Anybody posted about the 13 siblings found chained in California home?

[Guest]

It would be easy for someone to be being abused in a home in my neighborhood without me knowing it.

 

I just don't see or know that much about my neighbors' lives. I'm not even sure how many people are currently living in the house next door. There are four or five cars that come and go, several adults, and at least one kid...but they could easily have seven more kids hidden away inside without me noticing.

 

Do you keep close tabs on all the comings and goings of your neighbors?

This is part of my thinking as well and also, at what point does someone decide this goes from “weird, but not my business†to “I have to have someone check into this.â€

 

There’s a house not far from where I live; I pass by it regularly. I don’t know what all is going on there, but from the outside, it don’t look good. At minimum, there is a hoarding issue. The yard is frightful. The house is dilapidated. There is a rigged-in addition in the back that was never sided, has moss growing on it, and the “roofline†bows down like it is going to cave in. I see an assortment of dogs around there, and an old guy sporting a confederate flag. If it ever comes out in the news that something messed up is going on there, I won’t be surprised, but as merely a passer-by, what would I do? Call police non-emergency and say it’s messy and weird there?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

And yet so many kids seem to go through the school system in abusive homes or environments without anything being done.

I think there's something to what Lisa R. is saying about it being unlikely that all thirteen kids would escape anyone's notice in school; it's not like one child being moved frequently.

[Ausmumof3]

This is part of my thinking as well and also, at what point does someone decide this goes from “weird, but not my business†to “I have to have someone check into this.â€

 

There’s a house not far from where I live; I pass by it regularly. I don’t know what all is going on there, but from the outside, it don’t look good. At minimum, there is a hoarding issue. The yard is frightful. The house is dilapidated. There is a rigged-in addition in the back that was never sided, has moss growing on it, and the “roofline†bows down like it is going to cave in. I see an assortment of dogs around there, and an old guy sporting a confederate flag. If it ever comes out in the news that something messed up is going on there, I won’t be surprised, but as merely a passer-by, what would I do? Call police non-emergency and say it’s messy and weird there?

Yep. And this is one area where school helps. Like we have weird hoarder neighbours. Some of their practices seem spiritually abusive. (Telling one of the kids that the Holy Spirit forbade her to marry the guy she was going to marry who they didn't like because he was Indian for example). But they had enough contact with normal to have normal jobs and normal lives and move away from that. If they'd been homeschooled it could have been a different story.

 

I think balancing that stuff with my feeling that homeschooling can be the best option for many kids when the parents are genuinely invested in their well being can be quite difficult.

 

And the when something actually crosses a line. I have a couple of friends whose care for the kids hasn't always been optimal. Heck at times my own care hasn't been perfect. Days when it's too hard to fight about hair brushing and a hair band seems like a good option. Identifying the point at which stuff like this crosses the line from normal family going through a busy rough time to abusive is sometime hard. It's clear in hindsight how wrong things were bit not in the middle of things getting worse. Without being more in each other's lives and pockets I don't see how that will change.

[Ausmumof3]

I think there's something to what Lisa R. is saying about it being unlikely that all thirteen kids would escape anyone's notice in school; it's not like one child being moved frequently.

We had this case here (triggering not for the faint of heart!)

 

https://www.mamamia.com.au/adelaide-house-of-horrors/

 

As far as I know the kids weren't homeschooled or registered as homeschoolers. I'm not sure if they were at traditional school either.

[Sandwalker]

That level of crazy makes me fear the worst. I wonder if the youngest child/ren will be DNA tested to see if the older daughters are the mother(s.) I heard about a case where the father turned out to be both the father and grandfather.

Oh how awful

[creekland]

One has to wonder how the 17 year old knew to use a cell phone and call for help - yet none of the older ones knew or were able to do so - for years - even when away from the house.

 

I have this feeling of a mini North Korea playing out in that one family.  It's not uncommon for one adult to have mental illness that could lead to such a thing, but two in the same house?  And how Disney and Las Vegas fit into it all too.  Did any of the "kids" try to speak up there?

 

Now I'm wondering if some of those "troll" threads in the past were really trolls - esp the one with the very large family and unbelievable tales.  Does anyone else remember that?

[hornblower]

This is part of my thinking as well and also, at what point does someone decide this goes from “weird, but not my business†to “I have to have someone check into this.â€

 

There’s a house not far from where I live; I pass by it regularly. I don’t know what all is going on there, but from the outside, it don’t look good. At minimum, there is a hoarding issue. The yard is frightful. The house is dilapidated. There is a rigged-in addition in the back that was never sided, has moss growing on it, and the “roofline†bows down like it is going to cave in. I see an assortment of dogs around there, and an old guy sporting a confederate flag. If it ever comes out in the news that something messed up is going on there, I won’t be surprised, but as merely a passer-by, what would I do? Call police non-emergency and say it’s messy and weird there?

 

 

Our municipalities have bylaws for this- illegal or unsafe construction, hoarding, animal neglect... Don't yours?

[Xahm]

Our town would encourage us to report that situation to code enforcement. I don't know if that's handled the same everywhere.

This is part of my thinking as well and also, at what point does someone decide this goes from “weird, but not my business†to “I have to have someone check into this.â€

 

There’s a house not far from where I live; I pass by it regularly. I don’t know what all is going on there, but from the outside, it don’t look good. At minimum, there is a hoarding issue. The yard is frightful. The house is dilapidated. There is a rigged-in addition in the back that was never sided, has moss growing on it, and the “roofline†bows down like it is going to cave in. I see an assortment of dogs around there, and an old guy sporting a confederate flag. If it ever comes out in the news that something messed up is going on there, I won’t be surprised, but as merely a passer-by, what would I do? Call police non-emergency and say it’s messy and weird there?

