Math has become a battle

[smarson]

My DD9 is currently using Horizons Math 3 for her 3rd grade math program.  She gets the material, the actual MATH work isn't a struggle but for the life of her she cannot focus and get an assignment done in a reasonable amount of time.  As a result, she's convinced that she's terrible at math, a terrible student overall, etc. even though I try to reassure her that she DOES get it, she IS good at it, she's just simply struggling with focus issues.  I also have a 1st grader I'm using fairly heavy mom-time programs with so I just need her to get the work done and get it done independently.  

 

I'm using RS with the 1st grader and he loves it and she would really like to switch to it ( because anything would be better than Horizons for her right now) but I simply don't have enough of me to go around to sit with her for her work, then for his work, then for any family work or anything else we need to get done.  

 

All this to say, I feel like we just need to change things up for a bit (the rest of this school year) to get her confidence back and get our homeschool back on track.  

 

Really, math is not tough for her, she catches on quickly and is very good at it.  I think she just needs something different.  She LOVES Prodigy but it doesn't seem challenging enough (maybe that's my problem, I want her to be learning something from it).  I'm considering switching her to TT, though I'm not sure I'd love it given some of the things I've read about it here, or Beast.  I also have MM (up to 3) that I could print for her...

 

I thought TT would be fun, at the computer for her (she enjoys doing Prodigy on the computer and Dance Mat Typing).  Or Beast would be more interesting, in another format altogether, really, just to switch things up and make math fun(ish) again.  Or do I go super crazy and just do Fred?!  Gah!!!

 

I don't really know what I'm asking, I guess I'm just reaching out to those of you who have been there/done that.  I'm extremely frustrated with our homeschool right now but maybe that's just February/March speaking?  Or the fact that it's tax season and I'm a CPA?  Or the fact that I have a 20 month toddler who interferes with everything school?  Probably all of it.  I'm frustrated and I just want to quit.  But I feel like this math thing is low-hanging fruit that I CAN control/change relatively easily.  Bleh.

[Mommyof1]

Maybe flash cards of the 4 basic operations. This way she reviews/memorize them alone then maybe she can give herself a time test.

 

If she reads well by herself Bedtime Math?

[Mommyof1]

I just looked at what they teach on Horizon 3. I guess she is WAY past the basic 4.

 

I've got a preschooler and when I was in 3rd grade we were taught multiplication and review of add/sub.

 

Things have changed.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Mommyof1

[Lang Syne Boardie]

My DD9 is currently using Horizons Math 3 for her 3rd grade math program. She gets the material, the actual MATH work isn't a struggle but for the life of her she cannot focus and get an assignment done in a reasonable amount of time. As a result, she's convinced that she's terrible at math, a terrible student overall, etc. even though I try to reassure her that she DOES get it, she IS good at it, she's just simply struggling with focus issues. I also have a 1st grader I'm using fairly heavy mom-time programs with so I just need her to get the work done and get it done independently.

 

I'm using RS with the 1st grader and he loves it and she would really like to switch to it ( because anything would be better than Horizons for her right now) but I simply don't have enough of me to go around to sit with her for her work, then for his work, then for any family work or anything else we need to get done.

 

All this to say, I feel like we just need to change things up for a bit (the rest of this school year) to get her confidence back and get our homeschool back on track.

 

Really, math is not tough for her, she catches on quickly and is very good at it. I think she just needs something different. She LOVES Prodigy but it doesn't seem challenging enough (maybe that's my problem, I want her to be learning something from it). I'm considering switching her to TT, though I'm not sure I'd love it given some of the things I've read about it here, or Beast. I also have MM (up to 3) that I could print for her...

 

I thought TT would be fun, at the computer for her (she enjoys doing Prodigy on the computer and Dance Mat Typing). Or Beast would be more interesting, in another format altogether, really, just to switch things up and make math fun(ish) again. Or do I go super crazy and just do Fred?! Gah!!!

 

I don't really know what I'm asking, I guess I'm just reaching out to those of you who have been there/done that. I'm extremely frustrated with our homeschool right now but maybe that's just February/March speaking? Or the fact that it's tax season and I'm a CPA? Or the fact that I have a 20 month toddler who interferes with everything school? Probably all of it. I'm frustrated and I just want to quit. But I feel like this math thing is low-hanging fruit that I CAN control/change relatively easily. Bleh.

"I just need her to get it done and do it independently."

 

This is a very common homeschooling mistake. Many elementary aged children really do need one on one interaction for math. Some children can be given a few problems, or even a page, to work on independently for awhile, but it's normal if they can't. Even in my mid century modern style third grade classroom, my teacher paced up and down the aisles while everyone worked on math. She made sure we were working, and interacted as needed; we were in a class but we knew that we had her full attention. Homeschool moms need to give full attention at such times, too.

