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Anybody posted about the 13 siblings found chained in California home?


VaKim
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IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢ve been reading this thread on and off, and it certainly is horrifying, but I have to make the comment that govt. oversight is not the answer. As homeschoolers, we do not want more regulations and oversight. I know it is not exactly the same, but we were foster parents for 10 years or so as we were adopting our kids and I know all about govt. oversight and it is not pretty. It is invasive, at times abusive and all in all, pretty horrible. No, not all the social workers we dealt with were bad, but the bad ones were bad - judgemental, inflexible, power hungry. I got in trouble for not making my small children make their beds every morning and for allowing my own children run around barefoot in the springtime (we live in California). And thatĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s only a few examples. As homeschoolers we make calls all the time using our own judgement because of the special circumstances of our families, needs of our children and we do not need govt. workers coming through and judging those decisions and taking the right to decide for our own children away from us. The govt, is not benevolent, and I realize that situatiOne like these kids make us all Ă¢â‚¬Å“generous with the our rightsĂ¢â‚¬, but more oversight is not the answer.

More oversight is not the answer...

 

You may well be right.

 

But then, is there an answer?

 

Can we just wash our hands of everything and say that there is no possible recourse for children whose parents are set on abusive behavior?

 

That is not a rhetorical question.

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More oversight is not the answer...

 

You may well be right.

 

But then, is there an answer?

 

Can we just wash our hands of everything and say that there is no possible recourse for children whose parents are set on abusive behavior?

 

That is not a rhetorical question.

I think we start from the position that most parents, even including abusive parents, don't actually want to abuse their children.

 

Beyond improving current mental health , physical health, and financial services, I definitely do not have better answers.

Edited by Carrie12345
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One has to wonder how the 17 year old knew to use a cell phone and call for help - yet none of the older ones knew or were able to do so - for years - even when away from the house.

 

 

I had abusive -- she supported, even egged him on -- parents. And it's so hard to convey the brainwashing that goes on.

 

Through the years I figured that nobody would believe me and that I "needed" my father in life. That without him, I was a total goner. (He pushed this concept big time.)

 

I wasn't malnourished or a chained to a bed. (But that is the cry of abused people, "but he never broke a bone or put me in the hospital etc. etc.).

 

Very sad story.  That 17 year old should be so proud of herself.

 

Alley

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I'm some situations, abused children think the parent is all-powerful and that no one can help. In some cases, parents snow LE, social workers, doctors, etc. These kids learn no one will believe them.

 

I know I mentioned Gypsy Rose...she ran away once and her mother convinced LE to return her, that she was mentally and physically ill, etc...plus underage, when at that point, I think she might have been over 18.

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Aren't most victims of child abuse under the age of compulsory education?  Nearly every case of severe child abuse I see in the news is a baby or toddler.  There's probably been more toddlers beaten to death by mom's boyfriend in our metro area alone this year than school age kids being kept home and chained up in the entire country.  These stories are sensational and horrifying and utterly wrong, but there's a huge gap between birth and kindergarten where kids are practically invisible to any kind of oversight.

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If the goal of some kind of oversight for homeschoolers is to ensure that there is no abuse, then why does the oversight need to be tied to academic progress? I disagree with this on principle.

 

As a former elementary teacher, I saw that there were no consequences for students or teachers when students did not meet minimum benchmarks. Students were pushed up to the next grade. What is the result if a homeschool student doesn't meet benchmarks? Are they forced to enter public school? If there is a consequence for the homeschool child/family, then I ask why? It seems like a double standard.

 

Part of why I left teaching was because I did not like the push for all children to meet academic benchmarks at the same time. It's just unrealistic.

 

So again, if the goal of oversight of homeschool children is to ensure they are safe and well cared for, why not make the oversight related to that?

 

I realize that there will be those who argue that oversight to ensure academic progress should be present because there can be academic neglect in a homeschool family. That is not the issue being discussed here, though, so I don't think it's relevant to this discussion.

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I keep remembering this story

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case

 

as an example of the extremities some people will go to to control and abuse other humans.

 

There are no regulations that could stop that level of depravity.

 

I do think that more positive supports--physical and mental health care, better financial and social stability/security/safety nets--could only help in the broader range of less extreme cases.

Edited by maize
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So, I think what we're really asking is this:

Will changing homeschooling rules and laws change the outcome for families like this one that are extraordinarily twisted?

 

 

I agree with the previous poster who said that cases like this make us very generous with our rights.  After all, I belong to a "state" run program and my supervising teacher has to lay eyes on all of my children every quarter unless they physically take a class at the homeschool program.  I actually am not a fan of these programs, although I believe the one we have is outstanding, I also believe it is unique among its kind.

But would the law being changed to what I acquiesce to actually CHANGE the outcome for a family like this?  No.  I don't think so.  We've all heard stories of homeschooling in the 70s where people chose to live rural or keep their curtains closed, the kids coached to not go out during the school year, and to keep kids inside until school kids were outside of the school hours. 

No, a family like this is not going to register for supervision.  So it puts limits and laws on those of us who already obey the laws and regulations, those who actually educate their children, feed them, bathe them, care for their well-being. 

