Lecka 9,113 Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 That is funny! IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m glad the timing worked out for you :)  I am hoping this is done soon! I donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t know why I donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t know about the one in 2013. Maybe my husband was deployed and didnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t want to worry me or something. He was deployed part of that year I think.  In 2011 I was just going Ă¢â‚¬Å“How can this happen? DonĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t they know people need to pay their bills and support their families?Ă¢â‚¬ 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sassenach 13,426 Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 At this point my husband is working and getting paid as usual. If it lasts very long he might work and not get paid.  He says he worked without pay in 2011 but I have literally no memory of it. I would have had 2- or 3-year-old twins at the time so IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m sure that is why.  IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m sorry for everyone. I hope this is resolved quickly! Rabbit trail. I have a bunch of friends with twins and every single one reports this same thing. Huge chunks of time in the early years that they have no memory of. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lecka 9,113 Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 Lol IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m glad IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m not the only one ;) I do remember my kids! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Butter 25,840 Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 Edit: okay, I am definitely thinking of 2011. I donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t remember the details but I think the government shut down between pay periods and we didnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t think we would get paid, but then they had a deal in time for us to get paid at the regular time.  There was no actual shutdown in 2011 unless you count the time between midnight and 12:30am. They made a deal at the last minute (or a half hour past the last minute) so a shutdown never happened. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/08/government-shutdown-2011-live-updates  The government actually shutdown in 2013 (October 1-16). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lllll 3,992 Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 (edited) nm Edited January 23, 2018 by rozes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kinsa 31,516 Posted January 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 (edited) Well, if anyone is interested, this is the official release. Note that this is the response for Big Bend National Park ONLY, not necessarily all NP's:  *************  Important Notice to Park Visitors  Due to the lapse in federal appropriations, the National Park Service (NPS) is unable to fully staff the properties under its management. It is not feasible to close or otherwise prohibit all access to NPS properties. Park visitors are advised to use extreme caution if choosing to enter NPS property, as NPS personnel will not be available to provide guidance, assistance, maintenance, or emergency response. Any entry onto NPS property during this period of federal government shutdown is at the visitorĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s sole risk.  The NPS will not operate parks during the shutdown period, and no visitor services will be provided. The NPS will not issue permits, conduct educational programs, collect trash, operate or provide restrooms, maintain roads or walkways (including plowing and ice melting), or provide visitor information.  The NPS will cease providing services for NPS-operated campgrounds, including maintenance, janitorial, bathrooms, showers, check-in/check-out, and reservations. Visitors in campgrounds will not be asked to leave, but no services will be available, including check-in/check-out services. Visitors holding campground reservations should be aware that there is no guarantee their reserved campsite will be ready and available should they arrive during a government shutdown.  During a Federal government shutdown, we do not monitor or update social media. Edited January 20, 2018 by Kinsa 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kiwik 5,506 Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 I'm sorry for you all but we will have to add this to the list of things people not in the US just can't understand. How the hell can a government shut down? Is this the time to declare war on the US as no one is there to defend? 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sneezyone 29,051 Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 I'm sorry for you all but we will have to add this to the list of things people not in the US just can't understand. How the hell can a government shut down? Is this the time to declare war on the US as no one is there to defend? Â No. Military personnel are essential and work with or without pay. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HomeAgain 15,581 Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 No. Military personnel are essential and work with or without pay.  But military support, i.e. contractors, are not subject. More of our military has been turned over to civilian jobs. DH is literally doing exactly what he was doing when he was active duty, but it is all civilian here and at several other sites.  This worries me more than anything during a shutdown. Lots of DFACs are civilian run. AFN is backed by civilians (it's currently down overseas). Support for tech is civilian run.  Yes, the military is essential. Contractors? Not necessarily so. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sneezyone 29,051 Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 But military support, i.e. contractors, are not subject. More of our military has been turned over to civilian jobs. DH is literally doing exactly what he was doing when he was active duty, but it is all civilian here and at several other sites.  