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lauraw4321

Reality check - 4 y.o. abilities

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My youngest just turned 4. I'm writing for a reality check of whether I should be worried or not. My oldest was advanced with reading/writing, and slower with gross motor skills. She turned out fine. My middle was advanced pretty much in all areas. She's turning out fine. My youngest is apparently on the "very low end of normal" with some skills, which is surprising me. I never really worried too much about this stuff, but now I'm wondering if that's a mistake.

 

She just turned 4. She's pretty good with her colors. She talks up a storm and tells long elaborate stories. She likes making people laugh and she's good at it. She can pedal a bike, brush her teeth, put on her clothes mostly right.

 

She is a little unsure of shapes. She was asked to draw a circle (she could), a square (she couldn't) a plus sign (she couldn't). She was then asked to draw a face, and she did, although was reluctant. The face was an oval with eyes, nose, mouth, and hair. The doc asked her to draw the rest of the body and she said "no thank you."

 

She doesn't recognize her name, and doesn't know what letter her name starts with. She's not interested in tracing anything, and definitely not letters.

 

I need hive wisdom. I really thought she was fine, but now I'm wondering if I need to up the pre-k skills focus.  TIA!

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That’s normal. Her skill level sounds just fine.

 

One caveat - when you say she doesn’t recognize her name do you mean verbally, or written? The former would raise flags, the latter is no big deal.

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She sounds perfectly fine to me.

 

None of my kids knew letters at age 4 or had any interest in tracing. DD did not know the abc the August she started public K and was able to read fluently by October.

 

I assume not recognizing her name you mean in writing? Not that she does know what her name is, yes?

Edited by regentrude
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She sounds fine to me too.

 

I'm curious about a doctor asking these questions.  Really?  A doctor?  Like a pediatrician?  I never had any doctor do any of this with mine.

 

 

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That’s normal. Her skill level sounds just fine.

 

One caveat - when you say she doesn’t recognize her name do you mean verbally, or written? The former would raise flags, the latter is no big deal.

 

Written. At her preschool, they pick out their names each morning to put on a board. She will pick hers, or one of the other 2 kids' whose name starts with the same letter. Although, she can't tell you that that letter is E.

 

She knows her name verbally.

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She sounds fine to me too.

 

I'm curious about a doctor asking these questions.  Really?  A doctor?  Like a pediatrician?  I never had any doctor do any of this with mine.

 

Yes, her doctor. It's only the second time we've seen her. We just relocated from a different part of the country, and it was very new to me as well.

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Those are standard developmental questions.  But your child is within the developmental norms.  I think that the push on earlier academic skills has some worried and prone to push kids before they are ready. 

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Those are standard developmental questions.  But your child is within the developmental norms.  I think that the push on earlier academic skills has some worried and prone to push kids before they are ready. 

 

In the US?

 

Having them draw pictures, etc etc...in the pediatrician's office?

Never heard of that.

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Those are standard developmental questions.  But your child is within the developmental norms.  I think that the push on earlier academic skills has some worried and prone to push kids before they are ready. 

 

You are saying that the square, drawing, etc. are standard developmental questions? The doc said they were. And she said that she was at the very low end because she couldn't draw a plus or a square. But then drawing a face is a 4 y.o. ability instead of a 3 or 3.5 ability? I found the whole thing confusing and worrying.

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In the US?

 

Having them draw pictures, etc etc...in the pediatrician's office?

Never heard of that.

 

 

You are saying that the square, drawing, etc. are standard developmental questions? The doc said they were. And she said that she was at the very low end because she couldn't draw a plus or a square. But then drawing a face is a 4 y.o. ability instead of a 3 or 3.5 ability? I found the whole thing confusing and worrying.

They are not always done in a pediatrician's office but they are standards in child development books. Scroll through this developmental milestone list on WebMd.  https://www.webmd.com/parenting/3-to-4-year-old-milestones#2

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In the US?

