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Carol in Cal.

What regulations should protect children?

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No live in boyfriends/males/hook-ups/lovers with no biological relationship to the children.

 

So many babies are abused, brain dead or killed around here by these guys.

 

You can't possibly be serious.  What stops the boyfriend from abusing the kids if he isn't a live in?  Nothing.  And what about all those kids (like me and my bio-brother) whose mothers dumped the drunk, abusive bio-father and married the stable, loving step-dad? And what about my husband, who is the adoptive (non-bio) father to our youngest?

 

 

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If you think step-dads and live in boyfriends who aren't biologically related are the only ones abusing kids, you need to talk to CPS workers who place foster kids in care.  I went to church with a foster kid beaten with a baseball bat into a coma by his bio dad when he was 5.  Another kid there had been repeatedly raped as a young child by his bio brother as his bio parents watched and encouraged it.  Seriously folks, there are bad bio fathers out there committing heinous crimes against their children. Don't be naive.

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There is a lot of truth to that, and some evidence to back it up, too.

 

I am not all that familiar with the current regs.

For instance, I'm not sure whether folks are legally required to report births.  I mean, they do, in hospitals, but do they have to if they have a home birth? 

 

It seems like the most egregious child abuse stories are always of kids that are kept very far under the radar.

 

We actually have a document on this!

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/itop97.pdf

 

Surely you have a law throughout the US that requires births and deaths to be registered?

 

No, not a federal law. See above.

 

I think it's easier to start with the rights of children, and work backwards.

 

Children have the right to an education -...

 

Children have a right to medical treatment - ...

 

Children have a right to a community - I believe suburbs should be restructured to create safe play spaces, sidewalks, and centers for people to gather.  I want to see floating offices like MFLCs- family counselors in the military who don't hide in their offices, but go out and interact with parents at playgroups and gatherings, being a friendly face first and setting up counseling later if a parent asks for it.

...

 

Well said. I think a lot of this is making the perfect the enemy of the good, and making the good "not good enough". It is true that one child is one child too many.

 

I don't know.  I don't like the regs in my state, but I manage them just fine.  They aren't meaningful however.  Sending a plan with quarterly reports is pointless nonsense.   I could write anything on there.  The testing seems a bit meaningful, but what bugs me is that it does not allow for alternatives.  

 

The reports are supposed to be the alternatives, but evaluating qualitative data is super expensive. Presumably the plan and the reports on what you did is what will back you up if the child continually fails all tests. That's what all teachers do.

 

Our culture has to decide that it values children and sees them of worthy of protecting. Until then, no number of laws and regulations will truly project everyone. ...

 

At it's root, the situation in California developed because the parents don't value the children. Beyond that, they were able to hide because there was not a strong sense of community in that immediate area. ... They don't trust the system, it is woefully inadequate to rescue and redeem. If a mandated reporter could be sure that a fully trained CPS staff member would look thoroughly at the situation and have resources to offer the parents (including parenting classes, part of that community aspect I mentioned), if a child could tell an adult "i need help" and be sure they would be heard. If a judge could act decisively, will full information at his/her disposal, if the community would step up to provide shelter, care and love to children in need. 

 

Until then, no number of laws will help, I don't think. It is already illegal to do drugs, provide drugs to children, beat children, imprison them, deprive them of food, keep them from getting an education, and on and on.  More regulations won't solve the problem. A shift in perspective would be a start. 

 

Exactly.

 

 

No live in boyfriends/males/hook-ups/lovers with no biological relationship to the children.

 

So many babies are abused, brain dead or killed around here by these guys.

 

I remember your posts and that you live in an area where the public schools are basically prisons, and there are a lot of really bad things going on in general, so I might be imagining too much here, but... 

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/parents-determine-child-success-income-inequality-2014-1

 

Not to mention, people who asked this exact question, the question thousands of single women ask themselves, what is more harmful, being dirt poor, or having a stepdad who could never love them like a real dad?