This worries me more than anything during a shutdown. Lots of DFACs are civilian run. AFN is backed by civilians (it's currently down overseas). Support for tech is civilian run.  Yes, the military is essential. Contractors? Not necessarily so.  Yes, AFN (for those who don't know is American TV stations...about 10 of them we can watch overseas) is not essential. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MBM 2,282 Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 (edited) If a federal worker or contractor is providing essential services, then they will continue working. Only some are essential, not all.  On Monday all employees at dhĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s agency have to show up (unless sick or possibly on vacation/leave) for four hours so they can shut down in an orderly manner. This allows essential workers to get what they need from non-essential workers so that they can work.  Dh can retire in 2.5 years. Counting down.... Edited January 20, 2018 by MBM 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sneezyone 29,051 Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 If a federal worker or contractor is providing essential services, then they will continue working. Only some are essential, not all. Â On Monday all employees have to show up (unless sick or possibly on vacation/leave) for four hours so they can shut down in an orderly manner. This allows essential workers to get what they need from non-essential workers so that they can work. Â Dh can retire in 2.5 years. Counting down.... Â Yes, DH has several civilians who will still be working to keep mission-critical systems up and running. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alicia64 4,307 Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 DON'T BRING POLITICAL BLATHER INTO THIS THREAD. Â Because of the government shutdown, I guess I'll be entertaining dh at home for a while. *roll my eyes* Â Â Â It sounds like "snow days" at our house. Cabin fever big time. Â Good luck! Â Alley Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rosika 564 Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 My ex-husband is "essential" so he has to go in to work anyway, but since we don't live together that's fine by me! Â I only know because he called to let me know that he has to wait to file our taxes now. LOLÂ 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chris in VA 17,797 Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 Dd's bf is an airman. He will get paid for all of February in advance if the govt isnt up and running in 11 days. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
maize 76,976 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 I'm sorry for you all but we will have to add this to the list of things people not in the US just can't understand. How the hell can a government shut down? We're just as befuddled as you all. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChocolateReign 28,508 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 DON'T BRING POLITICAL BLATHER INTO THIS THREAD.  Because of the government shutdown, I guess I'll be entertaining dh at home for a while. *roll my eyes*  Is anyone else affected?  DH is furloughed. He has a list of things he plans to accomplish while out. I have a list for him as well. They have very little overlap. :closedeyes: 13 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
maize 76,976 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 My ex-husband is "essential" so he has to go in to work anyway, but since we don't live together that's fine by me! Â I only know because he called to let me know that he has to wait to file our taxes now. LOL Ah man, I hadn't thought of not being able to file taxes. I've been hoping to get ours done soon. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
East Coast Sue 778 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Yep, dh is also with the NPS. Hoping he's back to work soon. Â Â Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SebastianCat 1,550 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) I will never forget the shutdown in 2013, because we were IN Washington DC on vacation when it happened.  We obviously knew that it was a possibility before we left home, but we did need to rearrange our plans mid-week because all of the Smithsonian museums, the Capitol building, and the National Archives all shut down.  The only government institution that was still open for tourists was the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, and we had the place to ourselves.  They tried to shut down the national monuments by barricading them, but we watched news footage of 90-year-old WWII veterans who were in DC with an Honor Flight "storming" the barricades at the monuments.  I feel for those of you who are directly affected.  Edited January 21, 2018 by SebastianCat 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HomeAgain 15,581 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Dd's bf is an airman. He will get paid for all of February in advance if the govt isnt up and running in 11 days.  That doesn't seem like it's right information.  Right now, banks like USAA and Navy Federal are offering interest-free loans, continuing paychecks and then when the back pay comes in, taking it back. There is a bill being floated to continue paying the military, widows/widowers, and essential personnel for federal workers. It hasn't passed or been brought to the floor even. If it does pass, that will provide a measure of continuity for these folks. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ann.without.an.e 6,695 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 I just nearly spit out my tea... lol   Insider tip, I find that hiding it under the frozen veggies works every.single.time. :laugh: 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tammi K 4,307 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 My DH is as well...and he's overseas so no money for rent or other expenses. It's not like he can go the next town over and borrow $50 from Uncle Bob if things get tight.  