 

It's less time and frustration for you, overall, if you'll sit with her and go through it problem by problem. And she is less likely to develop anxiety or refusal about math. Once she starts building confidence and stamina, you might move to being at the table but not doing every problem together (but checking each answer as she goes), to working a few practice problems together and then leaving her with a small set to do independently while you "step downstairs to do the laundry," - giving a reason why you are going and reassuring that you'll be right back, makes her think she's still got your attention, even though you are training her to go longer without feedback - and after some time, she will do a lot more independently.

 

For now, you probably have to teach.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Tibbie Dunbar

[MeaganS]

For my dd9 who is very distractable, I actually sat and scribed her math for almost 2 years. This worked well for a while but given this particular dd's issues, I ended up switching to TT recently. Math was harming our relationship and she was more and more convinced that she was horrible at it. She does have some biological challenges as well as ADHD that cannot be medicated for health reasons, so that exacerbated the problem. DD9 loves prodigy too, so I'm very active in assigning her problems on there that need extra practice.

 

If I were you, I'd choose the most straight and to the point program you can find that fulfills your educational goals. DD9 does way better with spiral than mastery because the problems change type a lot and it was less overwhelming. CLE worked pretty well for a long time, so I'd suggest that. Then I'd sit next to her and possibly even write for her. Often just scribing for my kids is enough to finish a page way faster and help re-set their frustration level. 

[SebastianCat]

Horizons is a tough program.   I have one child who thrived with Horizons and my other child hit a wall somewhere around the same age.

 

I would just bite the bullet and schedule to work with her for 20 minutes on math every day, and sit and work through the page WITH her.   At this point in the school year, it's probably not worth switching to a new curriculum, but I'd definitely consider switching it up for the next school year.   But I would also not require her to do every single problem on the page - let her pick half of each section, or you pick a problem, then she picks a problem, etc.   Try to make it fun, keep it short, and just get through the rest of the year.

[SoCal_Bear]

Just a few comments:

Prodigy is NOT intended to teach math. It's meant for math skills practice. So, don't expect her to learn anything new.

Beast Academy is fairly parent intensive. There is no way that she could use this independantly. It is also a curricula that intentionally wants students to be frustrated and learn to work through it. Fred is a nice supplement, but there is very little practice in there. 

I am also a CPA and yes, it is busy this time of year. I will gently suggest that perhaps during this season, you may not want to use your regular curriculum and use practice workbooks just to keep skills fresh but not introduce any new concepts. I will also agree that math at this age is rarely independant. However, it does not need to be super long lessons either. You also may want to consider whether or not a spiral program is a good fit or if she would do better with a mastery program.

[fralala]

I have a few thoughts, one of which is that it's perfectly fine to do games/relaxed math until after the end-of-winter-blahs/tax season pass. The situation with her brother's RS seems like it needs to be addressed, and looking for enticing ways to get around it might be setting yourself up for failure if the thing she is really after is time with you. Is it the curriculum that appeals, the fact that you are more hands-on during his math time, the games?

 

One more thing. I think it's really important not to invalidate the negative feelings your daughter is having about math, even though you're obviously trying to boost her self-esteem. If she's saying this is not a focus issue but an issue of not getting it and feeling stupid, telling her she's smart and that she's just having trouble focusing probably isn't helping you figure out the whole picture. (Does she need to know, for instance, that it's okay to struggle with math, and that actually "smart" and "stupid" aren't really words that apply to trying to understand math?)

 

There can be a lot of invisible things going on that look like trouble focusing. Some kids complain and say the work is boring, or too easy, or too hard, but no matter what they say, we have to probe a little because those words sometimes don't mean what we think they mean. And that probing makes my own kids frustrated and angry before things get better, so it means I have to be patient and willing to listen to all their bad feelings without trying to fix things right away. ("Okay, I hear you saying you're stupid. Let's look at problem #1, practicing measurement. What were you thinking when you saw this problem? Okay, let's move on to problem number two..." All the way to, "And when you finished this page, what did you think? What did that feel like?") If your child can actually figure out how to express what is going on during her struggles, listening to that is what is going to help make sure your next curriculum purchase isn't a huge waste of money!

 

My third grader still needs almost as much attention during math as my first grader, for what it's worth. And yes, this morning my toddler did flush a toy down the toilet while we were working. It's hard. Can't imagine also trying to work as a CPA during my only free moments. Maybe it's time for a well-deserved early spring break?

[smarson]

Do you sit with her while she does her math work, or does she sit by herself? 

 

Sometimes yes and sometimes no.  I'm trying to get her to work more independently and when I work with her I can see that she knows how to do everything.  I even assign only 1/2 of the problems often just to move it along when I know she understands/knows the concepts.  She would prefer me to sit with her to do the whole lesson.

[smarson]

"I just need her to get it done and do it independently."

 

This is a very common homeschooling mistake. Many elementary aged children really do need one on one interaction for math. Some children can be given a few problems, or even a page, to work on independently for awhile, but it's normal if they can't. Even in my mid century modern style third grade classroom, my teacher paced up and down the aisles while everyone worked on math. She made sure we were working, and interacted as needed; we were in a class but we knew that we had her full attention. Homeschool moms need to give full attention at such times, too.

