Your experiences being vegetarian

[eternalsummer]

I don't have a problem with hosts serving only dishes that fit their way of eating. What I have a problem with is them imposing it on group potlucks or similar events. And not just reasonable requests like avoiding meat/poultry, eggs, and dairy as ingredients but dictating that people cannot use non-animal products that MIGHT have been processed using a small amount of an animal product. That crosses the line from reasonable ethical concerns to paranoia about "contamination".

 

As far as this goes, separate of the issue of policing others' moral decisions, the idea is this (imo): if you're opposed to consuming animal products, or consuming animal products that are produced by virtue of the suffering of the animal, it makes sense to me for you to be opposed to using one gram of the animal product or one kilogram.  How would it make much difference how much meat or milk is in the dish if it is there?

 

It's like saying, well, I understand the ethical concern of people who think abortion is wrong, but jeez, they cross the line into paranoia if they think chemical abortion at 7 weeks is wrong, or if they want to rule out the pill on anti-abortion grounds too, or whatever.  These people might legitimately have a mental disorder!  They are so concerned about a minute possibility of moral wrong.

 

 

Now, telling other people that what they are doing is wrong is one thing - we all pretty much do that all the time, although it is impolite in some situations and we refrain.  (for example, you might well say on a topic on this chat board that abortion should be a last resort, or maybe even that abortion is immoral, but you're probably not going to say that to the lady in front of you at the grocery store checkout).  Imposing your moral views on other people is a more complicated process-  generally you're working towards social change in hopes that as more people come to agree with you the bad thing will become unacceptable and eventually even illegal.

Edited December 21, 2017 by eternalsummer

[eternalsummer]

Also, you can disagree with vegans on the merits of the case, just as you can disagree with pro-lifers on the merits of the case, without claiming that their belief makes them insane.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I think you may be confused. I was specifically responding to the comment about the horrendous conditions the animals are raised in. I was not debating about killing animals at all, it was specifically in response to comment above about the ethics of the conditions the animals are raised in.

Totally not confused. Ethical vegans think that killing animals makes for bad conditions for the animals.

[OrganicJen]

Totally not confused. Ethical vegans think that killing animals makes for bad conditions for the animals.

But that has nothing to do with my post or the comment I was responding to. I'm not sure what you are taking issue with.

[eternalsummer]

I’m saying if they asked their son (my DD’s boyfriend) to make the wedding 100% vegan. Or, suppose they were the parents of the bride and were actually paying for all or part of it and wanted it therefore to be 100% vegan. Of ciurse, if it were their own wedding, they can have whatever food they desire.

 

Your hypothetical situation of slave owner vs. non slave owner is a good comparison and not one I feel I can easily answer. I see both sides of why this would be difficult.

 

I do not think alcohol consumption is vastly different (at least from my parents’ perspective) because they do not view consuming alcohol as just one person’s choice. They view it more as a scourge on society. So if Uncle Bob is at the wedding getting lit, they would think they were complicit in whatever bad outcome might come as a result - he drives drunk, he is abusive when he drinks, his children have a crappy model of a man. It’s not just that they think it is unholy to do to one’s own body - although they think that, too.

 

I have had arguments with DH about our parties because I do not want to generate more plastic trash than necessary, but he does not care about this issue. I have had a big water dispenser instead of water bottles because plastic water bottles are so excessively wasteful, but he thinks it is rude to not give people water bottles because it is standard and normal and people want “pure†water that they feel ownership of. I have sometimes done it “myâ€way and sometimes done it “hisâ€way. The party I am about to host tomorrow will have water bottles and I sighed as I loaded them on the cart. I provide real plates (not disposables), at least until I exhaust my fairly extensive collection, but utensils will have to be plastic simply because I don’t own 50sets of durable utensils. But I’m happy when people don’t throw them in the trash, but put them in the sink instead.

 

 

Oh, I see, I hadn't thought that about the alcohol.  Yes, in that case, if that were my belief, I can see not wanting to pay for a wedding where alcohol was served.  How could you promote (via buying it for others) something you yourself think is bad for both them and for other people?

 

I am on your side about the plastic water bottles (and I am not someone who cares that much about trash/waste).  People don't need their own plastic water bottle.  They might want one, but they also probably want a free Ferrari, or at least a limo ride to the event.  Water in cups is perfectly normal and acceptable - they are not going to get sick from it and this way they also are not going to create more waste than necessary (on your dime!).

 

Plus, individual bottles of water are monetarily insanely wasteful.

[eternalsummer]

At any rate, it ends up being the same thing in practical terms - as I said, I've never met another meat eater who doesn't occasionally eat or use things made via the suffering of animals, not through death but through inhumane living conditions.  Not one, nowhere, never, nada.  I am the only one I have ever met (besides DH).

 

So I lump all meat eaters together because in my experience, they display varying levels of the same tendency - to put personal preference (for cost, or taste, or convenience, or whatever) above the suffering of the animals they're eating.  Yes, it is better to eat grass-fed beef when you can - but if you get fries at McDonald's once a month, I fail to see the moral purity, honestly.

[OrganicJen]

At any rate, it ends up being the same thing in practical terms - as I said, I've never met another meat eater who doesn't occasionally eat or use things made via the suffering of animals, not through death but through inhumane living conditions. Not one, nowhere, never, nada. I am the only one I have ever met (besides DH).

 

So I lump all meat eaters together because in my experience, they display varying levels of the same tendency - to put personal preference (for cost, or taste, or convenience, or whatever) above the suffering of the animals they're eating. Yes, it is better to eat grass-fed beef when you can - but if you get fries at McDonald's once a month, I fail to see the moral purity, honestly.

