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Sarah J.

Foundation in Sounds, LiPS, etc.

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I am a long time lurker, first time poster. DD is recently turned 8, 2nd grade, always home schooled. I have long suspected dyslexia, but she always was making progress with phonics/reading, just never quite with the master I though she should have or "taking off." She is very bright, very verbal, with a large vocabulary and excellent listening comprehension. Will listen to chapter after chapter and beg for more, and understand what's going on. If she could read chapter books, she totally would. Adults who talk to her typically think she's very bright. Very good social skills for her age, almost too good, lots of empathy and tact.

 

So, a brief summary. She has been in Vision Therapy since last fall when a screening revealed difficulty with side-to-side tracking, eye teaming, and saccades. She has had a lot of improvement in reading over that time. She still guesses a lot (she is very good at contextual guessing) and makes a lot of mistakes she shouldn't make, based on the amount of phonics instruction she's had. We were using LoE: Foundations and Let's Read. If I use my finger to help her track, she can read about a paragraph of Little House on the Prairie or about a page of Boxcar Children before tuckering out (buddy reading). But she still gets hung up on words she should know how to decode/blend, especially those beginning with consonant combinations (snug, globe). And she cannot spell. She misspells "and." In the past month, she has spend "and" as "end" and as "aed" (?!?!). Handwriting is an issue as well, but not one we've been prioritizing -- we do a page of Getty-Dubai every day, but I've been hoping the VT would help with it.

 

Yesterday we (finally, why did this take me so long?) did the Barton screening. She did not pass part C (she passed A and B, though she did miss one clapping syllables question). She got 4 wrong even after repeat. And yes, /a/ vs /e/ was one of the ones she couldn't do. Also, we've been practicing a Latin song for her children's choir, and even when looking at my mouth she has trouble repeating the words back to me. Like, I say "Laudantes" very clearly, breaking up the syllables, she can't say it back without error. 

 

So we clearly need something like LiPS and Foundation in Sounds. I saw in another post that some of you have reservations about FiS, but has anyone actually tried it yet? It's pretty new and I am not finding any reviews except what's on their website.  But Susan Barton's stamp of approval should count for something, right? I just don't know if I have the mental bandwidth to wrap my brain around figuring out LiPS right now (I have 3 other kids, including an 8-month-old baby), and affording a tutor would be really hard. My inclination is to order FiS like today or tomorrow, but I'd really like to hear first if there are reasons I shouldn't. 

 

We had a screening (brief IQ test and some other screens) with a psychologist, and we were told, "She is smart, her verbal IQ is higher than nonverbal (there was a 20+ point gap, I think verbal was 130-something, "superior," and nonverbal was 111, "average range," but this was before VT--she could not count a horizontal row accurately with 1-to-1 correspondence before VT), she probably has some kind of LD, you may need a specialist eval but I don't know where to refer you that would take your insurance, try the Dyslexia Center (which is far away and has a waiting list), I will refer her for OT for handwriting (have not gotten the promised call about this)." Oh, and "don't crush her spirit."

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You may need an evaluation through a neuropsychologist if one is available but insurance indeed could be an issue.

 

As for the difference between LiPS and Foundations in Sound, FiS looks infinitely easier to implement.  Unfortunately I don't know anyone who has actually used the program.   Hopefully someone who has will respond.

 

LiPS was not easy.  Not impossible either but if you have had no background in this it is a pretty steep learning curve.  FiS breaks it down and is designed for a layman to implement.  Therefore it looks like it is more akin to Barton in approach.  Whatever you do, I agree, she is probably dyslexic and with not passing C section I would absolutely start with LiPS or FiS.  If FiS had been available when we first started this journey I would probably have tried that first, TBH.

 

I'm going to comment on some specifics of your post in a minute but I wanted to get this out first. 

 

Best wishes.

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I am a long time lurker, first time poster. DD is recently turned 8, 2nd grade, always home schooled. I have long suspected dyslexia, but she always was making progress with phonics/reading, just never quite with the master I though she should have or "taking off." She is very bright, very verbal, with a large vocabulary and excellent listening comprehension. Will listen to chapter after chapter and beg for more, and understand what's going on. If she could read chapter books, she totally would. Adults who talk to her typically think she's very bright. Very good social skills for her age, almost too good, lots of empathy and tact.

 

Yep, sounds very familiar.  (And FWIW both of my kids are dyslexic.)  :)

 

So, a brief summary. She has been in Vision Therapy since last fall when a screening revealed difficulty with side-to-side tracking, eye teaming, and saccades. She has had a lot of improvement in reading over that time. She still guesses a lot (she is very good at contextual guessing) and makes a lot of mistakes she shouldn't make, based on the amount of phonics instruction she's had. We were using LoE: Foundations and Let's Read. If I use my finger to help her track, she can read about a paragraph of Little House on the Prairie or about a page of Boxcar Children before tuckering out (buddy reading). But she still gets hung up on words she should know how to decode/blend, especially those beginning with consonant combinations (snug, globe). And she cannot spell. She misspells "and." In the past month, she has spend "and" as "end" and as "aed" (?!?!). Handwriting is an issue as well, but not one we've been prioritizing -- we do a page of Getty-Dubai every day, but I've been hoping the VT would help with it.

