Re-taking first year language class? WWYD?

[Sneezyone]

My oldest is taking French 1 this year. It's a high school class, mixed-age, so 7th grade through 11th graders are all together. She has an A for the semester BUT that's largely due to homework, participation, and cultural units/projects. Her test scores are hovering in the 77-83 range and she's not achieving grammar/vocabulary/conversational mastery. I don't want her to move on to French II without being solid on French I BUT keeping the A for her HS transcript is appealing (it isn't used for GPA purposes), as is finishing her language studies earlier in HS and having more elective space. Most middle schools in the areas we're moving to don't offer French II for 8th graders either.

 

DD will be home with me for the first semester next year and, as I see it, we have two options:

1. Review/drill weaker areas during the summer/fall so she can move up to French II in the spring of 8th grade. The high schools near our final destination compress year-long classes into a single semester but it's not clear if they will transport her to the nearest HS for this class.
2. Re-do the class from scratch and enroll her in French 1 at the new middle school for spring of 8th grade. This carries the risk of a lower grade and losing some of the advantage of starting early. It may feel a little demoralizing to DD as well.

I'm wondering if others have BTDT. WWYD or WDYD and how did things turn out?

 

NOTE: this is my super social child and homeschooling FT, regardless of the academic advantages, is not an option.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Sneezyone

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

- Are you sure she is really missing stuff from French 1?  A solid summer review would probably have her ready for French 2 rather than spending a whole year re-doing.  

- Would she have to repeat French 1 with the same teacher?  It may be an ineffective teacher or method, so pointless to repeat.  

 

Her test score are in the low B range, which should be fine for  moving on.  French 1 vocab will be constantly reviewed and re-used in French 2, so is it really worth losing a year to review?  

[Sneezyone]

- Are you sure she is really missing stuff from French 1?  A solid summer review would probably have her ready for French 2 rather than spending a whole year re-doing.  

- Would she have to repeat French 1 with the same teacher?  It may be an ineffective teacher or method, so pointless to repeat.  

 

Her test score are in the low B range, which should be fine for  moving on.  French 1 vocab will be constantly reviewed and re-used in French 2, so is it really worth losing a year to review?  

 

Good questions. I feel like what she's really missing is drill. She knows things but isn't confident/secure in that knowledge if that makes sense?

 

She would repeat/review with a new teacher in either case because we're moving...twice. Ugh.

 

It's been so long since I took those classes and I haven't looked at a second year book to see how much review there is. The summer/fall review may be best. I do hate the idea of her redoing a whole year. We were forced into that last year with math and it was a waste of time.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Sneezyone

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Good questions. I feel like what she's really missing is drill. She knows things but isn't confident/secure in that knowledge if that makes sense?

 

She would repeat/review with a new teacher in either case because we're moving...twice. Ugh.

 

It's been so long since I took those classes and I haven't looked at a second year book to see how much review there is. The summer/fall review may be best. I do hate the idea of her redoing a whole year. We were forced into that last year with math and it was a waste of time.

 

I would suggest she use something like Duolingo over the summer to keep things fresh, in addition to some flashcard work.  

 

By review, I mean:  she'll still need to know how to conjugate -er verbs in French 2, so they will be building on.  The vocab from French 1 isn't reviewed per se, but it will be used in every text in addition to new.  

 

How does she feel about it?  Personally, I would find a grading system to be really bizarre where an A or B or even high C student is unable to continue into the next level.  All entering French 2 students are probably equally shaky.  Language learning can be incredibly frustrating if the student is held at a low level for too long, it leads to burn-out.  The faster a person is up to speed with at least some basic conversation skills, the faster the learning becomes fun and engaging.  

 

Good luck in your decision!

[Sneezyone]

I would suggest she use something like Duolingo over the summer to keep things fresh, in addition to some flashcard work.

