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Have you seen Hamilton?

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No. Don't even know what it's about. I keep seeing things referencing it in pinterest and wondered when I got old and have no idea what's going on anymore.

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I’d love to go, but it’s too much money. $80 per ticket would be the absolute most I could spend on a single few-hour long event. And even then, DH would balk at it. But DH balks at any money that leaves the house. :)

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No. Don't even know what it's about. I keep seeing things referencing it in pinterest and wondered when I got old and have no idea what's going on anymore.

There’s a clue in the title. ;)

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No. Don't even know what it's about. I keep seeing things referencing it in pinterest and wondered when I got old and have no idea what's going on anymore.

 

Do you ever watch the YouTube series "Elders React To..." where they get a bunch of senior citizens and ask them to comment on pop culture / memes?  They tried Hamilton on that crowd and they were totally aware of it...."Oh isn't this marvelous, I know all about it, it was on 60 Minutes!"

 

It cracked me up because my mom never misses 60 Minutes.  It's a thing with all her friends. 

Just saying, if you were 65-70ish, you would know about it.

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Do you ever watch the YouTube series "Elders React To..." where they get a bunch of senior citizens and ask them to comment on pop culture / memes? They tried Hamilton on that crowd and they were totally aware of it...."Oh isn't this marvelous, I know all about it, it was on 60 Minutes!"

 

It cracked me up because my mom never misses 60 Minutes. It's a thing with all her friends.

Just saying, if you were 65-70ish, you would know about it.

Oh :lol: the only tv I ever see is sesame street and pokemon. :lol:

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I did say they could ;). And she didn’t sermonize me over why I should worship at the flawless social justice alter of Miranda, and how calling him a tool is blasphemy, etc and amen.

Basically what she said.

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Do you ever watch the YouTube series "Elders React To..." where they get a bunch of senior citizens and ask them to comment on pop culture / memes?  They tried Hamilton on that crowd and they were totally aware of it...."Oh isn't this marvelous, I know all about it, it was on 60 Minutes!"

 

It cracked me up because my mom never misses 60 Minutes.  It's a thing with all her friends. 

Just saying, if you were 65-70ish, you would know about it.

 

I don't think I've met anyone IRL who doesn't know what it is - any age from high school on up.  I tend to not pay attention to Hollywood or People Magazine or similar and Hamilton still got through (as do other top theater productions).  Top movies do too, regardless of whether I care to watch them or not.  Some things just seem to seep in I suppose.  ;)

 

I still can't name all that many professional sports teams though - or fashion items.

 

Such is life.  No regrets.

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I did say they could ;). And she didn’t sermonize me over why I should worship at the flawless social justice alter of Miranda, and how calling him a tool is blasphemy, etc and amen.

 

"He's not a social idiot  and narcissist like Kanye" does not = shame on you for not worshiping his flawless social justice.    I get you're not a fan.  That's OK.  No one has to like everything.  I think those Outlander books are awful, which I know is blasphemy to many readers!    But if you're gonna compare someone to Kanye and Trump and [insert widely disliked public figure],  there should be a reason. 

 

I was honestly hoping you'd parry back with a "but these are the bad things about him!"  because I was curious if there are any.   

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"He's not a social idiot and narcissist like Kanye" does not = shame on you for not worshiping his flawless social justice. I get you're not a fan. That's OK. No one has to like everything. I think those Outlander books are awful, which I know is blasphemy to many readers! But if you're gonna compare someone to Kanye and Trump and [insert widely disliked public figure], there should be a reason.

 

I was honestly hoping you'd parry back with a "but these are the bad things about him!" because I was curious if there are any.

I was just picking names out of air with those two, and can’t get into details because of board rules. I said about as much as diplomatically as I could, given my thoughts on the subject. *shrug*

 

About the only stuff of his I’ve avtually liked has been his work on Moana.

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I loved the show! An amazing performance. I'd say the tickets at face value are worth the price. I bought tickets for my family last fall when a new block was released for American Express cardholders. It was one of those deals where you had to be ready to buy the tickets the minute they went on sale. All the Mez level tickets were sold out within 10 minutes. They were about $180 each. It was the best Christmas present ever last year--despite having to wait six months it!

 

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Um, what?