 

Having them draw pictures, etc etc...in the pediatrician's office?

Never heard of that.

 

At DS5's last check up (which was when he was newly turned 4) the doc asked me the questions rather than actually have DS perform them, but yes, in the US.  I vaguely recall the doc we had in Indy asking the same about DD9, but DD7 was already obviously behind developmentally at 2.5 so we were already in therapies when she was newly turned 4. 

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No doctor ever asked me those questions.   The closest they ever asked to that was along the lines of do you have any concerns about your child's development.

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Normal.

 

Let me tell you about ds:

 

-he wouldn't draw shapes, except circles. 

-wouldn't take the time to draw a figure.  According to lore, this is an intelligence marker.  It's not.  It's a fine motor skill/patience marker.

-he didn't recognize his own name and couldn't name any letters.

 

Now, that's not all.

 

-he learned to read in 3 months at age 4, not long after the above.  Really reading.  The only kid I know who did 100 Easy Lessons in 100 days.

-he proved to be exceptional at math by age 6, after not really doing anything with math until kindergarten.

-he turned out to be linguistically gifted, studying 4 languages at a time and keeping them all straight, with grammar, prononciation, and vocabulary.

-he has an ear for music and can identify composers easily when listening to pieces.

 

 

Those things you listed are poor markers for the average child, but great ones for the people pleasing child.  They are things that a child does to please another person, but are not often skills that a child develops because they are interested in such a thing.  I think better markers would be looking at how a child approaches a task, how they gain knowledge, and what skills they are developing.

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Sounds normal. My 4yo can't draw a plus sign, he draws an X. He COULD draw a square, but his squares are always running "No! No!" away from the giant squiggly line, so, the corners are dubious at best. He can't pedal a bike, because the bikes we have are too big for him. We got our letters and numbers, but brown and black are issues. He only recognizes his name because of the first letter, not the whole thing. He's not interested in bookish stuff like the older ones, but is well in range for normal and still a bit "ahead" of what they expect for preschool if he was going to start in September. And, you have a young 4yo, so don't worry :)

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That's normal.  Even some of my bright kids were/are similar at that age.

 

Much of it depends on what you are teaching or emphasizing.  A kid who has gone to daycare and preschool since age 1 will be more likely to recognize their printed name than one who has stayed home and just lived their life.  None of mine could really pedal a bike well at age 4 but we don't really teach or particularly encourage bike riding before age 6 or so.  If we'd given them tricycles and taken them to a tricycling area every day from age 2 (or if they'd had this exposure in a play-yard at a preschool or daycare) they'd probably be able.

 

Can mostly put on clothes right and knows most of her colors sounds just right to me.

 

So far I have had four 4 year olds; they range from MG to the high end of HG.

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I agree normal. The only thing I would suggest if you are concerned is a vision exam just to make sure she can see the shapes, letter, numbers, etc clearly. If she can, don't worry.

 

Remember when Kindergarten at age 5 was learning shapes and colors and numbers, etc.

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I agree normal. The only thing I would suggest if you are concerned is a vision exam just to make sure she can see the shapes, letter, numbers, etc clearly. If she can, don't worry.

 

Remember when Kindergarten at age 5 was learning shapes and colors and numbers, etc.

 

We did do a vision exam, although she was... to put it mildly... not compliant. But the doc said that she was pretty sure she got a decent look at her retinas and that she didn't think she needed glasses.

 

She likes to cross her eyes for fun. I was a bit worried because middle DD needed glasses starting at 3 because of a lazy eye. But, eye doc said not so with her. I may try again with another eye doctor. She DESPISED the eye exam for some reason. When we went to the pedi's office, she asked me 3 times to make sure it was NOT the eye doctor. Even knowing that she would get shots, she'd prefer that to the eye doctor.

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Sounds normal to me, she sounds delightful.