 

By review, I mean: she'll still need to know how to conjugate -er verbs in French 2, so they will be building on. The vocab from French 1 isn't reviewed per se, but it will be used in every text in addition to new.

 

How does she feel about it? Personally, I would find a grading system to be really bizarre where an A or B or even high C student is unable to continue into the next level. All entering French 2 students are probably equally shaky. Language learning can be incredibly frustrating if the student is held at a low level for too long, it leads to burn-out. The faster a person is up to speed with at least some basic conversation skills, the faster the learning becomes fun and engaging.

 

Good luck in your decision!

I'll set her up with duolingo and work on flashcard reviews, etre, avoir and -er conjugations. I guess I've been underestimating the discouraging part of repeating because DD doesn't have a strong preference one way or the other. I was stuck thinking of French in terms of math where I expect 80-90% correct or we go over it again. This is helpful, thanks! Edited January 4, 2018 by Sneezyone

[EmilyGF]

How about an approach to vocabulary review like fluent forever? That could be done easily over the summer and lay a foundation for success with the language.

[Sneezyone]

How about an approach to vocabulary review like fluent forever? That could be done easily over the summer and lay a foundation for success with the language.

Never heard of it but I’ll go look it up, thanks!

[MinivanMom]

Is it an advantage to be a year ahead in French if she is struggling to master French? I've seen a lot of kids who took Spanish I in 8th grade and got an A or B through diligence without fully mastering the material. All of them struggled even more in Spanish II before crashing in Spanish III, because hard work and completing all the extra-credit assignments can only take you so far if you have a shaky foundation. I see the appeal of clearing out the schedule for other classes, but not at the expense of language mastery or your gpa. If you aren't certain she can earn an A in French I at the middle school, then what grade are you expecting her to earn in French II at the high school (where - if I'm understanding this correctly - she would be the only 8th grader in a class of kids who are 9th or older)? What's the point of keeping the A in French I if she gets a C or worse in French II?

 

If the plan is for her to transition to public school, then I think you should have her repeat French I. I wouldn't push a kid into French II (especially if you have to request busing) unless she was rock-solid in French and I was absolutely certain she could earn an A in a semester-long class full of older high schoolers. I would present it as, "Each French class covers slightly different concepts, so you'll be starting in French I to be sure you don't miss anything." Taking French I in 8th grade is not behind. Even in crazy academic school districts like ours, taking French I in 8th grade is not behind. Completing French I or Spanish I in 7th grade is tippy-top for the language-talented kids who are trying to fit in 2 or more languages. 

 

 

[MinivanMom]

Also, are you sure they'll enroll her based on the previous year's grade? Our district requires all new students to take a French placement test. If you don't place into French II, tough luck. I had a friend whose son had completed French I and French II with A's in their previous district (wealthy public school in the DC suburbs), but our district required him take the French placement test. He just missed placing into French III so he had to retake French II despite having taken the course with an A at an accredited public school. I would double check those placement policies.

[RootAnn]

I wonder if they have French 1 split over two years (7th & 8th). If so, a good option might be to put her in the second year of French 1, so she'd have some repeat of material without starting over completely. Those of us in my public middle school had a better foundation of French through covering the French 1 book over two years than the kids who did it in only one. (Also, we had a drill sergeant of a teacher for those first two years vs. a flitty light-weight that the high school kids had for French 1. So, that was part of it, too.)

[MerryAtHope]

Honestly, I wouldn't hesitate to let her move on. Do something for review over the summer, but I wouldn't stop the motivation and the forward momentum, especially if she can continue on in a situation she enjoys and if she enjoys her classmates etc... Let her get as far as she can now. 

[Sneezyone]

NM, I misunderstood. Lol.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

Also, are you sure they'll enroll her based on the previous year's grade? Our district requires all new students to take a French placement test. If you don't place into French II, tough luck. I had a friend whose son had completed French I and French II with A's in their previous district (wealthy public school in the DC suburbs), but our district required him take the French placement test. He just missed placing into French III so he had to retake French II despite having taken the course with an A at an accredited public school. I would double check those placement policies.

