Pen Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 You could also look at this: http://www.highnoonbooks.com/detailHNB.tpl?action=search&cart=15195086071840419&eqskudatarq=8476-1&eqTitledatarq=Sound Out City Secrets&eqvendordatarq=ATP&bobby=[bobby]&bob=[bob]&TBL=[tbl] click on the "chapter samples" and see if your son can read at this level with automaticity and fluency 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 24, 2018 Author Share Posted February 24, 2018 In a previous post, I gave you a copy from an invoice of the main components we used so that you would have the exact product numbers available. I have only slow dial-up and cannot quickly find and link you direct links. The general site is www.highnoonbooks.com I believe. SP-8125-8 Sound Out Chapter Books - Set Special-Discounted Pricing on the Sound Out Collection6 sets of readers A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2 (1 copy of each set)(Does not include workbooks) 1 $119.95 $119.95 8266-1 High Noon Reading-Level 1-Student Book 1 $15.00 $15.00 8268-8 High Noon Reading-Level 1-Workbook 1 $8.00 $8.00 8265-3 High Noon Reading-Level 1-Teacher's Guide (336 pp.) 1 $55.00 $55.00 The main program with the Student, Teacher, and Workbook was more incremental than the Sound Out Books were. For example, as best I now recall, each vowel pair would get its own lesson in the main program, but then several types would be grouped in a Sound Out Chapter Book next level. eg. as I recall, first level of Sound Outs already had all the CVC pattern words, I cannot recall when all the vowel pair ones were introduced, but by the 6th and highest Sound Out level they were all there along with multi-syllabic words. Since I think A1 was CVC, your son would not need that unless it was less expensive to get the set as a whole. They were nice on phone, and someone could probably tell you what set fits with the level of vowel pairs he cannot yet read with easy automaticity. correction: A1 had 3 books of CVC, but also 3 books that included vowel pairs, so he might actually need that after all. There are 6 books at each level--so less than $4 per book for the whole discounted set. Or less than $5 per each book if purchased set by set individually (6 books for $26). Let me know if you want more info. Here's a googled current link: HNB: High Noon Reading-Level 1 - High Noon Books www.highnoonbooks.com/detailHNB.tpl?eqskudatarq=S8271-8 ‎ Components (Sold Separately). Item No. Description. Price . QTY.8265-3. Teacher's Guide (336 pp.) $55.00. 8266-1. Student Book. $15.00. 8268-8. Workbook. $8.00. Accessories (Sold Separately). Item No. Description. Thank you. I didn’t realize that was the full program. Appreciate you reposting! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caedmyn Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 You might look into something called Toe by Toe. I have heard that it's fairly boring but works very well for some kids, and much quicker than Barton. I'm a little confused too...are you concerned that he doesn't read as well as you think he should be able to for the point he's at in Barton, or that he WON'T read even though he is capable of successfully reading? Do you allow him to read anything he wants? I couldn't tell from your OP whether you thought he shouldn't be reading independently at this point in Barton. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 So I'm not sure High Noon is the easiest thing to guess at context. In the attempt to make them easy to read with simpler vocabulary and sentences they come out kind of unnatural in my opinion. My son has a couple sets of books and though they did their best and are ok for readers they still are stilted and odd because the limits placed on them. The same with Barton readers but that's less important if you can actually decode the word. If the language is something they hear spoken all the time then the next word will come out naturally without even looking that close. If the language or grammar isn't something they hear constantly why would they guess correctly? I'm curious if he reads fluently or semi easily through the actual Barton stories. My guess is that IF he can read about the congressman on the balcony during a presidential election or whatever then it is working. It actually surprises me that so many say their kids can read a bunch of books by levels 4 and 5 since there is so much left to learn. Maybe we had a tougher case. My son started reading real books later (near the end of 6)and yet he can read most everything now (started but didn't complete 8) and his spelling is great too and we aren't sure whether to complete 8. Considering how well he does with his spelling now I might just bite the bullet and try to finish in the fall if he is game. I'm not saying you should stick with it. It may not be working at all but it sounds like he can read Barton stuff just fine just not other stuff and I'm mostly just relating my experience. It is boring. Very boring. I explain it like this. Physical therapy is super boring after injury or surgury but the goal isn't funny leg lifts or walking back and forth with a walker, the goal is to gain the ability to climb a mountain, or play soccer , or whatever your favorite thing is again. This is just a step to get there. You can make PT more fun with bells and whistles but if it takes longer why bother. Just get it done and let me go is my attitude. You let him have fun by listening to favorite audiobooks or enjoying poetry together or looking through science magazines or whatever your fun thing is. PT is best done in small chunks as often as possible and making it as effective as possible. If making it fun means you end up doing an excercise wrong making it take longer you end up shooting yourself in the foot. Like I said you may need a change if it isn't working but that is my perspective on the boring part. :) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 I'm a little confused too...are you concerned that he doesn't read as well as you think he should be able to for the point he's at in Barton, or that he WON'T read even though he is capable of successfully reading? Do you allow him to read anything he wants? I couldn't tell from your OP whether you thought he shouldn't be reading independently at this point in Barton. I think we are all a little confused. Possibly Mamamoose is a bit confused about the situation too. I also think a clarification as to exactly what he can or cannot read would help--such as checking the link I gave on the City Secrets books and seeing if her son can or cannot read that. But it sounded to me like he very, very much wants to read, not an issue of being unwilling, but that he is not capable of reading anything of interest to him. And frustration and bad feelings seem to be mounting. This seems to have been added to by not allowing him to read aside from Barton, so that his ability level and his interest level are getting farther and farther apart from each other. The most specific thing conveyed is that there seems to be some problem with his automaticity with decoding vowel teams (perhaps also other decoding), such that he can do it, but he struggles with it, to a point that would impede reading books at his interest level. Both the post in which she wrote that her son cannot read something at his interest level with fewer than 10 words per page unknown due to the vowel team problem--sounding like it is a problem even in one syllable words, and the very first post where it said he can decode what he has learned so far in Barton, but slowly, suggest that he can only read the Barton materials with some difficulty, but not easily, not at speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 So I'm not sure High Noon is the easiest thing to guess at context. In the attempt to make them easy to read with simpler vocabulary and sentences they come out kind of unnatural in my opinion. My son has a couple sets of books and though they did their best and are ok for readers they still are stilted and odd because the limits placed on them. The same with Barton readers but that's less important if you can actually decode the word. If the language is something they hear spoken all the time then the next word will come out naturally without even looking that close. If the language or grammar isn't something they hear constantly why would they guess correctly? I'm curious if he reads fluently or semi easily through the actual Barton stories. My guess is that IF he can read about the congressman on the balcony during a presidential election or whatever then it is working. It actually surprises me that so many say their kids can read a bunch of books by levels 4 and 5 since there is so much left to learn. Maybe we had a tougher case. My son started reading real books later (near the end of 6)and yet he can read most everything now (started but didn't complete 8) and his spelling is great too and we aren't sure whether to complete 8. Considering how well he does with his spelling now I might just bite the bullet and try to finish in the fall if he is game. I'm not saying you should stick with it. It may not be working at all but it sounds like he can read Barton stuff just fine just not other stuff and I'm mostly just relating my experience. It is boring. Very boring. I explain it like this. Physical therapy is super boring after injury or surgury but the goal isn't funny leg lifts or walking back and forth with a walker, the goal is to gain the ability to climb a mountain, or play soccer , or whatever your favorite thing is again. This is just a step to get there. You can make PT more fun with bells and whistles but if it takes longer why bother. Just get it done and let me go is my attitude. You let him have fun by listening to favorite audiobooks or enjoying poetry together or looking through science magazines or whatever your fun thing is. PT is best done in small chunks as often as possible and making it as effective as possible. If making it fun means you end up doing an excercise wrong making it take longer you end up shooting yourself in the foot. Like I said you may need a change if it isn't working but that is my perspective on the boring part. :) This is almost exactly how I feel and what our situation is. He can’t and doesn’t want to read much of anything (he wants to but doesn’t want it to be as difficult as it is), and he is tired of Barton. We are tired of it. Susan Barton herself doesn’t encourage reading outside