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/family-income-not-family-structure-more-apt-impact-kids-lives-n313486

 

It's true, my kids have at least one parent who is too disorganized to manage a marriage, a stable life, etc. And that in and of itself is a problem. So you'd expect that to have some effects. But it seems bizarre to take from a remaining stable parent the possibility of economic stability, which is the one thing they can give their kids.

 

... Not to mention restricting any single mother out there from ever being able to have a healthy relationship again? 

 

Have you ever heard people discuss step-parenting or single-parenting on the Internet? I wouldn't ask that question if I were you. 

 

... Instead of telling women that they can't ever love someone again to protect their children (or men for that matter), how about put more childcare support in place for single parents so they don't have to rely on their boyfriend/girlfriend of 2 weeks to watch their child so they can pay the bills?  Here it is practically impossible to get childcare vouchers at all.

 

But most taxes are paid by men (who out-own women by a huge amount, and out-earn us by nearly as much), and they don't want to pay for other men's kids. That's why they don't want to provide this. It's helping another man have kids. So the answer is no.

 

Wow. 

 

So my teen wouldn't have had a stable father figure in his life at all, and my other three children wouldn't exist. You would have had it so that my son would be without the man that loves him unconditionally, has raised him, and been the father his own father wouldn't be. And no siblings.

 

And my partner, whose dad is a hot mess, also wouldn't have had a step-dad. And my kids wouldn't have a step dad to teach them all the dad things that their dad can't because he just... is another hot mess.

 

If you think step-dads and live in boyfriends who aren't biologically related are the only ones abusing kids, you need to talk to CPS workers who place foster kids in care.  I went to church with a foster kid beaten with a baseball bat into a coma by his bio dad when he was 5.  Another kid there had been repeatedly raped as a young child by his bio brother as his bio parents watched and encouraged it.  Seriously folks, there are bad bio fathers out there committing heinous crimes against their children. Don't be naive.

 

Those are horrible stories. I'm so sorry. :(

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Annual tax filing and any other benefit program. If you want to claim your child for tax/benefits purposes, you submit the form that your doctor/nurse provides you attesting that your child has had his/her annual physical.

 

It won't catch the people who go completely underground but the overwhelming majority of people would comply.

We're going to need more pediatricians/family practitioners for this plan. And the IRS has enough power already, tyvm. Since citizens aren't subject to the same protections under the law vs the IRS as they are against any other agency, I would not want them overseeing my child's medical care as well.
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The reports are supposed to be the alternatives, but evaluating qualitative data is super expensive. Presumably the plan and the reports on what you did is what will back you up if the child continually fails all tests. That's what all teachers do.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm confused by this.  There is no alternative to testing (on some years).  If you have a child who has meltdowns during the tests or refuses, you are pretty much screwed.  I don't think this is fair.  I'm referring to standardized tests. 

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I know one thing I would NOT support is yearly home checks.  Mainly because I have zero faith and zero trust in CPS.  Pre-kids, back when I didn't pay attention to kid issues, my philosophy was probably "When in doubt, call CPS."  I've done a 180 on that.  They seem completely worthless at preventing abuse in foster homes where they have a ton of access.   In my general area is the CPS worker that traumatized a small child taking up-close spread photos of her genitals.   The court said the CPS can't be sued for abuse.   Then there is that other CPS worker that tweeted that she has a problems with parents married to each other, and homeschoolers.  The thought of one of these people in my home, gives me the shivers.  

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See how hard this is?

 

This is why no matter how pressed I am in conversations about social policy, I almost never will say what I think the law should be.  Because I know what I don't know, which is all the ways that a good law can become a bad one.  The laws of gravity and of unintended consequences seem to be the only immutable ones, LOL.

 

Every law that means to target one simple, obvious problem seems to tar undeserving others with the same brush.

Just as in the conversation wrt stepdads.

 

Still, I will wade into this issue a bit now and go a little meta on it.

