Tom Brady kissing son on lips controversy

[unsinkable]

http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/news/a47815/tom-brady-son-kiss/

 

In article, it states that Brady asked for kiss, got one, then complained it was only a peck and his son came back and kissed him a longer length of time.

 

I don't like how he complained about the length/quality of the kiss. That kind of makes me go...huh?

[poppy]

Also this week for Tom Brady: He does a regular weekly call in to a sports radio show, but  this week he  just called in to say he was upset the DJ had insulted his 5 year old daughter and didn't want to do an interview.   (The host, who is 25 and childless, referred to the 5 year old as an "annoying little pissant").  This got the host suspended.    Was it appropriate, or rude for  Brady to use his power against a relatively small-timer?   Brady did later made a statement indicated he hopes the guy does not get fired.

 

So odd that he's had two parenting  'controversies' this week.  He's always seemed like a normal good dad to me.

 

Both things seem well within the range of OK to me.

 

[BarbecueMom]

http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/news/a47815/tom-brady-son-kiss/

 

In article, it states that Brady asked for kiss, got one, then complained it was only a peck and his son came back and kissed him a longer length of time.

 

I don't like how he complained about the length/quality of the kiss. That kind of makes me go...huh?

 

So are you saying after his son only gave him a small peck, he felt a bit... deflated?

[IfIOnly]

I'm guessing they're an affectionate family including kisses, and because the kid was on camera and probably feeling self conscious, he gave dad a quicker kiss. Dad didn't get it and just automatically reacted or something. Just my theory. ;)

 

In the book The Five Love Languages for Children, a whole chapter is dedicated to physical affection in the family. One of the think the author mentions is how as kids get older they tend to not want physical affection from mom and dad in front of friends or in public.

 

BTW, the above book is probably the best parenting book I've ever read and the only one I would probably recommend wholeheartedly.

 

 

Edited: My oldest is 14, and my kids still hug and are affectionate in public though. We're a super affectionate family. Morning hugs still and all of that.  I'm considerate though with my older boys in front of othoers and let them take the initiative though.

Edited February 1, 2018 by IfIOnly

[Annie G]

I'm no Tom Brady fan but this issue is much preferred to the one in the 'killed over a cupcake' thread. 

[alisoncooks]

Hm. I though we were talking about early elem or younger....but 11? Idk. My 11 year old does not kiss my mouth, nor would I make her.

 

But this seems to be something in their family culture. The article shows Brady kissing his father on the lips, so apparently it's normal for them.

 

But I don't like forcing affection, especially in front of others. (ETA: not at all, but there are times when my girl is more affectionate when we're not in public. If she wants to be chill in front of others, but snuggle at home, I'm not gonna call her out on it.)

[liber]

i kiss my kids on the lips until they get older and then the kids think it is gross to do that and then they just kiss me on the cheek.  my 24 yr old has been known to kiss me on the lips without realizing it.  I pointed it out once and he didnt realize he had been doing it.  now he kisses me on the forehead.  lol  I still kiss my mom and nana on the lips.  Now my sister thinks that is gross and is sexual in nature.  

[IfIOnly]

Hm. I though we were talking about early elem or younger....but 11? Idk. My 11 year old does not kiss my mouth, nor would I make her.

 

But this seems to be something in their family culture. The article shows Brady kissing his father on the lips, so apparently it's normal for them.

 

But I don't like forcing affection, especially in front of others. (ETA: not at all, but there are times when my girl is more affectionate when we're not in public. If she wants to be chill in front of others, but snuggle at home, I'm not gonna call her out on it.)

I agree about forcing affection not being cool.

 

DH and I both grew up in families that kiss. We don't lip kissing as much we grew up with, at least after the kids get into maybe late elementary age. We do kisses on the cheek,top of head, forehead. My 11 year old gives me a hug and kiss on the cheek in the mornings.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't kiss my kids on the lips, but I don't think it's a big deal.  In terms of "coercing affection" well, I do sometimes say after a hug, "awww come on that's all I get?!"  In my defense I'm madly in love with my children!  They don't appear traumatized.  I don't actually force them to hug me some more though.