I am really surprised about you not meeting people like us who don't eat factory farmed animal products. Among my friends it's extremely common. We get our beef, elk, chicken, pork, eggs, milk, butter, and cheese from local family farms. Since most of what we eat we grow ourselves in greenhouses, we don't eat a ton of meat and we've so far never run out of pasture raised and had any reason to buy factory farmed meat at all. I can't imagine why we would need to. Any bread products I make with freshly milled flour I make from my electric grain mill so I know the ingredients in my baked goods. If I eat out I usually just get a salad and I eat out very rarely. I certainly wouldn't consider anything at a fast food restaurant to be actual food so I don't eat french fries beyond the ones I make at home. I guess from my perspective it's easy not to eat factory farmed animals so I find it interesting that you don't know other people like us.

[solascriptura]

 

I won't buy sugar with bone char but if you made me an otherwise vegan cookie, I wouldn't ask about your sugar and I'll happily eat it.

 

The thing is, it's a deeply ethical choice for many of us. Once you've immersed yourself in the animal agriculture end of things, once you've seen the horrific conditions, and done you share of protesting and rescuing animals, you can't turn that reel off.

 

For many of us it is just like going to a house where people use slaves. You don't just say "oh well, I won't own slaves but you do you you..."

I was an ethical vegetarian for several years, but I take offense at your example. A person is not the same as an animal. Please do not equate slaves with animals.

[eternalsummer]

I meet a fair number of people who eat largely humanely raised animal products, but have never met anyone who is serious about it. That's pretty cool!  I don't live in (or particularly near) the country and never have, so that might be part of it.  To go to a local family farm I'd have to drive down the mountain about an hour, and at any rate I called them to ask if they hatch their own layers and meat chickens or get the hatchlings from pullet factories and the conversation did not go well, hah.

[OrganicJen]

I meet a fair number of people who eat largely humanely raised animal products, but have never met anyone who is serious about it. That's pretty cool! I don't live in (or particularly near) the country and never have, so that might be part of it. To go to a local family farm I'd have to drive down the mountain about an hour, and at any rate I called them to ask if they hatch their own layers and meat chickens or get the hatchlings from pullet factories and the conversation did not go well, hah.

Wow I didn't realize it was so hard to find in some areas. All the family farms around us let people come tour any time to see just how the animals are raised. The chickens are definitely like pets and they breed their own and let them lay whenever and wherever they want. It can be like an Easter egg hunt on their farms.

[wintermom]

The claim that not eating meat is "always the more ethical choice" is what I disagree with.  I've seen the film footage of animals in horrible conditions, and I've seen film footage of humans on the brink of starvation, eating rats, etc. just to stay alive. Or they raise a goat in their yard, their family enjoys the milk, and both animal and humans stay alive.

 

It's so easy to sit in a comfy house in North America and tell the world they are all unethical if they eat meat. What is the point, though? Who feels better? 

[eternalsummer]

I don't see eating all meat as unethical, so I may not be a good person to answer this question, but I don't think you'll find too many vegans who think starving is preferable to eating meat (morally speaking).  That doesn't really have anything to do with any of us, though - none of us would starve if we didn't eat meat.

[mamaraby]

I think it's more a question of respecting and understand others; their values, ethics and reality. There are many, many factors involved in living and surviving as humans in the world today, just as there was in the world centuries ago. Most human cultures survived and thrived on meat consumption and continue to do so. For many cultures the importance of animals was equal to that of humans. To judge people with a broad stroke as unethical because their values and situations are different, is not only unfair but thoughtless and disrespectful.

But ethics are personal, yes? And so you can assert that eating meat, etc is perfectly ethical and yet I can say that I find those choices unethical. Largely I expect because our ethical considerations and metrics are vastly different. It isn’t dismissive, it’s a difference in ethics. I think your example is over simplified and at best a correlation, not a causation. We can agree to disagree here as I’m not interested in going ten rounds of debate over it. And even if we were to do so and agree that there was some people group somewhere in the world that required meat consumption, that still wouldn’t negate hornblower’s ability to say that she does not believe that meat consumption is ethical.

 

What I find annoying are that there are certain posters who will always pop up and make the same assertions. For instance, Crimson Wife will always pop up and talk about the incredible burden non-vegans face in potluck situations and beat the bone char dead horse because she knows this one vegan who is now the poster child for all vegans, everywhere. And then they’ll trot out the former vegans and orthorexia. And how dare vegans ever expect the same consideration when it comes to family gatherings or restaurant selection in groups. I seriously need a BINGO card for these discussions, because I can guarantee I would get BINGO every time. I can also guarantee you the same handful of posters will come out of the woodwork at the slightest mention of vegans or vegetarians like it’s Festivus and the thread means its time for the airing of grievances.

 

For me, eating meat and animal products is not an ethical choice. I became vegan for health, I stayed for the ethics. I have had to skip going out to eat with family twice in that time period because in both cases my options for something to eat were overpriced salad (because restaurants load even the most basic salads with meat and dairy, but still charge the same price if they leave those things off) and some version of potatoes. I have also trucked a whole meal to a family gathering including the dish I was told to bring to share in order to make sure I had something to eat because not a single one of the other dishes that other people brought were something I could eat. I have eaten before or after going to an event. I have put up with all kinds of people who think they’re nutrition experts and take any expression of me being vegan as a personal judgment against them and they will tell me all the reasons why they personally think I’m ridiculous and wrong. It doesn’t matter how carefully I express things nor how plain I make it that my choices and my ethics are my own. It doesn’t even matter if I’m answering a question they themselves asked! Same result. For every rude vegan out there who is raised up as the reason why all vegans are wrong, I can counter with a rude omnivore. I’ve got plenty.

 

A well-planned diet is important for all human beings in order to be healthy. Vegetarians and vegans are no different. Personally, I wouldn’t go without beans/legumes but if one is vegetarian and eats eggs and dairy then the lysine factor is probably not an issue. There are a few other nutrients that I might be concerned about, but again if you do take some care and are mindful of your food choices, it’s probably not an issue. A well-planned diet can appear lots of different ways for lots of people. It does not guarantee weight loss or health. It can control some of those factors, but it is not automatic.