 

I think that educating people about the responsibilities as well as the rights inherent in living in a free society should be undertaken, and would handle a lot of this problem (though not all of it).  I also think that that is a reasonable role of government.  I don't know how much of that is taught in citizenship classes for immigrants, but it should be in there; and if it already is, it might be a good model curriculum for use for this.  And I also think that it should be in all public education, and materials provided for free to all private, parochial, and home-based schools.

 

I also think that laws around child abuse should include proactive and free availability of resources to give parents good alternative ways to raise their kids.  This could increase parental effectiveness across the board.  For instance, our local Kaiser has classes for pregnant women that are free--breastfeeding, baby wellness and care, etc.  Those could be online classes accessible at the public libraries as well as from home.  They have to be made widely, radically available.  This is because more and more families are very isolated, at least out here, so new parents don't necessarily have a natural experience base to draw on or other good parents to observe.  Just like toddlers, who can be redirected much more easily than forbidden (ie tell them what to DO instead of just what NOT TO DO), adults who are earnest but ignorant/stressed for time/economically pressed and who have to discard the little they know about parenting because they come from difficult families themselves are going to do better if they learn what to do rather than just what not to do.

 

I think that if general uplift in observable parenting occurred, there would naturally be fewer falls into abusive patterns, and they would stand out more and be more readily noticed and corrected.  That's a slow process, as it's more of a societal uplift than anything else, but it's not hard to imagine it playing out well over time.

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I know one thing I would NOT support is yearly home checks.  Mainly because I have zero faith and zero trust in CPS.  Pre-kids, back when I didn't pay attention to kid issues, my philosophy was probably "When in doubt, call CPS."  I've done a 180 on that.  They seem completely worthless at preventing abuse in foster homes where they have a ton of access.   In my general area is the CPS worker that traumatized a small child taking up-close spread photos of her genitals.   The court said the CPS can't be sued for abuse.   Then there is that other CPS worker that tweeted that she has a problems with parents married to each other, and homeschoolers.  The thought of one of these people in my home, gives me the shivers.  

 

I had a friend who worked for CPS.  She didn't have any sort of opinion about homeschooling and had never met any homeschoolers (at least she had no opinion she admitted to me).  CLEARLY she did have a chip on her shoulder and was pretty jaded.  Meaning I think she had seen so much crap that she seemed to assume the worst in people.  Frankly, some of the stuff she said made me uncomfortable!  Now I get it.  When you've seen abuse and the garbage ppl do, but sometimes I thought she was just too quick to judge.  So if you end up with the wrong person doing these home visits....

 

On the other hand I was contacted by someone from CPS regarding another homeschooler.  It was a pretty hairy situation, but I did agree to be put down as a contact person.  And the situation really had nothing to do with homeschooling directly.  The CPS worker was incredibly nice and I felt like she was going to be fair towards the person.  I was relieved. 

 

So I hate the idea of yearly home checks.  I'm not opposed to outside something or other, but I see no point in a home check.  I'm a homeschooler, not a child abuser or criminal.  Why does my home need to be scrutinized in that way?  Does the neatness of my home indicate something about me?  Just that I'm neat.  I doubt neat ppl are less likely to be abusers. 

Edited by SparklyUnicorn
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I do like the idea of free parenting classes that are just everywhere, for people to have access too. Hopefully even forming communities, so that you attend childbirth classes with some of the same people you later attend toddler parenting classes, teen classes, etc with. That would be great. Needs to be funded. 

 

More funding and research into treating drug and alcohol abuse. 

 

More funding for CPS so they can be picky about who they hire, and don't burn out the people they do hire. 

 

Free exams for kids. 

 

So more money, not more legislation. 

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I do like the idea of free parenting classes that are just everywhere, for people to have access too. Hopefully even forming communities, so that you attend childbirth classes with some of the same people you later attend toddler parenting classes, teen classes, etc with. That would be great. 