of Barton so I’m not sure why someone here says her kid was reading Divergent in level 4–Great, but clearly that’s not the situation here, and to be honest, is only pushing me further toward throwing in the towel. This is the most helpful thing I’ve heard! I don’t love the High Noon books and feel like the Barton books are almost ridiculous. I tried to like them and so did ds. But we were both like—these are just weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) I’ve actually said it several times. He reads fluently the words he knows and has been taught from Barton. It’s on the slow side but I wouldn’t say he’s not fluent. I had an expectation based on mom’s here and the original woman who tested him, that after level 4 he would be reading well enough to read real books. That is not the case. Guessing and inferring is no different than where he was 2 years ago and guessing isn’t really a solution. And it’s not O-G. I don’t care for how Barton waits to teach complex vowel teams until level 8, but teaches suffixes and prefixes sooner than those. It seems very backwards to me. So cool if your kids caught on—maybe they aren’t severely dyslexic or maybe they aren’t brilliant enough to know they aren’t reading the right words. I don’t know. Edited February 25, 2018 by mamamoose 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 I’ve actually said it several times. He reads fluently the words he knows and has been taught from Barton. I had an expectation based on mom’s here and the original woman who tested him, that after level 4 he would be reading well enough to read real books. That is not the case. Guessing and inferring is no different than where he was 2 years ago and guessing isn’t really a solution. And it’s not O-G. I don’t care for how Barton waits to teach complex vowel teams until level 8, but teaches suffixes and prefixes sooner than those. It seems very backwards to me. So cool if your kids caught on—maybe they aren’t severely dyslexic or maybe they aren’t brilliant enough to know they aren’t reading the right words. I don’t know. Sorry, there were so many pages because I showed up late to the thread I was starting to get mixed up who said what by the time I got to the end. Well, I was here at the very beginning but then gone for awhile. I think looking at any standard non-controlled book you will find both vowel teams from level eight, silent e's from level six, and prefixes and suffixes. It is probably frustrating to have to choose what to go first because you need them ALL to read a regular ol' book. I must say we bad mouthed Webster over silent E's and generally made fun of English at times for being so ridiculous and it may have made my son feel a little better. Gave us a laugh at least. It's not his fault or Susan Barton's fault that we have phonograms with 6 different sounds but we are stuck with it. I know it's hard but since it is working don't jump ship now! The great thing is you go from being able to read pretty much nothing to almost everything once you get those final vowel teams. You won't jump to 3rd grade readers and have to work your way up, no you will jump to high school depending on vocabulary. So build that vocabulary with audio books, computer programs, just talking at the dinner table about something interesting and he will probably make a huge jump. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) So I'm not sure High Noon is the easiest thing to guess at context. From my perspective that is a strength, not a weakness. It forced my ds to actually read, not guess based on context. Actually reading not guessing was part of how reading the HN readers gave my son automaticity with the various phonics patterns. [eta: I agree with you that some of wording can be a little weird due to keeping them as controlled as they are, but we were able to analogize that to some of sports training being a little weird. My son has done ice skating and knew that his main coach insisted on correct form which helped him do better than some kids whose coaches let them be sloppy, so things like that could work by way of analogy to explain why to do something a particular way for a little while, even if it seemed a little weird. Sports analogies tend to work well for my son, I kind of don't think a PT analogy would have worked well. But again, each child is different.] There are a lot of possible programs. Analyzing what exactly helps a particular child or what he does not do well with can be very useful to find a good fit. I don't know that HN would be a good fit for OP's son, but it is sounding like Barton probably is not. Edited February 25, 2018 by Pen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) I think if he does well with what he has been taught, and you are specifically frustrated about vowel teams, then teach him vowel teams. I am using AAR with one of my kids now, it also has word lists and practice sheets. It’s also boring to read the word lists and the practice sheets. But if you want vowel teams earlier it would be something. You could probably get by just with the student packet if you just want words and sentences. Maybe Oxton House Publishers. I used Abecedarian Level B for vowel teams and long-e with my older son. It is more similar to the book Reading Reflex. It is a long slog I guess. I don’t understand if you are expecting it not to be a long slog. It’s a long slog. It’s true what pp said. If your son wants to read more complex books, then he is going to want to have all the pieces in place and not be happy until he does. It doesn’t sound like he would like to work his way through early readers and early chapter books, spend a year reading Magic Tree House type stuff, etc. There’s not some quick fix you are missing. If he’s making solid progress he’s making solid progress. It’s great when kids make leaps and read in earlier levels, but I didn’t see that with my older son and I’m not seeing it with my younger son. I didn’t/don’t use Barton because of the weird order. Well, for my older son, he wasn’t content until he could read Harry Potter anyway. I honestly thought he would like to read Magic Tree House, Animorphs, My Weird School, those 100-page chapter books about mythological creatures, etc. He didn’t. He didn’t like anything until Harry Potter. So if he is like this, I agree with the pp that even though it’s later, it might not make much difference, because you could teach the vowel teams sooner (and why not just do that if it is a problem) but it isn’t going to get him reading at his intellectual/interest any more quickly, necessarily. If you want to feel like he’s reading, he’s reading stuff outside of his reading lessons ——— I think on one hand, you can be patient for it to come together. On the other hand, it can be pretty motivating and it’s something to consider if it would be motivating to your son. But just ime, nothing was very motivating for my older son until he was actually reading Harry Potter. It’s very frustrating for sure. Edit: there were things he liked, he did like Henry and Mudge. But he didn’t feel motivated or satisfied. He liked the stories though, which does go a long way. But it’s not that “okay he’s reading what he wants; he has some kind of motivation to read such that it’s not a deadly chore.†Edited February 25, 2018 by Lecka 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 From my perspective that is a strength, not a weakness. It forced my ds to actually read, not guess based on context. Actually reading not guessing was part of how reading the HN readers gave my son automaticity with the various phonics patterns. . I was in no way saying that High Noon books were bad or that one should be able to guess the words. It is a good program that works for some kids. A different program and child was being judged on not being able to guess something that they hadn't been taught because they supposedly should be able to from context if they are comprehending things. That didn't make sense to me. That is all. I just didn't want to think I was dissing a program but in general I'm not going to argue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) I’ve actually said it several times. He reads fluently the words he knows and has been taught from Barton. It’s on the slow side but I wouldn’t say he’s not fluent. I had an expectation based on mom’s here and the original woman who tested him, that after level 4 he would be reading well enough to read real books. That is not the case. Guessing and inferring is no different than where he was 2 years ago and guessing isn’t really a solution. And it’s not O-G. I don’t care for how Barton waits to teach complex vowel teams until level 8, but teaches suffixes and prefixes sooner than those. It seems very backwards to me. So cool if your kids caught on—maybe they aren’t severely dyslexic or maybe they aren’t brilliant enough to know they aren’t reading the right words. I don’t know. It sounds like not a good fit. It sounds like you are both frustrated, not just him. Speed itself is one part of "fluency." Fluency should be checked for whether it is at or above where he "should" be for his age. And it should be checked with whole reading passages, not just individual words--ideally a whole reading passage of the type of words he knows from Barton, but not a passage he has seen before. He may be on the slow side of fluent, or he may be too slow to be considered fluent, or maybe he is actually far above normal in his reading speed for his age. You will want him to become fluent (including speed aspect) not only on controlled passages, but on material appropriate to his age and grade and intellectual ability level. [ETA: in my son's case, the speed rate on easier, controlled passages had to get above what was considered "fluent" for age level before the speed part of fluency could get to normal for age on passages that had all types of words at a level of difficulty (eg lexile) at age/grade level. And the speed had to be at or above age level norms on reading material at his interest level for reading to become pleasurable. This could be different for your ds and maybe if he can get to Harry Potter etc. reading level he will enjoy it even if it is very slow going for him. But my son was not able to enjoy reading if it was slow for him.] Edited February 25, 2018 by Pen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 But just ime, nothing was very motivating for my older son until he was actually reading Harry Potter. It’s very frustrating for sure. Edit: there were things he liked, he did like Henry and Mudge. But he didn’t feel motivated or satisfied. He liked the stories though, which does go a long way. But it’s not that “okay he’s reading what he wants; he has some kind of motivation to read such that it’s not a deadly chore.