The New York Times has a brief piece discussing this story and whether more oversight is needed for California private schools and home schools in general.

[wonderchica]

 

I have this feeling of a mini North Korea playing out in that one family. It's not uncommon for one adult to have mental illness that could lead to such a thing, but two in the same house? And how Disney and Las Vegas fit into it all too. Did any of the "kids" try to speak up there?

 

Now I'm wondering if some of those "troll" threads in the past were really trolls - esp the one with the very large family and unbelievable tales. Does anyone else remember that?

I don’t think it’s that uncommon for people with mental illness to “find†each other and get together. They may have different types or severity levels, but the mental illness may be something they have in common that sparks a friendship/eventual romantic relationship (even if they aren’t cognizant enough to realize that’s what’s drawing them together).

[Ausmumof3]

Our municipalities have bylaws for this- illegal or unsafe construction, hoarding, animal neglect... Don't yours?

Ours does but nothing was done about our hoarding neighbour even after the first house burnt down and he rebuilt (and still hasn't cleaned up the trash)

Edited January 17, 2018 by Ausmumof3

[Katy]

I think it's incredibly common for mentally ill people to find each other and exacerbate each other's conditions.  Healthy people wouldn't put up with the types of things that the mentally ill put up with.  I think it's safe to say that most of the children in foster care in the USA have a mother with mental illness.  Whether the father does too, or there's no father figure at all, or a series of men, or addiction is always secondary to mental illness.

 

It would be very interesting to track the impact of breaking down federal funding for mental health in the 80's with foster care.  I know there have been studies done on the prison population, but I don't know to what degree the impact on children has been studied.

 

Unfortunately with this family the story is extreme enough to make the news due to the number of children involved, but it's not a rare situation to have children systematically abused and deprived of food.  I might go so far as to say it's fairly common among children in the foster system.  And I think one of the reasons they don't yank more children away from families with questionable situations is that there aren't enough foster parents. At the same time, it can be very difficult to care for the kids after having been raised in situations like that.  There are no easy answers.

 

 

ETA: It's also very easy to be drawn in by a charismatic person with a personality disorder, not realize they have one, have them slowly turn abusive, and to develop a sort of Stockholm syndrome where you believe what they say.  You might technically not be mentally ill, but be so brainwashed common sense or a typical conscious doesn't strike you as normal they way it would without that relationship.

And I would absolutely not be surprised to find out the youngest child is a product of incest.  Physical and sexual abuse have an approximate 80% correlation, at least according to one therapist I know.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Katy

[hornblower]

 

 

Unfortunately with this family the story is extreme enough to make the news due to the number of children involved, but it's not a rare situation to have children systematically abused and deprived of food.  I might go so far as to say it's fairly common among children in the foster system.  And I think one of the reasons they don't yank more children away from families with questionable situations is that there aren't enough foster parents. At the same time, it can be very difficult to care for the kids after having been raised in situations like that.  There are no easy answers.

 

this is terribly sad :( 

[Katy]

this is terribly sad :(

 

Yeah.  Honestly I suspect the solution is somewhere between giving children constitutional rights and forcing abusers into mental health care.  Neither of which is there strong political or fiscal force for at the moment.

[HS Mom in NC]

I agree that being in a school would mean it's far more likely some sort of intervention would have happened earlier.  But, creating annual testing for homeschoolers isn't likely to solve that problem. And I have young adult extended family members who had been abused for most of their childhoods who did attend school and it was missed.

There are was case of horrific abuse that killed a girl here.  She had lived with her family in another state and attended school.  CPS became involved but didn't remove the child at the first visit because you can't yank a kid out of their home until you figure out if the accusations have any validity to them or not.  After the first visit the family immediately moved to AZ and didn't put the kid back in school.  They claimed to be homeschooling when the child died.  Of course, there wasn't any actual homeschooling going on.  As I understand it, they weren't even legally registered as homeschoolers, and even if they were, they could easily move to stay under the radar. Mandatory testing here wouldn't have solved that problem. 

We have to be careful that we don't assume people saying testing won't solve it are just a bunch of homeschooling zealots.  Before you go suggesting oversight, be prepared to explain in specific detail what oversights you mean in practical terms taking into account that abusers don't respect the law and will be quick to go under the radar.  "Policy as psychotherapy" usually relies on unspoken subtext. It makes people feel good about displaying their righteous indignation but it's usually done in vague terms. We need to state explicitly how any proposed oversight (I'm not categorically opposed, by the way, so again, don't make assumptions) will solve these real world problems.  Remember, the only people who should be proposing and passing laws and establishing policy are no-nonsense, practical, hard core, realists. It's time homeschoolers started hammering this kind of thing out because these cases get a lot of publicity, and we all know, as stated upthread, that these parents are like roaches. If you see one, you know there is an unknown number yet to be discovered. So what would actually work?

[Rosie_0801]

And yet so many kids seem to go through the school system in abusive homes or environments without anything being done.

 

Sure. Even if CPS cares enough to ring and says "Hey Mandatory Reporter! Have you noticed anything that you are legally obliged to report but haven't?" they are going to say no. 

