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Aziz Anseri situation


MistyMountain
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This isn't sexual assault. It shouldn't fall under #metoo. It is an extremely important conversation to have nontheless.

 

I'm actually appalled by the idea that seems to be coming out of the conversation that if a woman doesn't know how to handle herself by immediately saying "no" and walking out, she should not be allowed to be unsupervised.

 

It's as if internalized misogyny isn't a real thing. We are all just raised in families and in cultures where women are empowered just the same as men. Nothing to see here. Move along.

But she’s choosing to be part of the hook-up culture, no one is forcing her to. Lots of people choose not to be part of that culture. If she’s making that choice then she should be mature enough to understand that she needs to be prepared to clearly communicate and advocate for herself. If she’s choosing to go to the apartment of a virtual stranger on a first date after drinking and undress, then she needs to be ready to handle the situation. Just as the guy needs to be prepared to handle the situation.

 

Personally, I think both of them were just incredibly naive and stupid.

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I must live in a different world from other women. I have been told forever that I can say no and I don’t have to people please. Who are all these people pleasing women who remove their clothing just because a man asks and then put his *** in their mouths just because he gestures at them? Are you kidding me?? People pleasing is when your friend asks if the pants make her butt look big and you answer very carefully and gently. It’s not having some guy gesture at himself and you put it in your mouth. I can’t even.

 

I was very confused when the article started off with her talking about the color of the wine. Did she even ask for a different one? If she did was she so passive about it that he didn’t think she really cared? “Well...I normally drink white...but I guess if you like the red...â€. What a weird thing to talk about in this article. They were at a restaurant I thought. Why didn’t she order a glass of whatever she liked? If this was meant to establish him as someone who was running rough shod over her, then it was badly done. If she said she insisted on the white and kept asking for the one color and he refused, ok. But from the rest of the story, I don’t think she made her wishes known at all and I’d bet you $20 she said exactly what I suspect “...it’s ok if you want the red...†and he took her words at face value.

 

And then the whole encounter in the apartment was so weird. She was naked the whole time—naked, of her own volition—and when she wanted to stop all she said was that she wanted to “chillâ€. What does that mean? It sounds like he thought she was looking for a more comfortable place to resume their activities. “Let’s chill on the couch,†meaning, “let’s move to the couch where it’s more comfortable to resume our hookup.†Because if they were having sex after knowing each other for just a few hours, then the whole evening was casual and they were “chilling†together. Sure, she meant, let’s stop, but why didn’t she put on her clothes? Why didn’t she say, “This is all too fast for me. I don’t go this far on a first date.†When his hands groped, why didn’t she take them in hers and say, “No. Not like that.†Naked and giving and receiving oral and not ever once saying anything...? This is soooo not how I would handle things and soooo passive and soooo...I dunno. I’m running out of adjectives. It’s too foreign for me to understand..

 

This is not a story of her being held down against her will. This is a story of someone who gave more than just mixed signals. She gave off giant green flag signals. I just can’t get over how she sat there naked giving him oral and expected him to read that as anything other than, “I want to do this.†I mean, he simply gestured at her and she did it. It’s not like he pushed her down and forced her. A little flick of the wrist and she’s going along with it? How is that not consenting? How is he supposed to read that as anything other than “yes�

 

This whole article really irritates me. Look, I get crazy-heated up over how men treat women and I struggle with not flat out hating men sometimes, but this article is maddening in the other direction. She is way out of line calling this assault and naming names on a national platform.

Edited by Garga
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I was very confused when the article started off with her talking about the color of the wine. Did she even ask for a different one? If she did was she so passive about it that he didn’t think she really cared? “Well...I normally drink white...but I guess if you like the red...â€. What a weird thing to talk about in this article. They were at a restaurant I thought. Why didn’t she order a glass of whatever she liked?  

 

No, this was at his apartment before they went to the restaurant. She went to his apartment and had a glass of wine, they walked to the restaurant, and walked back again. 