One of the casting calls stated that whites need not apply. Miranda took some heat from the actors’ guild so the notice deleted the words, but Miranda said that he still wouldn’t cast non-hispanic whites.

 

I’ll try to post links.

ETA: I just did a search for “Hamilton not hiring whites†and there are many articles to chose from.

Edited by Fifiruth

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I posted the whole story in a recent thread, but yes, I was planning to wait until our local high school does it, but was given the chance to go twice (in SF) and loved it. Hubby even consented to come the second time and he enjoyed it. I wouldn't say it was "life-changing" like some of my cousins did, but I love history and stories and this was so well done. I cry every time when Eliza burns his letters, and the "un-deux-trois" trio (duet?) w/Eliza and their son (don't want to give any spoilers :) ). Oh, and the "It's Quiet Uptown" song is unbelievably sad. King George is a fun comic relief. The energy of the singers and dancers, and the sense of adventure and excitement (& complexity) of young people starting a whole new kind of country is, frankly, just fun. Especially when it's easy to feel depressed about the state of things these days.

 

Oh, but no way was I willing to mortgage the house to go see it. I got "partial view" (cheapest) seats & they were fine. We were fortunate that it was in SF for about 5 months, so people not caught up in the hype (us, friends of ours) could dither and still see it. And, we personally know at least four sets of people who won the lottery in SF and LA, which gives you fantastic seats (the next day) for $10.

Edited by Laura in CA
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Do you ever watch the YouTube series "Elders React To..." where they get a bunch of senior citizens and ask them to comment on pop culture / memes?  They tried Hamilton on that crowd and they were totally aware of it...."Oh isn't this marvelous, I know all about it, it was on 60 Minutes!"

 

It cracked me up because my mom never misses 60 Minutes.  It's a thing with all her friends. 

Just saying, if you were 65-70ish, you would know about it.

 

We bought a gc for my 80 something year old FIL for Christmas a few years ago because he wanted to see it so bad... went on and on about it. I was like, what? Has he heard the music? Does he know what it is like? Of course that was before I knew and fell in love with it, lol. Sadly he died 2 months later, before he was able to go see it.

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It goes deeper than just "whites need not apply". It's not the first Broadway show that requires actors of a specific ethnicity because of how it's written or what it says or what it stands for.

 

https://www.snopes.com/hamilton-non-white-casting-call/

The Book of Mormon comes to mind as a show where you are probably not going to cast white people to play the African villagers. Or non white actors to play the Mormon men.

 

 

The Color Purple musical —- I can’t see white actors playing lead roles in that either. I could be wrong , I only listened to that one once.

 

For Hamilton, it was never whites need not apply, the singing / dancing troop is colorblind casting . Several biggish roles are played by white actors in the cast recording (Samuel Seabury, Charles Lee). The only ‘non-colorblind casting’ is for the primary roles: Hamilton, Burr, Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Hamilton’s son and the Schuyler sisters.

Edited by poppy
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One of the casting calls stated that whites need not apply. Miranda took some heat from the actors’ guild so the notice deleted the words, but Miranda said that he still wouldn’t cast non-hispanic whites.

 

I’ll try to post links.

ETA: I just did a search for “Hamilton not hiring whites†and there are many articles to chose from.

Clearly you are not active in the theatre industry in any way.

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I am not the show's biggest fan, but it's art. I appreciate how it's increased interest ( especially of our youth and young adults) in the cultural arts. I am very curious to see what influence it will have on the future of musical theater.

This is where I’m at, as well. Hamilton is an industry now.
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Have you seen it? 

 

 

Did you LOVE it? 

To spend that kind of $ for me it would have to be the best show.

 

 

How much were tickets when you went? 

 

No, but my daughter is a little obsessed. Okay a lot obsessed.

 

We didn't win the lottery, but I absolutely love how they're doing that to prevent reselling, so I have a ton of respect for the show.

 

I would consider it as a Christmas gift for my musical-theater obsessed child and a friend. I love the music. I haven't been this inspired by musical theater possibly ever. It's all so OLD. And I have to say, they bring a passion to American history and the ideas of the revolution that I never felt before. I want to see the production and then watch Les Mis with the kids. To me that would be really interesting and start a great discussion.