 

Again, this sounds very familiar.  The problem is multi-fold if she really is dyslexic and is also having trouble with auditory processing (which is different from hearing issues).  Think about it for a minute.  There are a lot of ways we pronounce things that are hard to tie to a systematic way of spelling that immediately makes sense.  As adults that have been writing these words for years it just seems logical but words like "and" actually are NOT that easy to spell, especially if you also involve regional dialects.  Vowels can be really tricky.  The letter "a" makes many sounds, for instance.  Both of my kids needed to step waaaaaayyyyyy back and start over with learning how to break apart those sounds, then letter sound associations, everything broken up into tiny pieces then reassembled many times in many ways before it all started to gel.  Most normal phonics based programs make too many leaps of understanding.  Dyslexics usually cannot make those leaps.  They need it all explicitly spelled out in very clear, small pieces that then tie back in to the bigger picture, involving several approaches (such as how Barton and other OG based programs designed for dyslexics incorporate).  

 

Yesterday we (finally, why did this take me so long?) did the Barton screening. She did not pass part C (she passed A and B, though she did miss one clapping syllables question). She got 4 wrong even after repeat. And yes, /a/ vs /e/ was one of the ones she couldn't do. Also, we've been practicing a Latin song for her children's choir, and even when looking at my mouth she has trouble repeating the words back to me. Like, I say "Laudantes" very clearly, breaking up the syllables, she can't say it back without error. 

 

It does sound like she may have an auditory processing disorder (APD or sometimes called CAPD for Central Auditory Processing Disorder).  If so that will make any phonics instruction infinitely harder.  Hopefully FiS or LiPS will really help with that.

 

So we clearly need something like LiPS and Foundation in Sounds. I saw in another post that some of you have reservations about FiS, but has anyone actually tried it yet? It's pretty new and I am not finding any reviews except what's on their website.  But Susan Barton's stamp of approval should count for something, right? I just don't know if I have the mental bandwidth to wrap my brain around figuring out LiPS right now (I have 3 other kids, including an 8-month-old baby), and affording a tutor would be really hard. My inclination is to order FiS like today or tomorrow, but I'd really like to hear first if there are reasons I shouldn't. 

 

We had a screening (brief IQ test and some other screens) with a psychologist, and we were told, "She is smart, her verbal IQ is higher than nonverbal (there was a 20+ point gap, I think verbal was 130-something, "superior," and nonverbal was 111, "average range," but this was before VT--she could not count a horizontal row accurately with 1-to-1 correspondence before VT), she probably has some kind of LD, you may need a specialist eval but I don't know where to refer you that would take your insurance, try the Dyslexia Center (which is far away and has a waiting list), I will refer her for OT for handwriting (have not gotten the promised call about this)." Oh, and "don't crush her spirit."

 

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Thank you OneStep. Would an SLP be able to evaluate auditory processing, do you know? Or does that require the full neuropsych eval?

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An audiologist using a booth would probably be better for assessing APD. A neuropsychologist would not tweak out that aspect normally although they might be able to steer you to one if they suspect it is an issue during an evaluation.

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That sounds potentially more likely to be covered by insurance too? Here is the family history piece: my husband was speech-delayed. He was assessed a 3 months equivalent for expressive language when he was nearly 2--i.e. he essentially had no expressive language--though his receptive language was great. He went to a special early-intervention preschool and was all caught up with speaking by age 3. At 3 he also taught himself to read and was a young kid who would possibly be identified as hyperlexic today. He definitely isn't on the spectrum, though. He has excellent speech, writing, and spelling skills today. Nobody on either side of the family is dyslexic.

 

EDIT: Does anyone know of any FB groups for Barton users or dyslexia generally where I might ask about user experiences with FiS? Specifically, where that kind of a question would be welcome from a new member?

 

Another question: Is the Barton screening indicative of much for a 5-year-old? What I mean is, I know if you flunk it you can't start Barton, but might some 5yos be developmentally unready rather than having LDs/auditory issues needing remediation? Think I might go ahead and give it to my 5.5 yo boy.

Edited by Sarah J.

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I would not hesitate to use FIS with her. I've gotten a little feedback backchannel, and there's no reason to think it's not well-structured. My ds has *speech* problems on top of the SLDs, and he needed the particular things LIPS brings. I was able to link the faces to his speech therapy methodology, and it was magical. LIPS, after all, was developed by an SLP. But I think probably many kids will be fine with FIS. Buy it, use it, be in peace. If it doesn't work, return it and slam them to high heaven and let us know. :D  But seriously, I think it will be fine.

 

Ok, here's the thing. You're saying these things about social about her, and girl ASD is easy to miss. I'm not saying she has ASD, but an NVLD profile *does* overlap and lead right into the ASD question. She's in the fuzzy range where any deficits will begin to show up on pragmatics testing. It's not considered even really reliable till more like 10-11, but still on my ds (ASD1, borderline ASD2), he was able to pass a pragmatics test at 6 and fail by age 8. So I think your gut is right to be asking what ought to be on the table, and that's a way you would answer it, with social thinking/pragmatics and problem solving testing. An SLP can run them, and an SLP is sometimes easier to get covered and more affordable. You're wanting the Social Language Development Test (SLDT) and also the Test of Problem Solving (TOPS). Those are what you would be looking for. That's what the discrepancy in the IQ sections is hinting at and that's a way to look for issues.