This is a good question. I’m not sure if a placement test is required in that area but I doubt it. DD is covered by the interstate compact for military kids and I believe her prior courses would have to be honored for initial placement.

[Sneezyone]

I wonder if they have French 1 split over two years (7th & 8th). If so, a good option might be to put her in the second year of French 1, so she'd have some repeat of material without starting over completely. Those of us in my public middle school had a better foundation of French through covering the French 1 book over two years than the kids who did it in only one. (Also, we had a drill sergeant of a teacher for those first two years vs. a flitty light-weight that the high school kids had for French 1. So, that was part of it, too.)

This is how most middle schools in the area we’re moving to do it so if she repeated, she’d be going into the second semester of the second year of MS French (after completing a full year of the HS version).

 

She has a native speaking teacher now and her study section teacher is French as well so she has plenty of support. Still, you’re right that the mixed age/ability class means it is both lighter than what I remember from my own French 1 class (as far as drill/practice) and faster-paced. The concepts don’t have as much time to sink in. That’s why I’m leaning toward the summer/fall review. It’s not as if she’s learned nothing, it’s just not at the level I’d prefer.

[Sneezyone]

Is it an advantage to be a year ahead in French if she is struggling to master French? I've seen a lot of kids who took Spanish I in 8th grade and got an A or B through diligence without fully mastering the material. All of them struggled even more in Spanish II before crashing in Spanish III, because hard work and completing all the extra-credit assignments can only take you so far if you have a shaky foundation. I see the appeal of clearing out the schedule for other classes, but not at the expense of language mastery or your gpa. If you aren't certain she can earn an A in French I at the middle school, then what grade are you expecting her to earn in French II at the high school (where - if I'm understanding this correctly - she would be the only 8th grader in a class of kids who are 9th or older)? What's the point of keeping the A in French I if she gets a C or worse in French II?

 

If the plan is for her to transition to public school, then I think you should have her repeat French I. I wouldn't push a kid into French II (especially if you have to request busing) unless she was rock-solid in French and I was absolutely certain she could earn an A in a semester-long class full of older high schoolers. I would present it as, "Each French class covers slightly different concepts, so you'll be starting in French I to be sure you don't miss anything." Taking French I in 8th grade is not behind. Even in crazy academic school districts like ours, taking French I in 8th grade is not behind. Completing French I or Spanish I in 7th grade is tippy-top for the language-talented kids who are trying to fit in 2 or more languages.

I had to re-read this to make sure I understood what you were saying and I feel so stupid. Ugh, long night. I guess I think anytime you retake a class with a new teacher or different weighting strategies there’s no guarantee you’ll get the same or even a better grade. I think she’d know more, yes, but that doesn’t always translate into grades.

 

Last summer, we shored up areas where Singapore and Common Core did not match up (and covered material her class never got to, ugh) and it worked really well. That approach *could* work for French too, especially since we have more time than just the summer. She won’t return to B&M school until the end of the calendar year.

 

FTR, DD isn’t a huge fan of languages (English or French, lol). Her primary motivation isn’t so much being ahead but getting it over with so she can take classes in areas she really does like. We agreed that if she finished French II by 9th grade w/satisfactory grades we would look into a semester/year abroad for 10th grade so we’re not in that much of a hurry. My thought was if she bombed it this year we had a retake year to spare. That’s still the case. The equivalent of French III is probably where she’ll draw the line/ top out and then have at least two years to focus on her faves. O’course, the best laid plans...

Edited January 5, 2018 by Sneezyone

[RootAnn]

Well, if you want to add a conversation aspect to the review, whatever you decide, we like italki.com. (Let me know if you want a referral link and I'll PM you one. If you use it, you get $10 (free!) to start with and we get $10.) You can take one or two trial lessons for reduced prices to try to decide on someone who is a good fit. With the $10 referral, you should be able to get at least one trial lesson free. You can use different people each time, but once you find someone she likes, we find it is best to stick with them. (We have 2-3 favorites we bounce between, but we currently use it for Spanish. We'll be trying German this summer and French next school year.)