 

 

 

 

[gardenmom5]

doesn't bother me.   though in today's age - there might be a difference because there are people who will twist the most innocent thing into something tawdry.

 

I know multiple families that kiss on the lips - NOTHING inappropriate going on.

I detest (detest mind you) "pecky" kisses.   though I kiss my kids on the cheek and they kiss me on the cheek.   they'll shove their cheek in my face for me to give them a kiss.

 

the only  one I complain about pecky kisses is dh.

[gardenmom5]

I grew up with forced/coerced affection to be displayed for my grandmother. 

 

there is a difference between asking for a "better, or any"  'kiss/hug' and coercing/expecting/demanding/you-get-a-guilt-trip-if-you-don't a 'kiss/hug'.

 

 

the difference is - the coercion, if you DON'T give the hug/kiss/etc, there will be retribution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nixpix5]

I don't kiss my kids on the lips, but I don't think it's a big deal. In terms of "coercing affection" well, I do sometimes say after a hug, "awww come on that's all I get?!" In my defense I'm madly in love with my children! They don't appear traumatized. I don't actually force them to hug me some more though.

I could have written this verbatim.

 

My kids would give us kisses on the lips as baby and toddlers. It was a non issue. Playful games of "that's it? Give me more (hugs, kisses, etc)" just seems like a non issue. As they grow they don't do it anymore. I still will tease them at night about goodnight hugs and in silly voices I will say "I want 100, one million, trillions" just in fun. They are not traumatized at all. They think it is hilarious. One son eggs it on. It is loving family stuff.

 

I don't think we need to sexualize or pervert everything in society. Some things are family dynamics that are theirs and not ours.

 

I too would decline an interview if someone called my beloved child a name. That is crude and in poor taste.

[gardenmom5]

I'm guessing they're an affectionate family including kisses, and because the kid was on camera and probably feeling self conscious, he gave dad a quicker kiss. Dad didn't get it and just automatically reacted or something. Just my theory. ;)

 

In the book The Five Love Languages for Children, a whole chapter is dedicated to physical affection in the family. One of the think the author mentions is how as kids get older they tend to not want physical affection from mom and dad in front of friends or in public.

 

BTW, the above book is probably the best parenting book I've ever read and the only one I would probably recommend wholeheartedly.

 

 

Edited: My oldest is 14, and my kids still hug and are affectionate in public though. We're a super affectionate family. Morning hugs still and all of that.  I'm considerate though with my older boys in front of othoers and let them take the initiative though.

 

one mom used that with great effect against her son.  she was tired of being called to the principals office.  he thought it was funny to get sent there.

 

so - she on day after being called to the principals office, yet again - gave him big slobbery kisses in front of  (gasp) GIRLS, and went on about how glad she was able to come down to the school at the drop of a hat (in front of girls - and his friends, with  hints she'd do it wearing curlers) .. . she NEVER got called to the principals office again.

[Bluegoat]

I don't kiss my kids on the lips, but I don't think it's a big deal.  In terms of "coercing affection" well, I do sometimes say after a hug, "awww come on that's all I get?!"  In my defense I'm madly in love with my children!  They don't appear traumatized.  I don't actually force them to hug me some more though.

 

Yeah, I've never seen any reason to think that sort of thing is traumatizing.  Or for that matter, that socially accepted things like kisses or hugs in greeting have any kind of effect on making kids more likely to accept inappropriate behaviour.  It's one of those popular theories that just doesn't really have any empirical basis.

[Arctic Bunny]

My ds11 aims for my lips first. Admittedly, I’ve started dodging, and putting my cheek there. I just assume he’s never thought about it. The only other person who comes close to loving me as much as he does (besides his non-kissy brother) is DH, right? And *he* kisses me on the lips, too!

[Catwoman]

So are you saying after his son only gave him a small peck, he felt a bit... deflated?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Aura]

My ds11 aims for my lips first. Admittedly, I’ve started dodging, and putting my cheek there. I just assume he’s never thought about it. The only other person who comes close to loving me as much as he does (besides his non-kissy brother) is DH, right? And *he* kisses me on the lips, too!

