what do you think of these scholarships?

[Jen500]

college is out of state public school, instate tuition about 9000, OOS about 28,000

 

ds1 received this award--full tuition for 8 semesters, must keep a 3.6 GPA

ds2 received this award-2 semesters tuition, can pay instate tuition for the remaining years if establishes residency during first year

 

I don't know why they received such different awards (their stats are very similar), but

the 3.6 GPA requirement seems high. (And ds will be an engineering major) If he calls the college will they be able to tell him what % lose this scholarship? And what the average GPA for his major is?

I can't decide if these are good awards or just so-so. There is no way this college is worth the 28k/yr tuition for ME as the parent, considering the other options.

 

 

[Lori D.]

Yes, 3.6 is a high GPA to keep up, esp. in a medical or engineering field.

Another financial questions: Can the student realistically complete the Engineering degree in 8 semesters? -- MANY students these days are needing more like 9, 10, or even 12 semesters to complete 4-year degrees, and if that's the case, what's your plan for funding the last semesters not covered by a scholarship?

In addition to the financials, I'd be looking closely at the quality of the degree program of the school.
- Is the Engineering program ABET accredited? 
- Are there research or internship opportunities?
- What are the statistics on hiring of students who graduate from the school?
- How acceptable are the credits from this college, if the student loses the scholarship and must transfer to a different school partway through?

Edited September 17, 2018 by Lori D.

[Gwen in VA]

I'd check out the "if establishes residency" clause. Call the fin aid office to find out how this is done and how common it is.

 

My dd attends an OOS public. She has had a well-paying job in the state the entire time, lives off-campus, and lives there over breaks. (Her job requires her to be there all but two weeks a year.) HOWEVER, because we pay her tuition she cannot establish residency that will count towards getting in-state tuition. I know that sounds weird, but I talked with many people about this for any number of hours....

 

Basically, in order to establish residency that counts towards paying in-state tuition, she would need to live in the state with no parental support for one year. Then and only then can she receive in-state tuition.

 

So I would really check out whether establishing residency is something that can be done or if it is a fake carrot, a bribe that can never be cashed in.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Gwen in VA

[Jen500]

Yes, 3.6 is a high GPA to keep up, esp. in a medical or engineering field.

 

Another financial questions: Can the student realistically complete the Engineering degree in 8 semesters? -- MANY students these days are needing more like 9, 10, or even 12 semesters to complete 4-year degrees, and if that's the case, what's your plan for funding the last semesters not covered by a scholarship?

 

In addition to the financials, I'd be looking closely at the quality of the degree program of the school.

Is the Engineering program ABET accredited? 

Are there research or internship opportunities?

What are the statistics on hiring of students who graduate from the school?

How acceptable are the credits from this college, if the student loses the scholarship and must transfer to a different school partway through?

Wow, thank you for bringing up all of these issues. I hadn't even thought about that first one (not completing in 8 semesters)! We'll have to consider that with the other colleges they're considering too then.

[Jen500]

I'd check out the "if establishes residency" clause. Call the fin aid office to find out how this is done and how common it is.

 

My dd attends an OOS public. She has had a well-paying job in the state the entire time, lives off-campus, and lives there over breaks. (Her job requires her to be there all but two weeks a year.) HOWEVER, because we pay her tuition she cannot establish residency that will count towards getting in-state tuition. I know that sounds weird, but I talked with many people about this for any number of hours....

 

Basically, in order to establish residency that counts towards paying in-state tuition, she would need to live in the state with no parental support for one year. Then and only then can she receive in-state tuition.

 

So I would really check out whether establishing residency is something that can be done or if it is a fake carrot, a bribe that can never be cashed in.

This at Univ of Utah--we visited the campus and admissions said that if the student lives for xx number days in Utah throughout the year (I can't remember the exact #), registers to vote/gets a drivers license in Utah that they can get residency status. I'll definitely look into this more, and even if it is accurate, it seems like it would take a year of planning ahead. I wonder if I can find out how many students actually do this.

[Lori D.]

On 1/26/2018 at 3:22 PM, Jen500 said:

This at Univ of Utah--we visited the campus and admissions said that if the student lives for xx number days in Utah throughout the year (I can't remember the exact #), registers to vote/gets a drivers license in Utah that they can get residency status. I'll definitely look into this more, and even if it is accurate, it seems like it would take a year of planning ahead. I wonder if I can find out how many students actually do this.

Yep -- there are catches.

From the Utah State University website that covers the *state's* laws on establishing residency for college financial aid, the student can NOT be declared as a dependent on anyone else's taxes, and must have proof of living in Utah -- such as a rental agreement or letter from a landlord, or a mortgage statement. Living in a dorm does not sound like it would work.

