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Math for dyslexic/dygraphic son


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I'm looking for math for him to start in the fall as a 7th grader.  We did Rightstart through E in 4th grade.  Then we floundered a bit bc we were needing to put lots of time into getting him reading.  He is now reading close to grade level though we are still working a lot on the dysgraphia.  even in his math work he makes mistakes bc he often can't read his own writing.  We ended up using Khan for 5th and Mathematical Reasoning for 6th. I asked him for 7th if he preferred a workbook approach or a video approach. He prefers the workbook approach and I'm assuming it's because he likes for me to sit with him to review the concept and help him while he works bc of the writing difficulties.  I will have 3 younger children so I was leaning video hoping to move him towards independent work.  I'm comfortable teaching math up through pre-calc so that isn't an issue. I have looked at horizons for pre-algebra 7th but not sure where we would go after that for highschool.  I was strongly considering MUS but I have no experience with it.  I am not interested in Saxon! My current 9th grader is using ALEKS, which I like a lot, but I wish it had video instruction. If I'm going to be doing the instructing I don't want to be doing it over his shoulder looking at a computer screen.  I'm also not interested in TT bc in our experience it doesn't offer enough practice problems if a student doesn't grasp the concept quickly.  

 

So - given ALL that - do you have any recs for me for math for this student.  I would really like a program we can stick with through highschool.

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I'd separate the math from the reading and writing. It sounds like you're floundering and not teaching math because you are putting your efforts elsewhere (as expected). However, it doesn't sound like he can do the math on his own.

 

I had a dyslexic/dygraphic math dude that I did everything orally with. We did math buddy style with me writing and scribing until calculus. Before this, he typed out some proofs, but the first show-your-work problems he ever wrote out were in calculus, and still did most of it in his head. He's now a double major in college with math being one of them.

 

I know my son is unusual in his math ability, but I'd encourage you to back up and teach the math. If his foundation is not strong, he'll flounder through high school math. Teaching the skills to read and or write the math can be separated out from the math understanding. It all has to be taught, but might need to be piecewise.

 

Given what you describe your looking for - you might look at Derek Owens. All the teaching is video. The student is expected to take notes on outlines provided. There is plenty of practice/homework. You would also have the option of paying half-price and doing all the grading yourself. This would allow you to go at your own pace and choose whether he writes the problems or does it orally or any other way.

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Has anyone used CTC math for high school levels?  I'm wondering if it's thorough enough to be considered a full curriculum.

 

I believe OneStepAtATime has used CTC as a supplement. You could PM her with questions. She may not see the question within this thread.

 

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I believe OneStepAtATime has used CTC as a supplement. You could PM her with questions. She may not see the question within this thread.

 

There must be a psychic connection, LOL.  I only had a moment and happened to pop into this thread or I would definitely have missed the question.

 

 

As for OP, we are currently using CTC as a supplement.  I like the program for a lot of reasons (if I can find old reviews I typed up I will post a link) but for a struggling student I would not make CTC the main system used.  At least with my non-NT kiddos they need different approaches and me staying on top of where they are at to see where other materials need to be brought in.  It is a really good program, though.

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O.k. below is the review I posted on the Master List of On-Line classes pinned thread on Gen Ed (edited for pertinence)

 

CTC MATH

 

Similar to Khan Academy in that the instruction is pre-recorded.  Usually available at a very discounted rate through Homeschool Buyer's Co-op.

 

Pros:

  • Student has access to all math lessons from Kindergarten through Calculus.
  • The parent (or even the student) can make the program work as a mastery based or spiral based or both mastery and spiral based program with just a little extra work on the parent's part.
  • Lessons at each level are consistently organized so if you want to work on one specific skill/concept/algorithm it is easy to move as far back or as far forward as you need.
  • Video lessons use clear graphics that are usually easy to follow.
  • All lessons also give the student/teacher the ability to print out a paper copy summarizing the lesson, including the visual graphics, as well as worksheets to do that are similar to the on-line problems. (Start a math notebook and keep these papers organized in that notebook for helpful quick reference).
  • A teacher can set up multiple students to use the system, each with their own username and password.  Even the teacher can have their own where they can work on their own problems before tackling them with their student.
  • All work is tracked in multiple easy to follow ways so the parent can easily log on and see which lessons were done, when they were done, how well the student did,  if the student hasn't finished a lesson, etc..
  • Lessons can be repeated as many times as needed and new problems are continually generated so the student isn't just repeating the same problems over and over.
  • The parent can change what they consider a "pass mark" to determine when a student has truly finished a lesson to their satisfaction (it defaults at 80% correct).
  • The interface can be customized to the student's preferences for colors.
  • Lesson graphics are very clear and easy to follow.
  • Students can stop in the middle of a lesson and it will automatically start them back up where they left off when they log in again (previous work is not lost).
  • Parents can assign specific lessons/tasks.
  • There are diagnostic tests available.  You can choose between 20, 30, and 40 questions, depending on how comprehensive you want the test to be.
  • There are also separate speed skill exercises, times table practice, and games that can be done but they are not required and can be done separately from lessons.
  • The program issues certificates of completion for each category or "section" of lessons.  They are in three levels: Silver, Gold and Platinum.   A student can work hard to repeat lessons and improve their score.  Since lessons generate new problems each time they repeat this is actually great reinforcement instead of just getting good at repeating one particular problem.
  • The screen is not overly cluttered.
  • Lessons are not super long and tedious.  This means that you can assign more than one lesson per day.  In other words, you can customize the program to be mastery or spiral based, depending on what lessons you want your student to do each day.
  • It covers MANY math topics including statistics and probability and geometry even at the elementary level but you can choose to skip those topics until they are older if you wish.
  • It covers both analog and digital time.
  • If a student is struggling in one particular area it is very easy to step back multiple grade levels in that one area and quickly review and shore up any gaps before trying to move forward again.
  • Old scores can be deleted by the parent so the student can start fresh if needed. 

 

Cons:

  • Lessons don't always give a detailed enough explanation.
  • Sometimes the lesson focuses way less on the concept and way more on the algorithm.
  • All measurement besides time is in metric only (which is fine but since we live in a country that does not use only metric it would be nice to have reinforcement of Imperial measurement).
  • Sometimes the terms used are different from what we are used to since this program is based out of Australia.  It can lead to a bit of confusion.  Usually cleared up with a quick Google check.

 

Overall, the kids and I have been very happy with CTC math and they both asked me to renew our subscription when it expires in May.  We use it primarily as reinforcement for lessons they have through CLE and other resources but we also have relied on it as our spine with we are traveling or life gets a bit crazy.  It is great for quick review over any breaks as well.  It keeps concepts fresh.  DD especially loves the ability to move forwards and backwards in a particular topic.  For instance, she discovered that while she hates Algebra type problems, she loves Geometry.  She was able to just keep moving forward in Geometry lessons specifically until she hit an area that required higher level math from the Algebra side.  That inspired her to go back and shore up more math concepts in the areas she does not like.  Math is a very hard subject for DD.  Having her enthusiastically doing additional lessons has been a pleasant surprise.

 

DS is using CTC as his spine at the moment alongside additional work with a tutor.  He likes that he can log on and clearly see his progress and how far he has to go to finish the level he is on (Pre-Algebra).  He can also dabble in higher math whenever he feels like it, just to see what it is like.  He can also go back and review old material whenever he feels like it.

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One thing that is critical is separating the skills sets from the content learning.  Meaning if a student is struggling with decoding/fluency while reading then work on reading skills separately from input for learning content or even for math.  Read alouds/audio books/text to speech/documentaries/etc. are all useful tools and should be used across the board until reading skills are smooth enough and fast enough to shift the balance.

 

This goes for dysgraphia, too.  And there are different forms of dysgraphia.  If a student struggles with the physical act of writing (as in letter formation/spacing/etc.) then work on handwriting practice separately from output expectation.  Scribe for them.  Use speech to text software.  Teach them to type.

 

With regards to typing, it can take a long time to develop solid enough typing skills for it to be a useful mode of output but the skills can be life changing.  Sooner the better (if they aren't already learning), but use a systematic program that tracks progress while emphasizing accuracy NOT speed.  Speed will improve with time but accuracy is PARAMOUNT from the very beginning.  Typing feels WRONG to many dysgraphics.  It is HARD to learn.  However, if lessons are done daily, consistently and someone is there making sure the student has accurate finger placement, posture and finger pressure eventually things will start to gel and typing will become more automatic.  It may take a lot of time to build up muscle and procedural memory, though, and they may need a lot of encouragement.  Also, if they don't have their fingers in the right place every time, if their posture is poor, if they aren't putting proper pressure on each finger, it can take 1000 times longer to develop fluid typing skills.  Even with all of those things in place it might take years before typing is fluid enough and accurate enough and fast enough to be of any use for output but I guarantee it is a VERY useful and freeing skill for a dysgraphic.