 

 

ETA: The Natalie Finn  is one that is close here.  :(  Mom had her in the school system.  She starved her there.  Teachers reported it.  Neighbors reported it.  Mom pulled her from school.  Abuse was reported again and again.  Natalie was starved to death.  It wasn't a homeschooling issue.  Mom was incredibly depraved, Dad sure helped, even after the abuse, and DHS totally dropped the ball.  But I admit, in this case, the neighbors did a good deed by reporting.  Unfortunately..... :(

Edited by BlsdMama
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I keep remembering this story

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case

 

as an example of the extremities some people will go to to control and abuse other humans.

 

There are no regulations that could stop that level of depravity.

 

I do think that more positive supports--physical and mental health care, better financial and social stability/security/safety nets--could only help in the broader range of less extreme cases.

 

 

Horrifying.

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IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢ve been reading this thread on and off, and it certainly is horrifying, but I have to make the comment that govt. oversight is not the answer. As homeschoolers, we do not want more regulations and oversight. I know it is not exactly the same, but we were foster parents for 10 years or so as we were adopting our kids and I know all about govt. oversight and it is not pretty. It is invasive, at times abusive and all in all, pretty horrible. No, not all the social workers we dealt with were bad, but the bad ones were bad - judgemental, inflexible, power hungry. I got in trouble for not making my small children make their beds every morning and for allowing my own children run around barefoot in the springtime (we live in California). And thatĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s only a few examples. As homeschoolers we make calls all the time using our own judgement because of the special circumstances of our families, needs of our children and we do not need govt. workers coming through and judging those decisions and taking the right to decide for our own children away from us. The govt, is not benevolent, and I realize that situatiOne like these kids make us all Ă¢â‚¬Å“generous with the our rightsĂ¢â‚¬, but more oversight is not the answer.

 

I can say that as a homeschooler I DO like the oversight in my state. I have NEVER heard ONE single case of a person following the rules for portfolio review having a problem with the government. Not once. Not even a rumor of one. 

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One possibility in this situation that I don't think anybody mentioned is that perhaps many of the family have genetic issues that have led to the stunted growth and childlike behaviour of the adult children. Perhaps one or both of the parents are slow (I especially wonder about the mother). Maybe, the parents started out with good intentions (we can be hopeful) but life got the better of them and work of caring for so many children, some of whom are perhaps disabled, just led to mental breakdown and bad choices in an attempt to control the chaos that had developed around them. Maybe this is why none of the adult children took action. Maybe the 17yo was more capable. Who knows, maybe the children that were chained to their beds are so disabled that they would have bolted from the home. I have a friend with such a profoundly autistic 10yo son that she has to lock him in his room every night or he would seriously injure himself. Our equivalent of CPS caught wind of this and without a proper investigation, because of a lack of social workers, they caused her no end of trouble. We just don't know what could have caused this disaster.

 

As far as what could be done by society to help these sorts of families I really don't think that there is a solution. Not every ill is society can be fixed with a tweak. As long as society chooses to remain detached from our physical neighbours these sorts of people will be able to hide. On second thought, maybe a totalitarian model would do the trick. The North Korean model of government probably allows for enough oversight of civilians to avoid this kind of abuse. Be careful what you ask for...

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ETA: The Natalie Finn  is one that is close here.  :(  Mom had her in the school system.  She starved her there.  Teachers reported it.  Neighbors reported it.  Mom pulled her from school.  Abuse was reported again and again.  Natalie was starved to death.  It wasn't a homeschooling issue.  Mom was incredibly depraved, Dad sure helped, even after the abuse, and DHS totally dropped the ball.  But I admit, in this case, the neighbors did a good deed by reporting.  Unfortunately..... :(

 

to me that's not a reason to say 'see oversight wouldn't work'. That's a failure of a completely inadequate social services and child protection system. 

 

It's an argument for more funding for child protection and a more robust system which provides free parenting classes (with transportation and coupons and other incentives to get parents to come), substance abuse programs, public health nurses which visit babies and children regularly and can refer families to counselling, nutrition programs and community support etc etc. 

 

Sure there is a handful of truly psychopathic scheming people who will go great lengths to abuse others. But the vast majority of abuse it seems to me happens in homes which are not like that, where small things, bad starts, lack of education, poor coping skills, poverty, cycles of abuse, addictions etc all come together in a storm of neglect or outright abuse.

 

At so many little steps along the way, interventions by the community & extended family & the state could make a difference. 

 

I believe we should be trying harder. 

 

& I don't think education is really the point here. I don't think homeschooling oversight is the issue - I believe we need way more robust social services, child protection and public health community outreach to all families, whether their kids are in school or not. 

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Several have said something along the lines of . . . increased regulations won't help, because abusers won't follow the regs.  And I wonder about this.  I don't know the answer, I'm just pondering the question.  If nothing else, wouldn't increased regulations help make a clearer distinction between who is following the law and who isn't, and thus point the authorities more clearly towards those families where intervention is needed?  Has anyone ever done a formal study comparing how effectively abusers are caught in states or countries were regulations are strict compared to those where it is lax?  I can't imagine who would fund such a study, but it would be interesting to know whether (and in what ways) regulation is effective.