 

But with 13 kids, it's a bit harder to ignore.

[RootAnn]

Do you keep close tabs on all the comings and goings of your neighbors?

Actually, yes. We usually know who is on vacation, who has which relatives visiting, and what schedule certain neighbors are working (on call doctor, for example). House across the street was on the market for years - and sometimes had renters. We usually knew when people were there to see it and when the renters sublet the basement.

 

Very small town. And, we're the nosy type. (Plus, my kids are outside a ton if they can be.)

[justasque]

This is part of my thinking as well and also, at what point does someone decide this goes from “weird, but not my business†to “I have to have someone check into this.â€

 

There’s a house not far from where I live; I pass by it regularly. I don’t know what all is going on there, but from the outside, it don’t look good. At minimum, there is a hoarding issue. The yard is frightful. The house is dilapidated. There is a rigged-in addition in the back that was never sided, has moss growing on it, and the “roofline†bows down like it is going to cave in. I see an assortment of dogs around there, and an old guy sporting a confederate flag. If it ever comes out in the news that something messed up is going on there, I won’t be surprised, but as merely a passer-by, what would I do? Call police non-emergency and say it’s messy and weird there?

 

I've reported bad conditions in two different cities.  In city one, I called weekly about debris and a non-functioning streetlight in front of an empty building.  I had a notebook and wrote down the details of my call each time, and told them I'd be following up in a week.  It took months to see results, but eventually the streetlight was fixed and the debris was removed several times.  I chose to report this condition because it created unsafe conditions (no lights in an iffy area).  In city two, I've been reporting a dilapidated house with an about-to-cave in porch roof.  Every month or so, I walk by the house, take photos, and upload them to the city's site, noting the changes from the previous photos.  They did send someone out to board up the front entrance about a year ago.  But they've done nothing else.  I've been reporting this location because I am concerned that when the porch roof falls, which it will soon, someone could get hurt.  (There are also exposed broken electrical fixtures, and other hazardous conditions, as well as some evidence of someone squatting in the building.)

See if your town has a department in charge of making sure buildings aren't in a hazardous condition, and consider calling in your concerns.  Where there is hoarding and/or neglect, there may also be someone in need of eldercare services.

[ThisIsTheDay]

The idea of overseeing homeschool families with the intent of preventing abuse is absurd. This is not a homeschool family. It is an abusive family. There are hundreds of other parents/families who do horrible things to their kids. The news never adds, "And the family reportedly sends their children to public school."

 

On the flip side of that, not a week goes by without it being reported that a public school teacher has seduced yet another teenaged student. It's not even shocking anymore. Perhaps any legislaton should be looking more closely at how to oversee teachers to prevent this abuse.

 

$140K is quite a nice salary in Perris, even for a family of 14. In 2010, the median household income was $46,435.

 

While the kids don't appear to be unusually thin, they certainly do not look their age. I even wondered if the news that wrong. I looked the kids' dobs up online (found on California and Texas Birth Indexes). The oldest daughter appears to have been born before the parents married. If I'm remembering correctly, the father is about 7 years older than the mother. I look at the Disneyland photo and can't wrap my head around the fact that the five oldest kids were really that age.

 

It is a terrible story, even odder than most that we see like this. There is always mental illness involved on some level, isn't there, and yet this man was able to maintain a high paying job for a long time. That does not seem typical (I know, two other cases were mentioned where the fathers had similar jobs).

 

Sidetracking. His hair. Is it real or a wig?

 

 

[Corraleno]

I get the vibe that they were maybe starving the kids to try and keep them childlike for some reason. So bizarre.

That's exactly what I thought. Malnutrition not only stunts growth, it delays puberty and can prevent menstruation. When adult women who are supposedly in their 20s are dressed like little girls in pink plaid dresses, white tights, and mary janes, there is clearly more going on there than just not being able to afford food. The fact that the cops initially thought the 17 yr old was about 10, and thought that even the adults in their 20s were minor children, suggests that these are not just short, skinny, but otherwise normal-looking (and normal-acting) teens and adults.

 

The mom's sister, who is a Christian motivational speaker and author, wrote in one of her books that she was sexually abused for years as a child/teen by someone she "loved and trusted so much" and also that their mother was in an abusive relationship. She didn't say whether her sister was also abused, but if the mother was abused I wonder if maybe she is trying to "protect" her kids by keeping them locked up at home in a sort of permanent state of prepubescent innocence? She is also apparently somewhat obsessed with Disney, and two of their cars have Disney-related custom license plates. There is a photo of her, from just a year or two ago, dressed as Snow White. It's just all so weird and twisted and heartbreaking.

[OneStepAtATime]

I'm cutting the neighbors some serious slack for not realizing there was abuse going on.  FWIW, 3/4 of my neighborhood could be abusing their kids.  How would I know?  Unless it was easily spotted bruising around the face area I might not have a clue. 