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For sure, I'm just waiting for someone to make a comment about what she was wearing and what she had to drink.

 

I mean she should have expected this behavior because she went home with him and going home with him means she wants to have sex with him. 

 

And just because someone is ok with some sex acts doesn't mean they want to have sex.

 

And he did not force actual intercouse on her,  Asking repeatedly is NOT abuse or a crime.  It may be dumb, gross, not as considerate as most of us would like, etc. but this was a bad date- not anything that is a #metoo situation. I expect both men and women to have common sense.  No, going to someone's house or apartment does not mean sex necessarily and certainly not that anyone should be forced to have sex.

 

The only comments about drinking have been that in her own words, the harassment or horror of her sexual abuse or whatever she is trying to claim it was, started with he ordered white wine and didn't consider that she actually wanted red (which she never says she asked for or pointed out) so how is he supposed to know.

 

If anyone is relying on so-called nonverbal clues while enganging in sexual acts that do not involve something as obvious as crying or putting your clothes on or biting him or running away or some such very very very obvious signs, and they continue to engage in those acts, I really, really, really do not get it.  If you are so unable to help yourself to even the extent of saying directly, no I am not interested in this, I do think you should not be engaging in sexual acts.  I don't care if it is a man who cannot express himself or a woman.  In some way, verbally or very directly non verbally, everyone who engages in sex needs to be able to say yes or no.  So women who are afraid of saying no to their husbands are in a bad situation.  I agree with that and do know that is a problem in some circles and cultures (and I am not just talking about big cultures like in other countries but cultures surrounding some books or followers of some people or whatever). But we have come a very long way from even the 60's and 70's when I was growing up with female empowerment and I am very happy that some of these harassers or worse are shown up for who they are which started full steam last year but this is not part of that.  If anything, the way it is written is very strange and like she had no power.  She did have power and she has used her power to spread this story.  Unfortunately for her, most people are not buying that it is a story of sexual abuse. And in this day and age, I do not care that she is anonymous this minute-  I would not be at all surprised if her true name and a lot about her is revealed too.  Not saying that should happen but just saying that in this day and age, it is a likely happenstance.

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The only comments about drinking have been that in her own words, the harassment or horror of her sexual abuse or whatever she is trying to claim it was, started with he ordered white wine and didn't consider that she actually wanted red (which she never says she asked for or pointed out) so how is he supposed to know.

 

 

 

And he didn't order white wine for her at the restaurant - he offered her white wine at his apartment, before they went to the restaurant. I know the guy is rich, but surely it's possible he didn't have red wine that evening. What people are seeing as a power play may have been more of a missed grocery trip. 

 

She did mention having wine at the restaurant, but also that they left before she finished what was in her glass, and that there was still wine in the bottle they ordered. She seems very concerned about wine in general, but there was not a high level of drinking. 

Edited by katilac
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And then the whole encounter in the apartment was so weird. She was naked the whole time—naked, of her own volition—and when she wanted to stop all she said was that she wanted to “chillâ€. What does that mean? It sounds like he thought she was looking for a more comfortable place to resume their activities. “Let’s chill on the couch,†meaning, “let’s move to the couch where it’s more comfortable to resume our hookup.†Because if they were having sex after knowing each other for just a few hours, then the whole evening was casual and they were “chilling†together. Sure, she meant, let’s stop, but why didn’t she put on her clothes? Why didn’t she say, “This is all too fast for me. I don’t go this far on a first date.†

 

Not to mention, the slang "Netflix and chill" literally means "let's have sex"...  which makes "chill" an even more nebulous term these days...