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to me that's not a reason to say 'see oversight wouldn't work'. That's a failure of a completely inadequate social services and child protection system.

 

It's an argument for more funding for child protection and a more robust system which provides free parenting classes (with transportation and coupons and other incentives to get parents to come), substance abuse programs, public health nurses which visit babies and children regularly and can refer families to counselling, nutrition programs and community support etc etc.

 

Sure there is a handful of truly psychopathic scheming people who will go great lengths to abuse others. But the vast majority of abuse it seems to me happens in homes which are not like that, where small things, bad starts, lack of education, poor coping skills, poverty, cycles of abuse, addictions etc all come together in a storm of neglect or outright abuse.

 

At so many little steps along the way, interventions by the community & extended family & the state could make a difference.

 

I believe we should be trying harder.

 

& I don't think education is really the point here. I don't think homeschooling oversight is the issue - I believe we need way more robust social services, child protection and public health community outreach to all families, whether their kids are in school or not.

Ita re: more social support. But in the US we donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t choose to fund those things, or healthcare in case thereĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s mental health needs, or visiting nurses, or childcare help, or maternity leave, or medicines, etc. With such a large population and large area geographically to cover, we need to have more available resources.

 

As an aside, an I the only one who doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t want to visit Disney any time soon? Blech!

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I don't think regulations would have protected these kids, but would protect the reputation and rights of those who DO homeschool and follow the regulations. It's to protect us, not stop them. 

 

And the very last thing I would count on is for the government to protect me individually or as a family. Seriously. I am glad you like what you have in your state to prove academic achievement. (Do I remember right that you live in TN?) Personally, although my state falls somewhere in the middle in terms of oversight, I find it instrusive and unconstitutional. Remember the man in Aurora, Colorado 10+ years ago who successfully proved his dog's academic achievement? Yes, he lied on the paperwork, proving oversight is false. 

 

I'll say again that the government does a pretty craptastic job of protecting students in public schools--whether it's from physically or sexually abusive teachers, or bullies, or even their own parents.

 

I have nothing against public schools, my point is just that more government oversight of homeschoolers is a false sense of security for protecting children. 

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...if they're willing to lie about it.

Even parents with kids in brick and mortar school can use religious materials on the side.

 

There is nothing about having a kid enrolled in a public school that means a parent cannot also teach religion at home.

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Several have said something along the lines of . . . increased regulations won't help, because abusers won't follow the regs.  And I wonder about this.  I don't know the answer, I'm just pondering the question.  If nothing else, wouldn't increased regulations help make a clearer distinction between who is following the law and who isn't, and thus point the authorities more clearly towards those families where intervention is needed?  Has anyone ever done a formal study comparing how effectively abusers are caught in states or countries were regulations are strict compared to those where it is lax?  I can't imagine who would fund such a study, but it would be interesting to know whether (and in what ways) regulation is effective.

 

But in this country, you don't have to prove you are following the law. The government has to prove that you are not.

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...if they're willing to lie about it.

Lie about the curricula they use?

 

Our charter will of course only buy secular materials but you can use any resource you like to teach a subject.

We turn in one work sample a month from the four main subjects. If someone uses CLE for math they can just print a free worksheet that corresponds with what theyĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re doing (or cut the CLE logo off the bottom of the page and make a copy) and turn that in.

Our facilitator has a general idea of what curricula I use because I chat with her about stuff but thereĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s no record of it with the school.

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And the very last thing I would count on is for the government to protect me individually or as a family. Seriously. I am glad you like what you have in your state to prove academic achievement. (Do I remember right that you live in TN?) Personally, although my state falls somewhere in the middle in terms of oversight, I find it instrusive and unconstitutional. Remember the man in Aurora, Colorado 10+ years ago who successfully proved his dog's academic achievement? Yes, he lied on the paperwork, proving oversight is false. 

 

I'll say again that the government does a pretty craptastic job of protecting students in public schools--whether it's from physically or sexually abusive teachers, or bullies, or even their own parents.

 

I have nothing against public schools, my point is just that more government oversight of homeschoolers is a false sense of security for protecting children. 

 

I'm in Florida. It's a yearly portfolio evaluation with a certified teacher of your choice, or yearly testing proctored by a certified teacher, or a yearly assessment by a psychologist. In other words, one way or another, someone who is a mandatory reporter will put eyes on your kid once a year. 

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My state does a portfolio review, that you do with a certified teacher of your choice. So you find one that does evaluations (listed online, ask around, etc) and meet up either at your home, at theirs, or more often at a park or Starbucks or whatever. I know we met at a mall food court once. They sign off that your child is "making progress commensurate with ability". In other words, adequate progress will look different depending on the child, and their are no specific benchmarks or subjects to meet or cover. You can uncschool and "pass" the portfolio evaluation with no issues. Often people use a blog, or photo album showing what they did that year rather than a traditional collection of worksheets. You do have to keep a record of books/materials used, and a log of activities, but the state never asks to see them. The big thing is the portfolio. I like it because as much as introvert me hates meeting with someone, it does mean kids are having someone see them and chat with them each year.