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It goes deeper than just "whites need not apply". It's not the first Broadway show that requires actors of a specific ethnicity because of how it's written or what it says or what it stands for. 

 

https://www.snopes.com/hamilton-non-white-casting-call/

 

Thanks for posting this.  I figured there was more to the story than the basic line.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing it, but it will be some months before it comes to Rochester.

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Thanks for posting this. I figured there was more to the story than the basic line.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing it, but it will be some months before it comes to Rochester.

The parts did not require that the actors be non-white; it’s just how he wanted it. It doesn’t surprise me, though, that some of you think that his exclusion of whites was just fine. He has said that he wanted the play to have characters that looked like his neighborhood.

 

So, if an artist decides that they want to tell the stories of Martin Luther King and perhaps Hugo Chavez, but non-whites need not apply because he wants the actors to look like people from his white neighborhood so that he can relate to the stories, you would be okay with that?

 

It’s not good enough for Miranda to say, hey whites can apply, but I’m not going to hire any of them. A truly inclusive cast would have been a beautiful thing, but then it wouldn’t have had the same political message.

Edited by Fifiruth

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The parts did not require that the actors be non-white; it’s just how he wanted it. It doesn’t surprise me, though, that some of you think that his exclusion of whites was just fine. He has said that he wanted the play to have characters that looked like his neighborhood.

 

So, if an artist decides that they want to tell the stories of Martin Luther King and perhaps Hugo Chavez, but non-whites need not apply because he wants the actors to look like people from his white neighborhood so that he can relate to the stories, you would be okay with that?

 

It’s not good enough for Miranda to say, hey whites can apply, but I’m not going to hire any of them. A truly inclusive cast would have been a beautiful thing, but then it wouldn’t have had the same political message.

 

Have you ever been upset about any other show on Broadway having a "truly inclusive cast?"  or is it just this one?.

 

White actors absolutely dominate Broadway.  Which, you can are about or not, but being super mad about 7 roles seems a bit ..... imbalanced.

 

And once again, there are a whole bunch of white people in the cast.... you can use the 360 feature to

n this video.

 

I remember why people are mad at him, now, his Saturday Night Live performance where he insulted a photo of then-candidate Trump.  Just for context, that was the same week his "grab her by the _____" recording came out, feelings were a bit raw.

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Tickets are crazy expensive.  It is a shame theater is out of reach for so many people; and IMHO even more a shame that the structurally sanctioned ticket resale gouging -- what in my high school days was called "hawking," and done by shady characters standing in the rain outside concert venues -- is permitted to persist and flourish.

 

We go to theater whenever we can.  All kinds, the gilded classic Broadway venues,  Off-Off-Off on the lower very-very East side with folding metal chairs, and local theaters in three directions of our CT suburb.

 

We saw Hamilton before it won the MacArthur and prices got out of hand.  Yes, it really is that good.  That CD was the soundtrack OF OUR LIVES for over a year.  

 

 

...

I read the biography that inspired Miranda to write the musical and on that I am willing to call him a genius because the book was incredibly B-O-R-I-N-G.

 

I appreciate the fact that the Hamilton phenomenon has piqued an interest in US history in people who would not normally care about US history but are willing to listen because it is cool/ popular...

 

:lol:

 

Right.  I wouldn't advise letting experience reading Chernow's book dissuade you from the show.  There are... differences.

 

That LMM read that tome, and SAW HIMSELF in it, and thought -- And I know just the medium for this story, a hip hop opera -- yes, that is genius.

 

 

 

When the original cast announced its departure date, we bit the bullet, opened up the secondary market ticket sellers' websites, took out a second mortgage (OK not really but, unconscionable) and saw it again, within days of LMM and Chris Jackson's departure.  The kids chose that over going to Disney.

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Poor, poor beleaguered whites.

Right? Cry me a river.

 

Hamilton is in San Diego right now. My husband balked at ticket prices, so I'm stuck entering the Powerball with the rest of the plebes.

 

After visiting Puerto Rico last month, you could really tell how proud they were of his success and grateful for his help in recovery. Love me some LMM.

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The parts did not require that the actors be non-white; it’s just how he wanted it. It doesn’t surprise me, though, that some of you think that his exclusion of whites was just fine. He has said that he wanted the play to have characters that looked like his neighborhood.