My youngest was 4 in October. He likely wouldn't be able to pick out his written name or tell me what letter it begins with - like your dd he could probably visually identify what it starts with (also E!), he knows his shapes pretty well, but I doubt his drawing of a square would have corners lol. He can draw a kind of stick figure but he'll need to interpret it for you! He still can't get his clothes on correctly, without fail they'll be at least backwards. I'm not at all worried about him.

 

What do they learn at preK if they already know all this stuff?

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DS had an eye exam at about 4 (part of the 4 year old checkup thing), or maybe newly 5.  It consisted of reading either letters or shapes - I figured shapes was safer.

 

They wanted to convince me that he needed a further screening because he missed one shape - a cross/plus sign.  He'd never really had occasion to consider that shape or identify it.

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Sounds normal to me, she sounds delightful.

My youngest was 4 in October. He likely wouldn't be able to pick out his written name or tell me what letter it begins with - like your dd he could probably visually identify what it starts with (also E!), he knows his shapes pretty well, but I doubt his drawing of a square would have corners lol. He can draw a kind of stick figure but he'll need to interpret it for you! He still can't get his clothes on correctly, without fail they'll be at least backwards. I'm not at all worried about him.

 

What do they learn at preK if they already know all this stuff?

 

I don't know about PreK, but in K they learn how to sit still while other kids learn this stuff.

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DS had an eye exam at about 4 (part of the 4 year old checkup thing), or maybe newly 5.  It consisted of reading either letters or shapes - I figured shapes was safer.

 

They wanted to convince me that he needed a further screening because he missed one shape - a cross/plus sign.  He'd never really had occasion to consider that shape or identify it.

 

When they did a vision exam on one of mine at around that age they had this INSANELY old set of picture cards.  Stuff like a dial telephone.  So what kid now would know that? 

 

There were a few instances I just said no I'm not doing further screenings based on your half baked testing methods. 

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Those are standard developmental questions.  But your child is within the developmental norms.  I think that the push on earlier academic skills has some worried and prone to push kids before they are ready. 

 

:iagree:

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Not behind.  What you might expect from a kid being fed this stuff all day at pre-school isn't what you'll see in a kid at home doing other things.

 

And lots of kids aren't really up to reading and writing until well after 4.

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Sounds normal to me. I'm pretty sure that my kids had no idea what a plus sign was at that age, and they are bright. I was a little concerned over one who seemed a little slow about reading in first grade. He eventually took off with it. Kids develop at different rates and in different areas. I actually thought that her polite, "No, thank you," showed brightness in and of itself. They also have different interests. We had a Sunday School teacher who was sure my oldest was behind because he detested coloring. (Her two preschool daughters loved it.) It disturbed her that when the others were coloring, he would distract them by spinning elaborate stories.  :001_rolleyes: Like a pp suggested, some of those skills have to do with what is emphasized. For example, a child who has been in a preschool where desk-type work is emphasized might do well at those tasks; but another child who spends hours outside might have better spatial skills or imagination. Some of those tasks don't (necessarily) have to do with their intelligence, but with their exposure.

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Speaking of plus signs.  When my kid was four we were driving past a cemetery and he asked what those plus signs were.  LOL 

 

So I really do think this is a lot about what the kid experiences up until that point. 

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When they did a vision exam on one of mine at around that age they had this INSANELY old set of picture cards.  Stuff like a dial telephone.  So what kid now would know that? 

 

There were a few instances I just said no I'm not doing further screenings based on your half baked testing methods. 

 

Oh yeah, the dial telephone is standard.  It's kind of a joke I think among eye doctors, they tell the kids what it is, they never recognize it.

 

Except my son, the one who was late at everything and is just starting to read as he turns 8 now.  He knew exactly what it was.

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Oh yeah, the dial telephone is standard.  It's kind of a joke I think among eye doctors, they tell the kids what it is, they never recognize it.

 

Except my son, the one who was late at everything and is just starting to read as he turns 8 now.  He knew exactly what it was.