 

• Nearly everyone parks in their garage so I don't see them when they enter or leave their homes. 
• Driving by in their cars you can't really see much of anything.  Certainly not well enough to confirm or even suspect long term abuse like may have happened here. 
• Hardly any kids play in the front yards.  If they are out playing (rare) it is behind 8' high fencing.
• There are no block parties anymore. 
• If I do see any neighbors it is usually just whichever adult went to get the mail, from a distance, as they briefly walk out then back in again.  We may or may not wave at each other. 
• Meaningful contact is rare, even with our cousins that live behind us.  If they go out of town they text.  I only see their children once in a rare blue moon because they are much younger than mine and both parents work weird hours. 
• The couple that live across the street from us claim to have no children.  I have no reason to believe they lied but they certain could have kids chained inside their home.  I don't go peeking in their windows. 
• A family used to live a couple of houses down.  I would see them working in their yard.  They had a teenage daughter that was very pale, very thin, and barely said boo to me.  Should I have reported her?  Maybe but I was a very pale, very thin teenager, too.  If some random neighbor I didn't know happened to be walking by I might have little interest in interrupting that neighbor's walk to strike up a conversation either.
• As for digging through trash, unless they were doing it really often the odds are I wouldn't even see them doing it.  I don't hang out in the alley where the trash is picked up.  Even if I did see it, unless i saw them doing it multiple times, I would assume they were trying to find something that got thrown away accidentally (which I have also done).

I just think it may be harder than some here are claiming to spot this type of abuse.

 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

I live in the suburbs.  There are 1,000 houses in my subdivision.  I have seen 4 kids play outside in the 3 years I've been here.  I know there are other kids in the neighborhood because we have an annual Halloween block party across the street at and there were scores of kids at it and all the parents introduced themselves to each other and talked about which houses they lived in.  Other than that event no one plays outside other than those 4 kids-2 early elementary school and 2 middle school kids. All the houses here have 5+ bedrooms, so young families are the target market. Hundreds of people could be abusing their kids and there's no way the neighbors would know.  I met 1 next door neighbor and the people who host the Halloween block party.  The adults don't interact with each other.

I was a thin, pale teen. (5'2", 95#s until I was 5 months pregnant with oldest when I was 23 years old.)    I was on a doctor supervised diet to gain weight for a year in high school-it didn't work even though I was careful to follow it.  I was a size 0/2 until my 4th month of pregnancy, topped out at 130#s at 9 months pregnant, and was back to my size 2 jeans 7 days after giving birth.  After my second child was born 2 years later I was back into size 2 jeans within a month of giving birth. Some people are just naturally pale and thin. I have pale green eyes and a few red freckles because of my Scandinavian ancestry. My metabolism didn't slow down until I was in my mid 30s.

[Ausmumof3]

I agree that being in a school would mean it's far more likely some sort of intervention would have happened earlier. But, creating annual testing for homeschoolers isn't likely to solve that problem. And I have young adult extended family members who had been abused for most of their childhoods who did attend school and it was missed.

 

There are was case of horrific abuse that killed a girl here. She had lived with her family in another state and attended school. CPS became involved but didn't remove the child at the first visit because you can't yank a kid out of their home until you figure out if the accusations have any validity to them or not. After the first visit the family immediately moved to AZ and didn't put the kid back in school. They claimed to be homeschooling when the child died. Of course, there wasn't any actual homeschooling going on. As I understand it, they weren't even legally registered as homeschoolers, and even if they were, they could easily move to stay under the radar. Mandatory testing here wouldn't have solved that problem.

 

We have to be careful that we don't assume people saying testing won't solve it are just a bunch of homeschooling zealots. Before you go suggesting oversight, be prepared to explain in specific detail what oversights you mean in practical terms taking into account that abusers don't respect the law and will be quick to go under the radar. "Policy as psychotherapy" usually relies on unspoken subtext. It makes people feel good about displaying their righteous indignation but it's usually done in vague terms. We need to state explicitly how any proposed oversight (I'm not categorically opposed, by the way, so again, don't make assumptions) will solve these real world problems. Remember, the only people who should be proposing and passing laws and establishing policy are no-nonsense, practical, hard core, realists. It's time homeschoolers started hammering this kind of thing out because these cases get a lot of publicity, and we all know, as stated upthread, that these parents are like roaches. If you see one, you know there is an unknown number yet to be discovered. So what would actually work?

Where I live there's an annual home visit.

 

I don't like the idea of academic testing of any type but having a real life person see the kids once a year can at least verify that they seem healthy, clean and cared for.

 

As a separate thing, a more connected society might help.

[Tanaqui]

I don't like the idea of academic testing of any type but having a real life person see the kids once a year can at least verify that they seem healthy, clean and cared for.

 

I have almost the opposite view! I, personally, would not like having to see somebody every year (because I just don't always like people) but I strongly believe that it's reasonable for the children to be academically assessed yearly, through a standardized test OR a portfolio OR (at least in the younger years) having somebody actually come in and talk to them and confirm that they know what they're supposed to know. (With, of course, accommodations made for children who are homeschooled due to illness or a disability that affects learning.) This is not just to catch people who really aren't educating their kids, but also to help those who might think they're doing a better job than they really are. I'm sure a lot of people whose kids are missing out on some education think they're doing okay because they don't have quite enough context to know better. It does happen.

 

However, even though I personally would be uncomfortable meeting somebody, I'm more okay with it on a policy level, as well as okay with a law requiring that all children have a medical, dental, and vision check-up every single year. Obviously these laws won't catch hard-core abusers who just want to be cruel to their children and are willing to lie to do that, but we can catch people who are less, um, determined.

[LMD]

Where I live there's an annual home visit.

 

I don't like the idea of academic testing of any type but having a real life person see the kids once a year can at least verify that they seem healthy, clean and cared for.

 

As a separate thing, a more connected society might help.