 

Interesting! I've a couple of kiddos that have done that, too, and I, like you, just sort of "dodge" by putting my cheek in the way. I never said anything, and they grew out of it. Now that you mention it, though, these were both very affectionate children, and it wouldn't surprise me at all for them to be imitating their father.  :001_wub:

[katilac]

Was it appropriate, or rude for  Brady to use his power against a relatively small-timer?    

 

Completely appropriate and normal parental response. Pick on my kid? I will annihilate you. 

 

In all seriousness, if the guy is stupid enough to do that, he does deserve a pretty substantial consequence. Public ugliness to kindergarteners is just not on. I would definitely want my kid to know that I was 100% on their side, and that wouldn't include doing an interview with the jerk who called them a name in public. 

[katilac]

No need to worry until they reach SNL kissing family levels:

 

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/kissing-family/n12360?snl=1

[Arctic Bunny]

Interesting! I've a couple of kiddos that have done that, too, and I, like you, just sort of "dodge" by putting my cheek in the way. I never said anything, and they grew out of it. Now that you mention it, though, these were both very affectionate children, and it wouldn't surprise me at all for them to be imitating their father. :001_wub:

Makes my heart happy, too :)

[Aura]

Completely appropriate and normal parental response. Pick on my kid? I will annihilate you. 

 

In all seriousness, if the guy is stupid enough to do that, he does deserve a pretty substantial consequence. Public ugliness to kindergarteners is just not on. I would definitely want my kid to know that I was 100% on their side, and that wouldn't include doing an interview with the jerk who called them a name in public. 

 

IMO, I think it would have been worse for Brady to go ahead with the interview! Kids first, ya know. Anyone that disses publicly on a child should be heavily reprimanded if not fired. That's just not cool.

[wonderchica]

Not a huge deal to me. Sounds like it’s normal for their family culture, if Dad does it to his father. I also wonder about the influence of Mom’s Brazilian culture. Maybe it is more typical there than in the U.S.?

[gardenmom5]

Yeah, I've never seen any reason to think that sort of thing is traumatizing.  Or for that matter, that socially accepted things like kisses or hugs in greeting have any kind of effect on making kids more likely to accept inappropriate behaviour.  It's one of those popular theories that just doesn't really have any empirical basis.

 

depends if there is coercion or not.  coercion will make a child more likely to accept inappropriate behavior from someone else - because they get the message they have no choice and will be punished if they don't' comply.

[TechWife]

Also this week for Tom Brady: He does a regular weekly call in to a sports radio show, but this week he just called in to say he was upset the DJ had insulted his 5 year old daughter and didn't want to do an interview. (The host, who is 25 and childless, referred to the 5 year old as an "annoying little pissant"). This got the host suspended. Was it appropriate, or rude for Brady to use his power against a relatively small-timer? Brady did later made a statement indicated he hopes the guy does not get fired.

 

So odd that he's had two parenting 'controversies' this week. He's always seemed like a normal good dad to me.

 

Both things seem well within the range of OK to me.

It is completely appropriate for a father to refuse to do an interview with someone who has called his child names. Famous people get to act like parents, too. Looking at it from another viewpoint, is it okay to call Tom Brady’s son names because his father is famous? No, it’s not. It’s inappropriate no matter who the object of the insult is and or who the parents are.

[Frances]

It doesn’t seem like a big deal to me, but it’s definitely different than our family culture. We are very affectionate, but I’ve never kissed my son on the lips or demanded or even asked for any kisses or hugs. He’s just naturally very affectionate and never went through a stage of not showing us affection in public.

[Bluegoat]

depends if there is coercion or not.  coercion will make a child more likely to accept inappropriate behavior from someone else - because they get the message they have no choice and will be punished if they don't' comply.

 

Well, that is the logic of it, but I've never seen any actual evidence that suggests it's true and I'm not particularly convinced by the logic itself.

 

I mean, if by coerce you mean drag the kid, all that is likely to do is tick him off.  If it mean ming it clear that certain things are socially normative, I don't think it very clearly follows that other inappropriate behaviours will be accepted as normative.  

 

I think it's a bit odd that this idea is so often repeated as if it has some empirical basis.