 

Personally, I'd be wanting fuller evals. You could find a psych through Hoagie's Gifted. I would *at least* get a baseline CTOPP run by somebody before you being FIS. Doing FIS is destroying your baseline, because it's changing from regular teaching methods to intervention materials. So now, before you begin, would be a really good time to get that run. Lots of people can run a CTOPP, including Barton tutors, psychologists who own it, dyslexia/reading tutors who own it, etc. Sometimes an SLP will even have it. Around here, I can get an OG tutor to run the CTOPP and DAR (Direct Assessment of Reading) as part of their intake eval for only $75. Seriously. So if you could get that done, I'm saying that would be a smart baseline to take before FIS. It would give you a lot of information. 

 

The reason you'd like the information is because at some point all this is gonna hit the fan. You're going to end up at a psych, wanting everything explained, and some paper trail will help. Once you get the diagnosis, then you'll be eligible for BARD/NLS. We use it EXTENSIVELY and it saves us tons of money.

 

Btw, my ds has that crazy high vocabulary and listening to books things like your dd. Believe it or not, when we did language testing, turned out he had significant language *deficits* and now has a language delay label. He was quoting to us from books and listening to college lectures, but language delay. So without testing you can't assume you know. The giftedness is covering up and counterbalancing the deficits, so you're probably going to have some incorrect assumptions. If you want to blow the lid off that, find an SLP who deals with a lot of autism and just get some testing done. SLPs around here are usually $80-100, where neuropsychs are $250 an hour. So that's why I'm saying SLP. They could run the SLDT (that pragmatics I was telling you about), do an auditory processing screening test (there are a couple), and run a basic tool for language like the CASL or CELF. 

 

The unusual level of empathy is actually noteworthy. I think over time all the pieces will come together for you. Definitely try to get more testing done. What was her processing speed? Working memory? Those are going to impact dramatically how you work with her. And yes, go for FIS. 

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As I was alluding to earlier, the psych she saw did not do a great job of communication with us (didn't call back for two months, excuses about moving offices, then calls me and tells me stuff over the phone while I am in a noisy public place!). She told my husband (who took her for the screening) that she had run a "brief" IQ instrument, what verbal and NV scores were, and about the discrepancy. She said, IIRC, to him, that working memory was "pretty good." Nothing about processing speed. She told my husband, "I'm a generalist, you need a specialist"--but no referral.

 

Other than the fine motor and trouble-with-multi-step-directions things (which also tend to co-occur with dyslexia, right?) she doesn't seem to me to have red flags for NVLD. Like I said, good social skills, good at non-verbal cues and reading people. What is significant about the empathy piece? She does have 3 sibs and also a lot of interaction with young adults due to my husband's job/our living situation, and less with age-matched peers. Multiple adults who know her moderately well (Sunday school teacher, pediatrician) have used the word "mature."

 

EDIT: also I don't think her fine motor skills are horrible; she can draw My Little Ponies pretty well. She does not enjoy handwriting. She does have trouble cutting food with a knife. No speech issues except articulating the "th" sounds. 

 

EDIT 2: I read somewhere that apparent NVLD can be developmental vision deficit related and can resolve after VT?

 

Edited by Sarah J.

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Did they check her working memory visual and auditory? Can you try a few..in tests kn her to get an idea. This is how we found my sons capd but this sounds more dyslexia and vision related. I know it can be spendy I was able.to get my insurance to pay for wisc for both kiddos ans capd testing through an audiologist and SLP language ans pronunciation testing. It just didn't cover the broad achievement testing that would have been 250 and retained reflex testing.

 

I know lips is very good for phonetic discrimination but haven't used it personally. I used Saxon phonics because I didn't know about Barton.

I might suggest the trial version of Hearbuilder it could only help. Focus on the phonological parts. We worked on the auditory memory but I looked at the other parts and they are very good. Also their are some very good auditory elements in earobics If you can get your hands on a copy of that. All of these will help fill in more auditory with practace and help support your homeschool efforts the more you build the auditory system the better. She can do all this on her own at the computer with support and encouragement while you puzzle out the intensity of teaching lips or what you do for the dyslexia visual part.

 

 

 

 

For handwriting

Can she draw a square? A straightish line? A sloped line? Can she copy a word if you write it on line 1 and she copies right underneath it?

 

 

I love Getty and dubay workbooks but I think having her work on a white board or chalkboard hung on the wall will yield you far more results. My son took off with Getty and dubay when I hung a white board on the wall and had him do prewriting motion and G&D. Make sure the grip is good . After months we moved from the wall to a slantboard/drafting table and worked on whole shoulder writing. Do big motions, large shoulder letters and circles etc. White board figure eights by diane craft also helped after doing a million of them. It also helped with b and d and other letter reversals.