We've never had anything but a really good experience with portfolio reviews.

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A few thoughts:


 


1)      Authorities recently arrested the parents.  They did not Ă¢â‚¬Å“get awayĂ¢â‚¬ with it indefinitely.


 


2)      The parents broke existing laws. Nothing against annual testing, but mandatory scholastic testing for school aged children seems unrelated to this bizarre situation. Some of their children were adults and beyond the age of mandatory education.


 


3)      IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m really glad that the day this story hit the news, my younger children and I saw numerous members of our extended family in a social setting where they had a chance to interact with us. And IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m glad my kids werenĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t wearing matching (or even coordinating) clothes.

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But in this country, you don't have to prove you are following the law. The government has to prove that you are not.

 

 

Yes, of course.  But I think I must be missing your point.  Or maybe I need to clarify my question.

 

Since the law basically required next-to-nothing of homeschoolers in their state, the family in this story complied with the law.  But if they had lived in a state which required, say, an annual home visit or something along those lines, it's quite possible (and I would say probable) that they wouldn't have.  So, when a neighbor (hypothetically) calls the authorities saying the kids are digging through the neighborhood trash cans, a much BIGGER red flag goes up if that person in a position of authority also sees that they are not complying with the laws than if they look, on paper at least, like law-abiding citizens.  It gives them an even stronger legal basis for investigating further, for intervening to make sure the kids are being cared for.

 

Doesn't it?  I mean, I guess what I'm asking is, wouldn't stricter homeschooling laws make it easier for those in authority to distinguish between law-abiding citizens who are taking reasonable care of their children, and those who have gone rogue and are putting their kids in danger?  In my state, the laws are so lax and so completely un-enforced that I know many homeschoolers who don't even bother complying with them, because they see no need, because there are ZERO consequences one way or the other.  And yet at the same time, abusers would have no reason NOT to comply with the law, because there are ZERO consequences one way or the other, so it's an easy way to make themselves look good on paper.  That seems to me to be a problem.  And I'm not convinced that we should just throw up our hands and say "oh well, nothing we can do about it."  I suspect we could do something, if we put our minds to it.  Though I admit it will probably take sharper minds than mine.   :001_smile:

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A few thoughts:

 

1)      Authorities recently arrested the parents.  They did not Ă¢â‚¬Å“get awayĂ¢â‚¬ with it indefinitely.

 

2)      The parents broke existing laws. Nothing against annual testing, but mandatory scholastic testing for school aged children seems unrelated to this bizarre situation. Some of their children were adults and beyond the age of mandatory education.

 

3)      IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m really glad that the day this story hit the news, my younger children and I saw numerous members of our extended family in a social setting where they had a chance to interact with us. And IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m glad my kids werenĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t wearing matching (or even coordinating) clothes.

 

 

1. They "got away with it" not indefinitely, but for literal decades, and for the entire lifetimes of many children. They "got away with it" long enough to permanently damage their children's health and future. Your saying they weren't able to do this indefinitely, as if that's proof that the existing system works, disturbs me.

 

3. There is ZERO risk to your homeschooled family, or my homeschooled family, because of this family's tragic crimes hitting the news. We have ZERO need to give thought to making sure lots of people see our children every day, or to never let them wear matching (or even coordinating) clothes. Your identification with this family, as if they represent you, disturbs me.

Edited by Tibbie Dunbar
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I'm in Florida. It's a yearly portfolio evaluation with a certified teacher of your choice, or yearly testing proctored by a certified teacher, or a yearly assessment by a psychologist. In other words, one way or another, someone who is a mandatory reporter will put eyes on your kid once a year. 

 

Or, at least it was then, when I lived there ten years ago, enrollment in a private school that does their regulation.  And I don't know if it was just in FL or maybe in VA, but taking school sponsored mandatory testing like ACT or SAT also worked.  

 

I lived and homeschooled in very non restrictive states  (though I am one to follow rules so I did do all the subjects required in CA) to really quite restrictive (AL) .  I am trying to think on horror cases that happened when we were in those states with homeschoolers  while I was there,   There was one case here in Al but I believe it really turned out to be a false claim of homeschooling- like the father claimed the kid was homeschooled but not actually following any of the rules we had in place then (I believe this case was about four years ago when my youngest was still homeschooled). 

 

But whenever we talk about more regulation, I always think of the family that I knew while they were homeschooling but most of the time the kids were in schools actually. Not only were they in schools, but they were regularly and very systematically undergone medical, dental, etc and because the abuse of the oldest adopted daughter was done before they adopted younger kids, there was extensive social service involvement too.  They came back to States and kids went back to school.  Lo and behold, Dad gets deployed to war zone and in writing home, which military is screening mail both to and from those areas, he had written about the sexual abuse in a letter to the daughter who was an older teen by then, So only with very intrusive measures and stupidity of Dad did any of the incest come to light.

This is one reason I am completely certain that we will continue to occasionally hear these horror stories regardless of homeschooling or regular schooling or no schooling. 