[Pam in CT]

re "purity," and dietary limitations as a kind of cloak for eating disorders:

Here's an interesting article from a former vegan blogger who now admits she suffered from an eating disorder called "orthorexia":

 

 

Quite a few vegans of my acquaintance definitely show this kind of extreme fixation on "purity".

This is interesting - thank you.

 

Both my daughters have had close friends really struggle with -- in one case very nearly die of -- eating disorders, and both -- independent of this orthorexia language -- have independently come to believe that (in the absence of something like celiac or life-threatening allergies) food restrictions can easily cloak underlying eating issues, particularly in their generation, where dietary restrictions of various flavors are so common that a typical group of 10 girls might easily have more than 10 restrictions -- between high/low carb, high/low fat, restrictions based on animal content, restrictions based on religion, "how ____ food makes me feel" etc -- between them.  

 

So in such an environment if a young woman does have an underlying eating issue it's extremely easy to cloak it.

 

 

And perhaps relatedly, preoccupation with "purity," particular that in other people...

At any rate, it ends up being the same thing in practical terms - as I said, I've never met another meat eater who doesn't occasionally eat or use things made via the suffering of animals, not through death but through inhumane living conditions.  Not one, nowhere, never, nada.  I am the only one I have ever met (besides DH).

 

So I lump all meat eaters together because in my experience, they display varying levels of the same tendency - to put personal preference (for cost, or taste, or convenience, or whatever) above the suffering of the animals they're eating.  Yes, it is better to eat grass-fed beef when you can - but if you get fries at McDonald's once a month, I fail to see the moral purity, honestly.

 

... doesn't allow for the reality that for many of us who don't ascribe to all-or-nothing...

 

In food realms as in so many others, Better is still... better.  Less processed food most of the time is... Better than lots of processed all the time.  Mostly (or some, as affordable) organic produce is Better than none at all.  Eating plant-based dinner three times a week is Better than never.   Some $$$ grass-fed sustainably and ethically raised meat is Better than none at all.

 

Even if we DO nip in on occasion to McDonalds, or even if we do still eat supermarket chicken (!)... because cost and taste and convenience or whatever... better's still Better.

 

The purity preoccupations of folks who balance those tradeoffs differently notwithstanding.  It's a big world, roomy enough for divergences of views on which priority we place ascendant.

 

 

[ktgrok]

I will add in that I do not believe a vegetarian diet is the natural diet of humans, nor the optimum for many people health wise, but ethically that doesn't matter. I can respect that people find that natural or not, best or not, they CAN live well eating vegetarian,which for them means they should. That makes tons of sense. Sometimes I even agree with it :)

[Tess in the Burbs]

I decided to go vegetarian last winter.  In the beginning I intended to just eat less meat, more veggies/whole foods.  I lost a lot of weight that spring.  30 pounds total from late Feb-mid May.  Most was during the month of March.  Over summer I've picked 10 of it back up.  I go up and down 5 pounds weekly now.  

 

At first, it was a lot of great veggies/beans.  I found myself eating carbs when I didn't have time to shop weekly or didn't have the money for more veggies after stocking the house with meat for the boys and snacks for between meals.  

 

Planning has been key to be vegetarian and not just eating carbs.  When I plan we have great balance and yes, the scale goes down.  Eating out has been a nightmare.  

I ended up dropping meat completely b/c I felt better.  I also dropped dairy for most of the time.  I know I will have cheese this weekend but it's not a big deal.  I don't eat dairy most of the time.  Family does almond milk/creamer.  Cheese is just about the only dairy left in the fridge.   I lost weight simply b/c I was eating less overall, and definitely less sugar.  

 

Overtime I was eating too much bread/carbs.  For me, I have to be intentional about the beans/veggies.  I agree about finding meals you like and rotating in some new ones.  I actually tried a frozen steamer meal today that had black rice, brown rice, edame, mango, and red peppers in it.  It was wonderful.  And easy.  I also like quinoa bowls and found a frozen one for those days I need to grab and go.  I like a vegan soup that only one store sells and I just have to be good about keeping it in stock in my pantry.  When I don't think about planning meals or what I need to purchase I end up eating a lot of potatoes and pasta.  And the scale goes up. 

 

DD joined me on this adventure and she has had to add a vegan iron to her daily vitamins.  She was really feeling run down, but seems to be doing better now.  We hold each other accountable in regards to the carb issues.  
 

I've been able to keep 20 of those pounds lost last year and I'm pleased with that.  I know if I could be consistent about having whole food in the house I could lose more.  I need to get past Christmas now...we did a lot of baking this year since DS outgrew his nut allergies.  I couldn't resist making all the family favorites we have missed out on for the last 9 years.  We will all need a good cleansing come January lol. 

 

Dh and Ds eat meat and lots of it.  I cook 2 meals most nights.  I like ones I can make and add meat to easily.  Yesterday I made chili and just split everything into 2 pots and added meat for the boys.  We like spicy rice/beans and I add a sausage to the boys plates.  Pasta is an easy one since I just give them meatballs.  But I need to be better about having the side salad ;-)  

 

I don't adhere to a strict vegetarian diet however.  I wanted fried chicken recently, so I had some.  I tasted some ham DH swore was the best ham ever.  It was.  I'm glad I tasted it.  I didn't want a plate of it, but I did enjoy the taste.   For me, it's about better choices.  My stomach is much happier without meat.  When I do eat meat it messes up my stomach awful.  I ate turkey at thanksgiving b/c we were guests and I wasn't going to ask for extra side dishes.  I had already brought gluten free stuffing ;-)   But wow, the meat affects my stomach.  So I don't eat it often.  just not worth it to me.  

 

Is there a name for people who do vegetarian but eat meat maybe 3-4 times a year?  That would be me.  Trying to do it, but not going to freak out if I have a craving and go eat one meal of meat.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't have a problem with hosts serving only dishes that fit their way of eating. What I have a problem with is them imposing it on group potlucks or similar events. And not just reasonable requests like avoiding meat/poultry, eggs, and dairy as ingredients but dictating that people cannot use non-animal products that MIGHT have been processed using a small amount of an animal product. That crosses the line from reasonable ethical concerns to paranoia about "contamination".