[poppy]

It is completely appropriate for a father to refuse to do an interview with someone who has called his child names. Famous people get to act like parents, too. Looking at it from another viewpoint, is it okay to call Tom Brady’s son names because his father is famous? No, it’s not. It’s inappropriate no matter who the object of the insult is and or who the parents are.

The radio guy was doing off the cuff jokes about a video clip when he made the insulting remarks about the 5 year old. It wasn’t specifically targeting Brady’s kid so much as ‘this kid in the video is being annoying like kids are ‘. Thoughtlessly mean but not , like, a specific campaign against this one little girl. I do think Brady responded appropriately . Hope the radio guy has kids someday and realizes he did go out of bounds.

[homemommy83]

I don't kiss my kids on the lips, but I don't think it's a big deal.  In terms of "coercing affection" well, I do sometimes say after a hug, "awww come on that's all I get?!"  In my defense I'm madly in love with my children!  They don't appear traumatized.  I don't actually force them to hug me some more though.

I was going to post the same thing exactly, and I also having squeezing/ kissing all over the face, fingers, and toes exposions.  My babies/ children are my life.

 

I am proud that he is a present and very involved father, I cannot believe that people are being critical of him wanting extra loves from his own son (it was probably in jest- like just give me one more big squeeze type of thing anyway).

 

Thank God for all of the great fathers like him.

 

Secondly, anyone call one of my children what that host did would get publically on the spot shamed.  Noone should call any child that.

 

Brenda

[unsinkable]

I don't see how this was any sort of forced or coerced affection. He asked, the kid obliged. The end.

 

Clearly Tom Brady loves his kids. Clearly he's trying to be the best dad he can. That's all that's really important here.

If it is forced or coerced, and the kid is 11...he knows what is expected of him. The damage (emotional manipulation) was done years ago.

 

IF being the operative word. I'm NOT saying I know one way or the other.

[Alice]

The kissing on the lips doesn’t bother me. 

 

The “coercion†thing is really hard to know. We would joke around about something like that in my house but the kids would know it’s not really obligatory. There aren’t any repercussions if they don’t do it. Like,I might joke that they can have dessert if they give me a hug. But they know that it just means I like hugs from them. If they choose not to hug me, it’s fine. My oldest has never been very physically affectionate so I don’t joke with him in the same way (and didn’t when he was younger). On the other hand, my own mother demands hugs and kisses and gets upset if she doesn’t get them and it really bugs me. Mostly, because there are repercussions...mainly she gets hurt and upset and it becomes a big deal. So I can see both ways and I think people tend to interpret it based on their own experiences. 

 

It’s hard to know what it’s like in anyone’s house (Tom Brady included) based on one snapshot in time. 

 

I feel more sorry for the kid just being in the spotlight.

[gardenmom5]

 

 

name="Bluegoat" post="7988126" timestamp="1517529977"]

Well, that is the logic of it, but I've never seen any actual evidence that suggests it's true and I'm not particularly convinced by the logic itself.

I mean, if by coerce you mean drag the kid, all that is likely to do is tick him off. If it mean ming it clear that certain things are socially normative, I don't think it very clearly follows that other inappropriate behaviours will be accepted as normative.

I think it's a bit odd that this idea is so often repeated as if it has some empirical basis.

I'm speaking from my personal experience.

Yes, if you are forced, no matter how sublte, you think you have no choice.
Children don't distinguish situations.

 

eta: trying to fix the html

Edited February 2, 2018 by gardenmom5

[sassenach]

I don’t see any part of that interaction as a problem.

 

I do think it’s just generally a dumb idea to put your family on tv/interwebs. You’d think he’d know better.

[Joker]

I do not like Tom Brady. I'm not who kisses their kids on the lips. I still think the upset over this is ridiculous. 

 

We are an affectionate family without the lip kissing of kids and I will miss it when it's gone. My almost 16 year dd still hugs and kisses me (on the cheek) every single night before she goes to bed. Ds also makes a point to come downstairs and say goodnight. He's 18 and will be off to college in the fall and I will miss his goodnights. I never initiate these things in front of others, though, because I don't want to make dc uncomfortable.  