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It would seem that the author of the article is just as young, naive, and vengeful as "Grace." She did not respond well to Ashleigh Banfield's criticism of the piece, and sent her an email claiming that Banfield's criticism was "one of the most despicable things I've ever seen in my entire life," that Grace is "the bravest person I've ever met," and that Banfield is disgusting and should be ashamed of herself. Oh, and that Banfield (who is 50) is someone that "no one under 45 has ever heard of," while she herself is "22 and not too shabby." The highlight of the email, which Banfield read on air:

 

"I hope the ratings were worth it! I hope the 500 RTs on the single news write up made that burgundy lipstick bad highlight second-wave feminist has-been feel really relevant for a little while."

 

The irony of a 22 yr old who writes for babe.net accusing a 50 yr old journalist, who has been in the business for 30 years and served as a war correspondent in the Middle East, of being (1) irrelevant and (2) not feminist enough while trashing her age and appearance is just...  :blink:

 

 

If criticism of one article is the most despicable thing Katie Way has ever seen in her 22 years of life, and a person who publishes graphic sexual details about a celebrity in revenge for bad sex is the "bravest person she's ever met," and a bad date with a celebrity was the worst day of Grace's life, then they are two very lucky and seriously sheltered young women.

Edited by Corraleno
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It would seem that the author of the article is just as young, naive, and vengeful as "Grace." She did not respond well to Ashleigh Banfield's criticism of the piece, and sent her an email claiming that Banfield's criticism was "one of the most despicable things I've ever seen in my entire life," that Grace is "the bravest person I've ever met," and that Banfield is disgusting and should be ashamed of herself. Oh, and that Banfield (who is 50) is someone that "no one under 45 has ever heard of," while she herself is "22 and not too shabby." The highlight of the email, which Banfield read on air:

 

"I hope the ratings were worth it! I hope the 500 RTs on the single news write up made that burgundy lipstick bad highlight second-wave feminist has-been feel really relevant for a little while."

 

The irony of a 22 yr old who writes for babe.net accusing a 50 yr old journalist, who has been in the business for 30 years and served as a war correspondent in the Middle East, of being (1) irrelevant and (2) not feminist enough while trashing her age and appearance is just... :blink:

Wow

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I must live in a different world from other women. I have been told forever that I can say no and I don’t have to people please. Who are all these people pleasing women who remove their clothing just because a man asks and then put his *** in their mouths just because he gestures at them? Are you kidding me?? People pleasing is when your friend asks if the pants make her butt look big and you answer very carefully and gently. It’s not having some guy gesture at himself and you put it in your mouth. I can’t even.

 

<snip>

 

I agree.  I was in college in 1974 and it was all "I am Woman Hear Me Roar" and "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" and "women are responsible for their own orgasms."   Nowhere (not even in church, believe it or not) have I gotten the message that I am to passively do whatever a man tells me to do, or that it is my job to please him in whatever way he says wants to be pleased.  

 

 

 

I was very confused when the article started off with her talking about the color of the wine. Did she even ask for a different one? If she did was she so passive about it that he didn’t think she really cared? “Well...I normally drink white...but I guess if you like the red...â€. What a weird thing to talk about in this article. They were at a restaurant I thought. Why didn’t she order a glass of whatever she liked? If this was meant to establish him as someone who was running rough shod over her, then it was badly done. If she said she insisted on the white and kept asking for the one color and he refused, ok. But from the rest of the story, I don’t think she made her wishes known at all and I’d bet you $20 she said exactly what I suspect “...it’s ok if you want the red...†and he took her words at face value.

 

The comments about the wine were (imo) a setup to make him look bad right from the start. They were at his house then.  It wasn't clear if he offered wine or just handed her a glass, but she did make it clear (in the article; I don't know if she told him) that she was unhappy that she wasn't given the choice of what wine to drink.  As if she had to drink it.  As if he owed her a variety of wine choices in his own home.  Maybe next time she goes to someone's house she should take a bottle of her favorite wine. 

Edited by marbel
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For sure, I'm just waiting for someone to make a comment about what she was wearing and what she had to drink.

 

I mean she should have expected this behavior because she went home with him and going home with him means she wants to have sex with him. 

 

And just because someone is ok with some sex acts doesn't mean they want to have sex.