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My state requires a yearly test, that can be proctored by parents, and a yearly notice of intent. The penalty for not complying is that you are put on probation for one year. If you are not compliant by that time, then you have to enroll your kids in public school. The year before last, halfway through the schoolyear, I received a letter saying I was non compliant. I sent the exact same information in that I did before the deadline, because it was the exact forms and etc they request. I received an email in response saying that I was still non compliant. So, I sent them again, and then received a letter saying I had completed everything and yada yada. The year before, I didn't get the letter until December, even though I sent everything in when we moved here months before.

 

The problem seems to be a constant shift of the person responsible for the oversight. It's very frustrating, and it is pointless anyway because I could make up whatever I wanted to. They literally have no idea what children I have, or what their tests scores are. I am honest, but who would know if I wasn't?

 

I don't know the answer either, but I do feel like the regulation in my state is just a waste of time.

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Lie about the curricula they use?

 

Our charter will of course only buy secular materials but you can use any resource you like to teach a subject.

We turn in one work sample a month from the four main subjects. If someone uses CLE for math they can just print a free worksheet that corresponds with what theyĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re doing (or cut the CLE logo off the bottom of the page and make a copy) and turn that in.

Our facilitator has a general idea of what curricula I use because I chat with her about stuff but thereĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s no record of it with the school.

 

Are you saying that even though you buy materials from a Christian Publisher with your own funds (not charter funds) that you have to remove evidence of its Christianity before you submit it as evidence of completed work?   :blink:

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1. They "got away with it" not indefinitely, but for literal decades, and for the entire lifetimes of many children. They "got away with it" long enough to permanently damage their children's health and future. Your saying they weren't able to do this indefinitely, as if that's proof that the existing system works, disturbs me.

 

3. There is ZERO risk to your homeschooled family, or my homeschooled family, because of this family's tragic crimes hitting the news. We have ZERO need to give thought to making sure lots of people see our children every day, or to never let them wear matching (or even coordinating) clothes. Your identification with this family, as if they represent you, disturbs me.

Unfortunately in many people's minds it does. One story that tarnishes homeschoolers does reflect on public opinion that in turn influences the likely regulations we have to deal with and the likely reception our kids receive when they tell others we homeschool. Not everyone thinks critically about this kind of reporting they just see "homeschool" and "abuse" go together.

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Unfortunately in many people's minds it does. One story that tarnishes homeschoolers does reflect on public opinion that in turn influences the likely regulations we have to deal with and the likely reception our kids receive when they tell others we homeschool. Not everyone thinks critically about this kind of reporting they just see "homeschool" and "abuse" go together.

I agree that there are simpletons in the world.

 

I disagree with the fear-mongering and paranoia that are perpetuated in the homeschooling community, frequently with the sole aim of convincing hsers that

 

a. Everyone is out to get us, and

b. we are opposed to any increase of regulation or oversight.

 

Being responsible is enough. If hearing about an abusive family makes you batten down the hatches, circle the wagons, and mind your P's and Q's about your children's welfare (in terms of physical provision and safety, academics, socialization, community involvement, and health care), then answer me this:

 

Why don't you have all of that covered on an absolutely daily basis, no matter what your neighbor might be doing or thinking? You should already have your hatches, wagons, P's and Q's ready for scrutiny. You took on a big responsibility, being the sole provider of your children's daily needs. That's okay because you're doing it, right?

 

(Saving anyone the trouble: Please don't bother bringing up rabid CPS workers who remove homeschooled children over three unwashed cereal bowls in the sink at 7:30 in the morning. Links or it didn't happen. Also do not bother mentioning "the baby is the lesson" - for two years- or "we don't vax or trust doctors, it's oppressive to our rights to suggest a layer of protection in having regular health care providers who know our family well." Nope.)

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I agree that there are simpletons in the world.

 

I disagree with the fear-mongering and paranoia that are perpetuated in the homeschooling community, frequently with the sole aim of convincing hsers that

 

a. Everyone is out to get us, and

b. we are opposed to any increase of regulation or oversight.

 

Being responsible is enough. If hearing about an abusive family makes you batten down the hatches, circle the wagons, and mind your P's and Q's about your children's welfare (in terms of physical provision and safety, academics, socialization, community involvement, and health care), then answer me this:

 

Why don't you have all of that covered on an absolutely daily basis, no matter what your neighbor might be doing or thinking? You should already have your hatches, wagons, P's and Q's ready for scrutiny. You took on a big responsibility, being the sole provider of your children's daily needs. That's okay because you're doing it, right?

 

(Saving anyone the trouble: Please don't bother bringing up rabid CPS workers who remove homeschooled children over three unwashed cereal bowls in the sink at 7:30 in the morning. Links or it didn't happen. Also do not bother mentioning "the baby is the lesson" - for two years- or "we don't vax or trust doctors, it's oppressive to our rights to suggest a layer of protection in having regular health care providers who know our family well." Nope.)

Not everyone follows the same p q plan, and it doesn't equal abuse. I think the question is who gets to decide which p' s and q's are required, and who enforces it.