 

To puzzle out the dyslexia element

I would get color sheets and bookmark eye markers and see if this helps. Also the book you mentioned Is over a level 5 AR. If you want her to build fluency move her to very early chapter books then move to early chapter books like "Ivy and bean" & Gooney Bird GreeneGooney Bird Greene by Lois Lowry. Continue to practace partner reading have her read a page then you read a page. Also all about reading and lower AR books from AR FINDER from the library would be better. Look for interesting non fiction high low books. For kids to read faster they need to read at or below their current fluency. Once they master that they can read shorter books slightly above their fluency.if money I'd an issue at this point though if I had to choose between paying for Barton or paying for testing I would start Barton or.lips or whatever I could afford and strategies how to afford more testing in the near future. Keep a journal of all observations it will help in the future.

Edited by exercise_guru

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Wow, sounds like your first psych was WORTHLESS. That's horrible that she even took your money. :(

 

However she did say you need more in-depth evals. I'm losing track here, can you make them happen or are they off the table? Like I said, if a $$$ eval with a psych is off the table, then make happen what you *can* make happen. The articulation would be your leg in the door to the SLP. For age 8 she should have her /th/. At this point even the ps would do an IEP and do speech therapy for it, because she's 8. So that means your insurance should cover it. Then, with that opening, you go hey can we also test for... and start listing things off, kwim? Sometimes the CTOPP, definitely language, pragmatics, APD screening (SCAN or TAPS, I like the SCAN), etc. 

 

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We did not pay for that psych, thank goodness, insurance did. Paying $$ for private psych eval (or trying to see if they'll pay for an actual neuropsych, some have suggested to me that the right kind of referral from the dr could get it covered, say if ADHD were suspected) is not entirely off the table but I guess I'd need to have a significantly better idea what I'd really do with the information/diagnoses while HSing... especially if a neuropsych eval won't even touch the auditory processing and we're going to need an audiologist or SLP for that anyway? Going by my gut, my main big concerns for her are reading/spelling, and now I guess auditory discrimination? Auditory discrimination makes a lot of things make sense now actually, like the fact that it took her the longest time to learn to  count to 20 (thirteen and fourteen sound almost the same to her!). Thank you for your PM, I'll probably respond to that tomorrow.

 

I'm not super worried about handwriting right now. We didn't emphasize it until this year because I felt we had bigger fish to fry and that the fine motor stuff was likely developmental. She hasn't had all that much practice and her handwriting is messy but legible. If she'd gone to preschool/school where they write all day, her handwriting would likely be low-average for grade level, I think, but she does find it laborious so I'm not sure how hard that would have been on her.

 

So here's my to-do list right now:

Request SLP referral, see about getting CTOPP

Buy and do FiS, followed by Barton 1

Meanwhile do more white-board/paintbrush/whatever handwriting on the easel, as well as fun stuff for fine motor and play dough (I have a book for this), maybe OT? After we finish VT I hope (we expect to finish after 2-4 sessions)

See about audiologist? Maybe SLP would refer to audiologist if they see the need? I see some saying only audiologists can diagnose APD...

Edited by Sarah J.
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You can google for tests for retained reflexes. If you can find an OT who is good at them, yes that would be good. It sounds like she should have an OT eval. See, here's the problem. Right now you're saying things, and basically the more you talk the more you say, that screams more is going on. Your first psych told you more was going on. Probably her issues are glaring enough that you could just take her to the ps and get evals through them and they would be identified. With her IQ, they'd probably go ahead and diagnose the SLDs. If you can't make private evals happen, I would seriously consider doing that. if they totally foul it up, then you go through the dispute process and they ahve to pay for private evals.

 

It just sounds like she could get multiple SLDs labels.

 

I wasn't reading closely enough to know why you're thinking APD. Half of the TAPS is stuff a dyslexic would fail, so I'm not a huge fan. I like the SCAN better. You can get it through an audiologisti, sometimes through an SLP. Around here the state univ has a very well known audiology dept and can run the evals and screenings for a great price. Like $35. Wow. So it's a really easy recommend at that price, obviously.

 

There are some retained reflexes that can cause the APD and other symptoms. She yes, working on them might give her a bump. 

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Just a couple of things to throw out there. I have one child with dyslexia, and one child with NVLD.

 

Auditory discrimination can go along with dyslexia. You would want to have an audiologist do a screening, but keep in mind that CAPD is not accepted as a real diagnosis by everyone, so do your research first to see if the audiologist would screen for it. We were able to get screenings free at our big state university by audiology students (supervised by their licensed teacher, who is the one who went over the results with us).

 

About NVLD and visual spatial issues. There is a difference. NVLD is not really about visual discrimination or visual issues at all. It is a neurological (not vision based) visual spatial disability. We did have DS screened by a COVD for vision issues, just to cover the bases. But if it is truly NVLD, vision therapy will not help or "cure" it.

 

Having a 20 point spread between verbal and nonverbal is an indication of possible NVLD, but there is more to NVLD than that, so that is not enough for a diagnosis. It's possible for someone to have visual and/or motor issues that could create lower scores on those portions of the exam, without NVLD being the reason. It would be an important question for a NP to figure out by doing more extensive testing. It's also good to keep in mind that many of the symptoms of NVLD do not become evident until older --- around fourth or fifth grade. One of the defining characteristics is that the indications become more severe as time goes on, both because there are new skills that they have more trouble mastering than the early skills, and also because they lag in relationship to peers.