I'd prefer a carrot approach. Annual funds to go towards schooling contingent on showing proof of doctor visit, dentist visit and one other outside of the family professional adult. I don't want a visit from the education department or testing. Portfolios are too easy to fake. Edited January 17, 2018 by LMD

[Ausmumof3]

I have almost the opposite view! I, personally, would not like having to see somebody every year (because I just don't always like people) but I strongly believe that it's reasonable for the children to be academically assessed yearly, through a standardized test OR a portfolio OR (at least in the younger years) having somebody actually come in and talk to them and confirm that they know what they're supposed to know. (With, of course, accommodations made for children who are homeschooled due to illness or a disability that affects learning.) This is not just to catch people who really aren't educating their kids, but also to help those who might think they're doing a better job than they really are. I'm sure a lot of people whose kids are missing out on some education think they're doing okay because they don't have quite enough context to know better. It does happen.

 

However, even though I personally would be uncomfortable meeting somebody, I'm more okay with it on a policy level, as well as okay with a law requiring that all children have a medical, dental, and vision check-up every single year. Obviously these laws won't catch hard-core abusers who just want to be cruel to their children and are willing to lie to do that, but we can catch people who are less, um, determined.

My reasoning with this is that many home school styles simply do not follow a traditional academic pattern of learning. My older kids would have tested somewhat poorly on literacy around grade 2 and yet by grade 5 are well above average. That's because instead of the drill and kill style of school we used a tonne of living literature and gentle reading instruction. Academic development is non linear in so many ways that I would really really hate for homeschoolers to be held to strict public school standards that may be harmful or unrealistic.

 

Education should absolutely by happening but there are multiple approaches and the public school styles can be a bit ridiculous at times.

[Ausmumof3]

I'd prefer a carrot approach. Annual funds to go towards schooling contingent on showing proof of doctor visit, dentist visit and one other outside of the family professional adult. I don't want a visit from the education department or testing. Portfolios are too easy to fake.

It probably helps that our education department lady has always pro homeschooling and more about advocating for homeschoolers and helping provide access to resources than about checking compliance.

 

I just feel that as people we can often get a fuller picture from actually talking to someone than from filling in paperwork or checking boxes.

 

I do get it - I'm an introvert and I do get anxious about the visits but I feel that's a small price to pay compared to the risk of losing the right to homeschool altogether because there was one too many families that could abuse their kids due to the lack of oversight.

[gardenmom5]

One has to wonder how the 17 year old knew to use a cell phone and call for help - yet none of the older ones knew or were able to do so - for years - even when away from the house.

 

I have this feeling of a mini North Korea playing out in that one family.  It's not uncommon for one adult to have mental illness that could lead to such a thing, but two in the same house?  And how Disney and Las Vegas fit into it all too.  Did any of the "kids" try to speak up there?

 

Now I'm wondering if some of those "troll" threads in the past were really trolls - esp the one with the very large family and unbelievable tales.  Does anyone else remember that?

 

when someone grows up with systemic abuse, they think it's normal.   they don't question.  desperation can force the question - but it is still against training.

they were trained to not even look if a neighbor spoke to them - they are not going to talk to a stranger as disneyland.

 

 

 

 

ETA: It's also very easy to be drawn in by a charismatic person with a personality disorder, not realize they have one, have them slowly turn abusive, and to develop a sort of Stockholm syndrome where you believe what they say.  You might technically not be mentally ill, but be so brainwashed common sense or a typical conscious doesn't strike you as normal they way it would without that relationship.

 

And I would absolutely not be surprised to find out the youngest child is a product of incest.  Physical and sexual abuse have an approximate 80% correlation, at least according to one therapist I know.

 

a weak mind can be drawn to the charisma of a pd - by the time they realize something is wonky (IF they do) - its too late

for kids born into that, they think it is normal.   there have been any number of threads about the subject  by those who came from a parent/grandparent with a PD and the impact that has.

[HS Mom in NC]

Where I live there's an annual home visit.

 

I don't like the idea of academic testing of any type but having a real life person see the kids once a year can at least verify that they seem healthy, clean and cared for.

 

As a separate thing, a more connected society might help.

 

People could still just avoid registering as homeschoolers and live under the radar.  You haven't pointed out any way to solve that primary problem.

 

A connected society just doesn't really work anymore.  Most people don't share the same faith, and even if they do, Christians for example aren't all attending the same local churches.  The church I go to is too big-we have hundreds of attendees in the 3 years since it started, so getting to know people isn't easy even if you're attending the same service each Sunday.  We have 4 to choose from, 2 in English, 1 in Spanish, and 1 in Vietnamese.  There are dozens of local churches in each denomination to choose from and we have scores of denominations here.  Everyone works a different work schedule, kids in the same family often attend different schools, parents are busy in the evenings carting kids to different activities, families are divorced or never married, neighbors all work in different cities, everyone has different hobbies and activities when they're not working.  People in metro areas have choices and transportation now, so they all make different choices.  For those living in small communities with one ps, a couple of churches, and local work, you might be able to have a stronger sense of community, but you also have fewer choices for employment and education, which is why most people who have the option choose larger cities to live in. 

 

Even if family is local it doesn't mean they always will be.  The COL here has skyrocketed and we're not buying into the volatile housing market that's bubbling again.  We're relocating across the country with our adult children and their spouses because it makes economic sense-they're starting out and we're planning how we'll retire in another 15-20 years. When our parents came here 40+ years ago it made sense for them to live in the country, work at the same company for several decades and retire here.  Those days are over. Now the small towns like the one I grew up in have grown into huge cities (ten thousand to a quarter million in my 44 years) just like the other small towns in the area and it's all one big metro area of a few million people.  Society changed and it's not going back to the way it was. All the agricultural land is suburbs.  Everyone is busy with a customized life. There is a wide variety of subcultures with their own social norms.