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Final thought regarding math materials for a child that prefers a workbook plus has dysgraphia and dyslexia:

 

I would seriously consider CLE instead of CTC.  Or perhaps pair the two.  

 

CLE is a workbook with instructions explained directly to the student.  If you have the TM you could use example problems from there to teach the content initially and have him work in the workbook for the rest.  It reviews material a LOT so nothing is easily forgotten.  If he doesn't need all of that review just cross out some of the review problems.  They will definitely be reviewed again further down the road.

 

Also, you could read him the instructions for the new material that is presented in the workbook as he follows along so that he is hearing the instructions while also getting visual reinforcement.  Have him working near you so if he needs a question answered you can address it quickly, before he gets too confused.  Again, cut out any review problems he doesn't need (sometimes the lessons can get long). 

 

If you rely on CTC as his spine he is going to have to be able to not only independently read the problems on the screen but also copy those problems onto paper and work them on the paper then enter them accurately back onto the screen.  While some problems can be worked strictly on the screen, by Middle School/High School many problems will need to be worked on paper then entered.  That can be REALLY hard for a dysgraphic.  CLE already has the problems printed in the workbook and usually has quite a bit of white space.

 

You could give him the placement test for CLE and see how he does.   It is free to download.  I have linked it below.  There will be one for 100-400 series and one for 500 and above.  Print out the test and the answers.  I would recommend starting with at least the 400s, maybe the 300's, just to see if there are any gaps.  You may need to break it up into two sessions since the test can be long.  You want him focused not exhausted.  Don't get discouraged if he tests low in certain areas.  CLE introduces some concepts earlier than other programs.  The first workbook (light unit) of each level is review of the previous level so if he did well in most areas of, say, the 400s and the 500s but was weak in maybe geometry then you might be able to start him with 601 but go slowly through the geometry section and maybe use Khan Academy (or CTC if you choose that as a supplement) to shore up that area.

 

https://www.clp.org/store/by_grade/21

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Not sure this would fit your priorities at this point - and I can see that independent will be important to you both, but just thought I'd add this possibility:  

 

Beast Academy 5 or AOPS Pre-Algebra (same company).  

 

Beast Academy 5 is listed as 5th grade - but students go from it into Pre-Algebra or Algebra. There's a guide (written to the student) and practice book (which has hints and full explanations of all problem solutions - amazing!).  It might be used independently by your DS.  The guide is comic-book style with characters. Not baby-ish, but a 7th grader might love it or...not. I think the approach it uses might fit with what little I know of RightStart...

 

AOPS Pre-Algebra has textbook/workbook and also an online class option.  Their online classes offered go all the way through Calculus. 

 

I don't have direct experience with AOPS.  My DS 10 (dyslexic) is doing Beast Academy 3 and we both love it!  He does little writing and we work together orally a lot for math - but I appreciate your concern for independent work (a goal of mine for my kiddo, too...eventually).   

 

BTW - hope you don't mind if I say "Kudos!" to you both for getting his reading to "grade level"!!! 

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I'd separate the math from the reading and writing. It sounds like you're floundering and not teaching math because you are putting your efforts elsewhere (as expected). However, it doesn't sound like he can do the math on his own.

 

I had a dyslexic/dygraphic math dude that I did everything orally with. We did math buddy style with me writing and scribing until calculus. Before this, he typed out some proofs, but the first show-your-work problems he ever wrote out were in calculus, and still did most of it in his head. He's now a double major in college with math being one of them.

 

I know my son is unusual in his math ability, but I'd encourage you to back up and teach the math. If his foundation is not strong, he'll flounder through high school math. Teaching the skills to read and or write the math can be separated out from the math understanding. It all has to be taught, but might need to be piecewise.

 

Given what you describe your looking for - you might look at Derek Owens. All the teaching is video. The student is expected to take notes on outlines provided. There is plenty of practice/homework. You would also have the option of paying half-price and doing all the grading yourself. This would allow you to go at your own pace and choose whether he writes the problems or does it orally or any other way.

We did flounder for a few months after Right Start just trying to find a good program that worked for him, but I am most certainly teaching the math.  He completed the full 5th grade Khan program last year and is completing Mathematical Reasoning grade 6 this year. We do it all partner style as you are describing.  I sit with him to explain the lesson and check his work as he goes to prevent mistakes.