Here's the University of Utah's detailed policy on residency.
Here's the Utah statute on establishing residency.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

Wow, thank you for bringing up all of these issues. I hadn't even thought about that first one (not completing in 8 semesters)! We'll have to consider that with the other colleges they're considering too then.

 

Another policy to check in to is if the school has a policy for recovering a GPA back up to the requirements for the scholarship -- do they restore the scholarship? Many schools do have such a policy, to help students recover who trip up or have one bad semester.

[*LC]

The university of Utah admissions website has a lot of specifics on how this happens.

I am not against hoop jumping,and I had to jump through hoops to become an in-state student in a different state. I jumped through different hoops for one of my kids. It wasn't a big deal.

 

However, I get a different vibe when I read that Utah FAQ. For example,

"During the 12 continuous months I am establishing residency in Utah, can I go home to see my family during holidays or summer breaks?

A student may have limited travel outside the state of Utah, but total absences during the twelve continuous month time period cannot exceed a cumulative total of 29 days, including all holiday breaks, school breaks, and summer months. Remember that until you are granted residency for tuition purposes, it is in your best interest to do all you can to present a strong case for residency reclassification."

 

This would not have worked for my student who interned out-of-state all 3 college summers. How long are breaks between terms? How does a student prove they were in Utah during the break? I would ask extremely detailed questions to whichever department makes the rulings. We did this before my student enrolled, because there was confusing information on the university website. I would seek out families who have done this. We didn't do this, because the official meeting erased our concerns even though the language was disconcerting. So, I would not rule the program out just because the website explanation makes me nervous.

[katilac]

I told my kids to ignore scholarship offers that come with a 3.5 or higher GPA requirement. I didn't want them not taking interesting classes out of fear of losing their scholarship, and I didn't want them to have endless anxiety over it. 

 

At my dd's STEM school the recommended first semester in engineering is: Calculus (4 hours), Chemistry and lab (4), English (3),  humanities (3), and freshman seminar (1), for a total of 15 hours. 

 

Let's say the student gets one B in a 4-hour class, and one B in a 3-hour class, and A's in every other class. That sounds like a pretty successful first semester, but yields a GPA of 3.53.

 

Second semester is 17 hours, no freshman seminar (which is only 1-hour but an easy A), calc B, physics and lab, intro to engineering, English, and humanities course. So, you are past the first semester adjustment, but you have more and harder hours. 

 

There is just very little wiggle room with a 3.6 retention requirement. 

[Jen500]

I told my kids to ignore scholarship offers that come with a 3.5 or higher GPA requirement. I didn't want them not taking interesting classes out of fear of losing their scholarship, and I didn't want them to have endless anxiety over it. 

 

At my dd's STEM school the recommended first semester in engineering is: Calculus (4 hours), Chemistry and lab (4), English (3),  humanities (3), and freshman seminar (1), for a total of 15 hours. 

 

Let's say the student gets one B in a 4-hour class, and one B in a 3-hour class, and A's in every other class. That sounds like a pretty successful first semester, but yields a GPA of 3.53.

 

Second semester is 17 hours, no freshman seminar (which is only 1-hour but an easy A), calc B, physics and lab, intro to engineering, English, and humanities course. So, you are past the first semester adjustment, but you have more and harder hours. 

 

There is just very little wiggle room with a 3.6 retention requirement. 

 

Yeah--I really really don't want to put my son under that stress. Why do colleges even give out awards with those requirements??? I saw on the U's website that previous recipients of this award have to have a 3.7 GPA!

[MerryAtHope]

I think I'd run away, LOL! It's a lot of constraints (GPA, limiting to 4 years, trying to establish residency for the one...), and the student would have to be really driven (not just excited etc..., but really able to knuckle down and just can't be satisfied with going anywhere else etc...). It's probably not the best fit for many students. (Goodness, what if one of them wants to change majors as more than 50% of students do?!!)

[Vida Winter]

I would also be hesitant to go with either of these offers, especially the one with the 3.6 gpa requirement and you are talking about engineering. So many students get off to a rough start, and sometimes an engineering student is *thankful* to get a B! That kind of pressure would be awful...college is stressful enough without that.

[katilac]

I think I'd run away, LOL! It's a lot of constraints (GPA, limiting to 4 years, trying to establish residency for the one...), and the student would have to be really driven (not just excited etc..., but really able to knuckle down and just can't be satisfied with going anywhere else etc...). It's probably not the best fit for many students. (Goodness, what if one of them wants to change majors as more than 50% of students do?!!)

 

Bolding by me: I have never seen a college scholarship that wasn't limited to 4 years, I think that's pretty standard. 