 

"Slut shaming" is really what you've taken from this whole discussion?  :001_rolleyes:

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"Slut shaming" is really what you've taken from this whole discussion?  :001_rolleyes:

 

Certainly not the ONLY thing, but it's certainly there.\

 

Almost ZERO discussion about the man's behavior and nobody suggesting that he needs supervision because of his behavior.

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You must have skipped a lot of posts.

 

I didn't actually skip any. 

 

He's at worst impolite and selfish. More likely bumbling and awkward. 

 

She's leading him on and naive, stupid, an idiot, can't take care of herself, needs supervision, extra guardianship, can't handle herself in normal public interaction, weak, confusing, etc

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Well, the whole scenario is so far out of my realm of experience that it is hard to wrap my head around it but...

 

Sometimes we get caught up in a situation and do stuff we shouldn't have done. It happens. There may have been more or less valid reasons. But ultimately our actions are our responsibility. That doesn't mean we have to beat ourselves up about it but we need to own it, learn from it, move on etc.

 

I hate disagreements/disharmony but this is just taking it too far. If you don't want to go home with someone just say so. And if you feel uncomfortable get up and leave (I am assuming here that there is no violence/threat of violence involved as nothing like that was indicated). I mean if you feel uncomfortable saying "I don't want to have S** with you" you can just say "Gee, I remember I need to feed my cat" or whatever (yes, that is maybe kind of cowardly but still better than the alternative).

 

And I am sorry but if there really is a significant number of women who will go along with almost anything because they are conditioned to it by society, then society must change. BUT it is not the responsibility of a stranger to ensure that her unspoken (and possibly unconscious) wishes are fulfilled. He is not a mind reader. And honestly how patronizing would it be if one went home with a stranger to have sex (okay, still can't quite wrap my mind around this but let's assume) and he suddenly stopped because he "guessed" that you would rather not do what you were doing?

 

I am feeling kind of bad for Anseri - I was looking for a show to watch on Netflix and started Parks and Recreation (which I have never seen) and apparently he is in it. Anyway, every time he shows up on screen I can't stop myself from thinking about intimate details I now know about him that I have absolutely no business knowing...

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Was he an entitled a$$?  Sure, absolutely.   I'm the last person who would defend his behavior. 

 

 

 he had the acumen of a 19-year-old college kid who watched too many dirty movies.

 

 

We should absolutely not normalize this behavoir in guys.

 

 

 

I haven't seen much of Ansari.  What little I have seen, gives me the opinion that he's an ass.

 

The description of what happens sounds like he was an ass.

 

 

Not that I think he comes out well in this either.  But I haven't really been a fan and he has always come across as arrogant to me.

 

 

She had a bad date with a guy she admired, who turned out to be a jerk, and she's hurt and disappointed that he was mostly just interested in sex. Yes, he's a jerk.

 

 

I think that Aziz was completely inappropriate (and gross) in his actions

 

 

Nonetheless, he showed her clearly early on what he was all about.

 

 

That's just from page 1 of the thread of comments on his behavior.

 

The reason her behavior has been analyzed more is because she gave the account and all of her internal thoughts to go along with it. The piece was about her experience. Obviously the thread is going to focus more on that because that was what the article was about.  But throughout this thread Ansari's behavior has been roundly criticized.

Edited by EmseB
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I didn't actually skip any. 

 

He's at worst impolite and selfish. More likely bumbling and awkward. 

 

She's leading him on and naive, stupid, an idiot, can't take care of herself, needs supervision, extra guardianship, can't handle herself in normal public interaction, weak, confusing, etc

 

 

The man in this case has F'd up.  That, I think is a given.  However, he has acknowledged the situation, has not written an article trying to claim the situation was something it wasn't, and by the woman's own statement, apologized to her for his actions.  Given all that, what else is there to discuss really?  Why some guys are like that?  That might be a good question for Christian Grey, but the truth is, most guys AREN'T like that.  Some, maybe even a lot, but most guys I run into are not.