 

You would need to check to see what your insurance would cover for a NP exam. Ours would NOT cover screening due to issues related to ADHD or educational issues such as SLD (because the schools can screen for that). They would cover for suspected autism. Our insurance covered most for DS13, because the NP was testing for complex issues including a screening for ASD (he got the NVLD diagnosis instead). But our insurance would NOT cover the NP screening for DD12's dyslexia. They did cover most of it when we had DS12 screened, but he was referred by an ENT within the same hospital system, and I suspect that made a difference, versus us requesting the evaluation ourselves.

 

You just need to check, because all insurance companies do it differently. Even for different kids in the same family.

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Hi Sarah,

 

I homeschooled my kids, am a certified special ed teacher have been doing Barton tutoring for about 2 years now, when I learned about Barton. Since I started tutoring kids in this Orton-Gillingham based program, I have seen nothing but success!   Because a few of my prospective students couldn't pass Part C of the Barton screening, like you, I searched the internet for feedback on Foundations in Sounds. I didn't find a lot, but found enough feedback to decide to try it.  I had a 6th grade boy who needed a program of this type, but I was worried that this program might be too 'young' for him.  He had an official evaluation years ago and I would say he is severely dyslexic. 

 

  I have used it now with the above student (he never complained once about it being too young), as well as 5 others. I highly recommend Foundations in Sounds! This is easy to use, as it uses the same format as the Barton program.  It will lay the foundation for Barton, so that your child will progress probably faster through Level 1 and 2 because of it. 

 

The above student was receiving speech services (he was in a private school, so was not on an IEP for his dyslexia).  He told me he 'sucked' at remembering the order of given directions.  This was his hardest struggle with Part C-remembering 3 given sounds in the correct order.  It took him a little longer than some of my other students to get through FIS.  But, he made it!  In 1 year now, he is in the middle of Level 3, and is no longer receives speech services!  

 

I am not saying this is how it will be for your daughter, but FIS as well as Barton seems to really help those kids who struggle with memory issues, as well as the fine discrimination of sounds such as short e/i, f/th...I am currently working with a 3rd grader with those same 2 issues.  He had completed Barton Level 1 with another tutor and didn't pass.  I now have him and have backed up to using FIS. Just before Christmas, I finally saw some improvement in remembering 3 sounds in order.  

He was struggling with that, so I did supplement with just a few of these activites:  

 

http://www.sightwords.com/phonemic-awareness/connecting-sounds/

 

http://www.sightwords.com/phonemic-awareness/curriculum/

 

I would suggest that your best bet would be to purchase FIS.  The above would be great supplements, but like Barton, it progresses in order.  It will get you to where you want her to be more quickly than trying other things yourself.  It is higher in price, but resale value, like Barton, is good.

 

I am glad to share any further advice if needed! Private PM me if you would like, and I hope this helps!

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My DH, who was in the room for the testing, thinks that a big part of the nonverbal IQ test was an arithmetic worksheet where she had to write all the answers herself. It also had Raven's Progressive Matrices, but he thought it was the arithmetic+writing part that really threw her, plus he said it was toward the end of about a 3 hour session and she seemed very tired--we pretty much always do Math out loud, we'd been using MEP; she is now in Beast Academy 2A and handling it pretty well so far. I would have thought a proper IQ test wouldn't require young students to write answers lest either poor writing instruction or dysgraphia should confound the IQ result, but what do I know? But he was pretty sure it was part of the IQ test and not part of any achievement testing. Clearly I just need to request the medical records and see what actual tests were run. When I read lists of signs of NVLD, though, they just don't really sound like her. I just am not putting a ton of confidence in that psychologist at this point--she told us she did not know what was going on! 

 

I do understand that vision therapy won't help true NVLD, what I was saying was that I think being tested pre-Vision Therapy (when her tracking and eye teaming were pretty bad) may have thrown the NV IQ score somewhat. 

 

I'm reading that auditory interventions for reading difficulty aren't evidence-based. I wonder whether this includes the strategies used in FIS (I mean I know they didn't investigate the specific program, but I wonder if the strategies that were not found to be effective in the studies were similar). I know some say this also about VT for dyslexics, and I wonder if it's the same sort of thing where no it doesn't directly address the dyslexia itself, but some subset of dyslexics have deficits that will be addressed by it.

 

I will see what I can do about a neuropsych eval but I just don't know if it's in the cards right now, especially if it is the sort of thing where we'd likely need more testing in a couple years. FIS and Barton I can swing, and I'm very optimistic that they will help her.

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No, FIS isn’t what they mean by auditory interventions.

 

In auditory interventions kids listen to music or sounds on headphones and this is meant to help them listen better.

 

http://auditoryintegrationtraining.co.uk/auditory-integration-training-ait-for-hearing-autism-adhd-add-dyslexia-and-other-special-needs-2/auditory-integration-training-ait-for-hearing-autism-adhd-add-dyslexia-and-other-special-needs/

 

This is just the first thing that came up on google, for an example.