 

Even then people who want to abuse their kids could just bow out of socializing in the more connected society.  That's the root of it-the kind of person most at risk to harm their kids doesn't want to be connected to society.  They want to live in their own little isolated world.  You can offer them all sorts of interactions with others, but they won't participate.  They want to control every detail and dominate their kids in every way and the way they do that is by making their house their entire society so they can rule with an iron fist.

 

The state can't keep up with the kids in state custody.  How will they keep up with kids out of their custody? According to my state's governor today, the state took in 11,000 foster kids last year in addition to the kids already in care.  We've had ongoing problems with staff trying to keep up with them. My county has just under 10,000 legally registered homeschooled kids.  There are about that many again out of the county in the rest of the state.  Who is going to follow up on those kids for annual visits? We have an opioid crisis here.  The foster system is seeing 40% annual increases in kids in state care.  The schools are screaming for more funds and more staff-we have high numbers of student teachers being given classrooms of kids because we don't have enough qualified teachers to fill the need.  The fact is we just don't have the resources hire people to check on all the homeschooled kids once a year even if it would work.  Far too many people think the state and federal government have excess funds they can use for all these new ideas.  Good ideas, bad ideas, it doesn't matter. They don't have the resources.  We're stretched too thin as it now.

 

[gardenmom5]

 

 

I was a thin, pale teen. (5'2", 95#s until I was 5 months pregnant with oldest when I was 23 years old.)    I was on a doctor supervised diet to gain weight for a year in high school-it didn't work even though I was careful to follow it. 

 

as a tween/teen,  2dd was also super skinny.  you could could her ribs in her back, and watch the muscles ripple.   she's still not a big eater and she's in her 30's.  

dudeling is super skinny - and very knobby back.   it's hard to get him to eat, and a niece who had so little body fat - she couldn't swim because of the lack of body fat.  her parents are both tiny - so she fit.  she's in her 30's.

 

Where I live there's an annual home visit.

 

I don't like the idea of academic testing of any type but having a real life person see the kids once a year can at least verify that they seem healthy, clean and cared for.

 

As a separate thing, a more connected society might help.

 

abusers would find a way to escape that type of oversight.   parents are already supposedly taking their kids to a dr for well-child checks and other appointments.   I doubt these parents did.

mandating it wont' change much.

[Tanaqui]

My reasoning with this is that many home school styles simply do not follow a traditional academic pattern of learning. My older kids would have tested somewhat poorly on literacy around grade 2 and yet by grade 5 are well above average. That's because instead of the drill and kill style of school we used a tonne of living literature and gentle reading instruction. Academic development is non linear in so many ways that I would really really hate for homeschoolers to be held to strict public school standards that may be harmful or unrealistic.

 

Where I live, NYS, homeschooled children have to EITHER score in the 33rd percentile OR show a year's worth of growth from one test to the next, even if their previous test was really low. And you chose what test to use, and you don't have to test until the 5th grade.

That's a really low bar. My only complaint is that sometimes I'm scared at how easy it is to pass it!

 

(Of course, I'm all for having reasonable standards! But with reasonable, realistic standards, you still wouldn't want to test?)

[LMD]

It probably helps that our education department lady has always pro homeschooling and more about advocating for homeschoolers and helping provide access to resources than about checking compliance.

 

I just feel that as people we can often get a fuller picture from actually talking to someone than from filling in paperwork or checking boxes.

 

I do get it - I'm an introvert and I do get anxious about the visits but I feel that's a small price to pay compared to the risk of losing the right to homeschool altogether because there was one too many families that could abuse their kids due to the lack of oversight.

Yeah see I don't trust our ed department people at all.

 

I agree with your second paragraph, which is why I think that encouraging visits to build relationships with mandatory reporters would be more helpful.

 

It's not anxiety for me, it's closer to contempt...

I'd probably enjoy having an education themed chat with someone supportive and interested!

[Rosie_0801]

I'd prefer a carrot approach. Annual funds to go towards schooling contingent on showing proof of doctor visit, dentist visit and one other outside of the family professional adult. I don't want a visit from the education department or testing. Portfolios are too easy to fake.

 

So is happy and healthy. As far as I can tell, mandatory reporters really have no idea what trauma looks like unless it is violent.

[Ausmumof3]

Yeah see I don't trust our ed department people at all.

 

I agree with your second paragraph, which is why I think that encouraging visits to build relationships with mandatory reporters would be more helpful.

 

It's not anxiety for me, it's closer to contempt...

I'd probably enjoy having an education themed chat with someone supportive and interested!

Yeah I would have no issue with yearly doctors dentist and visions specialist visits provided financially it wasn't made a burden on low income people of course. doesn't address the issue of potential educational neglect but definitely helps with other issues.

[Carrie12345]

So is happy and healthy. As far as I can tell, mandatory reporters really have no idea what trauma looks like unless it is violent.

 

I agree with that, for the most part. I'm sure there are some who do recognize it, but know they would have a difficult time meet legal criteria.  I have relatives I really hoped would receive help once school started.  To the best of my knowledge, they have not.   The last I heard, homeschooling was being considered, and that terrifies me.

