Jump to content

Menu

Why do I keep seeing the word "women" spelled as "womyn"?


Recommended Posts

May I ask for clarification of what you mean by that?  I'll take a stab at it, though this may not have been what you were getting at.  Gender (though it's not a concept I'm fully comfortable with, I'm trying to go with it for the sake of meaningful conversation) matters more than biology to me in terms of my personal interactions with friends and acquaintances.  For example, my daughter has two trans friends, one MtF and one FtM.  I adore both of them, and more than that I also respect both of them.  I call them by their chosen names and preferred pronouns, and I have no problem or issue with doing so whatsoever.  I'd also have no problem whatsoever sharing a public restroom with them or with other trans people.  

 

Biology matters more than gender to me when it comes to women's shelters and rape crisis centers, athletics and sports competitions, and scholarships.

 

Is that the kind of thing you were getting at?

 

No -- I don't think using people's preferred names and pronouns is prioritizing gender over sex, I think it is just common decency (I bet you agree).

I think many but not all people on this thread would agree that gender should be a determinant for bathrooms in public schools.  Trans youth are especially vulnerable, and don't really have other options but to use public facilities.  Obviously 'everyone gets their own bathroom' is the ideal, but if the choice is "Do we force kids to use sex-based bathrooms or not", a lot of us would say, no, that's a compromise that we're OK with. 

 

I think many, if not all,  all people on this thread would agree that XY and XX chromosomes should not compete in side by side in sports.  I don't really know where I stand, I'm not willing to say 'never' , but it's pretty easy to see a disparity there.

 

Shelters, rape crisis, scholarships, I do see transgender women as women, but I also think these are tricky issues worth discussing -- not "obviously trans women should never ever be excluded".

 

Does that help?

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 682
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

This sets me on edge because the term journalist doesn't need a gender disclaimer.

Using the word women has never made me feel as you described above.  it is just a word.  A word that feminists have decided to attach negative connotations to. Using womyn and womxn is nonsensical to

No, it is not an anti-men thing. Nothing sets my feminist roots on edge more then a dismissive comment about feminism and what it means.  Womyn is an acknowledgment that feminizing a male word is not

I wonder, are men also not allowed to mention prostates and testicles in discussions of men's health?  I think I would have been tempted to reply, "Just a friendly reminder, telling women to shut up and stop talking about their icky lady parts is classic misogyny."  But then again, I'm quite grumpy after a week of constant migraines and no sleep, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

Someone said  "not all women have a cervix" and you heard it as "you are not allowed to mentioned cervixes".   But those aren't the same thing at all.

Edited by poppy
Link to post
Share on other sites

t would be lovely if we got to a point of discussing the cases where gender matters more than biology, and the cases where biology matters more than

 

We have posters here dismissing the concept of gender altogether. And acknowledging that gender exist = an erasure of the concept of "woman". Really hard to get past that hump.

When does gender trump biology?
Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone said  "not all women have a cervix" and you heard it as "you are not allowed to mentioned cervixes".   But those aren't the same thing at all.

 

 

Someone stepped in to "correct" the way that women were talking about their own bodies.  That kind of bs doesn't happen to men.  It's sexist.  I heard it as silencing, as a demand for female acquiescence.  

Edited by Greta
  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

No -- I don't think using people's preferred names and pronouns is prioritizing gender over sex, I think it is just common decency (I bet you agree).

I think many but not all people on this thread would agree that gender should be a determinant for bathrooms in public schools.  Trans youth are especially vulnerable, and don't really have other options but to use public facilities.  Obviously 'everyone gets their own bathroom' is the ideal, but if the choice is "Do we force kids to use sex-based bathrooms or not", a lot of us would say, no, that's a compromise that we're OK with. 

 

I think many, if not all,  all people on this thread would agree that XY and XX chromosomes should not compete in side by side in sports.  I don't really know where I stand, I'm not willing to say 'never' , but it's pretty easy to see a disparity there.

 

Shelters, rape crisis, scholarships, I do see transgender women as women, but I also think these are tricky issues worth discussing -- not "obviously trans women should never ever be excluded".

 

Does that help?

 

 

Thank you, Poppy.  As to the bolded part, I definitely agree that it's common decency, basic courtesy, etc.  But you don't think that's rooted in prioritizing, in that particular situation, gender over sex?  I'm surprised.  I guess this all still boils down to the fact that I don't understand what gender means.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Male/female are the only terms left for biological sex if man/woman are now ambiguous and can mean either sex or gender as a social construct.