So , if supporting two households on one income wasn't enough fun, now we get to try supporting two households in no incomes. Time to clean out the pantry and eat from the freezer. :o 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Margaret in CO 25,856 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 I have two that will keep working, defending our country, but not being paid. And another one whose stipend will not happen, which is going to make paying rent tough. Two of mine are not going to get a rent payment this month as their renters will not be getting a paycheck. However, their renters will be out there, putting their lives on the line, just not getting paid. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Liz CA 18,584 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 That doesn't seem like it's right information.  Right now, banks like USAA and Navy Federal are offering interest-free loans, continuing paychecks and then when the back pay comes in, taking it back. There is a bill being floated to continue paying the military, widows/widowers, and essential personnel for federal workers. It hasn't passed or been brought to the floor even. If it does pass, that will provide a measure of continuity for these folks.   Since we seem to have a government shut down annually now, this seems appropriate. I really thought they would continue paying military. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Liz CA 18,584 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Since some people are furloughed and other are not - what constitutes essential government employee? :) As I said above, the military would fall into this category but evidently they are working without pay. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Butter 25,840 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 The military *will* get paid. They just might not get paid on time (depending on if the shutdown crosses a payday).  Senator McCaskill (who is a Democrat) introduced a thing last night that would make it so military members and death benefits continue to get paid on time during the shutdown. Mitch McConnell objected and shut it down so it was not voted on. So, yeah. That's why military will have to wait for back pay just like my husband (who is an essential federal employee and so will continue to work during the shutdown but will not receive a paycheck for that work until the shutdown has ended). 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Butter 25,840 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Since some people are furloughed and other are not - what constitutes essential government employee? :) As I said above, the military would fall into this category but evidently they are working without pay.  Mission critical, essential to the necessary operations of the country, does a job needed for national security, etc.  See my above post about working without pay. People who are working are guaranteed to be paid for the time worked. They just won't get paid until the shutdown is over. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Starr 5,924 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 One would think that a budget would just stay the same until a new one is voted on... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Liz CA 18,584 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 You get it. Lol   Time to get that deck built, or the hot tub hauled in and installed, the house painted, the dry rot replaced...OR send him on the grocery trips that take 2 hours with more dry ice...:lol: 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Butter 25,840 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) One would think that a budget would just stay the same until a new one is voted on...  The federal government needs a new budget every fiscal year. Things change, needs change. Some things are temporary funding needs for special projects. What they have done is passed continuing resolutions to basically kick the can down the road for when they'll need to actually make the budget (a CR continues funding at the current level). This creates funding problems because the amount needed is no longer correct. Shutdowns occur when they don't pass another CR.  More to the point, I doubt there ever would be a new budget if they had no deadline and knew it just stayed the same until they got around to voting on a new one. Edited January 21, 2018 by Butter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lady Florida. 53,752 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Dh got an automated phone call today from his company (a contractor) saying to report to work as scheduled. I guess he's essential. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wilrunner 1,734 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Dh got an automated phone call today from his company (a contractor) saying to report to work as scheduled. I guess he's essential. Â My understanding was that contractors are paid by their companies (who are then paid by the government), so wouldn't be part of the furlough. My dh has contractors working for him who aren't affected and are required to work next week. Reading about some contractors being furloughed has surprised me. Whether one is furloughed or not must depend on the type of contract. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lady Florida. 53,752 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) My understanding was that contractors are paid by their companies (who are then paid by the government), so wouldn't be part of the furlough. My dh has contractors working for him who aren't affected and are required to work next week. Reading about some contractors being furloughed has surprised me. Whether one is furloughed or not must depend on the type of contract.  In 2013 a number of employees from his company were furloughed though his specific group was deemed essential. He's not an individual contractor. His company is a contractor with the Air Force.  ETA: A different company has that contract now (he's been through several companies as different ones win the bid). It's possible that the old company wasn't going to pay employees if the gov't wasn't going to pay the company. This company might do things differently. Edited January 21, 2018 by Lady Florida. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lady Florida. 53,752 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 This is the latest message. Most of it is directed at military personnel but civilians were furloughed in 2013, some from dh's company.  http://www.patrick.af.mil/2018-Government-Shutdown/  A MESSAGE FROM BRIGADIER GENERAL WAYNE MONTEITH  Team, By now, IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m sure you are well aware that a budget agreement was not reached last night resulting in a government-wide shutdown effective today. Many in our workforce recall the impacts of the 2013 shutdown, and now 5 years later, we find ourselves in a similar situation.  The unfortunate reality of the current situation is that lives and operations are disrupted. That said, I want you to know I am committed to each and every one of you and believe that communication will be the key to working through this together. I encourage you to read this page as it contains information on the current shutdown, how it will impact base resources, and what financial resource options you have, should you need them.  If the government does not reopen by the end of the weekend, everyone will report at their regularly scheduled times on Monday, and we will begin carrying out an orderly shutdown and doing official furlough notifications. This day will be difficult on all of us, but know that I value all of you for the effort you make day in and day out. We simply cannot accomplish our primary mission of assured access to space without our incredible civilian workforce. This challenging time should not divide but unite us. My hope is that the furloughĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s duration will be brief and become a mere speed bump in our Drive to 48 launches a year.  Be patient, be kind to one another, and stay informed. In the end, our Nation and our mission relies on us, and I rely on you.   1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YaelAldrich 2,945 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 My DH is supposed to fly to DC next Sunday and give a TedX talk to FEMA. The flight and hotel are paid for regardless if anyone will show up. I would drive the kids down from Boston to hang out for the day but the museums won't be open! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MBM 2,282 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Since some people are furloughed and other are not - what constitutes essential government employee? :) As I said above, the military would fall into this category but evidently they are working without pay. Usually the head of a department is made the essential employee, possibly others. Agencies sometimes interact with other agencies or provide information to the three different branches. For example, if a member of Congress wants information quickly from an agency for whatever reason, then the essential employee could provide it. Â My husband would prefer to stay home and says he could just run in if anyone needed info. Oh well. :D 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ondreeuh 4,519 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Our APO is closed! And I juuuuuust placed a few orders last week. Normally the postal system is not affected, so I don't know why they closed ours down. Luckily I don't have prescriptions arriving, but I would have liked to get the jeans I ordered, since none of mine fit. I guess I will pretend it's the 90s and baggy mom jeans are back in style. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SanDiegoMom 2,571 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 I have two that will keep working, defending our country, but not being paid. And another one whose stipend will not happen, which is going to make paying rent tough. Two of mine are not going to get a rent payment this month as their renters will not be getting a paycheck. However, their renters will be out there, putting their lives on the line, just not getting paid. Â Let them know to get in touch with Navy Fed or USAA and get an interest free loan. All the money will get paid on the back end. It will just be delayed. Â We do all our business almost exclusively with USAA and Navy Fed. They really take care of military. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarieCurie 116 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 I work in DC. Fortunately not for the federal government so I won't be affected. I feel bad for all the people who work in restaurants, etc in DC. Their business will go way down and they won't be able to recoup those losses. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HomeAgain 15,581 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 I must say, I love my town right now. A notice was sent out to all the folks to let them know what would/wouldn't happen if the shutdown extends past this weekend. Many of the folks here work for different parts of the government. Landlords and businesses have stepped up, pledging to work with those affected, extend due dates, whatever was needed to keep people afloat. It is a bit heartwarming. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Daria 7,301 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 If a federal worker or contractor is providing essential services, then they will continue working. Only some are essential, not all.  On Monday all employees at dhĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s agency have to show up (unless sick or possibly on vacation/leave) for four hours so they can shut down in an orderly manner. This allows essential workers to get what they need from non-essential workers so that they can work.  Dh can retire in 2.5 years. Counting down....  Is DH a contractor? Because the Feds I know aren't allowed to open their email, or set foot in their office as of Saturday at 12:01.  Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Daria 7,301 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Time to get that deck built, or the hot tub hauled in and installed, the house painted, the dry rot replaced...OR send him on the grocery trips that take 2 hours with more dry ice... :lol:  Except you have to be careful, because you can be called back in with no notice.  I have plenty of friends who started projects in 2013, and then were called back. Suddenly, they had the contents of their closets all pulled out, or drop cloths and half painted walls, but they were working tons of unpaid overtime to catch up with what they missed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