 

It's less time and frustration for you, overall, if you'll sit with her and go through it problem by problem. And she is less likely to develop anxiety or refusal about math. Once she starts building confidence and stamina, you might move to being at the table but not doing every problem together (but checking each answer as she goes), to working a few practice problems together and then leaving her with a small set to do independently while you "step downstairs to do the laundry," - giving a reason why you are going and reassuring that you'll be right back, makes her think she's still got your attention, even though you are training her to go longer without feedback - and after some time, she will do a lot more independently.

 

For now, you probably have to teach.

 

Thank you for the feedback.  And you're completely right.  

[smarson]

Horizons is a tough program.   I have one child who thrived with Horizons and my other child hit a wall somewhere around the same age.

 

I would just bite the bullet and schedule to work with her for 20 minutes on math every day, and sit and work through the page WITH her.   At this point in the school year, it's probably not worth switching to a new curriculum, but I'd definitely consider switching it up for the next school year.   But I would also not require her to do every single problem on the page - let her pick half of each section, or you pick a problem, then she picks a problem, etc.   Try to make it fun, keep it short, and just get through the rest of the year.

 

Yes, I know it's a challenging program and I've read that often this is around the age - 3rd/4th - that kids hit a wall with it.  I think it's one of these years where the authors changed and the program changed a bit too.  I haven't seen 3rd as much different than 2nd but it IS quite a bit more work. 

 

I do usually only make her do about 1/2 of the problems (unless there are only 4 to begin with) :) so it isn't so overwhelming. 

 

Perhaps I've just been expecting too much.  

[quietchapel]

I agree with the suggestion to use review workbooks during tax season. I can't imagine trying to do all of that.

 

But, I want to share a word of caution based on my own experience. When mine were roughly those ages, we had a lot of life transitions going on, and I did not consistently teach math. I wanted something my dd could just do on her own. I really regret that; it caused many problems that we are still fixing.

 

Math is one subject that needs to be taught. I am still working for twenty minutes each day with each child teaching their math lesson, and I don't anticipate that changing. I hope you find some short term solutions to alleviate stress.

[smarson]

I have a few thoughts, one of which is that it's perfectly fine to do games/relaxed math until after the end-of-winter-blahs/tax season pass. The situation with her brother's RS seems like it needs to be addressed, and looking for enticing ways to get around it might be setting yourself up for failure if the thing she is really after is time with you. Is it the curriculum that appeals, the fact that you are more hands-on during his math time, the games?

 

One more thing. I think it's really important not to invalidate the negative feelings your daughter is having about math, even though you're obviously trying to boost her self-esteem. If she's saying this is not a focus issue but an issue of not getting it and feeling stupid, telling her she's smart and that she's just having trouble focusing probably isn't helping you figure out the whole picture. (Does she need to know, for instance, that it's okay to struggle with math, and that actually "smart" and "stupid" aren't really words that apply to trying to understand math?)

 

There can be a lot of invisible things going on that look like trouble focusing. Some kids complain and say the work is boring, or too easy, or too hard, but no matter what they say, we have to probe a little because those words sometimes don't mean what we think they mean. And that probing makes my own kids frustrated and angry before things get better, so it means I have to be patient and willing to listen to all their bad feelings without trying to fix things right away. ("Okay, I hear you saying you're stupid. Let's look at problem #1, practicing measurement. What were you thinking when you saw this problem? Okay, let's move on to problem number two..." All the way to, "And when you finished this page, what did you think? What did that feel like?") If your child can actually figure out how to express what is going on during her struggles, listening to that is what is going to help make sure your next curriculum purchase isn't a huge waste of money!

 

My third grader still needs almost as much attention during math as my first grader, for what it's worth. And yes, this morning my toddler did flush a toy down the toilet while we were working. It's hard. Can't imagine also trying to work as a CPA during my only free moments. Maybe it's time for a well-deserved early spring break?

 

RS looks fun to her.  When we were all sitting at the table doing math together she would often get distracted watching and listening to us because RS is just so different than Horizons.  My thoughts are that she would actually do very well switching to RS for next year.  But the thought of sitting with her for math and writing, with her next brother for LOE and Math, then her 2nd brother for LOE and whatever math we do for K, and then whatever we add in for history, science, etc makes my head spin.  I often have tried to include her when we play games because they can spur each other on and the idea of them playing games without me?  Fantastic!

 

I think she knows she's struggling to focus and that's something we're looking into.  She does get it.  She just sits and stares at it and starts drifting off thinking about who knows what.  Good point on getting her to express why she's struggling.  I can work on that.  

 

Looks like I'm probably expecting too much from her, asking her to try to work alone.  I can change that.

 

Last year we basically took an extended 1 month Spring Break during tax season so I could get caught up on tax returns.  Looks like this might be happening again this year. :)  I guess that's a perk to homeschooling - we can choose when to break! :)

[eternalsummer]

I have a DD who is highly gifted, self-motivated, has great executive function, and is compliant and willing to "do school."

 

She started being able to do math without my fairly constant participation at around 6th/7th grade.  

 

In 3rd, no way.