 

This one is another.

 

https://www.tomatis.com/en

 

And another.

 

http://www.nacd.org/center-for-speech-sound-tsi-tlp-programs/the-listening-program-tlp/

 

If you glance at these you can see what is meant by auditory interventions.

Edited by Lecka
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I've never done, nor have I watched IQ testing, but I don't think your dh is understanding correctly what he saw.

 

FIS would directly remediate the precise deficiencies the Barton screening was testing for. You're convoluting too many things. FIS is very targeted and builds the exact skills she needs to proceed with Barton.

Edited by PeterPan

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On the other hand there is positive research for Lips (from my understanding at least) and FIS is a similar program to it. Or the same general kind of program.

Edited by Lecka
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Didn't you get a written report with the scores? You can really learn a lot from looking at the individual subtests, and you can google each test to see what the child had to do.

 

When I google WISC (standard IQ test), it doesn't show that any written math pages are included. There is an oral math section, but it looks like it is not one of the tests considered when factoring the FSIQ. Just information from Wikipedia; you could do your own searching.

 

So if you have no written report, are you just going by memory of what the psych said after the testing? If I were you, I would not be satisfied with that at all and would request the report. Was this testing recent? Perhaps they are mailing the report, but you haven't received it yet? One of our psychs took two months to get a report to us, I think, so it can take some time.

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Some of the WISC testing does require pencil and paper work. The coding section, for example. So poor handwriting can result in lower scores. One could say that someone with poor handwriting has a disadvantage on that portion of the test. On the other hand, the poor handwriting can be a symptom of the underlying difficulties (which is how I think the psychs view it), so the lower scores are revealing a problem, rather than being an unfair depiction of ability. It's a chicken or egg kind of thing.

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Sorry, I was responding to a question about if FIS is research based and if it is an “auditory intervention†that is considered not helpful.

 

The auditory interventions that aren’t considered helpful are the ones where you listen to special classical music cds with special headphones.

 

But Lips is considered helpful and I think there is positive research for Lips.

 

I don’t think there is any research for FIS but, it makes sense (directly teaching what they intend students to learn vs listening to classical music; specifically meant to teach certain skills instead of a blanket recommendation for ADHD, autism, dyslexia, etc); it’s recommended by Susan Barton, and it uses a similar approach as a program (Lips) that I think is research based.

 

And, there is a tutor here who has used it saying she has seen it work in practice. That actually is really important because there are things for autism that don’t work as well in general use as they did in the research study because they are impossible to implement without having a lot of grad students being observed by a PhD to run the program. So when something can be implemented under normal conditions and have a good result, that will be called “clinical experience†or something.

 

So overall — it seems like a quality program to me.

 

And I think the “auditory programs†are not as popular as they were a couple of years ago, and who knows, I’m sure they help some kids, but I think it’s too bad they are causing confusion about quality programs.

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No, I didn't get a score report and don't think one is in the mail--testing was back in early September and she started VT right around the same time. Testing was done through a hospital-based clinic (... not a good hospital) so I imagine I'll have to make it a medical records request, unless maaaybe they sent it back to her ped, who was the referring doctor.

 

I really appreciate all the good feedback on FIS and intend to order it. I apologize if I caused confusion with the questions about auditory interventions. I feel a lot of words have kind of specialized meanings in this arena that aren't immediately evident to the layperson. I couldn't find much about it online. After we get it and use it I'll post and let you know what I think, as a parent tutor without prior experience in this area!

 

I feel too that I may have muddied the waters by giving too much information about the child and trying to describe where my concerns don't lie at this time. My gut instinct as her mother is that she is a gifted, in many ways typical child who is thriving in many areas (social and emotional, enjoys dancing, ice skating, riding a bike, telling stories, etc) and probably has dyslexia and maybe other LDs/some OT issues--but it is largely in the world of academics that I have concerns for her. 

Edited by Sarah J.
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FIS is pretty new so I think that’s why it’s hard to find information. Once you use it maybe you can give an update :)

 

I hope it goes really well :)

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I am reading the handbook for treatment of CAPD and while they talk about "listening therapy"  like Tomatis or ILS in a small paragraph they do point out it does not have scientific rigor behind it.  They do not recomend it for CAPD . I think it works far more effectively for Sensory issues. I use it but I consider it a very top down therapy and it is not the main therapy we use for my sons CAPD. It took over 100 hours to see the full results and we did not see them in the CAPD area but in the attention and speach area.  ..

 

Edited to add. I do not have enough knowledge of the sensory stuff to even speak to how to treat that. My son had a very specific diagnosis and I pursued the "listening therapy" ILS on my own accord for my own reasons that were unique to what I observed with my son. My SLP specified which music to incorporate in the program and it heavily focused on auditory attention and auditory sensory stuff.  for me it was very affordable because I got the unit 2nd hand and I was in a position where I had the time to pursue it outside of more streamline therapies. 

 

Regarding auditory processing the book talks a fair amount about other bottom up therapies.   Regarding LIPS it states that it is ....."almost exclusively geared toward the phonemic processing level of the auditory processing continuum, although some temporal patterning is included through the phoneme sequencing and speech-sound discrimination skills (page 303)Handbook of CAPD V2.