 

I can't bring myself to buy into the idea that more regulations will help anyone, but I also can't pretend that, in their case, it doesn't strike me as a convenient way to hide non-violent abuse/neglect.  The thing is, I don't believe that they believe there's any damage being done, so I can't say it's a nefarious (hypothetical/potential) move. They just don't want to be "hassled" over their "differences".

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Can't quote - I agree that discussions about increased regs for hsers are probably moot in states with an opiod crisis. My state has this problem. The powers that be are actually considering building orphanages because there will never be as many foster families as are needed now, and even if we all turned altruistic and signed up, we wouldn't be ready in time for the massive numbers of children who need removed to care *every single day.* The numbers are staggering.

[Ausmumof3]

And now I'm feeling annoyed.

 

First comment on Facebook under the news story was "homeschooling - again! So predictable, there should be an investigation".

 

I really really want to comment and keep it polite but point out the many decent homeschoolers and the occasionally disastrous school situations. However I know ignoring it is probably the smartest option to make the comment disappear.

 

Eta actually it was worse

 

some one really needs to research the connection between "home schooling" and child abuse. It is just so predictable. #Yawn 😮

 

This was the comment ... Grr. Then again maybe some research would be a fair thing. Statistically there must be an awful lot of school kids removed to foster care given how many kids are in foster care. At least any legislation would be informed by fact:

Edited January 17, 2018 by Ausmumof3

[Guest]

Our municipalities have bylaws for this- illegal or unsafe construction, hoarding, animal neglect... Don't yours?

There might be. I don’t know how I would find out.

[ThisIsTheDay]

Where I live, NYS, homeschooled children have to EITHER score in the 33rd percentile OR show a year's worth of growth from one test to the next, even if their previous test was really low. And you chose what test to use, and you don't have to test until the 5th grade.

That's a really low bar. My only complaint is that sometimes I'm scared at how easy it is to pass it!

 

(Of course, I'm all for having reasonable standards! But with reasonable, realistic standards, you still wouldn't want to test?)

 

That's not a "really low bar." That means that 1/3 of the ps kids are scoring at that level or below. And if a homeschooler falls under it, all of a sudden the public school gets involved? They need to be focusing on their own shortcomings before telling someone else how to do it.

[maize]

Where I live, NYS, homeschooled children have to EITHER score in the 33rd percentile OR show a year's worth of growth from one test to the next, even if their previous test was really low. And you chose what test to use, and you don't have to test until the 5th grade.

That's a really low bar. My only complaint is that sometimes I'm scared at how easy it is to pass it!

 

(Of course, I'm all for having reasonable standards! But with reasonable, realistic standards, you still wouldn't want to test?)

It's a really low bar if you have kids who test well.

 

You do realize that 1/3rd of all students in the public system fall below the 33rd percentile?

 

And I'm thinking that kids with low intellectual ability or learning disabilities may sometimes struggle to show "a year's worth of growth" in a year. My dyslexic kiddo took many years of reading instruction to achieve second grade level.

 

It's always the folks with high testing kids who think these sorts of standards are easy to meet. Congratulations on having the sorts of kids who pass this bar so easily! Well done passing on good academic genes.

 

I've got some good testers as well, which has nothing to do with how much formal instruction they do or do not receive. Standardized tests are not a good instrument for ascertaining that, and they can discourage or punish folks who don't need discouragement.

Edited January 17, 2018 by maize

[ktgrok]

My reasoning with this is that many home school styles simply do not follow a traditional academic pattern of learning. My older kids would have tested somewhat poorly on literacy around grade 2 and yet by grade 5 are well above average. That's because instead of the drill and kill style of school we used a tonne of living literature and gentle reading instruction. Academic development is non linear in so many ways that I would really really hate for homeschoolers to be held to strict public school standards that may be harmful or unrealistic.

 

Education should absolutely by happening but there are multiple approaches and the public school styles can be a bit ridiculous at times.

 

My state does a portfolio review, that you do with a certified teacher of your choice. So you find one that does evaluations (listed online, ask around, etc) and meet up either at your home, at theirs, or more often at a park or Starbucks or whatever. I know we met at a mall food court once. They sign off that your child is "making progress commensurate with ability". In other words, adequate progress will look different depending on the child, and their are no specific benchmarks or subjects to meet or cover. You can uncschool and "pass" the portfolio evaluation with no issues. Often people use a blog, or photo album showing what they did that year rather than a traditional collection of worksheets. You do have to keep a record of books/materials used, and a log of activities, but the state never asks to see them. The big thing is the portfolio. I like it because as much as introvert me hates meeting with someone, it does mean kids are having someone see them and chat with them each year. 

[ktgrok]

People could still just avoid registering as homeschoolers and live under the radar.  You haven't pointed out any way to solve that primary problem.

 

 

 

It won't solve those that don't register. But then those will no longer be labeled as 'homeschoolers" and those who actually register and homeschool won't be tarnished by association. It helps clear the name of the those that aren't doing anything wrong, more than anything. 

 

I'd rather see "didn't have children enrolled in school" in these articles than "homeschooling". 

[teachermom2834]

It's a really low bar if you have kids who test well.

 

You do realize that 1/3rd of all students in the public system fall below the 33rd percentile?

 

And I'm thinking that kids with low intellectual ability or learning disabilities may sometimes struggle to show "a year's worth of growth" in a year. My dyslexic kiddo took many years of reading instruction to achieve second grade level.