 

I have struggled frequently with figuring out that line between poor parenting, abuse, and my opinion. I don't know what to do about that either. It's probably worth it's own thread.

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I just think if there were laws like a yearly face to face meeting of some kind, in a casual way, and these abusers were NOT following that, that would at least distinguish them from actual homeschoolers to the general public.

 

most of them aren't actually homeschooling.  they say they are to get space to keep kids out of school.   if there was any sort of mandatory face to face, they'd find a way to skip out on that too.

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Are you saying that even though you buy materials from a Christian Publisher with your own funds (not charter funds) that you have to remove evidence of its Christianity before you submit it as evidence of completed work? :blink:

Yes, if you want to use it as your ONE work sample per month. This is a public charter school, we receive public school funds.
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 And how Disney and Las Vegas fit into it all too.  Did any of the "kids" try to speak up there?

 

 

 

In all honesty, if the children lived like that all of their lives, they may not have been aware that there was anything wrong.  I wouldn't be surprised if there are many people in different abusive situations where the perception of reality is distorted by personal experience. Just having grown up in a home with an alcoholic parent, I had to learn what a "normal" home is like and had to learn healthy problem solving behaviors, etc. as an adult. I imagine abuse survivors may have even more to learn and much more severe damage to attempt to undo. 

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I agree that there are simpletons in the world.

 

I disagree with the fear-mongering and paranoia that are perpetuated in the homeschooling community, frequently with the sole aim of convincing hsers that

 

a. Everyone is out to get us, and

b. we are opposed to any increase of regulation or oversight.

 

Being responsible is enough. If hearing about an abusive family makes you batten down the hatches, circle the wagons, and mind your P's and Q's about your children's welfare (in terms of physical provision and safety, academics, socialization, community involvement, and health care), then answer me this:

 

Why don't you have all of that covered on an absolutely daily basis, no matter what your neighbor might be doing or thinking? You should already have your hatches, wagons, P's and Q's ready for scrutiny. You took on a big responsibility, being the sole provider of your children's daily needs. That's okay because you're doing it, right?

 

(Saving anyone the trouble: Please don't bother bringing up rabid CPS workers who remove homeschooled children over three unwashed cereal bowls in the sink at 7:30 in the morning. Links or it didn't happen. Also do not bother mentioning "the baby is the lesson" - for two years- or "we don't vax or trust doctors, it's oppressive to our rights to suggest a layer of protection in having regular health care providers who know our family well." Nope.)

For me personally it's because of the way the news handle stories like this. They point to the fact that the garden was unkempt (the lawn looked like ours - maybe hadn't mowed in three weeks), there was rubbish piled up by the front door (there was a bit of scrunched up plastic that could have been police tape from the investigation), and "there were nappies stacked up in the window" (ummm. Yes two boxes of Unopened nappies on a cupboard seems normal). Now clearly the inside of the house was much worse than the outside.

 

While I feel like I do the best job I can providing for my kids physical and academic wellbeing, I'm untidy by nature. We have a farm. I feel like our lifestyle is beneficial to the kids (farm, animals, allowing the kids to be creative). but when I see reports that are so focussed on a very high standard of neat and tidy it does make me a bit paranoid.

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The comments on the NYT's article are enlightening. Nobody is talking about standardized test scores. They are talking about whether homeschoolers should be subject to in-home inspection versus homeschooling being outlawed entirely. 

 

Because let's be freaking honest here. The fact that homeschooling exists in the United States - the fact that homeschooling is legal and socially acceptable - that is what allows situations like this to occur. Because it is not possible for a parent to chain up and starve their children for years when they are enrolled in public school or private school or any kind of brick & mortar school. Homeschooling is what makes these extreme situations possible. Which is why so many of the recent horrific abuse cases have been people who are homeschooling or who claim to be homeschooling (which is all the same to the neighbors). 

 

If we lived in a country where all kids were required to attend a brick & mortar school, then it would be nearly impossible to make kids disappear in this manner. There would be additional eyes on the situation. There would be additional supports before things go so bad. And if the kids weren't going to school, the neighbors would be asking questions.

 

So I do think that we are headed toward greatly increased homeschooling regulations. We can complain about how most homeschoolers aren't like that, but if the public sees homeschooling as an option that makes abuse easier to hide then public opinion will be for increased regulation. 

 

Really, it's like flying. We can say that flying is safe. We can cite statistics about how much safer air travel is than driving or we can cite statistics about how rare hijackings are. But at the end of the day, a tragedy like 9-11 happens so we increase screening and security. As a society, we have agreed to give up some personal freedom when we fly in order to prevent those few horrific tragedies.

 

Personally, I would have no problem with an annual visit to lay eyes on my kids. In our state we already register, keep attendance, and test annually. I have seen first-hand how those simple requirements have done enormous good by preventing bad homeschooling situations or giving parents the information they need to get back on track. I can only see good coming from an annual visit to the home. 

 

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I agree that there are simpletons in the world.

 

I disagree with the fear-mongering and paranoia that are perpetuated in the homeschooling community, frequently with the sole aim of convincing hsers that

 

a. Everyone is out to get us, and

b. we are opposed to any increase of regulation or oversight.