 

So, if an artist decides that they want to tell the stories of Martin Luther King and perhaps Hugo Chavez, but non-whites need not apply because he wants the actors to look like people from his white neighborhood so that he can relate to the stories, you would be okay with that?

 

It’s not good enough for Miranda to say, hey whites can apply, but I’m not going to hire any of them. A truly inclusive cast would have been a beautiful thing, but then it wouldn’t have had the same political message.

 

You mean like The Wiz?

 

Or Hamlet?

 

Or Macbeth, done by Orson Wells?

 

 

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Right? Cry me a river.

 

Hamilton is in San Diego right now. My husband balked at ticket prices, so I'm stuck entering the Powerball with the rest of the plebes.

 

After visiting Puerto Rico last month, you could really tell how proud they were of his success and grateful for his help in recovery. Love me some LMM.

Lottery? How? I'm not far from San Diego.

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Lottery? How? I'm not far from San Diego.

Download the Hamilton app. It makes it easy to enter the lottery each day. But, take me if you win. ;)

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I read the biography that inspired Miranda to write the musical and on that I am willing to call him a genius because the book was incredibly B-O-R-I-N-G.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right.  I wouldn't advise letting experience reading Chernow's book dissuade you from the show.  There are... differences.

 

That LMM read that tome, and SAW HIMSELF in it, and thought -- And I know just the medium for this story, a hip hop opera -- yes, that is genius.

 

 

 

 

 

So apparently LMM and I are the only ones who actually liked the book. At least I'm in good company. :D

 

OTOH, I didn't immediately think "Oh, this would make a great hip hop musical". That's what makes him an artist, and me - well - not an artist.  :lol:

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re Chernow's book, and identification with it

So apparently LMM and I are the only ones who actually liked the book. At least I'm in good company. :D

 

OTOH, I didn't immediately think "Oh, this would make a great hip hop musical". That's what makes him an artist, and me - well - not an artist.  :lol:

 

:laugh:

 

Actually, I liked the book fine when it came out, back when I used to have an attention span and was capable of finishing such tomes (sigh).

 

What I didn't do, though, was *see within the bones of Hamilton's life story and psyche, the bones of my own,* and the way that LMM DID...  the plucky immigrant, impatient youth, boundless restless energy, vision of a better world, desperation about a ticking existential clock, recklessness about relationships, and -- particularly, I think these are the strongest scenes in the story -- recognition of mistakes arising out of both haste and arrogance along the way... is why the story is to me GENIUS rather than "very good."  

 

Why do you write like you're running out of time?

 

 

That he read Chernow's depiction of Hamilton ("very good") and saw, not an interesting character developable into a innovative musical, but "OMG that guy is just like ME!!!"

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re Chernow's book, and identification with it

 

:laugh:

 

Actually, I liked the book fine when it came out, back when I used to have an attention span and was capable of finishing such tomes (sigh).

 

What I didn't do, though, was *see within the bones of Hamilton's life story and psyche, the bones of my own,* and the way that LMM DID...  the plucky immigrant, impatient youth, boundless restless energy, vision of a better world, desperation about a ticking existential clock, recklessness about relationships, and -- particularly, I think these are the strongest scenes in the story -- recognition of mistakes arising out of both haste and arrogance along the way... is why the story is to me GENIUS rather than "very good."  

 

Why do you write like you're running out of time?

 

 

That he read Chernow's depiction of Hamilton ("very good") and saw, not an interesting character developable into a innovative musical, but "OMG that guy is just like ME!!!"

 

He's also closer to the immigrant experience than some of us here. Yes, Puerto Ricans are Americans but I don't think anyone could honestly equate moving from Puerto Rico to the Continental U.S. with moving from one state to another. His father, though American, was an immigrant. He also grew up in an immigrant neighborhood. I'm only 3rd generation American and yet I'm much farther removed from that experience than he is. He drew on his knowledge of the immigrants he grew up around for In the Heights obviously, but also for Hamilton.

 

"Immigrants. We get the job done."

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We haven't seen it yet. Tickets in our area open up in March and I am sooo hoping to be able to afford them. We shall see. 