 

It's always the folks with high testing kids who think these sorts of standards are easy to meet. Congratulations on having the sorts of kids who pass this bar so easily! Well done passing on good academic genes.

 

I've got some good testers as well, which has nothing to do with how much formal instruction they do or do not receive. Standardized tests are not a good instrument for ascertaining that, and they can discourage or punish folks who don't need discouragement.

Yep. I had a homeschooled 5th grader test way way below the 33rd percentile (in a state with low test scores to begin with).

 

Same kid is about to graduate with an ACT at the 90th percentile and headed to college with scholarships. I don't for a second believe he would have gotten where he is in the public school system in my area.

[maize]

I'd prefer a carrot approach. Annual funds to go towards schooling contingent on showing proof of doctor visit, dentist visit and one other outside of the family professional adult. I don't want a visit from the education department or testing. Portfolios are too easy to fake.

The incentive approach seems best to me as well.

 

This is one reason I favor virtual charter schools such as those in California. Many of these schools have a model where the parent can choose their own curriculum, tutors, online classes, extracurriculars, etc. and the school pays for them. In exchange parent and child meet with a certified teacher once a month to turn in work samples and discuss progress.

[maize]

It won't solve those that don't register. But then those will no longer be labeled as 'homeschoolers" and those who actually register and homeschool won't be tarnished by association. It helps clear the name of the those that aren't doing anything wrong, more than anything.

 

I'd rather see "didn't have children enrolled in school" in these articles than "homeschooling".

I agree that having some basic requirements that need to be met to officially homeschool helps protect homeschooling freedom in general.

[Ms.Ivy]

The incentive approach seems best to me as well.

 

This is one reason I favor virtual charter schools such as those in California. Many of these schools have a model where the parent can choose their own curriculum, tutors, online classes, extracurriculars, etc. and the school pays for them. In exchange parent and child meet with a certified teacher once a month to turn in work samples and discuss progress.

Unfortunately I don't see how that would work in Blaine amendment states like California. The ed dept in California interprets the state constitution pretty strictly against any religiously-influenced instruction in a homeschool charter setting. A lot of charters have developed ways of hiding it from the state auditors but whether that is ethical is a hotly debated issue.

[ondreeuh]

In Alaska (a very liberterian state overall!), there are PLENTY of publicly-funded partnership programs (most of them not charters per se, but similar). Most give an allotment of $2k per child to homeschoolers who register. Some are restrictive on which materials you can use, but many give you free choice of whatever you want, only they won't pay for it unless it's secular. Even that is pretty flexible - the program I was with would pay for MUS, IEW, and others that are not exactly secular. At a minimum they require quarterly or semester work samples and yearly standardized tests. Even there, there are plenty of independent homeschoolers who squawk about not taking government cheese and trying to pressure people to go independent, because they think the government should have no business in education and everyone should homeschool or find mentors for their own kids. 

 

So I don't think that the people who want to isolate themselves from society are going to be charmed by offers of $$ to let the government have a say in their homeschool.

[ktgrok]

That's not a "really low bar." That means that 1/3 of the ps kids are scoring at that level or below. And if a homeschooler falls under it, all of a sudden the public school gets involved? They need to be focusing on their own shortcomings before telling someone else how to do it.

 

It was 33 percentile OR show adequate yearly progress. Now, I would think that wording, of yearly progress,would need to identify that what a years worth of progress IS will vary with the individual. 

[maize]

Unfortunately I don't see how that would work in Blaine amendment states like California. The ed dept in California interprets the state constitution pretty strictly against any religiously-influenced instruction in a homeschool charter setting. A lot of charters have developed ways of hiding it from the state auditors but whether that is ethical is a hotly debated issue.

Well yes, curriculum choice is not wide open--they will only pay for secular resources.

 

Though parents can use their own religious materials on the side.

[KrissiK]

The incentive approach seems best to me as well.

 

This is one reason I favor virtual charter schools such as those in California. Many of these schools have a model where the parent can choose their own curriculum, tutors, online classes, extracurriculars, etc. and the school pays for them. In exchange parent and child meet with a certified teacher once a month to turn in work samples and discuss progress.

Except that the curriculum must be secular. You can use sectarian curriculum, but the charter won’t pay for it. It really is a great deal and a lot of people I know are in these charters, but I use all Christian curriculum, and it’s working for us. And I use it not just because it is Christian.... for example, after years and many different curriculums, CLE is the one that fits my kids for math. Finally. It’s a good curriculum. Edited January 17, 2018 by KrissiK

[KrissiK]

I’ve been reading this thread on and off, and it certainly is horrifying, but I have to make the comment that govt. oversight is not the answer. As homeschoolers, we do not want more regulations and oversight. I know it is not exactly the same, but we were foster parents for 10 years or so as we were adopting our kids and I know all about govt. oversight and it is not pretty. It is invasive, at times abusive and all in all, pretty horrible. No, not all the social workers we dealt with were bad, but the bad ones were bad - judgemental, inflexible, power hungry. I got in trouble for not making my small children make their beds every morning and for allowing my own children run around barefoot in the springtime (we live in California). And that’s only a few examples. As homeschoolers we make calls all the time using our own judgement because of the special circumstances of our families, needs of our children and we do not need govt. workers coming through and judging those decisions and taking the right to decide for our own children away from us. The govt, is not benevolent, and I realize that situatiOne like these kids make us all “generous with the our rightsâ€, but more oversight is not the answer.

Edited January 17, 2018 by KrissiK