 

I think Brady was completely within bounds for calling out the talk show host. They should know better and this will be a good lesson for them to understand it is not okay to talk negatively about someone's child on air. 

[Bluegoat]

 

Well, that is the logic of it, but I've never seen any actual evidence that suggests it's true and I'm not particularly convinced by the logic itself.

 

I mean, if by coerce you mean drag the kid, all that is likely to do is tick him off. If it mean ming it clear that certain things are socially normative, I don't think it very clearly follows that other inappropriate behaviours will be accepted as normative.

 

I think it's a bit odd that this idea is so often repeated as if it has some empirical basis.[/quote.]

 

I'm speaking from my personal experience.

 

Yes, if you are forced, no matter how sublte, you think you have no choice.

Children don't distinguish situations.

 

And from that perspective if you coerce your kids into anything, why would they not equally conclude that they will be punished for not complying with anything an adult says?

 

I am not worried that because my kids got in trouble because they went inside their friend's house when they weren't supposed to, that they will then think that they will get into trouble when some weirdo tells them to get in a car.  I'm not worried that because I make them tidy their room, they will assume that are obliged to sell drugs for someone.  Etc.

 

It's entirely possible to teach kids that kissing grandma is a socially normative thing like a handshake, but that does not apply to every other thing someone might ask the to do.  Heck, if I head off to Quebec, kissing people who are acquaintances is like a handshake.  

 

If you are in a general atmosphere of very punitive discipline, lack of respect, and fear, kids will generalize those emotions.  But that doesn't suggest that teaching social norms as a form of polite and expected interaction is a problem.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Bluegoat

[gardenmom5]

And from that perspective if you coerce your kids into anything, why would they not equally conclude that they will be punished for not complying with anything an adult says?

 

I am not worried that because my kids got in trouble because they went inside their friend's house when they weren't supposed to, that they will then think that they will get into trouble when some weirdo tells them to get in a car.  I'm not worried that because I make them tidy their room, they will assume that are obliged to sell drugs for someone.  Etc.

 

It's entirely possible to teach kids that kissing grandma is a socially normative thing like a handshake, but that does not apply to every other thing someone might ask the to do.  Heck, if I head off to Quebec, kissing people who are acquaintances is like a handshake.  

 

If you are in a general atmosphere of very punitive discipline, lack of respect, and fear, kids will generalize those emotions.  But that doesn't suggest that teaching social norms as a form of polite and expected interaction is a problem.

 

there's a difference in that level of coercion I think you just don't get.

it's not the "kissing grandma" that is the problem - it is HOW it is encouraged/enforced.

[unsinkable]

I didn't like the interaction from the point where Brady complained *that was only peck* (how ever it was phrased) and the son had to go back and kiss him longer.

 

I don't care if it's Brady or Super Bowl week or someone who is on Bowling for Dollars.

 

THAT part, the idea that the first kiss wasn't good enough, bothered me.

 

If it is family culture to kiss on lips, so be it. Here's your kiss! It's not like sending a kid back bc he didn't complete a chore correctly. It is like the kid's affection or attention wasn't good enough.

 

I can understand if others see it differently.

[Bluegoat]

there's a difference in that level of coercion I think you just don't get.

it's not the "kissing grandma" that is the problem - it is HOW it is encouraged/enforced.

 

Isn't that pretty much what I just said?

 

Kissing grandma is just a social greeting norm.  The same as any other.  Telling kids old enough to comprehend the language that it is rude not to do it isn't going to make them unsure of their personal boundaries.

 

Making kids think they have to do anything any adult says, or else, is likely to cause issues, whatever the focus of the situation happens to be.  And that type of attitude isn't likely to be about just one thing.

[gardenmom5]

Isn't that pretty much what I just said?

 

Kissing grandma is just a social greeting norm.  The same as any other.  Telling kids old enough to comprehend the language that it is rude not to do it isn't going to make them unsure of their personal boundaries.

 

Making kids think they have to do anything any adult says, or else, is likely to cause issues, whatever the focus of the situation happens to be.  And that type of attitude isn't likely to be about just one thing.

 

 

no - that isn't what ***I*** said.