[Kuovonne]

For what it’s worth, my DD took Spanish 1 in public school as an 8th grader. Even though she got an A as an 8th grader, she is currently retaking Spanish 1 in private high school as a 9th grader. It was absolutely the right thing to do for her. The 8th grade Spanish 1 class was very poorly done. Her current Spanish 1 class is much harder, and she is only getting a B, but she feels much more confident with the language.

[rjand6more]

Honestly, I would retake first year.  My dd had a similar thing happen.  She got an A in German 1 in 8th.  I moved her to a different teacher(who used a different test book--THIS was the main issue for her) and she struggled in German 2.  We bumped her back and she has absolutely excelled.  She's in German 2 now.  All this happened last year.

 

Changing teachers and books REALLY can matter as the material can vary and the order taught can really matter too.

[Sneezyone]

Honestly, I would retake first year. My dd had a similar thing happen. She got an A in German 1 in 8th. I moved her to a different teacher(who used a different test book--THIS was the main issue for her) and she struggled in German 2. We bumped her back and she has absolutely excelled. She's in German 2 now. All this happened last year.

 

Changing teachers and books REALLY can matter as the material can vary and the order taught can really matter too.

The textbook does make a big difference. Her school uses d’Accord and I don’t like it at all. The online component gives them multiple tries, etc. I started her last summer with Bien Dit! It’s much more straightforward.

[Sneezyone]

Well, if you want to add a conversation aspect to the review, whatever you decide, we like italki.com. (Let me know if you want a referral link and I'll PM you one. If you use it, you get $10 (free!) to start with and we get $10.) You can take one or two trial lessons for reduced prices to try to decide on someone who is a good fit. With the $10 referral, you should be able to get at least one trial lesson free. You can use different people each time, but once you find someone she likes, we find it is best to stick with them. (We have 2-3 favorites we bounce between, but we currently use it for Spanish. We'll be trying German this summer and French next school year.)

Thanks, this would be great. It’s nice to hear other accents. We were in Mauritius for a few days last month and I could practically see her ears opening. Lol.

[PeterPan]

I'm having a hard time following the logic here and figuring out what you're asking. If you're moving and she's going to take it at a different school, then she'll be subject to their policy. Many colleges won't be interested in 7th grade courses on transcripts, so that part doesn't matter either. 

 

The real question is why she's not doing well. My dd has ADHD and the ADHD made her struggle. Like your dd, she could do really well on projects, etc., but memorizing the vocab and doing all the processing for the language was a bear. We got through it, but I'm suggesting that figuring out *why* she's not doing well will be more helpful than deciding ahead of time what class she might go to in a new district. Personally, I wouldn't even review over the summer. Sounds like a total drag in an area she's not clicking in anyway. I changed schools mid-9th grade and was MOTIVATED to catch up in French (the old school had no textbooks, the new was very advanced) so I did. I flopped at 1st year russian as a junior and was MOTIVATED to study over the summer and went on to do it as a minor and become fluent.

 

MOTIVATION should decide if she wanted to go above and beyond and work on it over the summer. Personally, I see no point. She's immature and clearly missing study strategies. I would work on her skill holes and let her start over. As the others said, languages quickly pile up, meaning it's going to get much worse.

 

If you research ADHD study techniques for languages, they're going to tell you to use multiple modalities. So she needs to WRITE the language task and then READ IT ALOUD and then drill it VISUALLY with Quizlet. Layers, multi-sensory. That's what I'm saying, that she hasn't learned the fundamental lesson yet, which is learning how to learn and learning how her brain works and how SHE connects with information. Some people go even farther, making visual dictionaries of the vocabulary, etc. She's going to have to learn how she can learn. Once she learns that, she'll be a better student in EVERYTHING.