 

Other therapies they talk about or that I have found have scientific rigor are Earobics, Fast Forword , Accoustic Pioneer, Auditory Gym. Hearbuilder and improving listening and discrimination skills through other noncommercial methods an SLP can implement. 

 

Definitely pursue more testing if you can and do continue to work on fine motor and board work because it is so important and if you catch it now the better. Strengthening the auditory system through LIPS and supporting programs like above can only help.  I have worked with many of those programs through our SLP  and I am using them for CAPD rehabilitation. They are very well designed and mostly affordable. The key is consistency, frequency and duration to see results if they are going to happen. 

 

Testing will tell you where to hammer and where to accommodate. I think every parent on this board wishes they had their child's diagnosis sooner not later. I wish I had my sons when he was 3 and not 9. 

 

 

Edited by exercise_guru

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I think desensitization is better for sensory processing for a lot of kids. We did desensitization for my son and had a good experience.

 

It was also about the only option in my area lol.

Edited by Lecka

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Lecka definitely having a diagnosis helps. Going with the most recommended therapy first is always better. I would not consider listening therapy a 1st line of defense but I loved loved loved incorporating listening therapy with retained reflexes ( another side therapy idea that is less mainstream). I did both of these in addition to main therapy and treatment rather than in place of it. I was able to do it at home and I had a very cooperative son and the cost was minimal but time intensive. 

Edited by exercise_guru

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Honestly, she sounds a lot like my daughter who is 12.  We still don't have solid answers on what her issues are, but she's pretty functional. 

 

A CTOPP would be good for starters.  Neuropsych testing would be ideal. 

 

I'd probably go ahead and start Foundations in Sound and Barton.  But on the other hand, she's second grade, you know she's got visual issues and is doing vision therapy with improvement.  And she's able to read Little House on the Prairie or Boxcar Children.  That's pretty good reading for a second grader with vision issues.  We had the same issues with fatigue and tracking.  We did a lot of oral reading of the Mr. Putter and Tabby level books, because she needed the white space.  Then she jumped and started reading Warriors books to herself.  Thing is, I don't think she read (or even now) reads every word. She's an expert at context clues.  But at 12, her reading comprehension tests at post high school level, and has for years.  Spelling is still down at first grade level, and when she reads out loud, I see issues.  But she makes it work for herself, somehow.  I don't know how it works, but it does.  If I was doing it again, I'd do Barton for the spelling and decoding, but I probably wouldn't hold her back from reading until we finished level 4.  I'd definitely keep supplying her with audio books, reading aloud to her a lot, but I might also have 10 or 15 minutes a day of reading aloud from books at the level she's capable of, feeding her words she doesn't know so she doesn't guess. 

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Thank you, Terabith, I was wondering how strict people were about Barton's "no pleasure reading until level 4" guideline. She was only reading the books I mentioned AFTER doing about 8 sessions of VT with daily homework and good improvement. Before that she could only read Elephant and Piggie and Go Dog Go and the like. Has anything helped your DD with the spelling, that you've been able to identify?

 

White space, fewer words on a page, and fewer words on a line all help. She does read easier books, but the books I described are the hardest things she CAN (mostly) read. For read aloud, she enjoys things like Marguerite Henry and A Wrinkle in Time (I was skeptical that she was too young, but DH wanted to read it to her and she did follow it and like it a lot). I think we need to jump into audio books for sure.

Edited by Sarah J.

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Thank you, Terabith, I was wondering how strict people were about Barton's "no pleasure reading until level 4" guideline. She was only reading the books I mentioned AFTER doing about 8 sessions of VT with daily homework and good improvement. Before that she could only read Elephant and Piggie and Go Dog Go and the like. Has anything helped your DD with the spelling, that you've been able to identify?

 

White space, fewer words on a page, and fewer words on a line all help. She does read easier books, but the books I described are the hardest things she CAN (mostly) read. For read aloud, she enjoys things like Marguerite Henry and A Wrinkle in Time (I was skeptical that she was too young, but DH wanted to read it to her and she did follow it and like it a lot). I think we need to jump into audio books for sure.

Actually the suggestion IIRC, at least when I was using those levels, was no REQUIRED reading, especially out loud reading, before completion of Level 4 but pleasure reading that the CHILD chose to do on their own SILENTLY was fine.  Barton does not want a child that is interested in reading to be discouraged from doing so but most kids have already developed really poor reading practices by the time they start Barton.   Out loud reading/required reading that is not tied to Barton can reinforce those poor reading practices and impede progress in Barton.

 

DD got a book for Christmas when she was half way through Level 3 that would have been impossible for her to read a year and a half earlier but by half way through Level 3 she could read well enough that the book was fine.  It was her choice, she read it silently, and read it as she was able.  Worked well.  It encouraged her, she felt great about it, but it didn't interfere with her lessons.