 

yup

 

Food has gotten so stupid it's impossible to get together with people if it involves food.

 

And if you happen to have a WOE that isn't fashionable enough at the moment...nobody will care about accommodating. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I will add in that I do not believe a vegetarian diet is the natural diet of humans, nor the optimum for many people health wise, but ethically that doesn't matter. I can respect that people find that natural or not, best or not, they CAN live well eating vegetarian,which for them means they should. That makes tons of sense. Sometimes I even agree with it :)

 

That's how I see it. I cannot argue with someone over their ethical decisions in this department, but I don't buy into the "it's healthier" arguments. 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

That's how I see it. I cannot argue with someone over their ethical decisions in this department, but I don't buy into the "it's healthier" arguments. 

 

 

Not that I think it is unhealthy.  That is not what I mean. 

[ktgrok]

Not that I think it is unhealthy.  That is not what I mean. 

 

I understand. Same here. I don't mean it is inherently unhealthy. But I don't think it is inherently healthier, and I don't think it is the natural diet of humans. 

[ktgrok]

Not that I think it is unhealthy.  That is not what I mean. 

 

I understand. Same here. I don't mean it is inherently unhealthy. But I don't think it is inherently healthier, and I don't think it is the natural diet of humans. 

[Katy]

I have not yet met a single person, online or in real life, ever, who doesn't occasionally eat factory farmed animal products if they eat animal products at all.  If you are one, you are the first!  and I will tell my husband I finally met one :)

 

Almost all of our close friends don't eat factory farmed meat, except possibly at restaurants, but even then they tend to avoid red meat in restaurants.

 

We do things like buy shares of grass fed cows, buffalo, buy 4-H pigs from butchers who bought them from kids at the state fair, etc.  A fair number of our friends have acreages and have turned them into hobby farms to raise their own meat.  We'll probably do the same at some point.

 

I will say though, that it's important to actually visit the farms.  When we lived in Iowa we really liked this goat cheese from one booth at the Des Moines farmer's market, until we decided to go there one day.  Yes, the goats were treated very well, but right there just off the driveway were at least 100 veal pens, which turned me off that farm forever.  Those poor calves still make me feel bad for them.

[Sandwalker]

I think you may be confused. I was specifically responding to the comment about the horrendous conditions the animals are raised in. I was not debating about killing animals at all, it was specifically in response to comment above about the ethics of the conditions the animals are raised in.

As an ethical vegan for over a decade, IMO, it's the death that is the largest ethical issue. Edited December 22, 2017 by Sandwalker

[eternalsummer]

Almost all of our close friends don't eat factory farmed meat, except possibly at restaurants, but even then they tend to avoid red meat in restaurants.

 

We do things like buy shares of grass fed cows, buffalo, buy 4-H pigs from butchers who bought them from kids at the state fair, etc.  A fair number of our friends have acreages and have turned them into hobby farms to raise their own meat.  We'll probably do the same at some point.

 

I will say though, that it's important to actually visit the farms.  When we lived in Iowa we really liked this goat cheese from one booth at the Des Moines farmer's market, until we decided to go there one day.  Yes, the goats were treated very well, but right there just off the driveway were at least 100 veal pens, which turned me off that farm forever.  Those poor calves still make me feel bad for them.

 

This is one of the reasons I eat no dairy.

[eternalsummer]

Also, if I were ever going to eat factory farmed meat, the first thing I'd eat would be red meat.  Feedlotted cows have it a lot better than almost all other factory farmed animals - better than pigs, better than chickens, better than dairy cows (imo), better than laying hens.  

 

But it would have to be a serious health crisis with no other source of calories available, so I don't think it's that likely to come up :)

[Sandwalker]

Wow I didn't realize it was so hard to find in some areas. All the family farms around us let people come tour any time to see just how the animals are raised. The chickens are definitely like pets and they breed their own and let them lay whenever and wherever they want. It can be like an Easter egg hunt on their farms.

What do they do with the male chicks hatched there? And what about the laying hens when their production slows?

[Sandwalker]

The claim that not eating meat is "always the more ethical choice" is what I disagree with. I've seen the film footage of animals in horrible conditions, and I've seen film footage of humans on the brink of starvation, eating rats, etc. just to stay alive. Or they raise a goat in their yard, their family enjoys the milk, and both animal and humans stay alive.

 

It's so easy to sit in a comfy house in North America and tell the world they are all unethical if they eat meat. What is the point, though? Who feels better?

Would your family starve without meat? No vegan is suggesting that the third world poor go vegan. What we are suggesting is that if the first world stopped eating so much meat and dairy, using up so much if the world's resources, there would be enough food to feed every human. Feed the corn and soybeans now fed to animals to humans. Use the land now used for pasturing animals to grow food.

[Sandwalker]

 

 

But ethics are personal, yes? And so you can assert that eating meat, etc is perfectly ethical and yet I can say that I find those choices unethical. Largely I expect because our ethical considerations and metrics are vastly different. It isn’t dismissive, it’s a difference in ethics. I think your example is over simplified and at best a correlation, not a causation. We can agree to disagree here as I’m not interested in going ten rounds of debate over it. And even if we were to do so and agree that there was some people group somewhere in the world that required meat consumption, that still wouldn’t negate hornblower’s ability to say that she does not believe that meat consumption is ethical.

 

What I find annoying are that there are certain posters who will always pop up and make the same assertions. For instance, Crimson Wife will always pop up and talk about the incredible burden non-vegans face in potluck situations and beat the bone char dead horse because she knows this one vegan who is now the poster child for all vegans, everywhere. And then they’ll trot out the former vegans and orthorexia. And how dare vegans ever expect the same consideration when it comes to family gatherings or restaurant selection in groups. I seriously need a BINGO card for these discussions, because I can guarantee I would get BINGO every time. I can also guarantee you the same handful of posters will come out of the woodwork at the slightest mention of vegans or vegetarians like it’s Festivus and the thread means its time for the airing of grievances.