[MerryAtHope]

Bolding by me: I have never seen a college scholarship that wasn't limited to 4 years, I think that's pretty standard. 

 

I actually have heard of several that would extend to a 5th year if needed. It's definitely not as common but worth knowing for sure.

[teachermom2834]

If I sent my dc to college on a scholarship with a very high required GPA I would defintely have a back up plan for what was going to happen and how we would pay if scholarship was lost.

 

That is an awful lot of pressure on a kid. A student could work very hard and do all they could with hard classes and still come in below that.

[Jen500]

Thank you everyone and I am thinking about all of these posts more....

 

What are reasons that students don't finish in 4 years (especially thinking about engineering)??

I have looked at a few colleges required/suggested course of studying for mechanical engineering and it seems if the student follows the schedule they'll finish in 4.

 

Reasons I can think of--student changes major (even within engineering) and needs to take more courses, student decides to take slightly reduced course load for whatever reason, student is unable to get into required courses, student doesn't get a good enough grade and needs to retake a course

Any other possibilities?

 

I myself took 5 years to get a BS because I transferred to a different college and the second college didn't give me credit for a semester internship.

[Lanny]

OP in post #1 my impression is that they have very little interest in your DS #2.

Regarding your comments in post #16...  

My DD is a Junior. She will probably Major in Engineering or something else in STEM. The first 2 schools I listed below are schools she will probably apply to. The 3rd school is the school your two sons have applied to and received the acceptance offers you have explained in post #1.

The 4 year graduation rates below are all encompassing. If I assume, they would be lower for Engineering Majors.

Why does Rice University have much more sucess with 4 year graduation rate? If I assume, it is because they are much more selective about who is admitted and they are stronger in Undergraduate Teaching.

Texas A&M under Academic LIfe, 4 year graduation rate is 52%
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/texas-am-college-station-10366

Rice University 4 year graduation rate is 83%
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rice-3604

University of Utah,  4-year graduation rate  29%
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-utah-3675

 

Based on that, I might suggest that DS1 and DS2 continue looking at different universities.

 

ETA:

I left off Texas Tech University, another one my DD will apply to.

4-year graduation rate  34% which is slightly better than the University of Utah

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/texas-tech-university-3644

 

Engineering, as has been commented on upthread, is very tough sledding and I assume the 4 year graduation rates, in all schools, would be lower, than the 4 year graduate for all Majors within all colleges of a university.

 

If you can find 4 year graduation rates for Mechanical Engineering, for example, that would be  of more interest to you and to your sons.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Lanny

[Jen500]

I was aware of that low 4 yr grad rate....the college kind of gave me the impression it was partly because Mormon students would be more likely to take time off to do a mission.

 

I asked someone I know who lives there what their thoughts were on the low grad. rate and was told it's probably because Utah parents don't value education and are less likely to help pay for college, so students are probably taking longer because of having to work to pay more of the cost themselves. Just one persons opinion though.

 

Both ds have other offers already (just trying to evaluate the ones we have so far) and we're waiting on acceptance/ rejection etc from half of their apps still.

[regentrude]

A 3.6 GPA requirement is extremely high for an engineering major. It will put a lot of pressure on the student and allow no room for even a slight mistake.

 

Most engineering majors do not finish in four years (and it has nothing to do with Mormons and missions). You should have a plan how to cover the cost of an additional year, or even two. It is very beneficial for a student to take coops, which greatly increase job chances, but they often cause a student to take extra time because he gets off sequence. It's definitely worth it, but you need to anticipate it.

 

ETA: The heavily sequenced nature of the courses in technical subjects is another reason for low 4 year grad rates. You can only fit it if you do not have to repeat a course, because that course is likely to be the prerequ for something else, and you can easily get stuck. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by regentrude

[Jen500]

A 3.6 GPA requirement is extremely high for an engineering major. It will put a lot of pressure on the student and allow no room for even a slight mistake.

 

Most engineering majors do not finish in four years (and it has nothing to do with Mormons and missions). You should have a plan how to cover the cost of an additional year, or even two. It is very beneficial for a student to take coops, which greatly increase job chances, but they often cause a student to take extra time because he gets off sequence. It's definitely worth it, but you need to anticipate it.

 

ETA: The heavily sequenced nature of the courses in technical subjects is another reason for low 4 year grad rates. You can only fit it if you do not have to repeat a course, because that course is likely to be the prerequ for something else, and you can easily get stuck. 

OK, thank you for explaining this, it's definitely helpful! We need to add the likely possibility of paying for an extra year then, wherever they attend.