 

there is 'go say hi to grandma/kiss" - etc.   -no fallout if the child refuses, for whatever reason.

 

then there is "go say hi/kiss grandma" - and it makes the kid sick to their stomach, but they have no choice and will face punishment if they refuse.

 

[Bluegoat]

no - that isn't what ***I*** said.

 

there is 'go say hi to grandma/kiss" - etc.   -no fallout if the child refuses, for whatever reason.

 

then there is "go say hi/kiss grandma" - and it makes the kid sick to their stomach, but they have no choice and will face punishment if they refuse.

 

 

OK.  Well, I still don't understand how this would have such a completely different effect than any other thing a parent insists on a child doing.  It seems very arbitrary to me.

 

ETA: and more to my original point, there is zero evidence that this affects rates of abuse.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Bluegoat

[6packofun]

I feel bad for the kid.  Every person should feel free to give affection in whatever d*mn way they please and not on camera if they don't want to. What kid is going to say no and make a scene on tv??  I think kissing on the lips is fine even though we would never do it in our family.  But making him come back for more grosses me out and makes me think Tom's playing to the camera.  Not child abuse, but still don't like it.  Just my opinion. 

[8circles]

I don't follow sports and don't really know who Tom Brady is. I don't have a problem with lip-kissing. It comes very naturally to some kids - some of my kids do & some don't. Neither loves me more, they just have different personalities.

 

I think it's icky to ask for "better" affection from your child. It can be done in a purely playful way where the kisser doesn't feel pressured and the kissee doesn't really "need" any affection from the kisser. But I am most familiar with the coercive kind and yeah - I believe it makes abuse more likely. I don't know which kind this was.

 

The response to the DJ who said something negative about his child seems appropriate.

 

 

[8circles]

Kissing grandma is just a social greeting norm.  The same as any other.  Telling kids old enough to comprehend the language that it is rude not to do it isn't going to make them unsure of their personal boundaries.

 

Making kids think they have to do anything any adult says, or else, is likely to cause issues, whatever the focus of the situation happens to be.  And that type of attitude isn't likely to be about just one thing.

 

Kissing grandma might be the norm, oftentimes so is grandpa pinching your butt or Uncle Joe having private hugs. So, also, is it the norm to pretend these things don't happen. Because they're norms doesn't mean they're appropriate or healthy.

[Bluegoat]

Kissing grandma might be the norm, oftentimes so is grandpa pinching your butt or Uncle Joe having private hugs. So, also, is it the norm to pretend these things don't happen. Because they're norms doesn't mean they're appropriate or healthy.

 

The suggestion is there is some kind of causative effect or propensity.  And if you want to show they are inappropriate or unhealthy, you have to actually show how that's the case.

 

Handshakes are a social norm, or un bec in Quebec.  In some places so is grabbing people's butts and pretend it didn't happen.  Does anyone actually say that the latter is the same as the former, or doing the former will lead to people accepting the latter?  Is butt grabbing more common in places where people shake hands, as opposed to ones where there is no social touching?

[8circles]

The suggestion is there is some kind of causative effect or propensity.  And if you want to show they are inappropriate or unhealthy, you have to actually show how that's the case.

 

Handshakes are a social norm, or un bec in Quebec.  In some places so is grabbing people's butts and pretend it didn't happen.  Does anyone actually say that the latter is the same as the former, or doing the former will lead to people accepting the latter?  Is butt grabbing more common in places where people shake hands, as opposed to ones where there is no social touching?

Yes, I do believe that social norms that normalize unpleasant or "forced" (from the child's perspectve) physical actions can make it easier for for abusive behavior to exist. 

 

No, I don't have to "show" anything because I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm having a chat with my online friends, not defending a dissertation. I believe these things from personal experience and that of many of my IRL friends. Teaching kids that their bodies are their own and they get to decide who and how to show affection is a good thing and IMO much more important than any social norms. 

[SKL]

That doesn't happen in my family, but apparently kissing on the lips is the norm for his - they have a photo of him, a grown man, kissing his father on the lips.

 

An 11yo is starting to pull away and act "too big" for a lot of things.  That may be all this is.