 

IMO, most of the focus is on her because she says in her story that she wants validation that this was sexual assault, and it wasn't.  And defining sexual assault is a very good discussion to have. 

 

happy has given the answer I would. 

 

We're talking about her, because she is the one who decided to give a blow-by-blow (pun intended) account of the events and name names.  Nationally.  And accuse him of a crime that he didn't do. Publicly.  

 

Yes, he was being pushy and a jerk about things, but she was rewarding all of that, so he thought she was ok with it.  At the moment that she finally said stop...he did!  And he apologized and didn't attack her or call her names.  He accepted what she said.

 

I think she's waaay more in the wrong than he is and that's why we're talking about her more than him.  It isn't slut shaming like when people say 'what was she wearing'...mostly because she wasn't wearing anything.  I mean, she literally pranced around in front of him naked and when she finally wanted to stop...he stopped.  That's what we've all been saying men should do.  "I should be able to wear anything I want!  Or even be naked!  And if I say, STOP, he should stop!  Men need to be able to control themselves!"   

 

Well, he did.

 

He pressured and was acting like he was in a seedy porno, but he stopped when the fully naked woman who had been engaging in sex acts asked him to.  And he didn't call her names.  And apologized for misreading her green flag signals.  We can pick apart what he did and we can all agree that he was not respecting boundaries, but I don't see how it compares to her going along with all of it, finally calling an end to it--which he respected, and then accusing him nationally of a crime he didn't commit.  

Edited by Garga
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I didn't actually skip any. 

 

He's at worst impolite and selfish. More likely bumbling and awkward. 

 

She's leading him on and naive, stupid, an idiot, can't take care of herself, needs supervision, extra guardianship, can't handle herself in normal public interaction, weak, confusing, etc

 

The posts about how she can't take care of herself and needs supervision, etc, aren't meant to be literal.  It's following a bad piece of logic to its bad end...to highlight the fact that it's bad logic.  It's meant to be over-the-top to prove a point.  No one actually believes she should be supervised.

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The posts about how she can't take care of herself and needs supervision, etc, aren't meant to be literal.  It's following a bad piece of logic to its bad end...to highlight the fact that it's bad logic.  It's meant to be over-the-top to prove a point.  No one actually believes she should be supervised.

 

Exactly!

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The posts about how she can't take care of herself and needs supervision, etc, aren't meant to be literal.  It's following a bad piece of logic to its bad end...to highlight the fact that it's bad logic.  It's meant to be over-the-top to prove a point.  No one actually believes she should be supervised.

 

Thank. You.

 

And I would add, that there are cultures and places in the world and religious sects that actually do treat women in this way and follow this logic to the end of the line. Women are not allowed to be out from under the protection of a man, either their father or their husband because they are weak and inferior beings.

 

Edited by EmseB
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And he didn't order white wine for her at the restaurant - he offered her white wine at his apartment, before they went to the restaurant. I know the guy is rich, but surely it's possible he didn't have red wine that evening. What people are seeing as a power play may have been more of a missed grocery trip.

 

She did mention having wine at the restaurant, but also that they left before she finished what was in her glass, and that there was still wine in the bottle they ordered. She seems very concerned about wine in general, but there was not a high level of drinking.

Exactly, and re:wine, who even cares. If I like red, he offers white and says "you will love this it's awesome better than any red you've very had," I am going to internally roll my eyes but be polite.

 

Then leave.

 

Not stay and complain I didn't have the ovaries to say, "no it won't."

Edited by Tsuga
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Certainly not the ONLY thing, but it's certainly there.\

 

Almost ZERO discussion about the man's behavior and nobody suggesting that he needs supervision because of his behavior.

 

There hasn't been any discussion about Mr. Ansari's behavior because I think absolutely everyone agrees that he was acting like a pushy jerk (to put it nicely).