[Kassia]

 

Most engineering majors do not finish in four years (and it has nothing to do with Mormons and missions). You should have a plan how to cover the cost of an additional year, or even two. It is very beneficial for a student to take coops, which greatly increase job chances, but they often cause a student to take extra time because he gets off sequence. It's definitely worth it, but you need to anticipate it.

 

ETA: The heavily sequenced nature of the courses in technical subjects is another reason for low 4 year grad rates. You can only fit it if you do not have to repeat a course, because that course is likely to be the prerequ for something else, and you can easily get stuck. 

 

My engineers finished in four years because they came in with a lot of credits.  Most of their friends in engineering did not graduate with them.  I do believe that most schools do not include co-op time in their four years of scholarship money, though.  So, if a student does a co-op or two, which would extend their time in school, they would continue their scholarship.  I agree that 3.6 GPA minimum for engineering would be very stressful.

[regentrude]

My engineers finished in four years because they came in with a lot of credits.  Most of their friends in engineering did not graduate with them.  I do believe that most schools do not include co-op time in their four years of scholarship money, though.  So, if a student does a co-op or two, which would extend their time in school, they would continue their scholarship.  I agree that 3.6 GPA minimum for engineering would be very stressful.

 

yes, the coop itself is not included; however, if it is a semester coop, the student may find himself off sequence because some courses may only be offered once a year, and this will prolong the time at the university beyond the actual coop time. If you're on coop in the fall, and a certain course is only offered in the fall, you can't take it in spring when you get back and have to wait until the following fall.

[Kassia]

yes, the coop itself is not included; however, if it is a semester coop, the student may find himself off sequence because some courses may only be offered once a year, and this will prolong the time at the university beyond the actual coop time. If you're on coop in the fall, and a certain course is only offered in the fall, you can't take it in spring when you get back and have to wait until the following fall.

 

Good point!  I hadn't thought of that.

[Vida Winter]

I was aware of that low 4 yr grad rate....the college kind of gave me the impression it was partly because Mormon students would be more likely to take time off to do a mission.

 

I asked someone I know who lives there what their thoughts were on the low grad. rate and was told it's probably because Utah parents don't value education and are less likely to help pay for college, so students are probably taking longer because of having to work to pay more of the cost themselves. Just one persons opinion though.

 

Both ds have other offers already (just trying to evaluate the ones we have so far) and we're waiting on acceptance/ rejection etc from half of their apps still.

 

Univ of Utah is an excellent school. My dh went there for an advanced degree. Part of the reason the grad rates are low is due to part-time students -- adults working and taking one class at at a time. If you decide on that route I would talk to the school about the residency requirements and be very clear about what you need to do. It does sound like a good deal if you can meet the requirements. It would be the better of the two scholarship deals, especially if your son ends up going more than 4 years. There is a huge gap between in-state and out of state tuition.

 

eta: I was not aware of Univ of Utah offering this type of residency deal. I thought Utah State did though. We're talking about the university in Salt Lake City, right?

Edited January 28, 2018 by Vida Winter

[Jen500]

Univ of Utah is an excellent school. My dh went there for an advanced degree. Part of the reason the grad rates are low is due to part-time students -- adults working and taking one class at at a time. If you decide on that route I would talk to the school about the residency requirements and be very clear about what you need to do. It does sound like a good deal if you can meet the requirements. It would be the better of the two scholarship deals, especially if your son ends up going more than 4 years. There is a huge gap between in-state and out of state tuition.

 

eta: I was not aware of Univ of Utah offering this type of residency deal. I thought Utah State did though. We're talking about the university in Salt Lake City, right?

Thank you for your input....yes, the Univ of Utah in SLC. We visited and admissions really seemed to stress the option of getting instate tuition (our tour group was mostly out of state students). Everything about the campus was so much nicer than I expected and both boys really liked it. And the mountains are beautiful lol.

[Vida Winter]

Well if you do end up with both going there it would be best to have both of them gain residency. That way if grades are not sufficient to keep the full tuition scholarship the fallback position would be in-state tuition which is probably comparable to your own in-state tuition where you live. Maybe they were assuming kids with full tuition scholarships would keep that option open? If they both go there you could also save $$ on housing if they share an apartment.

 

As a school they would probably love it. Good engineering program, fairly safe large city, much to do outdoors (hiking, skiing, climbing). If you want more info send me a pm. 

[Mabelen]

My engineers finished in four years because they came in with a lot of credits. Most of their friends in engineering did not graduate with them. I do believe that most schools do not include co-op time in their four years of scholarship money, though. So, if a student does a co-op or two, which would extend their time in school, they would continue their scholarship. I agree that 3.6 GPA minimum for engineering would be very stressful.

I know a kid who graduated from Berkeley in engineering in three years. I don't recommend this path, however, this kid is, as I understand, burned out and taking time off.