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There must be a psychic connection, LOL.  I only had a moment and happened to pop into this thread or I would definitely have missed the question.

 

 

As for OP, we are currently using CTC as a supplement.  I like the program for a lot of reasons (if I can find old reviews I typed up I will post a link) but for a struggling student I would not make CTC the main system used.  At least with my non-NT kiddos they need different approaches and me staying on top of where they are at to see where other materials need to be brought in.  It is a really good program, though.

He is not struggling in math, just needs me to sit with him to review the directions/instructions and prevent him from making errors of not being able to read his own writing.  He is actually quite good at math and grasps the concepts quickly. Not genius or anything but strong in math.

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One thing that is critical is separating the skills sets from the content learning.  Meaning if a student is struggling with decoding/fluency while reading then work on reading skills separately from input for learning content or even for math.  Read alouds/audio books/text to speech/documentaries/etc. are all useful tools and should be used across the board until reading skills are smooth enough and fast enough to shift the balance.

 

This goes for dysgraphia, too.  And there are different forms of dysgraphia.  If a student struggles with the physical act of writing (as in letter formation/spacing/etc.) then work on handwriting practice separately from output expectation.  Scribe for them.  Use speech to text software.  Teach them to type.

 

With regards to typing, it can take a long time to develop solid enough typing skills for it to be a useful mode of output but the skills can be life changing.  Sooner the better (if they aren't already learning), but use a systematic program that tracks progress while emphasizing accuracy NOT speed.  Speed will improve with time but accuracy is PARAMOUNT from the very beginning.  Typing feels WRONG to many dysgraphics.  It is HARD to learn.  However, if lessons are done daily, consistently and someone is there making sure the student has accurate finger placement, posture and finger pressure eventually things will start to gel and typing will become more automatic.  It may take a lot of time to build up muscle and procedural memory, though, and they may need a lot of encouragement.  Also, if they don't have their fingers in the right place every time, if their posture is poor, if they aren't putting proper pressure on each finger, it can take 1000 times longer to develop fluid typing skills.  Even with all of those things in place it might take years before typing is fluid enough and accurate enough and fast enough to be of any use for output but I guarantee it is a VERY useful and freeing skill for a dysgraphic.

Yes, we are doing all of these things. 

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He is not struggling in math, just needs me to sit with him to review the directions/instructions and prevent him from making errors of not being able to read his own writing.  He is actually quite good at math and grasps the concepts quickly. Not genius or anything but strong in math.

 

Well, what I mainly meant was that based on your posts it appears your son is struggling with accurately decoding all of the math instructions (at least that was what it seemed to me you were saying) and with getting everything written correctly because of the dysgraphia. 

 

I apologize but I am struggling with horrific allergies right now so I probably didn't word it very well but what I was trying to say was that for my dysgraphic son he still needed a lot of scaffolding at that age even though he gets the math concepts.   Apparently my son is similar to your son in where the breakdown is occuring.  DS is reading at grade level but sometimes glitches when reading instructions for math problems.  DS also struggles to accurately copy down math problems and may make errors strictly because of the dysgraphia, not a lack of understanding of the material.  That seemed to be what your son was also struggling with but perhaps I misunderstood.

 

CTC is pretty good (not great as a spine for High School but usable IMHO) but my DS still sometimes needed me to scribe for him off and on for a very long time (and sometimes still does) and to read the instructions with him sometimes to make sure he is getting the material instead of getting bogged down in the decoding and the writing. 

 

DS has done better when we have used CTC combined with CLE and Beast (although we are no longer using Beast).  We also sometimes use the Key to... series of workbooks for extra reinforcement of fractions/decimals/percents.  Not all of any of those but a combination of parts of those has really worked better.  Beast gave him some interesting "meat" for his brain to chew on, CTC gave him visuals that he could connect with and sometimes do without me having to read it all to him or write it all down for him plus he loves being able to move up and down the material and then CLE provided a lot of useful review in a readable format that allowed him to do some work without me (the review sections).

 

Since it sounds like trying to weave multiple programs isn't feasible for you with other kids in the mix you might try CTC as a spine.  I know there are others that have used it as such and felt it worked well.  I think it has a trial version?  You can set up lessons so that he returns to previous concepts upon occasion for review.  He may struggle, though, when it is necessary to write out the math problems, solve them on paper, then accurately type them back into the system.  Maybe get him set up with quad paper to help with lining things up or have him use the program geodob mentioned up thread to help with math writing.