 

Being responsible is enough. If hearing about an abusive family makes you batten down the hatches, circle the wagons, and mind your P's and Q's about your children's welfare (in terms of physical provision and safety, academics, socialization, community involvement, and health care), then answer me this:

 

Why don't you have all of that covered on an absolutely daily basis, no matter what your neighbor might be doing or thinking? You should already have your hatches, wagons, P's and Q's ready for scrutiny. You took on a big responsibility, being the sole provider of your children's daily needs. That's okay because you're doing it, right?

 

(Saving anyone the trouble: Please don't bother bringing up rabid CPS workers who remove homeschooled children over three unwashed cereal bowls in the sink at 7:30 in the morning. Links or it didn't happen. Also do not bother mentioning "the baby is the lesson" - for two years- or "we don't vax or trust doctors, it's oppressive to our rights to suggest a layer of protection in having regular health care providers who know our family well." Nope.)

Also I suspect that my view of child protective service workers is coloured by the one local to me who is jail for running an online paedophile ring.

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most of them aren't actually homeschooling.  they say they are to get space to keep kids out of school.   if there was any sort of mandatory face to face, they'd find a way to skip out on that too.

 

In our state, all homeschooling families must register with the state. There is a public, searchable database on the state dept of educ website with every registered homeschooling family. So if grandma or the next-door neighbor was concerned, they can go online and search to be sure our family is registered. If we aren't, there's a button they can click to file a complaint, and someone from the state will investigate.

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The comments on the NYT's article are enlightening. Nobody is talking about standardized test scores. They are talking about whether homeschoolers should be subject to in-home inspection versus homeschooling being outlawed entirely. 

 

Because let's be freaking honest here. The fact that homeschooling exists in the United States - the fact that homeschooling is legal and socially acceptable - that is what allows situations like this to occur. Because it is not possible for a parent to chain up and starve their children for years when they are enrolled in public school or private school or any kind of brick & mortar school. Homeschooling is what makes these extreme situations possible. Which is why so many of the recent horrific abuse cases have been people who are homeschooling or who claim to be homeschooling (which is all the same to the neighbors). 

 

If we lived in a country where all kids were required to attend a brick & mortar school, then it would be nearly impossible to make kids disappear in this manner. There would be additional eyes on the situation. There would be additional supports before things go so bad. And if the kids weren't going to school, the neighbors would be asking questions.

 

So I do think that we are headed toward greatly increased homeschooling regulations. We can complain about how most homeschoolers aren't like that, but if the public sees homeschooling as an option that makes abuse easier to hide then public opinion will be for increased regulation. 

 

Really, it's like flying. We can say that flying is safe. We can cite statistics about how much safer air travel is than driving or we can cite statistics about how rare hijackings are. But at the end of the day, a tragedy like 9-11 happens so we increase screening and security. As a society, we have agreed to give up some personal freedom when we fly in order to prevent those few horrific tragedies.

 

Personally, I would have no problem with an annual visit to lay eyes on my kids. In our state we already register, keep attendance, and test annually. I have seen first-hand how those simple requirements have done enormous good by preventing bad homeschooling situations or giving parents the information they need to get back on track. I can only see good coming from an annual visit to the home. 

 

I tend to agree with you. The counter argument is that the way people would get away with it is by the state never knowing the kids existed. Which has happened and will continue. Their argument is basically that evil people will be evil, and will be evil despite regulations.

 

In this case, I think that it's very likely a mandatory reporter would have said something. And that the parents didn't consider what they were doing to be abusive. So in this case, and possibly many like it, HS regulations would help.

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I just think if there were laws like a yearly face to face meeting of some kind, in a casual way, and these abusers were NOT following that, that would at least distinguish them from actual homeschoolers to the general public.

 

Yes, this is the downside of living in a free country where we get to make our own choices.

 

The idea that government intrusion and approval will somehow provide a safety net is a slippery slope. You cannot regulate everything, every infinitesimal thing. It will never be enough. If you start with homeschoolers, at what point do you even allow children to be at home? There are dangers there too.

 

This is a precious gift we have to live in this country. After 200+ years, why are we so eager to give it up?

 

People are evil. Bad things will happen. You cannot regulate that away. There will always be people who slip through the neverending cracks.

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I can say that as a homeschooler I DO like the oversight in my state. I have NEVER heard ONE single case of a person following the rules for portfolio review having a problem with the government. Not once. Not even a rumor of one. 

 

Don't even get me started on portfolio reviews.

We also have portfolio reviews in my state. I find them to be, largely, a waste of time.  It's great that you haven't heard of anyone having problems.  Last year they "trained" a bunch of new reviewers one county over and they started telling parents which curriculum they could and couldn't use for certain subjects.  That's not in the purview of the law here, at all. But new conscientious homeschoolers were, uh, discouraged to say the least. Here I have to show samples of academic work in the subjects that are in the law. In theory, I could have my kids do workbooks for a month or so and bring in two pages for each subject and they would never have any way of knowing that my kids weren't being educated.  The law is too vague to have any teeth, they don't actually get eyes on my kids, and since you don't necessarily get the same person reviewing your stuff every time, there's very little continuity to see academic progress even if that were a linear thing that you could show absolutely for every kid*.  Also the idea that an entity which I've deemed mostly incapable of educating my kids to my own satisfaction is the very entity checking to make sure I provide an adequate education.