 

Well we did have an old dial telephone that a neighbor gave us that they kids used as a toy.  So my kids knew it too, but I would absolutely not have expected that.  Would it kill them to update the cards!? 

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Another vote for normal. Also another surprised parent that the pediatrician is doing this type of screening.

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Like she just said, this is so much about experience at this age. If your preschool teacher isn’t telling you to worry, I wouldn’t worry yet.

 

Here are the developmental checklists that most of the pediatricians and preschools are using right now (maybe just in our state? Idk). They sometimes just ask target questions from them. A friend was surprised a week ago when the doctor was asking her developmental questions at her dd’s 3 year checkup. Questions like, can she count to 3? Can she say her abcs? Seems pretty big for 3, but whatever.

 

5 yo - http://bit.ly/2D3IxlT

4yo - https://cfpsm.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/ASQ-4yrs.pdf

3yo - http://www.southernhealth.nhs.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=99683&type=Full&servicetype=Attachment

2.5 - http://paofdurango.com/durango/ASQ/30MonthASQ.pdf

24mo - http://www.middleburyfamilyhealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Pediatric-Screening-Form-24-mo.pdf

 

They go to down to 6 months? I can’t remember.

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Written. At her preschool, they pick out their names each morning to put on a board. She will pick hers, or one of the other 2 kids' whose name starts with the same letter. Although, she can't tell you that that letter is E.

 

She knows her name verbally.

That sounds totally normal. My 4yo recognizes D as being his first initial, but he’d likely pick out Daddy or Dinosaur from a list too. He can tell you the sound D makes but may or may not tell you it’s called D.

 

This is my fourth 4yo, plus I nannied twins at that age too. All seven of them have been at different stages at 4. Yours sounds completely normal to me.

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Oh and as for the vision screen pictures, my eye doctor uses a set for little kids with a flower, a fish, a dog like a Great Dane, and a duck. One of my 4yo boys called the dog a horse, because, well, in a small silhouette, it looks like a horse, and the dogs he’d seen looked different. Another of my 4yo boys (my current one) decided the fish was a tadpole. I nearly fell apart laughing at that because that’s so the mark of the youngest kid, to know tadpole before fish!

 

My kids have had some great answers for the doctor. I have had preschoolers answer both broccoli and cookies for her “what do you like to eat?†question, making me look both like a stellar parent as a slacker one. Thankfully, she knows us by now. One of my preschoolers had this conversation with her:

“So, what did you do today?â€

Child: “Um, we drive.â€

Doctor: “Oh, where did you go?â€

Child (who is barely three, I think): Gives her a distinct “duh†look. “Here.†You really never know what you’re going to get when you ask one of my three little boys a question.

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I remember the ped. asking DS-then-4 what you do when you are ready to cross a street.  Obviously the desired answer was to look both ways, or something.  DS said, "cross the street."  She was fairly appalled.  The thing is, DS was a committed runner.  At age 4 he had not crossed a street alone in his life, and maybe twice or three times walking holding my hand - 99% of the time he was in a stroller.  There was no universe in which he ever needed to know to look both ways, because A. he wasn't going to do it and B. he wasn't going to be controlling the forward motion at an intersection that had ever had a car at it.  She was similarly appalled at his answer to washing his hands (he dried them on his shirt, oh god the horror), talking to strangers (being as how he was a runner and Never Alone Ever in public, he was happy to talk to strangers - and still is!), brushing his teeth ("how many times do you brush your teeth every day?" answer: "whatever I feel like" - technically true, I guess), and knowing his address and phone number (he sort of vaguely understood he lived in Missouri but that was about it).

 

 

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She sounds fine to me too.

 

I'm curious about a doctor asking these questions.  Really?  A doctor?  Like a pediatrician?  I never had any doctor do any of this with mine.

 

 

Those are standard developmental questions.  But your child is within the developmental norms.  I think that the push on earlier academic skills has some worried and prone to push kids before they are ready. 