†I think we were lucky that my ds did like MTH--including especially the Fact Finders (in fact, we still have most of the Fact Finders long after the fiction books of MTH were given away); Hank the Cowdog; etc. reasonably well, not just that reading lessons were not a totally deadly chore with those. Ironically mine disliked Henry and Mudge. So as always, each kid is different. But similarly mine did not really reach reading satisfaction till he was reading books like Ranger's Apprentice, Harry Potter etc. series. Books that friends of his were then reading. I agree that there is no "quick fix"--but IME the sooner the child can get on to books that are at least not deadly chore level, and starts doing it more and more, the more progress starts to spiral upwards. So if child is willing to read some easier books I think it can help a lot short of reaching the books that are truly high interest for the child. And maybe the speed and order of a reading program to get a child to where they can move into at least semi-not deadly dull books can matter. I think some of the scan research has suggested that the brain can even change to seem less dyslexic when more reading is done. Night, night, sleep tight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 I’ve actually said it several times. He reads fluently the words he knows and has been taught from Barton. It’s on the slow side but I wouldn’t say he’s not fluent. I had an expectation based on mom’s here and the original woman who tested him, that after level 4 he would be reading well enough to read real books. That is not the case. Guessing and inferring is no different than where he was 2 years ago and guessing isn’t really a solution. And it’s not O-G. I don’t care for how Barton waits to teach complex vowel teams until level 8, but teaches suffixes and prefixes sooner than those. It seems very backwards to me. So cool if your kids caught on—maybe they aren’t severely dyslexic or maybe they aren’t brilliant enough to know they aren’t reading the right words. I don’t know. I'm sorry if you are frustrated with the various posts trying to help you. I read your posts quite a few times and was having trouble determining WHAT he is reading that is tripping him up and whether it is out loud or silent reading that is causing frustration. I promise I am trying to help. I'm sorry if my posts are more frustrating than helpful. It was me that said my daughter read Divergent halfway through Level 3. I did not share that to indicate that anyone getting halfway through Level 3 should suddenly be able to read all books. I was sharing to indicate that some books are easier to decode than others. This one was easier to decode. She read it silently. I did not have her read it out loud. I mentioned that book in particular because Lecka had pointed out on the LC board that it had more easily decodable words but was a regular book, not a leveled reader. I was intrigued and bought the book. DD was HATING the leveled readers and really frustrated with Barton. I found Lecka was right, the book WAS easier to decode. I gave the book to DD for Christmas. DD was able to decode enough words fluently to enjoy reading the book (but only silently). Would she have been able to decode each and every word accurately if she had had to read out loud? No. Absolutely not. If she had had to read the book allowed it would have taken ages and she would have been miserable because she could not yet decode all of the words. But she could decode fluently enough of the words in that specific book to read it and enjoy reading it. She was motivated because she could finally decode a significant number of words and because the story itself was interesting to her. For clarification, even though DD was reading Divergent in mid-level 3 she still struggled with a lot of reading and Level 4 took us well over a year to complete. She was slogging through Level 4 all through 8th grade and part of 9th grade. I'm not saying that she could suddenly read everything when she picked up Divergent. She couldn't. She could just read Divergent and other books at a higher interest but with easier words to decode. Reading that book in turn motivated her to want to do more Barton lessons. She was finally really believing that the program was helping. Reading that book was a really important turning point for both of us. On a side note, DD could only barely decode Clifford at the end of 5th grade. She had struggled horrifically with reading. She read Divergent halfway through 7th grade. Yes, she is profoundly dyslexic. Barton made a significant impact on her ability to read. My definition of reading may be different from yours, though. I defined it as the ability to read fluently the word types she had already been taught, to have enough word types under her belt that she had a fairly decent range of words she could decode with fluency, and she was able to figure out what the words were (or at least general meaning) of words she had not yet been taught to decode (if the text was made up mainly of words she had already learned). I also wanted to mention that learning about prefixes and suffixes opened up a TON of more advanced words for my kiddo. Honestly, Level 5 was huge for DD. She was finally able to decode a lot of words from text books and from more advanced novels. If you can make it through Level 5 I would try. I know some find it hard but it is so helpful in decoding more advanced words. DD actually loved Level 5. She loves the types of words she could finally decode. With regards to the vowel teams in Level 8, I could be terribly mistaken but I am almost positive that most of those vowel teams are used in earlier reading in Barton, just like words with Silent E are used in earlier Barton levels. The spelling rules are not explicitly taught until specific higher levels but many of the more common words that use those vowel teams (or Silent E) are part of the reading lessons before hitting those levels. Maybe part of the problem was a miscommunication and different expectations. Reading remediation of a dyslexic can take a really long time. And this is a lifelong thing. They may learn to read at grade level or higher, even become a voracious reader someday, but reading might still be slower than for an NT child. It might still take more effort. When parents are sharing that their child was reading after a specific level their definition of "reading" and yours may have been different. I think parents need to be realistic that this is a long process and not a perfect one, regardless of what program is used. All this to say, it appears that although your son is actually learning everything he has been taught in Barton, you are really burned out on Barton and you and he are both very frustrated. You expected faster progress and are upset at the sequence. Adjusting expectations and tweaking the existing program might work but if you are really feeling done and so is he then perhaps moving on will net you and your son better results. There are many programs out there. I wish you both the very best. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 Speed itself is one part of "fluency." Fluency should be checked for whether it is at or above where he "should" be for his age. And it should be checked with whole reading passages, not just individual words--ideally a whole reading passage of the type of words he knows from Barton, but not a passage he has seen before. He may be on the slow side of fluent, or he may be too slow to be considered fluent, or maybe he is actually far above normal in his reading speed for his age. You will want him to become fluent (including speed aspect) not only on controlled passages, but on material appropriate to his age and grade and intellectual ability level. [ETA: in my son's case, the speed rate on easier, controlled passages had to get above what was considered "fluent" for age level before the speed part of fluency could get to normal for age on passages that had all types of words at a level of difficulty (eg lexile) at age/grade level. And the speed had to be at or above age level norms on reading material at his interest level for reading to become pleasurable. This could be different for your ds and maybe if he can get to Harry Potter etc. reading level he will enjoy it even if it is very slow going for him. But my son was not able to enjoy reading if it was slow for him.] Yes of course speed is a part of fluency. Some people are faster readers than others though. I don’t think slow reading is a warning sign or is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 I'm sorry if you are frustrated with the various posts trying to help you. I read your posts quite a few times and was having trouble determining WHAT he is reading that is tripping him up and whether it is out loud or silent reading that is causing frustration. I promise I am trying to help. I'm sorry if my posts are more frustrating than helpful. It was me that said my daughter read Divergent halfway through Level 3. I did not share that to indicate that anyone getting halfway through Level 3 should suddenly be able to read all books. I was sharing to indicate that some books are easier to decode than others. This one was easier to decode. She read it silently. I did not have her read it out loud. I mentioned that book in particular because Lecka had pointed out on the LC board that it had more easily decodable words but was a regular book, not a leveled reader. I was intrigued and bought the book. DD was HATING the leveled readers and really frustrated with Barton. I found Lecka was right, the book WAS easier to decode. I gave the book to DD for Christmas. DD was able to decode enough words fluently to enjoy reading the book (but only silently). Would she have been able to decode each and every word accurately if she had had to read out loud? No. Absolutely not. If she had had to read the book allowed it would have taken ages and she would have been miserable because she could not yet decode all of the words. But she could decode fluently enough of the words in that specific book to read it and enjoy reading it. She was motivated because she could finally