At the hospital where I actually gave birth, a lactation consultant hosted free weekly 3 hour baby friendly meetings in the auditorium for drop in parents with their babies up to about age 6 months.  It was fantastic.  Sometimes there would be a speaker, sometimes the LC would just talk herself, fairly briefly.  Most of it was Q and A.

 

Someone would get up and tearfully, hesitantly describe something her baby was doing that she thought was grossly abnormal and presaged a horrible future.

 

Often the first thing the LC would do was say, anybody else?  Many hands would be raised, and the woman would look around, see that her baby was within the range of common, normal, and she would immediately visibly relax.  

 

Or the LC would ask matter of factly, "Is it a problem?"  Lots of times the answer was no, not unless you tell me it is.  Just checking.  

 

This is the kind of thing that used to happen at big family gatherings, or at playgrounds, or at church.  Not so much anymore, especially with so many people having smaller families.

 

Out of that group meeting, about 14 of us started a mothers' group that met for 10 years.  It was really nice.  But just the classes would not have gotten us around each other enough to do that, unless we also lived fairly close by, which we didn't.

 

Of course, for these original meetings to work, people had to be free on Wednesday mornings and have reliable transportation.  Not available to everyone.  That's why I was poking at parenting classes being radically accessible.

Edited by Carol in Cal.
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See how hard this is?

 

This is why no matter how pressed I am in conversations about social policy, I almost never will say what I think the law should be.  Because I know what I don't know, which is all the ways that a good law can become a bad one.  The laws of gravity and of unintended consequences seem to be the only immutable ones, LOL....

 

 

 

I was embarrassingly old when I realized that you can figure out what a law really does is to reverse the meaning.   So, "No Child Left Behind" is really "No Child Gets Ahead".   The "Endangered Species Act" is really "Shoot, Shovel and Shut-up".  There are others, but it is amazing how often this is proved true.  

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More funding for CPS so they can be picky about who they hire, and don't burn out the people they do hire. 

 

I'm not sure that more funding would fix the CPS problem.

 

It's kind of inherent--power goes to people's heads, and also if you're always trying to fix problems and never see much else, it brings you down.  I wonder whether there are methods that are used for police, for instance, to enable them to retain their good natures and not to be brought down by their observations of the dark side of human nature that could also be implemented for CPS workers.

 

I personally know four police officers.  3 are gentle giants, wonderful, trustworthy guys.  1 is so paranoid, suspicious, and cynical that it's hard to be around him and I would hate to be someone he pulled over.  How do the police try to keep their guys 'even'?  Are there techniques that generally work?  

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Don't assume pay is the only contributing factor to CPS worker burn out.  I have a couple of friends who do it-it's incredibly emotionally and physically draining to see and deal with horrendous problems day in and day out.  The CPS system itself is a nightmare because, shockingly (sarcasm) one size does not fit all.  I know, weird, right? And no, not everyone with access to help wants help.

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You know which institution in my community does the absolute BEST job of providing free resources to parents and children?

The library. Our library is AMAZING. And they're always having to do battle just to keep the funding they have.

 

They provide free English classes to kids and adults.

They provide parenting classes.

They provide tutoring.

Parent-infant classes.

 

And frankly, all these things are about more than just learning to read, or singing songs, or learning to discipline, or learning English. They are about being a member of a community, about having people (who AREN'T there to judge or report or legislate your behavior) to make eye contact with and talk to and receive support from.

 

Sure, it's all voluntary, and thus misses out on some individuals. But given that it is also voluntary to comply with even the best laws (for the lawbreakers often make the calculation that it is worth risking punishment if they get caught), I'm on the side of supporting and encouraging families.

 

I have a bad experience with the law on this, because in my family the seriously mentally ill, abusive sicko of a parent was extremely good at presenting a face of stability to the court and fooling everybody. Sometimes we have the tendency to forget that we are all human, capable of making errors-- including officers of the law, doctors, and CPS caseworkers-- and good parents need to be much, much more concerned about potential errors than bad ones. The parent I referred to above spent years taking in foster children, and that has made me terrified of having anything to do with the system.