 

 

In the US?

 

Having them draw pictures, etc etc...in the pediatrician's office?

Never heard of that.

 

Yes. That's a totally normal developmental assessment. Not uncommon at all.

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I am going to go against the group here and say that what you're describing may indicate...something.

 

When a child has advanced siblings (I am assuming that your children are biological siblings here), I think it makes sense to look at skills and milestones through that lens.  It is possible that your 4yo is very bright and struggling with something that makes it look as though her development is more average.

 

Based on what you've written, I would keep dyslexia and vision issues in the back of your mind as possibilities if things don't sort themselves out in the next year or two.

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I have a child the same age and that seems normal. If he draws a face, the eyes are above the head and the ears are in one corner and the mouth is on top of the eyes or something. As long as she knows the shapes when she sees them, I don’t think drawing is a necessary milestone at age 4.

 

Edit: He can name all of the letters but doesn’t pay close enough attention to recognize his name. He probably could pick out his name if he really wanted to, but he doesn’t. Not knowing any letters at all by name is behind average for that skill, but I don’t know enough to say whether it’s problem-behind. Has she had much exposure to letters?

Edited by HTRMom

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I am going to go against the group here and say that what you're describing may indicate...something.

 

When a child has advanced siblings (I am assuming that your children are biological siblings here), I think it makes sense to look at skills and milestones through that lens.  It is possible that your 4yo is very bright and struggling with something that makes it look as though her development is more average.

 

Based on what you've written, I would keep dyslexia and vision issues in the back of your mind as possibilities if things don't sort themselves out in the next year or two.

 

Thank you - I definitely will.

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she sounds  fine.

 

i know it's hard to have a child who is slower/isn't interested etc. when you've had kids who were advanced.  it skews perception.

 

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I think she sounds perfectly normal. The only alarm bell was the eye crossing and how much she hates the eye doctor, together with the eye problems in the family. I would wonder about vision issues.

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The low end of normal is still normal.  This kind of developmental stages has really nothing to do with intelligence.  Please don't worry.

 

Does it help to think of it like walking?  Many late walkers are really good athletes.  It's the same with this type of things.  Her brain has been busy developing other areas (hence the face being ahead).  It can't do everything at once.

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Those things you listed are poor markers for the average child, but great ones for the people pleasing child.  They are things that a child does to please another person, but are not often skills that a child develops because they are interested in such a thing.  I think better markers would be looking at how a child approaches a task, how they gain knowledge, and what skills they are developing.

 

I think this is really important, and the overall picture doesn't bother me. But I am really, really thinking vision issue...more on why later.

 

We did do a vision exam, although she was... to put it mildly... not compliant. But the doc said that she was pretty sure she got a decent look at her retinas and that she didn't think she needed glasses.

 

She likes to cross her eyes for fun. I was a bit worried because middle DD needed glasses starting at 3 because of a lazy eye. But, eye doc said not so with her. I may try again with another eye doctor. She DESPISED the eye exam for some reason. When we went to the pedi's office, she asked me 3 times to make sure it was NOT the eye doctor. Even knowing that she would get shots, she'd prefer that to the eye doctor.

 

Frankly, this convinces me more that it could be a developmental issue--beyond lazy eyes and retinas, I don't trust very many optometrists. One a straight count, more of the optometrists I've seen personally have screwed up my exams than got them right. Add in with my kids, and the number of screw ups just increases. 

 

There are developmental vision issues that require very specific kinds of exams, unless, after having normal vision, a child suddenly starts seeing double (or quadruple or some other variation) AND can tell you that.

 

I would bet dollars to donuts she has some kind of developmental vision issue, and the exam is uncomfortable in some way (perhaps when the doctor puts things near her face, she sees multiples of the object, and it literally "blocks" her field of vision--that would make me feel claustrophobic. Since I don't have these issues myself, I am guessing. But a lot of my guessing is based on my kids and their eye issues (that are now solved with vision therapy). I would bet that she is avoiding tasks that depend on some kind of visual motor ability.