 

*As an example, me trying to explain that my advanced math kiddo did Saxon 5/4 last year and I think technically could do pre-algebra, but I think he's too young, so he does his AMC prep math club plus linear algebra problems with his dad, but his actual math curriculum right at this moment is common core aligned with 4th grade?  Yeah, most of that pretty much goes unnoticed and they see that he's doing 4th grade level math in 5th grade and wonder why. I just think it verifies very little and yet tons of dollars are spent employing people to schedule these things, review them, etc, while their own schools could really use the money.

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As far as what could be done by society to help these sorts of families I really don't think that there is a solution. Not every ill is society can be fixed with a tweak. As long as society chooses to remain detached from our physical neighbours these sorts of people will be able to hide. On second thought, maybe a totalitarian model would do the trick. The North Korean model of government probably allows for enough oversight of civilians to avoid this kind of abuse. Be careful what you ask for...

 

 

How many freedoms are we willing to give up so that the few people with major problems might be found quicker? And when will the government's intrusion start to make and majority of "normal people" get completely fed up and need to get away?

Edited by wintermom
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Being responsible is enough. If hearing about an abusive family makes you batten down the hatches, circle the wagons, and mind your P's and Q's about your children's welfare (in terms of physical provision and safety, academics, socialization, community involvement, and health care), then answer me this:

 

Why don't you have all of that covered on an absolutely daily basis, no matter what your neighbor might be doing or thinking? You should already have your hatches, wagons, P's and Q's ready for scrutiny. You took on a big responsibility, being the sole provider of your children's daily needs. That's okay because you're doing it, right?

 

Not necessarily. Law and Justice aren't synonyms. 

 

I was held accountable for educational neglect during a time period that hadn't happened yet.

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One possibility in this situation that I don't think anybody mentioned is that perhaps many of the family have genetic issues that have led to the stunted growth and childlike behaviour of the adult children. Perhaps one or both of the parents are slow (I especially wonder about the mother). Maybe, the parents started out with good intentions (we can be hopeful) but life got the better of them and work of caring for so many children, some of whom are perhaps disabled, just led to mental breakdown and bad choices in an attempt to control the chaos that had developed around them. Maybe this is why none of the adult children took action. Maybe the 17yo was more capable. Who knows, maybe the children that were chained to their beds are so disabled that they would have bolted from the home. I have a friend with such a profoundly autistic 10yo son that she has to lock him in his room every night or he would seriously injure himself. Our equivalent of CPS caught wind of this and without a proper investigation, because of a lack of social workers, they caused her no end of trouble. We just don't know what could have caused this disaster.

 

As far as what could be done by society to help these sorts of families I really don't think that there is a solution. Not every ill is society can be fixed with a tweak. As long as society chooses to remain detached from our physical neighbours these sorts of people will be able to hide. On second thought, maybe a totalitarian model would do the trick. The North Korean model of government probably allows for enough oversight of civilians to avoid this kind of abuse. Be careful what you ask for...

 

the current owners of two of their previous homes have stated what they were like when they moved into them.

one was purchased as a foreclosure.  it was evident closets were used as cages.  the insides of the doors had scratches - the buyers thought they were made by animals, but are now rethinking.   they did take pictures of what the house was like when they got it.  (they would have had to do a lot to make it livable.)

the carpets were encrusted with dirt and filth.

that would have been several children ago.

this family has been living like this for years.

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Yes, this is the downside of living in a free country where we get to make our own choices.

 

The idea that government intrusion and approval will somehow provide a safety net is a slippery slope. You cannot regulate everything, every infinitesimal thing. It will never be enough. If you start with homeschoolers, at what point do you even allow children to be at home? There are dangers there too.

 

This is a precious gift we have to live in this country. After 200+ years, why are we so eager to give it up?

 

People are evil. Bad things will happen. You cannot regulate that away. There will always be people who slip through the neverending cracks.

I donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t know, to me this sounds a bit like youĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re saying that since we canĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t save *every* abused child, we shouldnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t bother trying to save more of them than we are right now. I donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t expect government regulations, on this or anything else, to be 100% effective. But that doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t mean they donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t help.

 

Personally, yes, I am indeed eager to give up my right to homeschool without ANY oversight if it would save even one single child from abuse. The phrase Ă¢â‚¬Å“freedom isnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t freeĂ¢â‚¬ applies here. Some freedoms come at too high a cost. The benefit of that freedom to me isnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t worth the cost of a childĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s security and safety.

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most of them aren't actually homeschooling.  they say they are to get space to keep kids out of school.   if there was any sort of mandatory face to face, they'd find a way to skip out on that too.

 

Right, but then it would be clear who is and isn't homeschooling. If there are no regulations, then by default those who are actually homeschooling and those just claiming to are going to be lumped together. 

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