 

Yes, this is something that is really, really bothering me.

 

If people decide to accept that women and man are purely terms related to social presentation, how the heck is that we then don't need words to describe the biological facts around sexual dimorphism.

 

This is the claim that more than any other convinces me there is something really wrong going on - not necessarily deliberately, but a kind of anti-scientific thinking that will create serious problems if it becomes a normative form of thinking and argument.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

You're framing this as women having a right to biological female only spaces because they need spaces safe from male violence, which is symbolized by a penis. I am pointing out the bathroom was never such a place.

 

I have no problem with the idea that for example a women's rape survivor group might need to restrict to biological females for those reasons. But when it comes to compromise, applying that same logic to being in a public bathroom together makes it look like you want to take basic rights away from trans people. Which of course makes trans people and activists angry.

 

If you say you support trans basic rights, but don't even want to consider them being in a public bathroom with women, what rights do they really have?

 

 

The difficulty is that the same justification being used to argue for the right of people self-identified as a particular gender to use the related bathrooms would in many cases also apply to any kind of sex segregated space.

 

This goes back to what I said earlier - if we are sloppy in our thinking and just looking to justify particular instances that seem easy, what we'll soon find is that these principles we've instantiated into law will have all kinds of other applications.

 

If we say that men who self-declare as women are women and so have a right to female spaces and female legal protections, that is equally going to apply to women's shelters, positions in community groups or in politics reserved for members of one sex, maybe even things like money allocated for particular purposes like reproductive care.  

 

It really just isn't about bathrooms which is why it's so frustrating to keep having people say "oh, but bathrooms".

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you, Poppy. As to the bolded part, I definitely agree that it's common decency, basic courtesy, etc. But you don't think that's rooted in prioritizing, in that particular situation, gender over sex? I'm surprised. I guess this all still boils down to the fact that I don't understand what gender means.

I guess you are right.

But if it is misogynistic to privilege gender over sex , doesn’t that make using ‘preferred pronouns’ an act of misogyny ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

t would be lovely if we got to a point of discussing the cases where gender matters more than biology, and the cases where biology matters more than

 

We have posters here dismissing the concept of gender altogether. And acknowledging that gender exist = an erasure of the concept of "woman". Really hard to get past that hump.

The point is that a coherent definition of gender, and why it should both be uncoupled from sex and given preeminence over sex, has not been given. If you can give me a reasonable answer I'm willing to hear it. So far, in this thread and in everything I've read, no one can answer beyond stereotypical gender roles and/or subjective feelings. That doesn't mean I don't care about someone's feelings, I just think we need to base public policy on better evidence. Especially if those policies infringe on other oppressed class' rights - in those cases you don't just push harder! You respect both parties and find compromise. We're in the odd position of having to disprove the unproven or lose our right to name ourselves, our experience and the spaces we built.

 

Being able to name and have boundaries at all is generally difficult for those of us raised in the pink box, so it seems an uncannily blue box thing to demand rights and within a decade have them!

 

Now, that's public policy at a class level. Individually, in person, I treat all humans as humans. My specific response will depend on the specific circumstances. In person, I choose kindness where possible.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a direct consequence of a theory that says bio sex is irrelevant and that gender is our primary characteristic. Defend the theory, you can hardly disallow the logical end points.

I don't ascribe to any theory that says that. Bio sex has hardly been irrelevant in the lives of the trans people I know. There is a conflict for them between bio sex and gender. That is far from the conclusion you're making. And no, even then, telling lesbians to "suck d*ck" is not a logical end point, any more than "all men are dogs" is the logical endpoint of feminism.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Let’s compare it to sexual orientation , then. Attraction is ‘subjective’ . Why do you feel comfortable accepting sexual orientation not but comfortable accepting gender ? Or do you not feel comfortable accepting sexual orientation as a legitimate category ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Let’s compare it to sexual orientation , then. Attraction is ‘subjective’ . Why do you feel comfortable accepting sexual orientation not but comfortable accepting gender ? Or do you not feel comfortable accepting sexual orientation as a legitimate category ?

Attraction is measurable, definable. A legitimate category of what?

Gay men and lesbian women aren't telling me to call myself a 'uterus bearer' instead of a woman.

 

So, can you measure or define gender?

Edited by LMD
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

But you don't think that's rooted in prioritizing, in that particular situation, gender over sex?.

How does prioritizing it in some situations mean prioritizing it in all though? It's a normal part of life to weigh one value against another based on circumstance. I don't think it has to or should be black and white.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Attraction is measurable, definable. A legitimate category of what?