maize 76,976 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Is DH a contractor? Because the Feds I know aren't allowed to open their email, or set foot in their office as of Saturday at 12:01. I think it depends on the agency. Â My husband also has to go in on Monday to conduct "an orderly shut down". Â He is civil service not a contractor. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Daria 7,301 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Mission critical, essential to the necessary operations of the country, does a job needed for national security, etc.  See my above post about working without pay. People who are working are guaranteed to be paid for the time worked. They just won't get paid until the shutdown is over.  I think it's important to understand that words like "necessary" and "critical" and "essential" here are used in a bureaucratic sense, and are not synonyms for "important". The people who are working don't do jobs that are more necessary, they just do jobs that are more time sensitive.  For example, at NIH, the security guards who guard the labs are still there, but the scientists have been locked out of the labs, except for a handful who do things like keep cell lines alive.   Scientific research is why NIH is there. They're not something "extra", but because it's possible to do tomorrow what would have been done today, they were sent home.   Similarly, our soldiers, sailors, and airmen are working, but the diplomats who prevent war aren't. One isn't more important than the other.  4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Butter 25,840 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Dh got an automated phone call today from his company (a contractor) saying to report to work as scheduled. I guess he's essential. I wouldn't assume that. There are four hours tomorrow allowed for the orderly shutdown of business.  Is DH a contractor? Because the Feds I know aren't allowed to open their email, or set foot in their office as of Saturday at 12:01.  Not true. Many federal employees must report tomorrow to help shut things down. And many get instructions for doing that via email. After the orderly shutdown, then they can't do anything work related.  I think it's important to understand that words like "necessary" and "critical" and "essential" here are used in a bureaucratic sense, and are not synonyms for "important". The people who are working don't do jobs that are more necessary, they just do jobs that are more time sensitive. Yes, this is true. For example, my husband keeps the phones working for customs and border protection. It is extremely time sensitive that those phones work when they are needed.  I am curious what would happen in the Census Bureau if a shutdown occurred early in a 10th year. They are mandated by the Constitution to do the census. Usually, during a shutdown, the Census Bureau is a ghost town. But what if they were in the middle of conducting a census? At that point, it would seem a job normally classified as non-essential would become essential (or would Congress not care about the Constitutional mandate during a shutdown?). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lllll 3,992 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) nm  Edited January 23, 2018 by rozes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G5052 8,550 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 I work in DC. Fortunately not for the federal government so I won't be affected. I feel bad for all the people who work in restaurants, etc in DC. Their business will go way down and they won't be able to recoup those losses. Â Yes, I was a government program manager in DC during a previous shutdown before we had kids. When we came back, a lot of the faces at the local eateries were different, and several pick-up places went out of business shortly after that. The coffee lady I always got my morning brew from had to borrow money from relatives to stay in business. She was studying engineering in the evenings at the University of Maryland. I often wonder if she finished her degree. Â Some of my contractors weren't paid during the shutdown, and others were moved over to other contracts with state and local governments and no longer on my contract when I returned. Several of the IT support people assigned to my office found other work during the shutdown, and the contractor didn't have enough people to help everyone with computer problems when we returned. Â I had a huge backlog of Congressional inquiries and all kinds of contract issues to deal with when I returned. Â Thankfully DH and I were both working then, and we just used the time off to paint a few rooms and thoroughly clean the house. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Elizabeth86 2,670 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 Ah man, I hadn't thought of not being able to file taxes. I've been hoping to get ours done soon. I know, right? Dh said, good news I have my w-2's now. I said, why aren't you at the tax place (because I get my new dishwasher with our refund so I've asked like everyday)and then he reminded me of the shutdown. oh 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aura 2,402 Posted January 21, 2018 Report Share Posted January 21, 2018 I wonder if the president (any president!) could pass an executive order not allowing congress to get paychecks during shutdowns. That would probably be considered high-handed party bullying or something (regardless of which party's president did it). Â I really hate the us vs. them concept in politics, and I really, really hate that it's all the hard-working, real people that are affected most by their pettiness. Â 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.