 

For me, eating meat and animal products is not an ethical choice. I became vegan for health, I stayed for the ethics. I have had to skip going out to eat with family twice in that time period because in both cases my options for something to eat were overpriced salad (because restaurants load even the most basic salads with meat and dairy, but still charge the same price if they leave those things off) and some version of potatoes. I have also trucked a whole meal to a family gathering including the dish I was told to bring to share in order to make sure I had something to eat because not a single one of the other dishes that other people brought were something I could eat. I have eaten before or after going to an event. I have put up with all kinds of people who think they’re nutrition experts and take any expression of me being vegan as a personal judgment against them and they will tell me all the reasons why they personally think I’m ridiculous and wrong. It doesn’t matter how carefully I express things nor how plain I make it that my choices and my ethics are my own. It doesn’t even matter if I’m answering a question they themselves asked! Same result. For every rude vegan out there who is raised up as the reason why all vegans are wrong, I can counter with a rude omnivore. I’ve got plenty.

 

A well-planned diet is important for all human beings in order to be healthy. Vegetarians and vegans are no different. Personally, I wouldn’t go without beans/legumes but if one is vegetarian and eats eggs and dairy then the lysine factor is probably not an issue. There are a few other nutrients that I might be concerned about, but again if you do take some care and are mindful of your food choices, it’s probably not an issue. A well-planned diet can appear lots of different ways for lots of people. It does not guarantee weight loss or health. It can control some of those factors, but it is not automatic.

You asked for it...[emoji23]

[itsheresomewhere]

Oh, I see, I hadn't thought that about the alcohol. Yes, in that case, if that were my belief, I can see not wanting to pay for a wedding where alcohol was served. How could you promote (via buying it for others) something you yourself think is bad for both them and for other people?

 

I am on your side about the plastic water bottles (and I am not someone who cares that much about trash/waste). People don't need their own plastic water bottle. They might want one, but they also probably want a free Ferrari, or at least a limo ride to the event. Water in cups is perfectly normal and acceptable - they are not going to get sick from it and this way they also are not going to create more waste than necessary (on your dime!).

 

Plus, individual bottles of water are monetarily insanely wasteful.

Normally I would agree with you on the water bottles but after watching a kid stick his month on the water dispenser. :ack2:  :ack2: ... I kind of prefer water bottles at certain parties.

Edited December 22, 2017 by itsheresomewhere

[OrganicJen]

As an ethical vegan for over a decade, IMO, it's the death that is the largest ethical issue.

My comment had nothing to do with what is the largest ethical issue, it merely addressed one specific ethical issue that was brought up.

[OrganicJen]

What do they do with the male chicks hatched there? And what about the laying hens when their production slows?

Lol, they eat them, and we eat some of them too, especially young roosters, and some older hens become pets, but usually they are eaten too, but typically not sold for customers to buy because they can be tougher and need to be stewed or used for bone broth often. Do people actually think that you can't eat roosters? We often buy roosters to eat from them at a lower price than hens.

[Crimson Wife]

Would your family starve without meat? No vegan is suggesting that the third world poor go vegan. What we are suggesting is that if the first world stopped eating so much meat and dairy, using up so much if the world's resources, there would be enough food to feed every human. Feed the corn and soybeans now fed to animals to humans. Use the land now used for pasturing animals to grow food.

This is the ethical argument against eating meat (especially red meat) that I actually find persuasive and why I eat a plant-based diet with only small amounts of poultry and fish. I don’t consider eating animals as immoral in itself but I do believe it consumes too many resources to be as central a part of the diet as the typical American makes it.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Greta]

 

Is there a name for people who do vegetarian but eat meat maybe 3-4 times a year?

I believe the term “flexitarian†has been coined for this.

[creekland]

If you're interested in the topic, I'd encourage you to look at the Blue Zone studies.  The longest-lived populations eat very little meat (something like once or twice a month, and even then very modest portions, if I'm remembering correctly?), and the longest-lived one of all is the vegetarian Seventh Day Adventists of Loma Linda, CA.  You might also check out NutritionFacts.org and/or How Not to Die.

 

Just to get a little nit-picky, the Loma Linda group is not the longest living of all.  They are among the longest living group of Americans.  ;)  And according to the Blue Zones website itself that I double checked my facts on since it's been a while since I've read the book, they eat fish (as a group - I expect not all do).  This article was linked from their website:

 

https://www.runnersworld.com/health/9-healthy-habits-of-the-worlds-longest-living-people/slide/9

 

Shorter synopsis of 9 habits:

 

https://bluezones.com/2016/11/power-9/

 

For us, I have no ethical issues with eating meat at all.  We eat a lot less than most Americans do for our health, but we try to incorporate the other 8 important habits too.  Even on his list of 9 habits, food is down at #5.  Moving throughout the day is #1.  No gyms were involved in at least most of the places if I recall correctly.  Just a lot of movement as "typical."  The book is worth a read.  The website offers a free newsletter (which we already subscribe to).  My youngest son's first study abroad was to Ikaria, Greece doing an intense study of the topic.  ;)

[Sandwalker]

If you became vegetarian at any time in your life I was wondering how it made you feel? How did it affect your health? energy levels? immune system? Did you stick with it? If not, why not? Is being vegetarian a lot different than just eating a lot less meat?

 

Is it possible to be vegetarian and stay healthy without eating beans or a lot of nuts and eating a lot of these, eggs and rice instead?

 

Does becoming vegetarian almost always cause weight loss?