 

The disagreement and controversy is over what responsibility, if any, "Grace" bears for her experience. Is she a victim? To some people, yes. Is she an overly passive doormat who should have clearly communicated that she wasn't enjoying the activities in which she was participating? To others, HECK YES!

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It would seem that the author of the article is just as young, naive, and vengeful as "Grace." She did not respond well to Ashleigh Banfield's criticism of the piece, and sent her an email claiming that Banfield's criticism was "one of the most despicable things I've ever seen in my entire life," that Grace is "the bravest person I've ever met," and that Banfield is disgusting and should be ashamed of herself. Oh, and that Banfield (who is 50) is someone that "no one under 45 has ever heard of," while she herself is "22 and not too shabby." The highlight of the email, which Banfield read on air:

 

"I hope the ratings were worth it! I hope the 500 RTs on the single news write up made that burgundy lipstick bad highlight second-wave feminist has-been feel really relevant for a little while."

 

The irony of a 22 yr old who writes for babe.net accusing a 50 yr old journalist, who has been in the business for 30 years and served as a war correspondent in the Middle East, of being (1) irrelevant and (2) not feminist enough while trashing her age and appearance is just...  :blink:

 

 

If criticism of one article is the most despicable thing Katie Way has ever seen in her 22 years of life, and a person who publishes graphic sexual details about a celebrity in revenge for bad sex is the "bravest person she's ever met," and a bad date with a celebrity was the worst day of Grace's life, then they are two very lucky and seriously sheltered young women.

 

Oh my.  Maybe the problem is not many 22 year olds read the NYT, but I am not sure that is a good thing.

 

I'm afraid if I read that out loud on the air I might laugh.  Which might not be fair, but it would be difficult not to.

 

I kind of wonder what the vision of the perfect society these young women have is?  Like, lots of men who go out of the way to make sure they are feeling ok, and rub their feet when they feel tense, all while being sexually available but never sexually aggressive?  I gotta say, aesthetically that would not work for me at all.

 

 

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It’s like the reverse of the whore/madonna dichotomy. We want a lothario in the bedroom IF it’s to our tastes, a gender neutered manservant in the home, arm candy for dates, and a tiger in the boardroom. That’s not any better than What has been foisted on women for decades except that women have less power to make it happen. That doesn’t make the expectation less problematic when it’s running as a subconscious script for a young woman though.

 

Huh. Have to think about this one, because everyone is running mental scripts at a given time, whether they’re consciously controlling that script or not.

 

Subconscious scripts is an interesting way to put it, I find that a helpful idea.  And it would explain some of the things I've heard from women in that age group that seem really strange to me.

 

I feel like maybe we should blame Twilight.

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 I kind of wonder what the vision of the perfect society these young women have is?  Like, lots of men who go out of the way to make sure they are feeling ok, and rub their feet when they feel tense, all while being sexually available but never sexually aggressive?  I gotta say, aesthetically that would not work for me at all.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to want a guy who goes out of his way to make sure his partner is feeling okay and being willing to take things at her pace. They do, in fact, exist.

 

I *DO* think that going back to his place on the first date is not the way to find such a guy. Maybe there are decent guys who would bring a total stranger to his place on a first date but they are likely FAR outnumbered by pushy jerks.

 

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I don't think it's unreasonable to want a guy who goes out of his way to make sure his partner is feeling okay and being willing to take things at her pace. They do, in fact, exist.

 

I *DO* think that going back to his place on the first date is not the way to find such a guy. Maybe there are decent guys who would bring a total stranger to his place on a first date but they are likely FAR outnumbered by pushy jerks.

 

 

 

I don't know I kind of feel like this goes both ways.  Is it unreasonable for the guy to want a girl to consider the pace or type of encounter her partner wants?

 

I mean - I have no argument that people should respect each others' feelings - though sometimes that may mean your desired outcomes are incompatible - like you want a one night stand and he wants a relationship.  There isn't really a way to compromise on that, you just have to both not get what you want.