Edited January 5, 2018 by PeterPan

[fourisenough]

I didn’t read all the responses, but have some BTDT advice: don’t hesitate to have her repeat a year. My DD17 did Spanish I in 7th at home, then took Spanish II in 8th at the public middle school (solid A for both classes). The recommendation was to continue with Spanish III in 9th at the public high school. Knowing that Spanish II was NOT a good, rigorous class, I insisted she repeat Spanish II in 9th. She was ultimately so much stronger in the language and had no problem progressing through Spanish III & IV in 10th/11th grades. Her friends who moved into Spanish III in 9th ALL crashed and burned (C’s or worse) and didn’t continue with the language.

[Sneezyone]

I'm having a hard time following the logic here and figuring out what you're asking. If you're moving and she's going to take it at a different school, then she'll be subject to their policy. Many colleges won't be interested in 7th grade courses on transcripts, so that part doesn't matter either. 

 

The real question is why she's not doing well. My dd has ADHD and the ADHD made her struggle. Like your dd, she could do really well on projects, etc., but memorizing the vocab and doing all the processing for the language was a bear. We got through it, but I'm suggesting that figuring out *why* she's not doing well will be more helpful than deciding ahead of time what class she might go to in a new district. Personally, I wouldn't even review over the summer. Sounds like a total drag in an area she's not clicking in anyway. I changed schools mid-9th grade and was MOTIVATED to catch up in French (the old school had no textbooks, the new was very advanced) so I did. I flopped at 1st year russian as a junior and was MOTIVATED to study over the summer and went on to do it as a minor and become fluent.

 

MOTIVATION should decide if she wanted to go above and beyond and work on it over the summer. Personally, I see no point. She's immature and clearly missing study strategies. I would work on her skill holes and let her start over. As the others said, languages quickly pile up, meaning it's going to get much worse.

 

If you research ADHD study techniques for languages, they're going to tell you to use multiple modalities. So she needs to WRITE the language task and then READ IT ALOUD and then drill it VISUALLY with Quizlet. Layers, multi-sensory. That's what I'm saying, that she hasn't learned the fundamental lesson yet, which is learning how to learn and learning how her brain works and how SHE connects with information. Some people go even farther, making visual dictionaries of the vocabulary, etc. She's going to have to learn how she can learn. Once she learns that, she'll be a better student in EVERYTHING.

 

DD started French with me last summer and she was homeschooled 3-5th so I have a good sense of where/why she struggles and it's not ADHD; it's processing speed. She simply needs more time to take in new terminology, not at all unusual for a middle schooler. Both the school she attends now and the districts we're moving to allow students to use high school classes taken before high school to meet graduation requirements. They do not count in the HS GPA but they do appear on the HS transcript. Both French 1 and Algebra 1 classes fall into this category.

 

If a traditional, two-year middle school language program were available, we'd have leapt at that option but it wasn't. Our choices were to take the HS class this school offers and repeat/review next year if necessary or not take a language at all until 9th grade. That wasn't something we were willing to do precisely because she needs more time to cement vocab.

 

Summer study isn't optional for our family whether it's review of something they didn't completely grasp during the school year or new, extension material for the upcoming year. Everyone does something to improve. DD is probably the one who appreciates this time the most because she knows it gives her a head start and confidence boost going into the new year. It's not torture and they get PLENTY of free time.

 

Study skills are actually something DH and I have talked about for her this summer. She has a 'study skills class' now but aside from the extra time they get to do work, I haven't been impressed with the actual study skills they teach. Do schools even teach kids how to use a textbook anymore? How to study? That's something we plan to tackle regardless of what subject(s) she focuses on for her summer work.