My daughter started listening to it when she was 15. It took her a whole year to convince us to try it. We finally did - we downloaded it on itunes and omg it was so incredible. We had all memorized it within a month. The younger kids acted out scenes with their friends. It was an obsession.  It was the best writing we have heard in so long - he is absolutely an incredible artist. If they were to perform his songs at the average speed of broadway shows it would take 5-6 hours, that's how packed they are.  

 

I played it on a long car ride for my mom, who's not really into much mainstream music and doesn't keep up with shows. After the last bars ended there was a long moment of silence, and then my mom said "THAT was incredible". My mom, who rarely praises anything, was impressed.  

Yeah, we are huge fans. 

 

My dh and dd have both read the book and loved it. I haven't picked it up yet.

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You mean like The Wiz?

 

Or Hamlet?

 

Or Macbeth, done by Orson Wells?

No, the Wiz characters are make believe, and we’re not taking about Shakespeare’s works either. Hamilton, Chavez, and King are all real, fairly modern, historical figures. Address the core objection. Excluding whites from being hired was and is racist, so I won’t be going to see it. That’s it, basically.

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re LMM's proximity to Immigrants, we get the job done

He's also closer to the immigrant experience than some of us here. Yes, Puerto Ricans are Americans but I don't think anyone could honestly equate moving from Puerto Rico to the Continental U.S. with moving from one state to another. His father, though American, was an immigrant. He also grew up in an immigrant neighborhood. I'm only 3rd generation American and yet I'm much farther removed from that experience than he is. He drew on his knowledge of the immigrants he grew up around for In the Heights obviously, but also for Hamilton.

 

"Immigrants. We get the job done."

 

 

Right.  His first (and only other!!! also Tony award-winning!) musical, the first version of which he wrote as a 20-year old still in college (!!), In The Heights, is a total celebration of the Dominican/Puerto Rican neighborhood in which he grew up and still lives.  You can hear in both Alabanza and the finale LMM working out the same preoccupation with legacy that emerges in Hamilton, who lives who dies who tells your story....

 

He's a man with a mission, around the power of stories to transform from we are powerless (best song in Heights IMNSHO) to heal the world.

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No, the Wiz characters are make believe, and we’re not taking about Shakespeare’s works either. Hamilton, Chavez, and King are all real, fairly modern, historical figures. Address the core objection. Excluding whites from being hired was and is racist, so I won’t be going to see it. That’s it, basically.

 

Ah.  So you are offended by people who were actually white men being portrayed by someone of some other race.

 

I saw Jesus Christ Superstar on stage when I was a teen.  Caiaphas and Judas were played by black men.  Jesus was played by a very pale blond white guy.  Pretty sure they were all Jewish, but no biggie.  They could sing the roles and that's what mattered.

 

LMM conceived of the musical with black men playing the parts.  It's how he wrote the script.  The characters are black/Hispanic/etc.  It is very common for scripts to call for characters to be of a certain race.  That's not racist.  That's how the writer "saw" the characters.

 

If you are not going to hire a white person to play Burr, Jefferson, Hamilton, etc. then it would make sense to say whites should not apply.  Basically, it would be a waste of time for all involved.  This is VERY common in the theater world when they want someone of a specific race to play a character.

 

(ETA: And there ARE white people in Hamilton's cast.)

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No, the Wiz characters are make believe, and we’re not taking about Shakespeare’s works either. Hamilton, Chavez, and King are all real, fairly modern, historical figures. Address the core objection. Excluding whites from being hired was and is racist, so I won’t be going to see it. That’s it, basically.

A play in the genre of historical realism telling the story of the founding fathers would require that the actors playing the lead roles be white. This play is a musical that weaves together the experiences of immigrants/people of color with the stories of America's founding, holding the tensions of the universal ideas with the irony of how that has played out historically. It doesn't require color-blind casting any more that the historical realist play would. The lead roles are cast as non-white because that is part of the vision of the play. You can decide that's not a vision you're interested in seeing, of course.

 

And, as multiple people have pointed out, whites are not excluded from being hired. There are white people in the cast.

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LMM conceived of the musical with black men playing the parts.  It's how he wrote the script.  The characters are black/Hispanic/etc.  It is very common for scripts to call for characters to be of a certain race.  That's not racist.  That's how the writer "saw" the characters.

