-yet you use it frequently.

 

Yuck!

 

TERFs are not "feminists." They are just left-wing bigots who are not better than the right-wing counterparts.

 

Bill

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your repeated gender-based attack lines are unacceptable. Using the term "mansplaining" is bigotry-pure and simple-yet you use it frequently.

 

Yuck!

 

TERFs are not "feminists." They are just left-wing bigots who are not better than the right-wing counterparts.

 

Bill

Lol. Says Mr. Mansplainer extraordinaire deciding which women are feminists!

 

Love how you managed to get your kick in riiiiiiight at the end of the thread rather than having an actual discussion.

 

Hear that cis-ladies. Unacceptable. Be nice!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, that was a mistake and I actually edited it before you post. It was to indicate the social construct 'man', but I realised on re-reading it could be taken the way you did.

However, frankly, it's a bit much for a couple of posters to claim the high ground given their posts.

 

I'm glad you feel good about sharing your story. I'm glad to have shared a gender critical perspective.

 

I also shared a very personal post earlier that had nothing to do with gender. My son hates his female body. It has everything to do with him having a female body. He would have rather killed himself than continue to be forced to live in it and be seen as a female. He is taking every step he can to get rid of it. That is a huge part of my story that I shared here. Nothing to do with gender as he still doesn't fall into line with male gender stereotypes. I do feel good about my story as it was honest and open and isn't looking to limit what anyone else is allowed to do. 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm asking the moderators to please not delete the entire thread as I feel there is useful information for others to be found in here. Please keep it if you feel you must lock it. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, thread's been reported to the mods now, so continue to talk if you want, but time's limited.

 

I've reported your posts. Enough with the gender-based attacks.

 

Seriously uncool.

 

Bill 

Edited by Spy Car

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are sounding like an MRA.

 

Sex does influence rates of sexual offending. Female sexed person offend much less often. It is simply denial of truth to call sex irrelevant.

 

(Cisgender) women in U.S. prisons are 3 times more likely to experience inmate-on-inmate sexual violence than (cisgender) men in men's prisons. They are also a great deal more likely to experience sexual violence perpetrated by (usually male) guards. LGBT people experience higher rates of violence than cisgender, heterosexual people in both settings. 

 

I do not argue that sex is irrelevant. What I'm saying is that it's not the only factor to consider in appropriate placement of transgender inmates in prisons or transgender patients in psych wards.

 

It does not take denial that women are at risk in prisons to recognize that transgender women are, as a subcategory of women, on the balance at least as much at risk. https://www.ovc.gov/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html

 

Earlier you posited, would I be ok with my DD be in a psych ward with a transgender girl? I said yes, and I will double down on that knowing that for such a girl, her chances of being helped in the gender-affirming setting outweigh the relatively slight risk that she might be more of a danger to my DD than the other mentally unbalanced girls on the ward (or, if my DD is in a psych ward, she likely is to herself).

 

I have a friend who has been hospitalized for mental health reasons several times. The best and most helpful experience she had of those times was the one time when, for space reasons, they stuck her in the veteran's wing, where most of the other patients were male. It was better appointed and she wasn't given a roommate who made noise that prevented her from sleeping.  The gender/sex of the other patients was the least of her concerns with the place.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've reported your posts. Enough with the gender-based attacks.

 

Seriously uncool.

 

Bill

Go away you nasty man.

 

Didn't LucyStoner say she'd shred anyone who used TERF?

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...