 

Yes, we are doing all of these things. 

Awesome.

 

Good luck. Hope you find what works.

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My dyslexic/dysgraphic ds loves thinkwell.  Instruction is given in prerecorded videos, and then there are nine multiple choice questions to answer.  When he needs to work through a problem he uses a whiteboard and then chooses the correct answer.  There is no reading necessary, but there are transcripts available if you need to review or find a formula.

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Specifically for dysgraphia and dyslexia issues for my son, MUS was probably the best program we used, and now several years in retrospect, he is very, very strong on all skills he learned via MUS.  The combo of workbooks with clear type and plenty of white space and the video lessons was excellent.   My ds often worked on the non-word problems on his own, and saved the word problems for when I could read through them with him.   --.......................--

 

My ds got "bored" by MUS and moved on to other programs, and now has whatever his brick and mortar school uses (which I'll mention below).  In retropect I think we maybe should have just stuck with MUS as long as he homeschooled.  While some programs are more "mathy," for a child who is not necessarily going to be a physicist or math major, I'm not sure that those more "mathy" programs are needed.  Especially important with MUS is to understand that you do not need him to do ALL the practice pages, just as many (or few) as he needs to learn the topic.  When it is learned, move on.  And if you pace it by a certain amount of time per day on math he may be able to do more than one MUS book in a year and thus move through the needed subject matter earlier and have a year or 2 for more intense math if he does turn out to want to go into a more "mathy" field.  If not, it is certainly enough for life.  --................................--  If the Mathematical Reasoning you're doing is Critical Thinking Company book by that name, know that MUS is not as "fun" with puzzles and so on, but it is very good.  MR also has significant strengths, and number of skills from Critical Thinking Company proved very helpful in Algebra when I would remind ds that he had seen such and such type of problem before as a balance bender or other such problem.

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[it held a paragraph space!!!... sorry OP, but I've had posting trouble and this is very exciting!]

 

My ds is now using a series in b&m school that resembles the standard school textbooks I had for middle and high school math. But it is in workbook form, and often (though not always) there is enough room to work in the book which is helpful for dyslexia/dysgraphia.  Publisher  is Houghton Mifflin Harcourt.  An ISBN for the Calif. teacher ed of his Geometry is 978-0-544-38587-0.  That might allow you to find student and teacher editions of the books down to pre-algebra or however far down they go.  We are in Oregon and my son's school does not use Calif ed., but I found one used online and got it to be able to help him when needed, and it is close enough to his school text that I can follow along.  TBH I kind of like the Calif CC comments in the margins.  The student texts were available from Amazon and not terribly expensive as textbooks go, as I recall.  I don't know if all have same author group, but his Geometry is Kanold, Burger, Dixon, Larson, Leinwand.

 

One girl in ds's class last year was self-teaching at her own (faster than the class) pace using the books plus Khan Academy videos. But in general this book series IMO certainly needs a teacher to present the lesson, esp for a student with dyslexia as the text is fairly dense.  But if that works okay for you, then it is a quite complete, fairly traditional HS sequence, and goes ...   not sure the right word ... but into MORE and harder math than in MUS afaik.  Though it is still not  AoPS.  If any dyscalculia, it would not be a good choice and the easier math classes at his school use something else.  

 

The workbook system for a traditional text is nice in so far as my son does not make a ton of mistakes or get tired out just by having to rewrite all the problems onto another piece of paper.  The format has made a typical one-year math subject take two very heavy big consumable workbooks each over 500 pages.  The index is a bit wonky as it refers to module and lesson number rather than page number, but we are getting used to it.  I like that Algebra and Geometry include some statistics in an easier form than an actual statistics class.  His teacher chooses problems to do and problems to skip.  They also have online quizzes, and online problems (with solutions and sometimes hints) which I think a homeschooler might not have access to--I gather the school pays a license fee for the whole program.

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Since it sounds like trying to weave multiple programs isn't feasible for you with other kids in the mix you might try CTC as a spine.  I know there are others that have used it as such and felt it worked well.  I think it has a trial version?  You can set up lessons so that he returns to previous concepts upon occasion for review.  He may struggle, though, when it is necessary to write out the math problems, solve them on paper, then accurately type them back into the system.  Maybe get him set up with quad paper to help with lining things up or have him use the program geodob mentioned up thread to help with math writing.

 

 

Yes, weaving different programs together would probably prove to be difficult due to time constraints with a large family.  Thank you for your responses - they have been very helpful!

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