So hi, I'll actually address the OP now. :) I became a vegetarian gradually about 12ish years ago due to then 12ds influence. He typed up a list of reasons to go veg-- he had his environmental, ethical, and health reasons. So dh wanted to eat healthier, so we three went veg. Dd16 at the time continued to eat pescetarian and eggs, no dairy.

 

We all learned a lot about nutrition. We all learned a lot about shopping, cooking, spices, flavors, organics, in season foods, flash frozen fruits and veggies, sprouted breads, pressure cooking, slow cooking, new produce, new grains and root vegetables. After going vegan about ten years ago, we are all healthy, normal weight, relatively active. Sometimes D's seems like he's constantly eating because he uses up so much fuel with his workouts. His wife is long-term vegan too, and thin and healthy, great at yoga.

 

We get very few colds and stomach bugs,but we were like that before vegging out, so can't attribute it to veganism.

 

About eating at friends' or out in a restaurant, it's rarely hard to find vegan options. Even our local sports bar has spaghetti marinara, salad no cheese and a bread roll. Not my favorite or healthy, but hey we get to watch the game and have a beer.

 

Lately my ddil has been cooking for us from the book Vegan on $4 a Day. Some good easy food!

http://bitesizevegan.com/vegan-lifestyle-2/how-to-eat-vegan-on-4-a-day-recipes-resources/

Edited December 22, 2017 by Sandwalker

[Greta]

Just to get a little nit-picky, the Loma Linda group is not the longest living of all. They are among the longest living group of Americans. ;)

 

Hey, nit-picky is fine by me! :D I heard (podcast?) or read somewhere that the longevity of the Loma Linda population had surpassed all of the other populations studied since the original study took place. But I don’t even remember now where I got that, and it (or my memory of it) could have been mistaken.

 

I’m just in the process of reading the Blue Zones book right now. Fascinating stuff!

[OrganicJen]

I think it depends on the type of vegetarian you are.

 

There are vegetarians who simply don't eat meat. Many of these rely on meat substitutes and carb heavy foods so they aren't usually particularly healthy.

 

Then there are the vegetarians who have opted for a plant based diet and choose mainly fruits, veggie sand whole grains. I have found many of these people to be healthier than normal because they are looking at food/diet in an entirely different way, rather than just cutting out meat (if that makes sense).

I have found this to also be reflected in the cookbooks. Although we eat pasture raised meats, we eat more plant based foods than anything else and grow a lot of it ourselves using permaculture techniques and also hydroponics. I really love growing heirloom veggies. So I often read vegan or vegetarian cookbooks because I'm always looking for more ways to prepare all the veggies we eat that are less common in general cookbooks such as kohlrabi, daikon, etc. But I have been surprised on many occasions to find a vegetarian cookbook will just have recipes that are meat based recipes with meat substitutes. I was really surprised by this the first time because I used to think vegetarian meant more focused on vegetables and fruits and for some it does, but for many it just means no meat but with no real increase in vegetables. I think as others have said, it's a big part of why people's experiences with trying vegetarianism are often so varied.

[Liz CA]

So, I could give up meat easily but not fish. I love fish and feel it's an integral part of my diet (Scandinavian :)). Is there an ethical objection to this as well as in overfishing, processing, etc? I do understand those concerns but I think sourcing comes into play here as well. Other than ethical objections, are some people opposed to eating fish for health reasons? I know about the mercury issues but again, sourcing and knowledge about what to choose is important. 

Just to clarify: When I say fish, I do not really think of crustaceans but actually fish.

[Sandwalker]

I have found this to also be reflected in the cookbooks. Although we eat pasture raised meats, we eat more plant based foods than anything else and grow a lot of it ourselves using permaculture techniques and also hydroponics. I really love growing heirloom veggies. So I often read vegan or vegetarian cookbooks because I'm always looking for more ways to prepare all the veggies we eat that are less common in general cookbooks such as kohlrabi, daikon, etc. But I have been surprised on many occasions to find a vegetarian cookbook will just have recipes that are meat based recipes with meat substitutes. I was really surprised by this the first time because I used to think vegetarian meant more focused on vegetables and fruits and for some it does, but for many it just means no meat but with no real increase in vegetables. I think as others have said, it's a big part of why people's experiences with trying vegetarianism are often so varied.

I'm a cookbook lover. Lots of the vegetarian cookbooks are written by non-vegetarians, and those are usually the ones with boring, just-sub-the-meat types. And there are vegetarian cookbooks for people who can't cook or are living in dorms, so those are filled with processed foods. Ditto with books written specifically to help meat-eaters transition to vegetarian.

 

I'm a much better cook as a vegan, and I cook far healthier food than I did before my switch. My spice cabinet is breathtaking (to me). :)

[Sandwalker]

 

 

So, I could give up meat easily but not fish. I love fish and feel it's an integral part of my diet (Scandinavian :)). Is there an ethical objection to this as well as in overfishing, processing, etc? I do understand those concerns but I think sourcing comes into play here as well. Other than ethical objections, are some people opposed to eating fish for health reasons? I know about the mercury issues but again, sourcing and knowledge about what to choose is important.

Just to clarify: When I say fish, I do not really think of crustaceans but actually fish.

Some estimates say the oceans will be fishless by 2045. Fish gasp for oxygen when caught, flapping around trying to get back to the water. They sort of backwards drown.

 

Recently in our area, a family was fishing in the park (legal) and another family was nearby. The woman caught a pretty big fish, and she put it on the ground, calling for her family to come see. The fish was flapping and opening and closing his mouth frantically. A boy from the non-fishing family, around 10 yo, grabbed the fish and threw it back in the lake. The fishing family started screaming and filming him, and called the cops. The other family turned out to be protesting the fishing going on in the park. No charges were filed.

 

What I couldn't stop thinking about was the cat that was with the fishing family. If the boy had thrown the cat in the lake and drowned it, he would have been arrested. But for stopping people from "air drowning" a fish, he got a lecture from the cop and smeared on social media/in the local media.