 

I didn't see anything sexual in it, and if there was, I don't think he'd be dumb enough to do that in front of another guy and then share it on video.

 

This isn't the first time the "kiss on the lips" issue has been brought up.  Maybe a year or two ago it was an 8yo girl IIRC getting a peck on the lips from her famous father.  I think some people are a little too "tuned in" to what other people are doing with their lips.

[Bluegoat]

Yes, I do believe that social norms that normalize unpleasant or "forced" (from the child's perspectve) physical actions can make it easier for for abusive behavior to exist. 

 

No, I don't have to "show" anything because I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm having a chat with my online friends, not defending a dissertation. I believe these things from personal experience and that of many of my IRL friends. Teaching kids that their bodies are their own and they get to decide who and how to show affection is a good thing and IMO much more important than any social norms. 

 

No, you don't have to "show" anything.  However, this idea that not teaching those kinds of social norms is repeated very commonly in advice in parenting magazines and such as a way to proof children against abuse.  People repeat it in conversations like this as if it's something that's well known.  And yet there really is no evidence that it is effective, or that those kinds of social norms have that kind of effect when you look at different societies.

 

 

Does it not seem kind of weird that something that appears on every "top 5 ways to keep your kid from being abused" is just something that some people think might make a difference to how kids think about things?  Making a strong statement that it's true, best this is the way kids think, seems to be over-stating the case.

 

The other element is that it seems to imply that parents who do teach their kids to do things like shake hands are somehow being bad parents, or naive, and I've heard moms comment on that sort of thing as evidence of ignorant parenting.  

Edited February 4, 2018 by Bluegoat

[8circles]

No, you don't have to "show" anything.  However, this idea that not teaching those kinds of social norms is repeated very commonly in advice in parenting magazines and such as a way to proof children against abuse.  People repeat it in conversations like this as if it's something that's well known.  And yet there really is no evidence that it is effective, or that those kinds of social norms have that kind of effect when you look at different societies.

 

 

Does it not seem kind of weird that something that appears on every "top 5 ways to keep your kid from being abused" is just something that some people think might make a difference to how kids think about things?  Making a strong statement that it's true, best this is the way kids think, seems to be over-stating the case.

 

The other element is that it seems to imply that parents who do teach their kids to do things like shake hands are somehow being bad parents, or naive, and I've heard moms comment on that sort of thing as evidence of ignorant parenting.  

 

You are the one that said I had to "show" something as if I were in a court of law.

 

We can all have different opinions on whether or not any of it is true or if anyone is overstating. 

 

No, I don't think it's at all weird that "something that appears on every "top 5 ways to keep your kid from being abused" is just something that some people think might make a difference to how kids think about things". I'm not even sure what that means but I can't figure out why any of it would be weird. I can say with certainty that forcing these kinds of social norms was a very effective tactic in teaching me that there were things that I had to physically take part in whether I liked it or not in order to make someone else happy. And that ended up hurting me.

Edited February 4, 2018 by 8circles

[Bluegoat]

You are the one that said I had to "show" something as if I were in a court of law.

 

We can all have different opinions on whether or not any of it is true or if anyone is overstating. 

 

No, I don't think it's at all weird that "something that appears on every "top 5 ways to keep your kid from being abused" is just something that some people think might make a difference to how kids think about things". I'm not even sure what that means but I can't figure out why any of it would be weird. I can say with certainty that forcing these kinds of social norms was a very effective tactic in teaching me that there were things that I had to physically take part in whether I liked it or not in order to make someone else happy. And that ended up hurting me.

 

 

I think actually I was talking to gardnmom, who was responding to me saying that I didn't think this was a particularly true statement by saying it was.  So yeah, if you want to argue that something is indeed the case when someone disagrees, you do usually have to give some kind of reason or evidence or something more than just stating it is so.

 

I think it's generally odd when people are giving what is supposed to be expert advice and it has no empirical basis and they don't actually mention that.  If I am trying to find out how to prevent my child from, say, getting in a car accident, I would like information that actually is likely to really help.  