decode a significant number of words and because the story itself was interesting to her. For clarification, even though DD was reading Divergent in mid-level 3 she still struggled with a lot of reading and Level 4 took us well over a year to complete. She was slogging through Level 4 all through 8th grade and part of 9th grade. I'm not saying that she could suddenly read everything when she picked up Divergent. She couldn't. She could just read Divergent and other books at a higher interest but with easier words to decode. Reading that book in turn motivated her to want to do more Barton lessons. She was finally really believing that the program was helping. Reading that book was a really important turning point for both of us. On a side note, DD could only barely decode Clifford at the end of 5th grade. She had struggled horrifically with reading. She read Divergent halfway through 7th grade. Yes, she is profoundly dyslexic. Barton made a significant impact on her ability to read. My definition of reading may be different from yours, though. I defined it as the ability to read fluently the word types she had already been taught, to have enough word types under her belt that she had a fairly decent range of words she could decode with fluency, and she was able to figure out what the words were (or at least general meaning) of words she had not yet been taught to decode (if the text was made up mainly of words she had already learned). I also wanted to mention that learning about prefixes and suffixes opened up a TON of more advanced words for my kiddo. Honestly, Level 5 was huge for DD. She was finally able to decode a lot of words from text books and from more advanced novels. If you can make it through Level 5 I would try. I know some find it hard but it is so helpful in decoding more advanced words. DD actually loved Level 5. She loves the types of words she could finally decode. With regards to the vowel teams in Level 8, I could be terribly mistaken but I am almost positive that most of those vowel teams are used in earlier reading in Barton, just like words with Silent E are used in earlier Barton levels. The spelling rules are not explicitly taught until specific higher levels but many of the more common words that use those vowel teams (or Silent E) are part of the reading lessons before hitting those levels. Maybe part of the problem was a miscommunication and different expectations. Reading remediation of a dyslexic can take a really long time. And this is a lifelong thing. They may learn to read at grade level or higher, even become a voracious reader someday, but reading might still be slower than for an NT child. It might still take more effort. When parents are sharing that their child was reading after a specific level their definition of "reading" and yours may have been different. I think parents need to be realistic that this is a long process and not a perfect one, regardless of what program is used. All this to say, it appears that although your son is actually learning everything he has been taught in Barton, you are really burned out on Barton and you and he are both very frustrated. You expected faster progress and are upset at the sequence. Adjusting expectations and tweaking the existing program might work but if you are really feeling done and so is he then perhaps moving on will net you and your son better results. There are many programs out there. I wish you both the very best. He reads better silently for sure. And no, silent E words aren’t used, and neither are the advanced vowel teams. Nothing that isn't explicitly taught is used prior to being taught. That is also part of my frustration. For instance, he knows the word car. He learned that in public school. But as we haven’t had him reading anything except Barton, for the most part, as per the rules, he doesn’t infer that word when seen alone. In context, of course he can. But afar? Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 Have any of you used the fluency workbooks from high noon? As we have already purchased level 5 we are going to persevere and finish this level, before we move on. I don’t know the ages other students were but he is still quite young, only 10. It’s always been a struggle to find content he enjoys. I think that’s typical for young boys but especially true for him. I am thinking some fluency drills might be helpful to get us reading passages every day and working steadily at that without it being whole books that are considered boring by him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storygirl Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) I’ve actually said it several times. He reads fluently the words he knows and has been taught from Barton. It’s on the slow side but I wouldn’t say he’s not fluent. I had an expectation based on mom’s here and the original woman who tested him, that after level 4 he would be reading well enough to read real books. That is not the case. Guessing and inferring is no different than where he was 2 years ago and guessing isn’t really a solution. And it’s not O-G. I don’t care for how Barton waits to teach complex vowel teams until level 8, but teaches suffixes and prefixes sooner than those. It seems very backwards to me. So cool if your kids caught on—maybe they aren’t severely dyslexic or maybe they aren’t brilliant enough to know they aren’t reading the right words. I don’t know. Mamaoose, this is quite a mean comment to address toward those who are taking their time to try to help you. Onestep answered you very graciously anyway, because she is a sweet person. But she (and I, if you were also directing it toward my comments about comprehension) did not deserve it. And especially, our daughters did not deserve it. Edited February 25, 2018 by Storygirl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) Mamaoose, this is quite a mean comment to address toward those who are taking their time to try to help you. Onestep answered you very graciously anyway, because she is a sweet person. But she (and I, if you were also directing it toward my comments about comprehension) did not deserve it. And especially, our daughters did not deserve it. I wholeheartedly agree—but until this point I don’t think anyone was listening to what I had been saying and just kept saying he ought to be reading and inferring already. Then I find out her daughter was 4 grades ahead of my son! Well 4 years of life experience would probably make some inferring a lot easier, right? No one thought it critical to provide that kind of information, but somehow found it critical to point out my son ought to be inferring MORE in his reading? By the way it was, and has been, the same about adhd, until I got a little snippy about it. I don’t want to talk medication because it isn’t happening here. So frankly, being blunt needed to happen to steer the course of the conversation. Edited February 25, 2018 by mamamoose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 Not only that but there is a lot of reading instruction experience that likely occurred before Barton was even begun. So it’s not even comparing apples to apples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storygirl Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) I wholeheartedly agree—but until this point I don’t think anyone was listening to what I had been saying and just kept saying he ought to be reading and inferring already. Then I find out her daughter was 4 grades ahead of my son! Well 4 years of life experience would probably make some inferring a lot easier, right? No one thought it critical to provide that kind of information, but somehow found it critical to point out my son ought to be inferring MORE in his reading? By the way it was, and has been, the same about adhd, until I got a little snippy about it. I don’t want to talk medication because it isn’t happening here. So frankly, being blunt needed to happen to steer the course of the conversation. So you agree that you were mean. But we deserved it. Edited February 25, 2018 by Storygirl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanin Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 I've never taught Barton, just other OG programs (like Wilson) and every program has its own progression. It does look to me like "easier" things like oi/oy are taught later than "harder things" like tion/sion. But when I really think about it, is any one piece necessarily harder or easier? I think it just depends on the person. For example, silent e can be really tough because it requires a child to realize that the e at the end changes the sound of the first vowel - and then to be able to to hold both sounds in their minds and choose the correct one. It's hard! Other kids struggle with remembering that "when two vowels go walking, the first one does the talking." Mine are struggling with that right now. All that to say, the specific order of teaching in any program is so that all of the materials work together - workbooks, readers, etc. If you pick up any "easy reader" it will likely contain most vowel teams, so for a person in the middle of a rigid program, it wouldn't be "easy." I don't see any reason not to teach vowel teams earlier - the only problem will be the OP won't be able to use the pre-made readers and such. She'll have to create her own sentences and/or find books from the library. I say go for it - but I like to break rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) So you agree that you were mean. But we deserved it. No, it was stated rhetorically. It has nothing to do with meanness. Rhetorically, it got my point across. Rhetorically, I stated maybe your experience was so vastly different from mine that I can’t possibly know what your experience was, and that you weren’t understanfing mine. It felt like, and has for a while here, people aren’t listening. I wasn’t passing a judgement toward your children specifically. It’s not like I didn’t say right off the bat my kid is TEN. I’m sorry if I offended you. I am very frustrated. Edited February 25, 2018 by mamamoose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 mamamoose I sympathize with your frustrations. This is a frustrating process and a frustrating form of communication. You felt you were being clear and many of us felt we were being clear but there was miscommunication on both sides. I would like to apologize for not making it clear earlier as to the age of my daughter when we started. She was actually 11 turning 12 when we started Barton. The reason I did not share the age of my daughter was because frankly I simply forgot. I have shared our experiences on this forum many times and I do not always remember in the moment what pieces I have shared with which posters. To add, my son was younger than yours when we started this journey. I do understand that a few years difference in age can make a big difference in the ability to "fill in the blanks" so to speak. I was trying to make the point that maybe if you were able to find a book series that held your son's interest that was easier to decode he might enjoy reading more and see more value in his Barton lessons. I was hoping we could help you find such a book. My son also finally found material that held his interest and got him reading more but his were more fact based books and I did not remember specific titles to show as examples so I did not focus on him. My mistake. Basically I was really trying to help and apparently doing a poor job of it. I only made you more frustrated. I will bow out now. I am sorry my posts caused you more difficulties. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Ok, so it sounds like boring is the number 1 thing to combat and second is understanding that whether he reads High Noon books or does AAR or whatever favorite program is out there, if he has dyslexia, it takes a lot of time and patience to get to that point. I know you know that but it is just frustrating. I see memes about listening to first graders read and I'm over here like, yeah well that was me for 6 years! For the second point I would say, if you can accept it your life will be easier. This does not mean he can't enjoy great literature read aloud or on audio books. In fact it is important he does so. It doesn't mean he can't learn science words while building stuff or doing an experiment. Don't let his reading difficulty get in the way of other learning and you will be more comfortable with the time it takes to get him reading on his own. Boring. I have a list of recommendations below for incorporating reading in my day and for interest. I've never found a fascinating phonics program and we have done a lot but if you can take a deep breath and do it in small chunks it is still doable. Sight word mountain- I wrote sight words on index cards (including review words) and set one per step on my stairs. I put newer harder ones at the bottom because he would end up saying them more. The goal was to get to the top of the stairs. When he misread a word he would slide/roll down to the bottom. I put the index cards back on the steps. This is why he got to review the bottom ones more. If you don't have stairs you could go down a hall or across a big room. It's more fun to make a story line with it. This works with 10 year old boys but he will outgrow it in a year or 2 or 3 depending on the kid. OneStep mentioned the Spelling Success card games. I highly recommend these. After reading a story google images or videos to help kids understand. Watching 15 seconds of a salsa dance or seeing a picture of Venice or the white house makes understanding the story easier and who doesn't like pictures of places around the world. Just don't let it eat up 10 minutes of your study time if you are keeping lessons short. Then you can reread your story. My son wasn't made to do outside reading but there were reading things we did do. He is in a bible club and when he wanted to memorize a verse we would write it on the whiteboard. I would read it to him until he started being able to mostly read it himself. I might point out words he didn't know. If they were decodable I might show him how to decode it but only 1 or 2 words especially if it was something he just learned. I would then read it aloud with him and we would erase one word. Once he could mostly read it or had it mostly memorized we turned it into a game where if you say it you get to erase a word but if you mess up you have to add a word. Sometimes we broke it into who, what, why, etc phrases to make it better to understand or memorize. You may not be interested in Bible verses but you could do poems (my boys especially like Shel Silverstein). Look for short ones first. And if you read them a number of times first, they are familiar. You can break some words up and just provide the others. Don't make it frustrating, just tell them the word if they don't know it. No guessing needed. If we were reading a science magazine and just happened to see a picture caption that he could read easily then I might ask him to read that. Just to show him he could but you don't need to do that everytime. It was encouraging when I saw one though. When cooking I would show him the recipe so he could learn abbreviations. Not to quiz or it would seem like school just to show and read aloud the recipe. I might think of more but those are some ideas to start. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) Oh I never did the extra fluency sheets so I can't comment on those. And it might be lost in this long thread but if it hasn't been mentioned the Barton website has extra stories on it that are more kid friendly than the ones in the book or can be just extra practice. Edited February 25, 2018 by frogger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Yes of course speed is a part of fluency. Some people are faster readers than others though. I don’t think slow reading is a warning sign or is it? 1) If his speed is slower than ____ words per minute (adjusted for errors) as per his age's minimum target he would not be considered fluent even if the other aspects of fluency are all met. ***2) Even if his speed is now at or slightly above the age target, given that he is not yet reading age level material, IME, it helps to have somewhat faster speed on the easier more limited materials in order to eventually arrive at a normal (perhaps slightly slower than average, but in a comfortably functional range) speed on the age level materials he wants to be able to read for his own enjoyment. *** I've starred this one because it is the reason I think you should be working on his speed at the same time as you are working on his vowel teams and other phonics. It is possible that his dyslexia is too great for that however, and that he will need accommodations for extra time in all his academics that require reading and to use audio materials in place of reading when possible. But it is also very possible that he will arrive at a much higher level of reading skill if you keep on keeping on, and even put on an extra push for really intensive work on reading for a year or so. If it were me, I'd go for the extra push, intensive reading remediation for the next year (including working on his speed), and evaluate how things are going monthly or so, tweak as needed. 3) Warning sign? Well, obviously, slow reading is a warning sign for dyslexia, but you already know he has that. It also often goes with ADHD, apparently, and which you also already know he has. And it can be a warning sign for slow processing speed--but I guess that when he was evaluated that was not found. 4) in re another post asking about HN Fluency books. Yes. But I do not recommend that for you because they have passages that include all sorts of words, with vowel teams, silent letters, etc., that your son has not learned yet. They are suited for a person who has all decoding skills solid already and only a fluency problem. The regular HN program can easily be used to work on and test fluency while also working on decoding. I think the workbooks that went with the Sound Out readers or later 2nd and up grade hi/low books, also may have had passages set up to work on fluency. We only ever got one workbook and I cannot recall for sure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 It would be harder to set up yourself, but you can make fluency speed drills with material you have on hand too. Or you could find his level in the HN online samples and use that right on the computer. Choose a passage at his level, keep it hidden under a piece of paper or have him look away till time to start reading. Use a count-down timer set for one minute. (Or use 2 or 3 minutes and divide at the end for words per one minute. Don't go longer than 3 minutes.) Say "ready, get set, go" or some such. On "go" you start timer going and he should start reading out loud. Make a check mark on a piece of paper or a second copy of his passage for any errors he makes. When the timer dings, stop reading, note which word it is. Count the number of words read. Subtract the errors (there may be a more complicated formula for dealing with errors, and how to deal with decoding errors versus other types, but basically just subtracting the clear errors should be close enough to work on it and improve). Make a record of the total words per minute and date to keep track of how he is improving on that--also record the difficulty of the passage. Often comprehension questions are used with such a passage to make sure that the speed is not outstripping reading for understanding. You could skip that part since you think understanding is strong for him, or could have him tell you something about what he read in his own words. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) A couple of things on deciding whether HN would be a good fit or not. HN does NOT use things like "when two vowels go walking, the first does the talking" ways to remember phonemes. It does not group multiple ways to make a sound together and have the child memorize those. It also does not work with nonsense words. It does not have color coding. If your ds finds any of that very useful or necessary, HN would not be a good fit. Rather, HN starts with the most common sound made by a letter or letter group in English and works on that via practice. Later it will deal with less common situations. So, for example, ea will first be presented where it makes the long E sound, most common for it in English. Later other situations like great, bear, etc. will be introduced. The child has to be able to understand that that is how it will be and not to get upset by a later ea as in bear, after first learning ea as it eat. I just straight out directly told my son that the arrangement was to learn the most common pattern first and less common ones would come later. One advantage is that when later reading real books and coming to an unfamiliar word the child will tend to try out the most common and likely pattern first, which often is right, rather than thinking through things like "when two vowels go walking" or "let's see, ea can make all the following sounds, if I try them all in this word, what do I get..." A bigger and more immediate advantage was that it was less frustrating and much faster for my ds to learn and internalize patterns rather than to memorize rules. It is a pretty plain looking black and white program. Literally. No color. A few pictures in the Chapter books. This worked well for my ds who tended to be distracted and confused by color and did best with plain page lay-outs. But if your ds would find that boring could be not a good fit for him. Language! had color, cartoons, pictures, sidebars, and a lot of things like that which could spice it up for some children and make it more palatable, but for my son it made it just more busy and worse for his dyslexia. Also, it started at too high a level for him. If sheer boredom is the main issue, you might want to look at Dancing Bears which is supposed to be more humorous, and maybe have funny pictures I am told. Edited February 25, 2018 by Pen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) ...has been recommended for vision therapy for mild convergence issues. We have not followed through because he has had 30 sessions of neurofeedback, to the tune of $3500, not including gas and hotels. We live 140 miles from services. I am not opposed to VT but I am not convinced that will help. He is super bright (IQ=138, when tested 3 years ago prior to Barton). Vision therapy is just not an issue right now. It wouldn't help anyway because he is uncooperative to the nth degree. He gets really tired really easily, and maybe that's where VT would help. Treading carefully into this...I just wanted to note that my son with very mild convergence issues completed a short course of VT that he barely "qualified" for, and it was LIFE CHANGING. After he got started, the COVD was stunned that he'd been able to read prior to VT. His issues were mild and his brain adapted quickly to the therapy, but his eyes were basically just totally giving up when he got tired. It was not evident upon exam until he was very fatigued visually. At the time we did VT, my son's IQ was thought to be about where your son's is, and part of why he compensated so well is his IQ. He also has ADHD and ASD, and as it turns out, quite a higher IQ than we thought when he was retested. 2e kids "hide" their issues well. What we think might be a little thing can actually be huge. My second child had a little bit different issues, but it was the same story with fatigue--she had to work his eyes hard, and then he'd really, really fall apart. VT was fabulous for him as well. I can't speak to compliance for your son. I don't know if glasses were mentioned here or not (I got a bit lost--this has been a rather confusing thread), but sometimes mild convergence can be solved with glasses. My son is slightly (and I do mean slightly) farsighted, and he chose to get glasses for that. The doc let him have his choice because his prescription is super, super tiny. It made a massive difference to my son. We also got him the Crizal lenses (he's careful with his possessions, and we knew any little bit of glare would bug him). Anyway, he expresses thankfulness for his glasses very frequently. ***ETA: I meant to mention this...some optometrists will start with really basic eye exercises to see if VT can be avoided in mild cases. You might even find some things by googling. We were given a brock string, and that tool gives a lot of mileage if you know how to use it and can gain a child's cooperation. My son needed additional exercises in part because the brock string was a bit too difficult on its own, but it was a great tool. Edited February 25, 2018 by kbutton 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exercise_guru Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Partner reading is so helpful with this level. Your son could read one page and you read the next page while he follows along with his eyes. I do not think this is mentioned but if you can have a reward for doing something tedious. Have him read a few pages outloud and time those pages. Then the next day see if he can beat that time. Then the next day all with the same story. It first build identification and automaticity. It pushes those words into long term memory and since at the level he is reading they are the most common words of the English language that is a good thing. It also builds his confidence and boys love to beat timers. It helps to realize he can do something with increased tempo. you could do what you call "speed reading drills" Pick something that you know he can read from Barton and time it and then each day see if he can get faster. Praise the speed. What he needs to realize is how to push it into the normal pattern of speach. With everything my son does he hates to go slow and steady but overtime he gets better and better at things. The problem is he can't see the improvements or he is irritated that it is easy for everyone else and he has had to work his bum off to get to a level that is 2 years behind. To get him motivated and keep the forward progress I need to really push for him with rewards, excitement, encouragement. Its when it gets to that grinding spot I need to motivate like crazy to get him through. I also made posters of the word families ( in color ofcourse) and hung them up on the wall so he could glance at them if needed. From what I have read it feels like he has come a long way and is just starting to break through. Its usually not linear. Sometimes it just starts to cascade into place. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 mamamoose I sympathize with your frustrations. This is a frustrating process and a frustrating form of communication. You felt you were being clear and many of us felt we were being clear but there was miscommunication on both sides. I would like to apologize for not making it clear earlier as to the age of my daughter when we started. She was actually 11 turning 12 when we started Barton. The reason I did not share the age of my daughter was because frankly I simply forgot. I have shared our experiences on this forum many times and I do not always remember in the moment what pieces I have shared with which posters. To add, my son was younger than yours when we started this journey. I do understand that a few years difference in age can make a big difference in the ability to "fill in the blanks" so to speak. I was trying to make the point that maybe if you were able to find a book series that held your son's interest that was easier to decode he might enjoy reading more and see more value in his Barton lessons. I was hoping we could help you find such a book. My son also finally found material that held his interest and got him reading more but his were more fact based books and I did not remember specific titles to show as examples so I did not focus on him. My mistake. Basically I was really trying to help and apparently doing a poor job of it. I only made you more frustrated. I will bow out now. I am sorry my posts caused you more difficulties. I think the general point you were making about finding books to read that would be more interesting was excellent. As were other ideas you gave of what helped your kids. And even if they don't help Mamamoose, maybe someone else will see them sometime and find something useful there. I think a lot of this thread has useful information and ideas from many posters even if not quite what Mamamoose is looking for. For us, part of the reason for success, I think, was not only that HN proved to be a good fit for my son, but also the extremely large amount of time spent on reading during the intensive remediation year. Putting in that huge amount of sheer hours (maybe 4 per day for much of the year and never none even on weekends and holidays) required mixing it up with different materials and books, even when none of them was yet at a level to be thrilling, or even very interesting. It added up. And was less boring simply because of the variety, and also because at some point there started to be a thrill of actually being able to read something even if it was not yet a highly desired book. Actually, for my ds, I think that first thrill feeling of being able to read something started when he picked up HN's The Red Cap (all CVC and a few sight words), and could read it. It was the start of not feeling hopeless about reading. I think it also may have helped that I reserved some highly desirable books for ds to read himself (Harry Potter etc.) and used audio books mainly for things he was unlikely to choose to read himself even if able. I think I too am now bowing out of this thread unless I get a specific quote in my notifications alerting me to come back here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmaluv+2more Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) Somebody might have already pointed this out, but Barton recommends not requiring/encouraging reading outside of Barton until after level 3 (level 6, I believe, for textbooks). This does not apply to the entire time a student is doing Barton. I just wanted to make that clarification. Carry on. Edited February 26, 2018 by emmaluv+2more 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 26, 2018 Author Share Posted February 26, 2018 Ok, so it sounds like boring is the number 1 thing to combat and second is understanding that whether he reads High Noon books or does AAR or whatever favorite program is out there, if he has dyslexia, it takes a lot of time and patience to get to that point. I know you know that but it is just frustrating. I see memes about listening to first graders read and I'm over here like, yeah well that was me for 6 years! For the second point I would say, if you can accept it your life will be easier. This does not mean he can't enjoy great literature read aloud or on audio books. In fact it is important he does so. It doesn't mean he can't learn science words while building stuff or doing an experiment. Don't let his reading difficulty get in the way of other learning and you will be more comfortable with the time it takes to get him reading on his own. Boring. I have a list of recommendations below for incorporating reading in my day and for interest. I've never found a fascinating phonics program and we have done a lot but if you can take a deep breath and do it in small chunks it is