 

Sounds normal to me. I'm pretty sure that my kids had no idea what a plus sign was at that age, and they are bright. 

 

I have been assuming the child is copying from a model on paper--if she is not, that would change my thinking on this a lot. But most kids can draw simple stuff from a model unless they have vision issues, motor issues, or serious executive functioning issues that prevent them from breaking the task up into pieces to accomplish it. I wouldn't think the stuff she was requested to draw required a lot of EF.

 

If she is asked verbally to do this with no model, it could still be a problem--like maybe she doesn't know shapes due to a vision issue, or maybe she has trouble doing pen and pencil activities that require crossing the midline.

 

I am going to go against the group here and say that what you're describing may indicate...something.

 

When a child has advanced siblings (I am assuming that your children are biological siblings here), I think it makes sense to look at skills and milestones through that lens.  It is possible that your 4yo is very bright and struggling with something that makes it look as though her development is more average.

 

Based on what you've written, I would keep dyslexia and vision issues in the back of your mind as possibilities if things don't sort themselves out in the next year or two.

:iagree:, quite strongly. I have two gifted kids with heaps of issues that don't go away on their own!

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Sounds normal to me. My just turned 4yo doesn't recognize his name or draw shapes yet. He knows his shapes, but his drawing skills are still at scribbling level. I don't see anything to worry about yet, kids develop differently and 4-5 seems to be an age with tons of new skills to develop.

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Sounds fine to me, although I suppose there is room for a *possible* visual problem or fine motor skill issue. Still, I wouldn't panic about it - I'd keep an eye on it and see if she improves by next year.

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What do they learn at preK if they already know all this stuff?

 

At my dds' preschool, they learned the next thing, whatever they might be. So some kids were learning the alphabet while others were learning to read, and so on. 

 

Advantages of a tiny school with very experienced teachers! 

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with eye crossing - and hates eye doctor - PLEASE find a developmental eye care provider.   doesn't matter if they're an OD or an Ophthal, needs to be developmental - a pediatric specialist is a good place to look for one .  I speak from experience.

I have strabismus and amblyopia - I detest most eye care providers (doesn't matter if they're an OD or a Ophthal.  the way they conduct their eye exams make me physically ill.) - they forget everything they learned in school, and most  know little or even nothing about what to do when faced with a real developmental eye patient.  (unless that's all they see.)

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with eye crossing - and hates eye doctor - PLEASE find a developmental eye care provider. doesn't matter if they're an OD or an Ophthal, needs to be developmental - a pediatric specialist is a good place to look for one . I speak from experience.

I have strabismus and amblyopia - I detest most eye care providers (doesn't matter if they're an OD or a Ophthal. the way they conduct their eye exams make me physically ill.) - they forget everything they learned in school, and most know little or even nothing about what to do when faced with a real developmental eye patient. (unless that's all they see.)

I will look into this. I will say the eye crossing is entirely voluntary and within her control.

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In the US?

 

Having them draw pictures, etc etc...in the pediatrician's office?

Never heard of that.

My son was always asked stuff like this in his well check ups. They are looking to see if the child is meeting developmental milestones. Good pediatricians care for the whole child. He always had developmental tasks to complete. The doctor came in the room with a “bag of tricksâ€during those preschool years. It was a lot of fun, honestly.

 

I remember the two year old checkup particularly well. The doctor gave him some locks and he made a stack with them. Then the doctor have him a baby doll and a bottle and he put it down. The doctor gave it back to him and asked him to feed it. He put it down on the exam table and held the bottle to its lips for about a second. Apparently ds didn’t think the doll was incredibly hungry.

 

If the pediatrician didn’t have any issues with your daughter’s evaluation, I wouldn’t worry about it at all. She sounds totally normal.

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