 

I think everyone is taught that sometimes, they have to do physical things to please others.  I think everyone is taught social norms around things like greetings.  They aren't necessarily all the same things, but it is not easy to draw any kind of line around things that will make children sure of their boundaries or that suddenly will make them question them, without being arbitrary. I don't really think the difference in effect has much to do with that - it's more likely about other elements in their relationships.

 

I also think there is a real risk that not giving clear direction around social touching, greetings, etc, is that leaves a lot more room for confusion and just being unsure of what is ok and what isn't.  It's difficult to feel secure in an interaction under those circumstances - the fact is everyone feels uncomfortable all the time.

[8circles]

I think actually I was talking to gardnmom, who was responding to me saying that I didn't think this was a particularly true statement by saying it was.  So yeah, if you want to argue that something is indeed the case when someone disagrees, you do usually have to give some kind of reason or evidence or something more than just stating it is so.

 

I think it's generally odd when people are giving what is supposed to be expert advice and it has no empirical basis and they don't actually mention that.  If I am trying to find out how to prevent my child from, say, getting in a car accident, I would like information that actually is likely to really help.  

 

I think everyone is taught that sometimes, they have to do physical things to please others.  I think everyone is taught social norms around things like greetings.  They aren't necessarily all the same things, but it is not easy to draw any kind of line around things that will make children sure of their boundaries or that suddenly will make them question them, without being arbitrary. I don't really think the difference in effect has much to do with that - it's more likely about other elements in their relationships.

 

I also think there is a real risk that not giving clear direction around social touching, greetings, etc, is that leaves a lot more room for confusion and just being unsure of what is ok and what isn't.  It's difficult to feel secure in an interaction under those circumstances - the fact is everyone feels uncomfortable all the time.

 

You are absolutely correct. You've out-logic-ed me. 

[gardenmom5]

I think actually I was talking to gardnmom, who was responding to me saying that I didn't think this was a particularly true statement by saying it was.  So yeah, if you want to argue that something is indeed the case when someone disagrees, you do usually have to give some kind of reason or evidence or something more than just stating it is so.

 

I think it's generally odd when people are giving what is supposed to be expert advice and it has no empirical basis and they don't actually mention that.  If I am trying to find out how to prevent my child from, say, getting in a car accident, I would like information that actually is likely to really help.  

 

I think everyone is taught that sometimes, they have to do physical things to please others.  I think everyone is taught social norms around things like greetings.  They aren't necessarily all the same things, but it is not easy to draw any kind of line around things that will make children sure of their boundaries or that suddenly will make them question them, without being arbitrary. I don't really think the difference in effect has much to do with that - it's more likely about other elements in their relationships.

 

I also think there is a real risk that not giving clear direction around social touching, greetings, etc, is that leaves a lot more room for confusion and just being unsure of what is ok and what isn't.  It's difficult to feel secure in an interaction under those circumstances - the fact is everyone feels uncomfortable all the time.

 

YOU said:

 

Yeah, I've never seen any reason to think that sort of thing is traumatizing.  Or for that matter, that socially accepted things like kisses or hugs in greeting have any kind of effect on making kids more likely to accept inappropriate behaviour.  It's one of those popular theories that just doesn't really have any empirical basis.

i

 

YOU made a *definitive* statement.  you claim was that it 100% doesn't ever happen.

 

I said:

 

 

  depends if there is coercion or not.  coercion will make a child more likely to accept inappropriate behavior from someone else - because they get the message they have no choice and will be punished if they don't' comply.

coercion is not the same thing as saying "give granny a hug".  coercion is 'give granny a hug (with an unspoken: or else).'   - which I specified.

 

iow: it is NOT "100%" has no negative effect.   sometimes -  there are circumstances that DO have a negative impact upon a child, in demanding they "go kiss__, hug___ etc.".  

 

you have A LOT of chutzpuh to continue to insist, while claiming 100% accuracy that YOU are correct - and those of us with FIRST PERSON experience that is counter to your claim, are wrong.

 

 

newsflash for you;  YOU do NOT get to tell me (or anyone else) that my experience with coercion in my foo, and the shaming for non-compliance - did NOT have an impact in making me more likely to be a victim of abuse and bullying.

 

I'm willing to agree to disagree - are you?