 

So keep on funneling my taxes to the libraries, and I am also a supporter of public schools, but unfortunately I think the latter often serves more as a symbol of the ways we're failing children as a society despite the good intentions of many caring individuals.

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Don't assume pay is the only contributing factor to CPS worker burn out.  I have a couple of friends who do it-it's incredibly emotionally and physically draining to see and deal with horrendous problems day in and day out.  The CPS system itself is a nightmare because, shockingly (sarcasm) one size does not fit all.  I know, weird, right? And no, not everyone with access to help wants help.

 

I meant that with more funding they could have smaller caseloads, and maybe feel more effective. Not higher pay exactly. 

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Yeah our library has tons of stuff too.  Not everyone goes to the library though.  I do think ideally there are multiple places to get information.  I admit that I would not attend a parenting class.  Not unless it was for a very specific condition my kid had or something like that.  That concept just doesn't interest me. 

 

 

You know which institution in my community does the absolute BEST job of providing free resources to parents and children?

The library. Our library is AMAZING. And they're always having to do battle just to keep the funding they have.

 

They provide free English classes to kids and adults.

They provide parenting classes.

They provide tutoring.

Parent-infant classes.

 

And frankly, all these things are about more than just learning to read, or singing songs, or learning to discipline, or learning English. They are about being a member of a community, about having people (who AREN'T there to judge or report or legislate your behavior) to make eye contact with and talk to and receive support from.

 

Sure, it's all voluntary, and thus misses out on some individuals. But given that it is also voluntary to comply with even the best laws (for the lawbreakers often make the calculation that it is worth risking punishment if they get caught), I'm on the side of supporting and encouraging families.

 

I have a bad experience with the law on this, because in my family the seriously mentally ill, abusive sicko of a parent was extremely good at presenting a face of stability to the court and fooling everybody. Sometimes we have the tendency to forget that we are all human, capable of making errors-- including officers of the law, doctors, and CPS caseworkers-- and good parents need to be much, much more concerned about potential errors than bad ones. The parent I referred to above spent years taking in foster children, and that has made me terrified of having anything to do with the system.

 

So keep on funneling my taxes to the libraries, and I am also a supporter of public schools, but unfortunately I think the latter often serves more as a symbol of the ways we're failing children as a society despite the good intentions of many caring individuals.

 

Edited by SparklyUnicorn

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You know which institution in my community does the absolute BEST job of providing free resources to parents and children?

The library. Our library is AMAZING. And they're always having to do battle just to keep the funding they have.

 

They provide free English classes to kids and adults.

They provide parenting classes.

They provide tutoring.

Parent-infant classes.

 

And frankly, all these things are about more than just learning to read, or singing songs, or learning to discipline, or learning English. They are about being a member of a community, about having people (who AREN'T there to judge or report or legislate your behavior) to make eye contact with and talk to and receive support from.

 

Sure, it's all voluntary, and thus misses out on some individuals. But given that it is also voluntary to comply with even the best laws (for the lawbreakers often make the calculation that it is worth risking punishment if they get caught), I'm on the side of supporting and encouraging families.

 

I have a bad experience with the law on this, because in my family the seriously mentally ill, abusive sicko of a parent was extremely good at presenting a face of stability to the court and fooling everybody. Sometimes we have the tendency to forget that we are all human, capable of making errors-- including officers of the law, doctors, and CPS caseworkers-- and good parents need to be much, much more concerned about potential errors than bad ones. The parent I referred to above spent years taking in foster children, and that has made me terrified of having anything to do with the system.

 

So keep on funneling my taxes to the libraries, and I am also a supporter of public schools, but unfortunately I think the latter often serves more as a symbol of the ways we're failing children as a society despite the good intentions of many caring individuals.