still doable. Sight word mountain- I wrote sight words on index cards (including review words) and set one per step on my stairs. I put newer harder ones at the bottom because he would end up saying them more. The goal was to get to the top of the stairs. When he misread a word he would slide/roll down to the bottom. I put the index cards back on the steps. This is why he got to review the bottom ones more. If you don't have stairs you could go down a hall or across a big room. It's more fun to make a story line with it. This works with 10 year old boys but he will outgrow it in a year or 2 or 3 depending on the kid. OneStep mentioned the Spelling Success card games. I highly recommend these. After reading a story google images or videos to help kids understand. Watching 15 seconds of a salsa dance or seeing a picture of Venice or the white house makes understanding the story easier and who doesn't like pictures of places around the world. Just don't let it eat up 10 minutes of your study time if you are keeping lessons short. Then you can reread your story. My son wasn't made to do outside reading but there were reading things we did do. He is in a bible club and when he wanted to memorize a verse we would write it on the whiteboard. I would read it to him until he started being able to mostly read it himself. I might point out words he didn't know. If they were decodable I might show him how to decode it but only 1 or 2 words especially if it was something he just learned. I would then read it aloud with him and we would erase one word. Once he could mostly read it or had it mostly memorized we turned it into a game where if you say it you get to erase a word but if you mess up you have to add a word. Sometimes we broke it into who, what, why, etc phrases to make it better to understand or memorize. You may not be interested in Bible verses but you could do poems (my boys especially like Shel Silverstein). Look for short ones first. And if you read them a number of times first, they are familiar. You can break some words up and just provide the others. Don't make it frustrating, just tell them the word if they don't know it. No guessing needed. If we were reading a science magazine and just happened to see a picture caption that he could read easily then I might ask him to read that. Just to show him he could but you don't need to do that everytime. It was encouraging when I saw one though. When cooking I would show him the recipe so he could learn abbreviations. Not to quiz or it would seem like school just to show and read aloud the recipe. I might think of more but those are some ideas to start. I actually love all of those. Some of them I already do but I think the mountain site words is an excellent idea. I thought of one today. We are going to write a story. He can dictate. I will then convert it to Barton. Then he has to read it. The next day he rereads it and we add to it. I think we can continue this for several weeks and at the end he will have a story he essentially wrote himself AND he will be able to read it too. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 26, 2018 Author Share Posted February 26, 2018 Oh I never did the extra fluency sheets so I can't comment on those. And it might be lost in this long thread but if it hasn't been mentioned the Barton website has extra stories on it that are more kid friendly than the ones in the book or can be just extra practice. Do you know where to find them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 26, 2018 Author Share Posted February 26, 2018 1) If his speed is slower than ____ words per minute (adjusted for errors) as per his age's minimum target he would not be considered fluent even if the other aspects of fluency are all met. ***2) Even if his speed is now at or slightly above the age target, given that he is not yet reading age level material, IME, it helps to have somewhat faster speed on the easier more limited materials in order to eventually arrive at a normal (perhaps slightly slower than average, but in a comfortably functional range) speed on the age level materials he wants to be able to read for his own enjoyment. *** I've starred this one because it is the reason I think you should be working on his speed at the same time as you are working on his vowel teams and other phonics. It is possible that his dyslexia is too great for that however, and that he will need accommodations for extra time in all his academics that require reading and to use audio materials in place of reading when possible. But it is also very possible that he will arrive at a much higher level of reading skill if you keep on keeping on, and even put on an extra push for really intensive work on reading for a year or so. If it were me, I'd go for the extra push, intensive reading remediation for the next year (including working on his speed), and evaluate how things are going monthly or so, tweak as needed. 3) Warning sign? Well, obviously, slow reading is a warning sign for dyslexia, but you already know he has that. It also often goes with ADHD, apparently, and which you also already know he has. And it can be a warning sign for slow processing speed--but I guess that when he was evaluated that was not found. 4) in re another post asking about HN Fluency books. Yes. But I do not recommend that for you because they have passages that include all sorts of words, with vowel teams, silent letters, etc., that your son has not learned yet. They are suited for a person who has all decoding skills solid already and only a fluency problem. The regular HN program can easily be used to work on and test fluency while also working on decoding. I think the workbooks that went with the Sound Out readers or later 2nd and up grade hi/low books, also may have had passages set up to work on fluency. We only ever got one workbook and I cannot recall for sure. Oh, he has slow processing speed as well! However, neurofeedback improved that significantly and we will be going for booster sessions this summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 26, 2018 Author Share Posted February 26, 2018 It would be harder to set up yourself, but you can make fluency speed drills with material you have on hand too. Or you could find his level in the HN online samples and use that right on the computer. Choose a passage at his level, keep it hidden under a piece of paper or have him look away till time to start reading. Use a count-down timer set for one minute. (Or use 2 or 3 minutes and divide at the end for words per one minute. Don't go longer than 3 minutes.) Say "ready, get set, go" or some such. On "go" you start timer going and he should start reading out loud. Make a check mark on a piece of paper or a second copy of his passage for any errors he makes. When the timer dings, stop reading, note which word it is. Count the number of words read. Subtract the errors (there may be a more complicated formula for dealing with errors, and how to deal with decoding errors versus other types, but basically just subtracting the clear errors should be close enough to work on it and improve). Make a record of the total words per minute and date to keep track of how he is improving on that--also record the difficulty of the passage. Often comprehension questions are used with such a passage to make sure that the speed is not outstripping reading for understanding. You could skip that part since you think understanding is strong for him, or could have him tell you something about what he read in his own words. I am going to do this this week. And work hard on fluency. I’m not even sure I know where to look to find “normal†but I am guessing I can google. This is helpful, and the details on HN are as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Do you know where to find them? If you go to bartonreading.com and click on the tutor tab you will find a whole list of tutor helps. You have to have a password though. She sends you one if you just tell her you purchased. I don't remember needing a reciept but maybe she could see I ordered. I have no idea how she handles if you purchased second hand. You will find a whole list of tools for tutors: fluency drills, extra practice sheets, a chat group, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Oh and it was in level 6 when I started asking him to read books outside of Barton and he did start with Nate the Great because that's what he was comfortable with and he was slower but he is sped up very quickly. That was just the begining of this school year. I now require reading (started in level 7) for at least 30 minutes. He is still slower than normal but fast enough to understand his books in the 700-850 lexile range. I would keep an eye out for signs that he really isn't struggling with eye issues. If you go back to previous lessons to read a story and he is struggling or getting fatigued (I'd expect him to work harder on new material) then you may want to rethink the eye issue. He should be able to read stories from previous levels fluently. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 26, 2018 Author Share Posted February 26, 2018 If you go to bartonreading.com and click on the tutor tab you will find a whole list of tutor helps. You have to have a password though. She sends you one if you just tell her you purchased. I don't remember needing a reciept but maybe she could see I ordered. I have no idea how she handles if you purchased second hand. You will find a whole list of tools for tutors: fluency drills, extra practice sheets, a chat group, etc. Okay I am in there but don’t see more stories. I see fluency drills but I don’t want to drill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 This thread is lengthy and I'm not reading the whole thing. Call Susan Barton. You are following her program and her recs. I hear she is very friendly and will answer questions and guide you. My DS worked with a reading tutor for 5 years starting in 2nd grade. I was not satisfied with his reading ability until he had been working with a Wilson tutor for over 3 years. As a high school, son continues to read and use audio books. Reading remediation is boring, difficult, and frustrating. Most kids with explicit and consistent reading instruction don't make a reading leap until they are 11-12 years old. My son's reading comprehension is very high. DS was taught explicit reading comprehension techniques, and he uses immersion reading, which means words are highlighted and synced with an audio version of the text. Let me state this another way; you are currently deep in remediation, and it is painful and difficult. Call Susan Barton directly for input. Best of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Okay I am in there but don’t see more stories. I see fluency drills but I don’t want to drill. In the column of tools it should say extra practice pages. I can't remember exacatly, it has been awhile and I forgot my password so I can't poke around without requesting a new one. I'm trying to remember if that was where she kept extra stories or if those were just worksheets. I think that's where they are though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanin Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 You can use this chart as a fluency guide: https://www.readnaturally.com/knowledgebase/documents-and-resources/26/386 You don't measure by grade level, but by the grade level of the reading. For example, if your 4th grader is reading at a 1st grade level, choose the 1st grade level category. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) Here are some good fluency norms for nonsense words, link at end of my syllables page. Drilling with them is very powerful for my students, you can get a lot done with 30 seconds of nonsense words daily. My normal students can do all 25 words in around that time, if you read slower, you can do 10 to 15 words daily, compute WPM using the formula, and track that. The link is #6 at the very end of my syllables page. http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/syllablesspellsu.html Here are good norms for oral and silent reading of normal text that I have found to be accurate with my hundreds of remedial students. My dyslexic students generally have much lower WPM than norms and gain fluency much slower than my other remedial students. https://www.readinghorizons.com/blog/post/2010/07/19/optimal-silent-and-oral-reading-rates Link #1 at the end of my syllables page has a silent reading test you can use. You can use a paragraph or two of text of another story to get oral reading rates. You may have to use other texts as a substitute, however, to be more accurate as those contain sounds you have not yet taught. The work on the syllables page is good phonics similar to OG phonics without a kinesthetic component but with a very strong nonsense word and syllable based component, the syllable is the true atom of reading instruction and syllabic phonics is helpful to anyone with an underlying phonological problem. I would strongly encourage you to try it, you should see gains and it does not take that long. Also, your Barton experience should allow you to add in a kinesthetic element if that is needed. My phonics concentration game is a fun way to get in some nonsense word practice and build fluency without feeling like a drill. When you chart the daily nonsense words and see the progress and only spend 30 seconds a day on it, it is a short drill that you can see the benefits from. They are both part of the syllables program. Also, the basic charts that I have are sound based, so very helpful for someone who has a phonological deficit. The separate 2 letter vowel charts for drilling are color coded, an excellent cue for learning and scaffolding. You start drilling on the color coded chart with the key, then the color chart without the key, then the black and white chart. My students learn the sounds much faster when they use the charts and look up the sounds themselves as an aid to outside reading after learning to use the charts. It takes about 10 hours to complete the syllables program but you will learn all the sounds and all the syllable division rules by the end, as well as how to use the charts and how to play the games. ETA: you should use 25 nonsense words to test that are the highest level of the sounds you have taught, here is my nonsense word document: http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/Resources/NonsenseWordsbyLesson.pdf Edited February 26, 2018 by ElizabethB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Here are ideas for games and making phonics fun. All my students need a lot of practice, these are ways to make drilling and repetition fun: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 I also have MWIA norms for hundreds of students, you can give the MWIA and see WPM rates and compare norms. I would use the MWIA 1 short. Here is a document showing norms, it also has a graph from one of my dyslexic students so you can see how that compares: http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/Resources/UnderstandingMWIAscores.pdf Here is a version of the MWIA that includes the MWIA 1 short if you want to give that: http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/Resources/The%20MWIA%20Version%203%20new.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Here are the sound arranged charts and an video of Don Potter teaching a similar chart, explaining the order of the sounds and how they relate to mouth and tongue position. I would watch the video before teaching the chart. I made a lot more progress with my students after adding in these charts and nonsense words. The syllables make for higher level progress but not faster progress, my students ended up at higher grade levels at the end after I added more syllables and Webster's Speller. http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/Resources/40LChartsCombined.pdf Here is the color coded 2 letter vowel chart, I made this for my dyslexic students and a students with speech apraxia who had a hard time learning the two letter vowel teams. My other students are fine with just the chart above, but my students with dyslexia or underlying speech and language processing problems need more. http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/Resources/OnePageVowelChart.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 I am going to do this this week. And work hard on fluency. I’m not even sure I know where to look to find “normal†but I am guessing I can google. This is helpful, and the details on HN are as well. We used HN system thus the HN fluency rate guide. I'm sure you can find plenty of guidance via google. We did (and so did the public school) fluency working toward age/grade level, even when decoding level was still below that. ( I read Mainer's post that others only expect a first grade fluency rate when working on first grade level material). I was never clear what your son's reading level actually is, I know you wrote that he cannot read 3rd grade level math word problems, but not clear if he can read 2nd grade level material. Possibly of note is this: "Ten Things to Help Your Struggling Reader - Yale Dyslexia dyslexia.yale.edu/...can.../ten-things-to-help-your-struggling-reader/‎ If your child is reading below a mid-second grade level, don't worry about fluency or speed. Focus on accuracy, or reading the words correctly, and don't pressure him to read faster. Instead, give him strategies to help him remember what he read, such as writing a sentence or two or drawing a picture of what happened on ..." My son enjoyed the fluency practice (he liked most anything that was a race) and felt encouraged by seeing a record of his time improving even before he was reading at a mid-second grade level. But if your son is at lower than mid-2nd grade reading level and turns out not to enjoy the fluency practice sessions you could wait for a while to practice on it, and just be aware of how he is doing. I thought your idea of having your son dictate stories to you, that he later can then read was wonderful! Anything like that you can come up with to give him extra practice in a way he might like it will probably help hugely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 27, 2018 Author Share Posted February 27, 2018 We used HN system thus the HN fluency rate guide. I'm sure you can find plenty of guidance via google. We did (and so did the public school) fluency working toward age/grade level, even when decoding level was still below that. ( I read Mainer's post that others only expect a first grade fluency rate when working on first grade level material). I was never clear what your son's reading level actually is, I know you wrote that he cannot read 3rd grade level math word problems, but not clear if he can read 2nd grade level material. Possibly of note is this: "Ten Things to Help Your Struggling Reader - Yale Dyslexia dyslexia.yale.edu/...can.../ten-things-to-help-your-struggling-reader/‎ If your child is reading below a mid-second grade level, don't worry about fluency or speed. Focus on accuracy, or reading the words correctly, and don't pressure him to read faster. Instead, give him strategies to help him remember what he read, such as writing a sentence or two or drawing a picture of what happened on ..." My son enjoyed the fluency practice (he liked most anything that was a race) and felt encouraged by seeing a record of his time improving even before he was reading at a mid-second grade level. But if your son is at lower than mid-2nd grade reading level and turns out not to enjoy the fluency practice sessions you could wait for a while to practice on it, and just be aware of how he is doing. I thought your idea of having your son dictate stories to you, that he later can then read was wonderful! Anything like that you can come up with to give him extra practice in a way he might like it will probably help hugely! I played around with some reading today and he reads great at a 2-3 grade level, depending...and for short periods of time does really really good. He tires easily. He loves poetry so I found a couple poems we will use this week. And his math is Beasr Academy and the words are often complex, so I sort of think it’s not fair. He read 4th grade science—I provided all words that were way beyond and he’s actually doing better than he lets on. Obviously it’s still very tiring and difficult but this spurred in me a desire to know exactly what I was comparing. I’m not nearly as frustrated. I do think we may hold off on level 6 until next fall—but need to find something to fill the in-between. We have not taken a Barton break in 3 years. I hope it’s not a bad decision. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 27, 2018 Author Share Posted February 27, 2018 How exactly do you measure reading level anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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