 

It makes a lot of sense.  Think of it this way:  You were taught how to swim a certain way.  You do it over and over that way and your coach ensures that you are doing it the way they think is best.  It is hard for you and frustrating and it doesn't seem to work that well but this is the way you are supposed to swim.  Then you switch coaches.  You find out that the way you were taught to swim is actually incredibly inefficient and actually impeding your progress.  You now have to basically overwrite existing brain patterns/muscle memory/procedural memory to learn the more efficient way to swim.  If you do it the right way some of the time but the inefficient way at other times it can take a LOT longer to learn the better way to swim.  However, if at least MOST of the time you are doing it the right way, and only doing it the inefficient way upon occasion for fun, you have a much better chance of learning the more efficient way.

 

I definitely encourage audio books, by the way.  What a child is capable of understanding while listening vs. what they can actually decode with understanding while reading themselves can be worlds apart.  Exposure to more advanced stories, vocabulary, grammar, concepts, etc. is important and audio books can be a great way to do that, especially for a struggling reader.

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I was told by Susan Barton they shouldn't be reading on their own at all before the end of level 4.

 

I skimmed the posts but didn't see a response to whoever asked about Barton screening for a 5.5 yo. Barton says a NT 5 yo (or 5.5 yo, can't remember if she specifies the extra .5) should pass it fine. I had the same question when I was giving it to my 5.5 yo...maybe he just needed more time. He couldn't pass part C though we tried a few times, weeks or months apart. We ended up starting Barton when he was 6 and part way through Level 1 it became apparent that he indeed couldn't discriminate between certain sounds so we stopped, did LiPS, and then finished Level 1. So in my experience, fwiw, the screening was accurate for him at 5.5.

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I was told by Susan Barton they shouldn't be reading on their own at all before the end of level 4.

 

I skimmed the posts but didn't see a response to whoever asked about Barton screening for a 5.5 yo. Barton says a NT 5 yo (or 5.5 yo, can't remember if she specifies the extra .5) should pass it fine. I had the same question when I was giving it to my 5.5 yo...maybe he just needed more time. He couldn't pass part C though we tried a few times, weeks or months apart. We ended up starting Barton when he was 6 and part way through Level 1 it became apparent that he indeed couldn't discriminate between certain sounds so we stopped, did LiPS, and then finished Level 1. So in my experience, fwiw, the screening was accurate for him at 5.5.

 

I guess maybe there was a difference in the way we were presenting our questions?  I don't know.  

That is not what she shared with me.  In fact, when I shared with her DD's story about her Christmas gift book DD read when she was halfway through Level 3, Susan Barton was very encouraging.  I seem to recall somewhere on the Barton site or in support materials for tutors it saying the same thing.  No required reading and no out loud reading of anything but Barton stuff until after Level 4 but if a child picked up a book to read on their own for fun they should not be prevented from doing so.  However, if they were getting frustrated, angry, demoralized then yes stop them from trying to read on their own until they were further into the program.

 

 

I don't know why the difference in response. Maybe because DD had already passed all of Level 1 and 2 and half of Level 3 when I finally asked?

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Speaking out of my specialty here because my son is a strong reader but most kids with CAPD need phonological awareness. I have learned a lot about those programs as I have been working with my son. 

 

Before I learned another reading tutoring program I would try a self guided computer program to supplement Barton. Here is are the main elements of hearbuilder: Auditory Memory, Phonological Awareness, Following Directions and Sequencing.  The subsections are very good interactive games. It definitely works out the auditory processing centers. 

 

I think it is available for a minimal cost. I know that parents here have used the free trial. If you tried this you might find out where your child really struggles so you know where to nail down the boards. We use hearbuilder through our SLP. The research is reasonable and it is highly recommended. I have reviews Earobics.  It  covers more auditory discrimination. Because my son has difficulty discriminating certain sounds at specific frequencies we moved over to Fast Forword.  It hits auditory discrimination ( individual most common phoneme patterns) and pattern perception at the deepest and most intense level so if the board is squeaking there it might be worth the investment. Sometimes when the auditory system is nailed down and the student is hearing&Processing the discrete sounds then the reading takes off. It takes 30 minutes a day for quite awhile on most of these programs but if it strengthens the weak area it will make teaching the rest so much easier. Plus its self guided so much easier to support and encourage when they get stuck instead of doing all the prep work and teaching. It might be worth checking out then after a month or 8 weeks if it isn't successful in filling in the weak spots go ahead with LIPS or FOS which requires more intense coaching and teacher investment of time and prep. Also it allowed my son a break from one on one therapy and teaching. He liked interacting with the software and listening for targets more than listening to a teacher or coach. Then when I was teaching he wasn't tired of working with me and gave me much more effort in the other subjects we were working on. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by exercise_guru

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OneStepAtATime, I do not know...maybe the recommendation has changed over time? Or perhaps it depends on how much the child would read independently...I can see encouraging one who rarely or never picks up a book on their own, whereas one who reads a lot (as was the case with the child I was asking about) would interfere with the program. But I am on a HS'ing with Barton FB group and there are several certified Barton tutors there and I have seen a number of them mention that there's not supposed to be any independent reading til after level 4 (or the middle of Level 4 some say). I guess I would recommend that someone ask Susan Barton directly what her recommendation for their particular child is.

 

Homeschooling with Barton is a FB group that welcomes newbie questions, whoever was asking about that.

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