 

Oh, back on track, much of the fish eaten in the US is factory farmed as well, being fed cornmeal or chopped up dead fish. Some of the fish farm conditions are revolting.

[Joyofsixreboot]

My dd is 25 and has been a vegetarian since age 12. Her biggest complaint is that when going out with friends she just gives up and orders the salad. This is a function of her friends and living in a "meaty" part of the country. She has been off gluten for 4 months (actual GI stuff) so she can't resort to bread anymore.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Bluegoat]

I have not yet met a single person, online or in real life, ever, who doesn't occasionally eat factory farmed animal products if they eat animal products at all.  If you are one, you are the first!  and I will tell my husband I finally met one :)

 

I would say the same about non-animal products.  

[Bluegoat]

The claim that not eating meat is "always the more ethical choice" is what I disagree with.  I've seen the film footage of animals in horrible conditions, and I've seen film footage of humans on the brink of starvation, eating rats, etc. just to stay alive. Or they raise a goat in their yard, their family enjoys the milk, and both animal and humans stay alive.

 

It's so easy to sit in a comfy house in North America and tell the world they are all unethical if they eat meat. What is the point, though? Who feels better? 

 

I also have a problem with this idea, on totally different grounds.

 

I live in a place that is good for small farming.  I can easily get meat for my freezer, cheeses, etc, that IMO are farmed in an ethical and sustainable way, fairly close to my home.  In some cases, like lamb, I can even get it at the grocery store, but there are also farmers markets and farm shares available for meat, fish, and vegetables and fruit.  Actual fluid milk is a little tricker because of the supply management system - you don't have the same tendency to small farms although they are smaller than in many other provinces and there is less variation in what you can get  - but it's still not that unreasonable and there are some options for milk from places you can go and see the operation and feel the farms are being run with a goal of ethical sustainable management.  

 

All of these farms tend to have a lot of varied plant and animal life - not like the giant monocultures you see out west.

 

I really can't say that these choices are always worse than any non-animal choice.  I can get nuts or nut-milks that are a staple of many vegan diets, but the nuts come from California.  Lots of out of season vega also come from California - lettuce, beans, carrots etc, these are all non-sustainable and highly environmentally destructive.  Oranges grown in Israel, country that has desalination plants for water.  Coconut based products, avocados and avocado oil - these are also problematic from the point of habitat destruction, and food security, sustainability.  All these things require shipping infrastructure.  And there are human costs in many of the countries these plant products are shipped from in terms of cash cropping and local diet - and that in turn also contributes significantly to damage to the local ecology.  Organic certification is almost useless when it comes to these questions as industrial organic agriculture is just a mirror of industrial agriculture generally.

 

And it's just very difficult to be very sure about what goes on on farms thousands of miles away, or to have political influence on farm laws and systems that far away.

 

So no - I don' think eating animal products produced under ecologically sustainable methods is always worse than eating a plant product thats contributing the the total destruction of some other ecosystem.  That seems crazy.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I have not yet met a single person, online or in real life, ever, who doesn't occasionally eat factory farmed animal products if they eat animal products at all.  If you are one, you are the first!  and I will tell my husband I finally met one :)

 

I haven't met too many people who even talk about this (except on-line).  They just eat.

 

Not everyone has access to stuff direct from a local farm.  Not everyone has the money or energy to even pursue such a thing.  Hell, I'd say even where I am, the concept of farmer's market is mostly some sort of foo foo fad because it's completely unpractical to spend $10 for a bulb of garlic or three to four times the price for produce (that the farm stand person possibly got from a local grocery store anyways because not a lot grows in my area so where are they getting it I always wonder).  Once a year I trek to some "somewhat" local dairy farms for cheese (we do have a lot of dairy farms in the state).  This is a complete splurge for me and certainly not something I could afford to do on any sort of regular basis. 

[ktgrok]

As an ethical vegan for over a decade, IMO, it's the death that is the largest ethical issue.

When I was vegan it was the conditions before death that I was most upset by so I get where she is coming from.

[Bluegoat]

Honestly, most people are constrained by their budget with food, and other things.

 

I'd love to buy locally produced clothing all the time, but there is no way I can afford it.  So - the fact is I don't know a lot about the conditions where many of my clothes were made, and in some cases they don't last as well as better quality would.  Ethically, I'm not happy with those things.

 

I'd like to live in a place that didn't generate its electricity with oil, but I don't, and I'm not in a position to install solar or wind power, or use lanterns and a fireplace and no electricity.

 

We all live within a larger system we can't step out of.  And the options for us are determined by what we have access to in terms of place and money, mostly.  Being able to choose to bt the few nuts that are grown sustainably, or order venison, install solar panels - all these things have a lot to do with access to money.  Now some people maybe will be willing to be very committed - I for example could choose to live off of root veg all winter - local, sustainable, veg, sounds great.  But I'm probably not going to do that, and I'm not sure I appreciate people with greater means who can afford to buy all the trendy things telling me I ought to.

[spaceman]

I can even go deeper.....I was RAW Vegan for 6 months. I felt fantastic. Tons of energy. I felt like my skin and hair were better. I drank lots of lemon water and ginger lemon water. I have a nice dehydrator and I used Alyssa Cohan's recipe book and got really into it.

 

I did not lose weight. Too many nuts, seeds, and my body just does not let go of weight. But I felt good.

 

The problem for me was that it was hard to live in society and be raw vegan. You can't go out with friends or out at all much. I could only pay $10 for a bowl of lettuce. It was hard.

 

I then went just vegan, but not raw. That helped and I added in grains.

 

I finally went back to regular eating with meat again.

 

If you want to lose weight and be vegetarian, I recommend getting this book:

 

https://www.amazon.com/McDougall-Program-Maximum-Weight-Loss/dp/0452273803/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1513858419&sr=8-3&keywords=dr.+john+mcdougall+books

 

I didn't follow it well, but I have friends who did and they lost weight.