 

 

 

 

A play in the genre of historical realism telling the story of the founding fathers would require that the actors playing the lead roles be white. This play is a musical that weaves together the experiences of immigrants/people of color with the stories of America's founding, holding the tensions of the universal ideas with the irony of how that has played out historically. It doesn't require color-blind casting any more that the historical realist play would. The lead roles are cast as non-white because that is part of the vision of the play. You can decide that's not a vision you're interested in seeing, of course.

 

And, as multiple people have pointed out, whites are not excluded from being hired. There are white people in the cast.

 

 

Exactly. As LMM himself said numerous times it's the story of America then told by America now. 

 

Here he is discussing the reasons for casting. It's an interview in the UK from when it opened in the West End but he clearly explains his reasoning. It's hard to understand why anyone doesn't get it, says this white middle class senior citizen woman. 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-42464676/hamilton-creator-it-s-a-story-of-america-then-told-by-america-now

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The parts did not require that the actors be non-white; it’s just how he wanted it. It doesn’t surprise me, though, that some of you think that his exclusion of whites was just fine. He has said that he wanted the play to have characters that looked like his neighborhood.

 

So, if an artist decides that they want to tell the stories of Martin Luther King and perhaps Hugo Chavez, but non-whites need not apply because he wants the actors to look like people from his white neighborhood so that he can relate to the stories, you would be okay with that?

 

It’s not good enough for Miranda to say, hey whites can apply, but I’m not going to hire any of them. A truly inclusive cast would have been a beautiful thing, but then it wouldn’t have had the same political message.

 

To me it depends upon the reasoning of it all - in any situation.  If it were the KKK doing it, no, I'd choose not to see it.  If it were an artist trying to make a good point then I'd be fine with it.  I see Hamilton fitting the latter and not the former.

 

I think it's perfectly fine to have folks of any race, and in some cases gender, playing historical roles in the past.  I don't think we need to be limiting options.  In this case there's a totally different view he's trying to get across.  I'm ok with that.  I don't see it as racist at all.

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No, the Wiz characters are make believe, and we’re not taking about Shakespeare’s works either. Hamilton, Chavez, and King are all real, fairly modern, historical figures. Address the core objection. Excluding whites from being hired was and is racist, so I won’t be going to see it. That’s it, basically.

 

Is excluding non-whites from being cast as King George racist?

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To me it depends upon the reasoning of it all - in any situation.  If it were the KKK doing it, no, I'd choose not to see it.  If it were an artist trying to make a good point then I'd be fine with it.  I see Hamilton fitting the latter and not the former.

 

I think it's perfectly fine to have folks of any race, and in some cases gender, playing historical roles in the past.  I don't think we need to be limiting options.  In this case there's a totally different view he's trying to get across.  I'm ok with that.  I don't see it as racist at all.

 

I agree.  And also, I think it's perfectly fine to bend the political rules a bit for groups who have not had the same opportunities in the past.

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I'd love to get my ds tickets when they come to our state.  I'm on a notification list when they're available.  I'd love to see it too, but maybe not for the ticket price they're asking.  I'd pay it for my ds though because he loves the arts and great shows and I'm sure he would love it.

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I have tickets to see it in Seattle in March and can't wait!! We've been obsessed with it for ages, it still plays on repeat multiple times a week. I follow Lin on social media and every day his posts inspire and excite me. He deserves every award and accolade he has received, he truly is a genius. I can't wait to see what he does next.

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The idea was the kids of any race could identify with the early American ‘founding fathers.’ Having a cast that would exclude black , Asian and Latino actors .... I’m trying to imagine how that would improve the show . I mean every kid has already seen these historical figures and knows they’re white - it’s no secret. It’s on the currency .

 

I guess they’d be able to cast black actors to play the slaves when Jefferson visits Monticello? But , they couldn’t, since the supporting cast all plays multiple roles over a 40 year story . They could hire black actors just for that one small scene, I guess. Is that an improvement and less racist?

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Yes, I saw it when it opened in Chicago. I didn't pay for the tickets so I'm not sure how much they were. I love the show and think Miranda is doing some wonderful things.

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I just checked to see the closest performance to me, and it is Cleveland. I'd get tickets for it, if they were even remotely affordable, even though it's an 11 hour drive :lol:

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