 

But -  in her article, I actually had the impression that she had a vision of what was supposed to happen, too - it was just different from his.  And she thought she should get to set the agenda.  Well, maybe, since her agenda was slower.

 

But there is something I find a little - unsettling, maybe ? - about this sense that they man's job is to make the women feel comfortable and happy and do things her way.  Maybe it cuts a little too close to some of the cliches about women and wives. 

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I had thought that Grace was not well-served by the way the article was written, and this confirms that. I note that the writer sought Grace out, it wasn't Grace's idea to go to the media. Obviously she must have told friends she'd had a lousy date for the author to have been able to find her, but it seems likely to me that the author wanted to write an "exposing the hypocrisy of men wearing 'Time's Up' pins" article and went looking for something she could stretch into that.

"Grace" originally outed Ansari in a tweet under her real name (Abby Nierman) back in October. She tweeted "Does your aggressor even know he's your aggressor? #metoo Let's ask mine: @azizansari Want to ask yours? Blast 'em"

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I don't know I kind of feel like this goes both ways.  Is it unreasonable for the guy to want a girl to consider the pace or type of encounter her partner wants?

 

Famously Olivia Culpo dumped Tim Tebow after only a couple months because she wanted to have s*x and he wanted to wait. So yeah, I do think that it works both ways. I don't think it's any better when the woman is the one pressuring the man to engage in intimate behavior that he isn't comfortable doing at that point in the relationship. 

 

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I don't know I kind of feel like this goes both ways.  Is it unreasonable for the guy to want a girl to consider the pace or type of encounter her partner wants?

 

I mean - I have no argument that people should respect each others' feelings - though sometimes that may mean your desired outcomes are incompatible - like you want a one night stand and he wants a relationship.  There isn't really a way to compromise on that, you just have to both not get what you want.

 

But -  in her article, I actually had the impression that she had a vision of what was supposed to happen, too - it was just different from his.  And she thought she should get to set the agenda.  Well, maybe, since her agenda was slower.

 

But there is something I find a little - unsettling, maybe ? - about this sense that they man's job is to make the women feel comfortable and happy and do things her way.  Maybe it cuts a little too close to some of the cliches about women and wives.

I agree. I got the impression from Grace's account that her problem wasn't so much that she was forced to have sex when she didn't want it, it's that she didn't get the kind of sex she did want. Like if they'd gone back to his place and he asked her what color wine she wanted and lit some candles and gave her a massage and played with her hair and talked about vintage cameras, she'd have been happy spending the night. The fact that he did not follow the script she had in her head, that she kept hoping he would somehow read without even knowing it existed, doesn't make her an assault victim. There's a huge space between "terrific lover who puts his partner first" and "sexual predator."

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Famously Olivia Culpo dumped Tim Tebow after only a couple months because she wanted to have s*x and he wanted to wait. So yeah, I do think that it works both ways. I don't think it's any better when the woman is the one pressuring the man to engage in intimate behavior that he isn't comfortable doing at that point in the relationship. 

 

 

Ah, yes, that's not quite what I meant though.

 

I was thinking, outside of consent issues, it is kind of a stereotype, though one with some truth, than men are maybe more inclined to the kind of thing Anseri seemed interested in here - something sort of athletic and aggressive - whereas women want to have someone ask them how they are and rub their shoulders and work up to all of that over a bottle of wine.

 

I mean - I find it a bit funny that this situation seems like it could fit right into a sit-com trope in that sense.  But is one really "better" than the other?  She shouldn't have to be involved in his ideal encounter if she doesn't want, but then is it fair for her to think he should be playing with her hair and sipping wine?