 

By no means am I saying that DD is ready or will be ready to move on to the next class. I'm debating the merits of working on her *specific areas of weakness* over several months (June-December) vs. re-doing a year of *general survey* with another PS teacher. Deeper/more targeted vs. broader/less targeted.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

I didn’t read all the responses, but have some BTDT advice: don’t hesitate to have her repeat a year. My DD17 did Spanish I in 7th at home, then took Spanish II in 8th at the public middle school (solid A for both classes). The recommendation was to continue with Spanish III in 9th at the public high school. Knowing that Spanish II was NOT a good, rigorous class, I insisted she repeat Spanish II in 9th. She was ultimately so much stronger in the language and had no problem progressing through Spanish III & IV in 10th/11th grades. Her friends who moved into Spanish III in 9th ALL crashed and burned (C’s or worse) and didn’t continue with the language.

 

Oh, I agree. I'm 100% committed to doing something in the way of repetition/review.

[MerryAtHope]

DD started French with me last summer and she was homeschooled 3-5th so I have a good sense of where/why she struggles and it's not ADHD; it's processing speed. She simply needs more time to take in new terminology, not at all unusual for a middle schooler. Both the school she attends now and the districts we're moving to allow students to use high school classes taken before high school to meet graduation requirements. They do not count in the HS GPA but they do appear on the HS transcript. Both French 1 and Algebra 1 classes fall into this category.

 

If a traditional, two-year middle school language program were available, we'd have leapt at that option but it wasn't. Our choices were to take the HS class this school offers and repeat/review next year if necessary or not take a language at all until 9th grade. That wasn't something we were willing to do precisely because she needs more time to cement vocab.

 

In that case, since you know she needs more time to cement vocab etc... I think your best bet is to not count early language study for high school credit at all--just let it be that "leg up" before she takes courses in high school that DO count. 

[kiwik]

I don't see that 77 to 83% is struggling but I guess that is the differences in NZ versus US grading again. I would let her discuss it with the teacher at the new school and decide.

[Sneezyone]

In that case, since you know she needs more time to cement vocab etc... I think your best bet is to not count early language study for high school credit at all--just let it be that "leg up" before she takes courses in high school that DO count. 

 

She needs *some* more time, not two years worth. LOL. Even if she repeats, the re-taken class will still count for HS credit b/c it's a high school level class.

[Sneezyone]

I don't see that 77 to 83% is struggling but I guess that is the differences in NZ versus US grading again. I would let her discuss it with the teacher at the new school and decide.

 

I wouldn't call it struggling but it doesn't represent mastery either. It sounds like opinions here on what kind/how much review are just as split as I am.

 

I do take seriously the need to keep her motivated and feeling like she's progressing. It was a big deal for her to take this class in 7th grade and she's holding her own quite well with the big kids. That deserves some credit/recognition.

 

I also know that we have 6-9 months AFTER we leave here to bring her vocab/grammar mastery up to where I'd like it to be without re-taking the class completely. That's probably what we'll do. After that, I'll defer to the school re:where to place her next.

[chiguirre]

I wouldn't call it struggling but it doesn't represent mastery either. It sounds like opinions here on what kind/how much review are just as split as I am.

 

I do take seriously the need to keep her motivated and feeling like she's progressing. It was a big deal for her to take this class in 7th grade and she's holding her own quite well with the big kids. That deserves some credit/recognition.

 

I also know that we have 6-9 months AFTER we leave here to bring her vocab/grammar mastery up to where I'd like it to be without re-taking the class completely. That's probably what we'll do. After that, I'll defer to the school re:where to place her next.

This is a good plan. You have a while to go back to Bien Dit! and do all the exercises to cement the grammar and vocabulary. A second pass through the grammar will help things to click and extra time with vocabulary will mean she's really got it. I suspect the problem isn't your dd, it's trying to do a class with such a wide array of students and not meeting anyone's needs. You can easily fix that on your own once the class is over and have her ready for the other MS's class. If you can find out what book they use, I'd use that instead of Bien Dit! but there's probably not that much variation in what grammar points are covered.