Gay men and lesbian women aren't telling me to call myself a 'uterus bearer' instead of a woman.

 

So, can you measure or define gender?

You never heard the term ‘breeders’ ?

 

How do you measure attraction in a non subjective way ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can someone point me to scientific studies on gender: what it is and how we measure it, is it static or changing, anything? This might help my understanding.

 

I have no idea about scientific studies, I am not a scientist.  But you could try the APA FAQ as a fairly neutral place to start (as opposed to pro- or anti-trans sites).

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand why "disadvantaged class who were banned fought for access" applies in some cases, but not others. Do you not consider transgendered men and  women to be a disadvantaged class of people?

 

I am not comparing in scale but in principle.

 

It's because they are actually separate things.  You can't collapse them down into each other.

 

So - black Americans were oppressed, or maybe we can say treated unfairly, on the basis of race, with regard to toilets. The justifications around this were in fact false - mostly entered around health and the dangers of racial mixing.

 

It's also the case that female people fought for bathrooms separate from male people.  This is a distinct situation from the race issue, though some people were in fact impacted by both.  In this case, the basis of the issue was different - that mixed bathrooms were a problem for women. (And we see the same thing actually today in places like Afghanistan or India where there are women and girls trying to have dedicated bathrooms for for females.)  

 

This doesn't mean that black men should be allowed in women's bathrooms - these are separate issues.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

You never heard the term ‘breeders’ ?

 

How do you measure attraction in a non subjective way ?

I've heard it. They're not trying to legally redefine 'woman'

 

You measure it scientifically, by making repeatable observations.

 

But I'm not going to be drawn in to proving a negative. Can you answer my questions? What is gender and why is it irrelevant to and more important than sex?

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't ascribe to any theory that says that. Bio sex has hardly been irrelevant in the lives of the trans people I know. There is a conflict for them between bio sex and gender. That is far from the conclusion you're making. And no, even then, telling lesbians to "suck d*ck" is not a logical end point, any more than "all men are dogs" is the logical endpoint of feminism.

 

But I think this is the point.

 

You are using an outmoded  - or what is considered an outmoded - view of sex, one that would be considered transphobic.

 

Sex dysphoria is the old model, and it's what most people think of when they talk about this issue.  So yes - sex is an important point if you are dysphoric.  Logically, people in that position should really not want "woman" to commonly mean male or female, since the focus of the problem is their body, not what word someone uses - ultimately it would tend to undermine the usefulness, in terms of alleviating suffering - of presenting as the other gender.

 

The current narrative in transactivisim - the reason that the language change from transexual to transgender occurred - is that sex is no longer considered a defining element of being transgendered.  There is no need for the person identifying that way to feel dysphoric, to want to undertake any medical transition, or indeed to be interested in presenting socially through clothing, name changes, or anything else.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

But I think this is the point.

 

You are using an outmoded  - or what is considered an outmoded - view of sex, one that would be considered transphobic.

 

Sex dysphoria is the old model, and it's what most people think of when they talk about this issue.  So yes - sex is an important point if you are dysphoric.  Logically, people in that position should really not want "woman" to commonly mean male or female, since the focus of the problem is their body, not what word someone uses - ultimately it would tend to undermine the usefulness, in terms of alleviating suffering - of presenting as the other gender.

 

The current narrative in transactivisim - the reason that the language change from transexual to transgender occurred - is that sex is no longer considered a defining element of being transgendered.  There is no need for the person identifying that way to feel dysphoric, to want to undertake any medical transition, or indeed to be interested in presenting socially through clothing, name changes, or anything else.

 

This thread has a whole lot of "you're not allowed to say this" and "you're transphobic if you say that" by people who disagree with that point of view..  It's a slippery way to argue.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've heard it. They're not trying to legally redefine 'woman'

 

You measure it scientifically, by making repeatable observations.

 

But I'm not going to be drawn in to proving a negative. Can you answer my questions? What is gender and why is it irrelevant to and more important than sex?

 

Maybe try the APA FAQ I linked. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe try the APA FAQ I linked.

Oh I did. This phrase was used repeatedly - "gender identity refers to one’s internal sense of being male, female, or something else."

 

Interestingly it also said this -

"Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves."

 

So, again, if gender is a sincere feeling based on sex stereotypes, how does that make trans women literally women? Why is it legally more important than sex, and sex based rights?

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess you are right.

But if it is misogynistic to privilege gender over sex , doesn’t that make using ‘preferred pronouns’ an act of misogyny ?