Ours even has a social worker on staff to help people find the services they need to. So if they come in looking for books on essay recovering from alcoholism, they can speak with the social worker and she can direct them to in person classes, rehab, whatever. She won't even help them make sure they get on the right bus to go there.

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Don't assume pay is the only contributing factor to CPS worker burn out.  I have a couple of friends who do it-it's incredibly emotionally and physically draining to see and deal with horrendous problems day in and day out.  The CPS system itself is a nightmare because, shockingly (sarcasm) one size does not fit all.  I know, weird, right? And no, not everyone with access to help wants help.

 

You can get into a lot of strife from the system for not submitting to help for problems you don't have. It's very weird.

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Rosie, I've noticed, but it has never been a problem to me before that I couldn't 'like' your posts.   But, I've tried to Like everything you've said on this thread.  

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I meant that with more funding they could have smaller caseloads, and maybe feel more effective. Not higher pay exactly. 

 

But that still doesn't address the serious emotional and physical drain even a normal workload has on CPS workers.  These are people dealing directly with children who have been the most victimized. The tun over rate is really high.

 

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You can get into a lot of strife from the system for not submitting to help for problems you don't have. It's very weird.

 

Yes, the common sense levels and code of ethics vary dramatically in CPS workers, placement agencies and judges. 

 

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We're talking about statistically, what would help?

 

Regulations don't make a difference for 99% of families because 99% of families (or whatever high percentage it is) don't abuse their kids.

 

However, if you're talking about statistical regulations that would make a difference in child abuse, non-bio adult males would make a massive difference.

 

It does suck that it would take away freedom from women who want to get remarried or date/have live-in boyfriends after divorce or widowhood, that is true.

 

But it is also true that it would keep more kids alive and safe.

 

Thus is the nature of government regulation. Easy to give up other people's rights but hard to give up your own.

The end result of this may be fathers always getting custody.

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My kids don't have private exams. We were just at the dr on Monday with my 17 year old and I was required to go back with her because she is a minor.

Really. Imagine having a cervical smear test with your mother present.

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Really. Imagine having a cervical smear test with your mother present.

 

She isn't sexually active and her Pediatrician and the APN she sees don't do gynecology exams, so that doesn't apply here.  She does have the right to have a private exam for reproductive and mental health.  For all else, I have to be present, per their office's policy.

 

My 15 yr old had an appointment yesterday.  I was present for the whole exam also.  The dr pulled me into another exam room to discuss something with me privately, but he was never alone with the dr.

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Really. Imagine having a cervical smear test with your mother present.

 

Really. Imagine, as a teen, having that same test with only STRANGERS present?

 

At least I know my mother loved me and would be an advocate. I know that was not the case with any of my medical providers. They are there to exam, diagnose, and advise. 

 

For all of you who do not have advocates as mothers, and vice-versa, I am so sorry.

Edited by 5lilpumpkins
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Stepdads would fall under males with no biological relationship.

 

So, Yes, I really am.

 

Edited to add: I thought this was about what to do to prevent child abuse and protect children, not about homeschooling. But yeah, no live-in, non-bio-related males would go a long way.

So basically what you are saying is that a single mom may never get married?

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Wow. 

 

So my teen wouldn't have had a stable father figure in his life at all, and my other three children wouldn't exist. You would have had it so that my son would be without the man that loves him unconditionally, has raised him, and been the father his own father wouldn't be. And no siblings.

 

That's where we would fall as well. 

 

Of course, not to mention that eventually DH DID adopt DD22, so now her birth certificate shows him as her father....which doesn't change genetics....sooooo I dunno where that leaves anything.

 

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Really. Imagine, as a teen, having that same test with only STRANGERS present?

 

At least I know my mother loved me and would be an advocate. I know that was not the case with any of my medical providers. They are there to exam, diagnose, and advise. 

 

For all of you who do not have advocates as mothers, and vice-versa, I am so sorry.

 

I agree.  It's not like my mother would have stared at what was going on.  I wish she were still alive.  I wouldn't mind her coming with me!

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