Dawn, your raw story is almost exactly mine. 6 months. Mostly Alissa Cohen. I *did* lose weight. And I did feel awesome. And I went off because of how impractical and costly it was.

 

Aside from that little stint, I was a vegetarian for 15 years. I did not lose weight being vegetarian. (I was Ovo Lacto/ I ate eggs and dairy). It's possible to not eat meat and not eat healthy and I did that... I, of course, don't reccomend that.

 

In your opening post, you mentioned some Protein sources. Eggs are great. Rice won't do you a ton of good on the Protein front. Hemp is a complete Protein and is easy to add to things. Too many nuts and seeds will make you gain weight. Beans aren't that high in Protein, but it's what we've relied on when at restaurants. (My family is still all vegetarian, I began eating meat again about 2 years ago.)

[Greta]

So, I could give up meat easily but not fish. I love fish and feel it's an integral part of my diet (Scandinavian :)). Is there an ethical objection to this as well as in overfishing, processing, etc? I do understand those concerns but I think sourcing comes into play here as well. Other than ethical objections, are some people opposed to eating fish for health reasons? I know about the mercury issues but again, sourcing and knowledge about what to choose is important. 

Just to clarify: When I say fish, I do not really think of crustaceans but actually fish.

 

 

I'm sorry, I know this isn't what you want to hear, but since you asked, the over-fishing of the oceans is a very serious concern, and fish farms produce massive amounts of pollution.  In addition to mercury, fish is high in PCB's and dioxin.  

[creekland]

Hey, nit-picky is fine by me! :D I heard (podcast?) or read somewhere that the longevity of the Loma Linda population had surpassed all of the other populations studied since the original study took place. But I don’t even remember now where I got that, and it (or my memory of it) could have been mistaken.

 

I’m just in the process of reading the Blue Zones book right now. Fascinating stuff!

 

I did a quick google search and didn't come up with that anywhere, so if you find something at some point, feel free to update.  It's not a "need" for me.  It's pure curiosity and an update on info if it changes.  ;)

 

We all live within a larger system we can't step out of.  And the options for us are determined by what we have access to in terms of place and money, mostly.  

 

This seems to be the summary - coupled with the fact that we all make choices with what we have.

 

For me, science dominates my brain/thinking.  I know animals pretty well (farm, rural life) and Biology tells me humans are omnivores, not herbivores.  I do not worry about eating meat.  The way humans kill is almost always more humane than the way other predators kill.  There are some exceptions, but I don't spend my life worrying about them or the source of what I eat when it's something I can't control - like visiting someone or at a restaurant or store.  I actually was amused when listening to a comedian once talking about being at a restaurant with the conversation going like this (in the comedian's spiel), "Would you like the free range chicken, sir?"  "You mean the one that was happy before it died?  No, let that one live.  Give me the one who hated life so much that death was a blessing!"

 

But... back to science... we're omnivores that seem to do a bit better with more veggies than meat, but some meat also seems to help (according to nutrition studies).  Therefore, that's what we mostly base our diet upon.  We're not at all strict, esp when we travel or have had a busy day.  I can be happy at Hardees getting a mushroom and swiss burger too and I enjoy my daily full sugar soda, but most of our meals revolve around veggies with meat either a small amount or non-existent. When we eat meat, it's almost always lamb (vastly prefer it to beef and I'm envious of countries where it's less expensive than beef), chicken, or salmon.  We used to hunt our own deer (esp when we couldn't afford lamb), but now that it's just hubby and I at home, we can't eat a whole one ourselves because we simply don't eat enough meat.  We did just get a Butterball fresh turkey for Christmas dinner hearing that FIL wanted turkey.  No regrets, but Christmas dinner doesn't happen every week at our house.  On our farm we have our own chickens, so they produce our eggs.  Every now and then when we need to replace our flock (due to predators getting them) we now get peeps ordered (my boys used to raise our own), and I don't have guilt over that either.  The peeps that come to us are lucky ones (except when the predators get them) in that they can free range, but not everyone lives in an area where this is practical.

 

With fruit/veggies, we try to eat healthy and that means a variety.  In the summer that variety can come pretty local to us - as close as our own organic garden - but in winter?  I shop the produce aisle for more variety (still eating some frozen things from our garden too).  I'm thankful the produce aisle is there for us.  I love pomegranates, pomelos, and oranges this time of year.  I'd have none if I didn't buy them at our store.  They don't grow around here.

 

While there are some who place a high value on MUST EAT VEGGIES with it's correlations of organic or local or whatever, I think humans are better off with a "proven by science" diet and few live in areas where all of that exists at an affordable cost.  I'll always advocate for more veggies/fruits over meat, but not to the point of excluding meat.  (I always advocate for not eating threatened species too - such as many fish varieties from the ocean.)  Don't feel you are alone or that everyone is against you with your thoughts and limitations.

[OrganicJen]

I haven't met too many people who even talk about this (except on-line). They just eat.

 

Not everyone has access to stuff direct from a local farm. Not everyone has the money or energy to even pursue such a thing. Hell, I'd say even where I am, the concept of farmer's market is mostly some sort of foo foo fad because it's completely unpractical to spend $10 for a bulb of garlic or three to four times the price for produce (that the farm stand person possibly got from a local grocery store anyways because not a lot grows in my area so where are they getting it I always wonder). Once a year I trek to some "somewhat" local dairy farms for cheese (we do have a lot of dairy farms in the state). This is a complete splurge for me and certainly not something I could afford to do on any sort of regular basis.

Wow...I had no idea, this is heartbreaking. It's awful to think that local fresh produce is that expensive in some areas that it's a luxury. For us it's less expensive to eat local produce, although our favorite things we just grow. The farmers markets I've been to are less expensive than grocery stores. This makes me sad for our society. My son had this idea that I thought was great, that every flat roofed building should have a hydroponic greenhouse on the roof. So in schools they could grow fresh pesticide and herbicide free foods for lunches, grocery stores with flat roofs could grow food right on their roofs etc.