 

 

Hmm, I don't think so, but I will think about it more. Being asked to refer to a trans woman as "she" simply feels like sharing to me, that nothing is being taken from me.  I guess I'm happy to refer to other people how they want to be referred to, that just seems like common decency.  But being asked (much less told!) not to refer to myself simply as a woman (without any modifier like cis, natal, born, biological, whatever) feels like something has been taken away.  And it's very ironic since it's coming from people who are insisting on their own right to define themselves any way they wish.  Why do I not have the same right?  So one feels like misogyny and the other doesn't, though I realize there is emotion and not pure reason in that.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

How does prioritizing it in some situations mean prioritizing it in all though? It's a normal part of life to weigh one value against another based on circumstance. I don't think it has to or should be black and white.

 

 

Yes, I would certainly hope that prioritizing it in some situations wouldn't mean prioritizing it in all.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I find "breeders" to be a rude and unkind term.

 

It was meant to be.

 

The poster said something to the effect of "gay rights activist don't call me names".   But the gay rights movement is much, much further along than the trans movement currently is.  The 'edges' you see in the trans movement certainly existed in the gay rights movement,  and not that long ago.   There are a lot of parallels: the  "is it a mental illness" debate, the treat of having to share bathrooms and changing rooms with gay people being the most obvious.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to point out that no one is doing my son any favors by referring to him as a he. His sex on all documents, including birth certificate and state issued license, all list his sex as male so it's not his preferred pronoun; it just is his pronoun.

 

Not all states make it possible but many do. Many in this thread may not like it but I don't see it changing, thankfully.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh I did. This phrase was used repeatedly - "gender identity refers to one’s internal sense of being male, female, or something else."

 

Interestingly it also said this -

"Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves."

 

So, again, if gender is a sincere feeling based on sex stereotypes, how does that make trans women literally women? Why is it legally more important than sex, and sex based rights?

 

Why do you think trans people are transgendered?

 

I don't know what nation you live in, but in mine, the idea that trans people are more important than /  have more security and protections and rights than women is really  not true.    Perhaps that's part of the disconnect in this conversation. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, thank you for the pamphlet link, but there are no studies in their reference section, either.

 

Oh, I see.   I thought you were sincerely seeking basic info.  I don't really know the science, aside from the fact that there has been some interesting stuff about brain chemistry.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to point out that no one is doing my son any favors by referring to him as a he. His sex on all documents, including birth certificate and state issued license, all list his sex as male so it's not his preferred pronoun; it just is his pronoun.

 

Not all states make it possible but many do. Many in this thread may not like it but I don't see it changing, thankfully.

 

 

I absolutely see it as basic human decency, and not a "favor" at all, and if it came across otherwise, then I sincerely apologize.  I am sorry.

 

You raised a question earlier about how those of us who are claiming (for lack of a better way to put this) that sex trumps gender would handle the difference between someone who had transitioned at the age of six and been raised as a female for most of her life, versus someone who had transitioned as an adult and had all of those years of maleness before becoming female.  I think it's a very good question.  I think it's a very important question.  And I wanted to be honest enough to say that I don't have an answer.  That's the way that I feel about several things that have been brought up in this thread - I don't have answers, just more questions.  But I think the conversation is so worthwhile and so important, so I wanted to thank you for being part of it.  I know that it was painful for you at times (or maybe the whole time?) so I just wanted to express my appreciation.  

 

I appreciate everyone who has posted.  I have found this challenging and enlightening.  And confusing as all heck, but that's okay!   :001_smile:

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do you think trans people are transgendered?

 

I don't know what nation you live in, but in mine, the idea that trans people are more important than / have more security and protections and rights than women is really not true. Perhaps that's part of the disconnect in this conversation.

I'm not going to be drawn into proving a negative.

Why do you think some people identify as trans gender?

 

I never said that trans people are more important or currently have more protections.

I have said that if laws and language are being changed that potentially remove rights and protections from an oppressed class, then the basis for those laws should at least be able to be carefully defined and explained.

 

If you're going to change the legal meaning of 'Native American' to 'anyone born on one of the American continents' and then wealthy white folks start applying for Native Americans grants or scholarships - would you expect Native American people to be upset and ask for explicit and careful reasoning behind the change?

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, all,

 

The moderators asked me to pop and and have a look at this thread about three hours ago, but I was on the road and just now got to my computer.

 

I feel that you've probably achieved as much as you can with this discussion, and that those of you who still have issues to hash out with each other should take it to PMs.

 

Thanks.

 

SWB

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...