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I agree. I got the impression from Grace's account that her problem wasn't so much that she was forced to have sex when she didn't want it, it's that she didn't get the kind of sex she did want. Like if they'd gone back to his place and he asked her what color wine she wanted and lit some candles and gave her a massage and played with her hair and talked about vintage cameras, she'd have been happy spending the night. The fact that he did not follow the script she had in her head, that she kept hoping he would somehow read without even knowing it existed, doesn't make her an assault victim. There's a huge space between "terrific lover who puts his partner first" and "sexual predator."

 

Yes, this exactly.

 

And the thing is, if you want a terrific lover who puts his partner first, you probably have to be that person too.  It's going to be a give and take thing.  

 

I'm not sure where that leaves you in a one night stand though.

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Yes, this exactly.

 

And the thing is, if you want a terrific lover who puts his partner first, you probably have to be that person too. It's going to be a give and take thing.

 

I'm not sure where that leaves you in a one night stand though.[/quote/]

 

Yes! Which is why this Aziz story is really more about the flaws inherent in the hookup culture than it is about sexual assault or #metoo.

Edited by Hyacinth
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I think you just nailed it, that’s been what’s bugging me. She wasn’t objecting to the circumstances or him, but her failed expectations and his behavior. Bingo. That actually fits what we are reading, which is what was bugging me - what she was saying didn’t quite fit with what she was claiming he did, and that was causing cognitive dissonance for me in trying to ‘get’ this.

Yes. She thought she was going to get a character.

 

Xxxxxxxxxx

From the article:

 

"Speaking to babe, Grace mentioned the glaring gap between Ansari’s comedy persona and the behavior she experienced in his apartment as a reason why she didn’t get out earlier. “I didn’t leave because I think I was stunned and shocked,†she said. “This was not what I expected. I’d seen some of his shows and read excerpts from his book and I was not expecting a bad night at all, much less a violating night and a painful one.â€

 

"In the Uber home from Ansari’s apartment, Grace texted a friend: “I hate men.†She continued: “I had to say no a lot. He wanted sex. He wanted to get me drunk and then f--- me.†She texted another friend after she got back to her apartment, “I’m taking a bath I’m really upset I feel weird.â€

 

Xxxxxxxxx

Edited by unsinkable
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Yes, this exactly.

 

And the thing is, if you want a terrific lover who puts his partner first, you probably have to be that person too. It's going to be a give and take thing.

 

I'm not sure where that leaves you in a one night stand though.

A terrific lover who puts his partner first is never going to be someone who is looking for a one night stand. Because one night stands are inherently selfish.

 

ETA: I am sure there are a small number of long-term relationships that begin with sex on the first date. But I would venture to guess that most first-date sex is pretty selfish too.

Edited by DesertBlossom
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Certainly not the ONLY thing, but it's certainly there.\

 

Almost ZERO discussion about the man's behavior and nobody suggesting that he needs supervision because of his behavior.

I missed the part about her needing supervision.

 

People have repeatedly pointed out that he sounds like a jerk and also acted in poor judgment.

 

In addition, there is a difference between criticizing someone's choice to publish a bad date and someone's choice to have sex.

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I missed the part about her needing supervision.

 

People have repeatedly pointed out that he sounds like a jerk and also acted in poor judgment.

 

In addition, there is a difference between criticizing someone's choice to publish a bad date and someone's choice to have sex.

 

Yeah, no one actually said she needed supervision.

 

The point was that would be the logical conclusion of a total inability of a woman (or anyone) to advocate for herself.  Someone who will simply go along with any suggestion is normally considered in need of special protection.  

 

Which would seem absurd of course and so should be a clue that there is faulty reasoning in saying that she was somehow too frightened even to speak up in a mild way.  What makes it more disturbing than absurd is the fact that exactly that logic has been used in the past, and is used today in some places, to maintain that women, or young women, do need that kind of supervision.  So maybe not such a stretch to think that making those kinds of claims about women could lead to a bad place.

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A terrific lover who puts his partner first is never going to be someone who is looking for a one night stand. Because one night stands are inherently selfish.

 

Neither here nor there with regard to the larger conversation, but I can assure you that IME your statement is false.

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