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Has anyone ever changed your mind?


OrganicJen
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My husband has changed my mind about the nuances of a variety of issues (and failed to change it about a couple of things, hah) :)  

 

Jonathon Saffron Foer (sp?) changed my mind about both the moral issues involved in food production/consumption and the necessarily absolute value of that morality.  I wasn't arguing with him, though - just read a book.

 

I don't really like arguing with people all that much, it makes my blood pressure go up :)  But I do like watching other people argue, and I've had my opinions either changed or clarified by watching debates or interviews.  

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Yes. My overall political and social stance (left leaning - the American version of left) has not changed but I've changed my stance on some specific issues by listening and discussing (not necessarily debating). In some cases the change put me farther to the left and in others I went towards the center.

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I tend to emphasize with people so I usually see merit in both sides of an issue. I sometimes wish that that I could see the ideal world of the two opposing sides. What would a conservative utopia look like and what would a liberal utopia look like, for example. Mostly I wish that people would come together and tackle the issues we can all agree on like human trafficking,disease and hunger.

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Yes, on many, many, many topics, political and not. It is usually not the influence of ONE person. It is usually combined logic over time. That is one reason I feel it is valuable to have debates, because there are often on-lookers whose mind is changed through the course of debate(s) and observation, even if they are never or rarely involved in the conversation.

 

Even homeschooling itself was initially something I thought was bat-sh!t nuts.

You and I must be similar processors.

 

I also started with the never will I ever view of homeschooling. 

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So you're not surprised more people aren't as humble as you.

 

If that's what you want to take from that, you're free to.

 

The point is, going into a discussion as "I've already made my mind up and considered all the angles so I will never change my mind" without acknowledging that you don't.actually.know all the angles is a pretty self-important perspective. I have come from that perspective before and I am actively working on changing it to one of humility, to one of accepting that other people have something to teach me. I am not surprised that so many people are not humble enough to do that. I *am* proud of myself for moving in that direction, even though it feels unnatural, and I think it's worth being proud of.

 

I don't think this is an actual question, though, is it?

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This is what I have experienced too...but I don't think anything anyone has said in a debate over an issue has changed my mind. I think meeting people and seeing with my own eyes how a person who I believe is being honest has been affected by something is useful for me, but I don't think any argument someone has made in any debate has made much of an impression in my beliefs.

 

Well, I don't think I've ever changed my mind in the middle of a debate, but I certainly have changed my mind because of what I heard in a debate.

 

And when you hear people's stories, they aren't always "polite". When you deny people's negative experiences which are a result of a belief that you hold strongly, you cannot expect that person to only say polite things to you. That's asking too much, it isn't a fair fight, and you aren't really open to learning anything.

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I have changed my mind on a couple of issues, but it was because of personal experience.  I would also say that I have very few very, very strongly held opinions, as well.  A lot of my thoughts are in an open palm, so I'm always willing to listen to other people.

 

Politically, I grew up far to one ditch.  Became more moderate as an adult.  Went to a church with a majority of people far in the opposite ditch of what I grew up with.  I became more moderate/leaning that ditch.  One day, my dh and I woke up, "hey, we don't agree with a ton of stuff here!"   We have moved back moderate/leaning towards the ditch I grew up in.  Changed churches and everything.  

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If that's what you want to take from that, you're free to.

 

The point is, going into a discussion as "I've already made my mind up and considered all the angles so I will never change my mind" without acknowledging that you don't.actually.know all the angles is a pretty self-important perspective. I have come from that perspective before and I am actively working on changing it to one of humility, to one of accepting that other people have something to teach me. I am not surprised that so many people are not humble enough to do that. I *am* proud of myself for moving in that direction, even though it feels unnatural, and I think it's worth being proud of.

 

I don't think this is an actual question, though, is it?

Nope, it wasn't a question. I was repeating what you wrote.

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There are a lot of things now where my brain and my gut hold different opinions. I have no idea if others influence that. I can barely remember what I did yesterday, let alone what I believed last year.

 

Sometimes I like to think of what popular opinion will look like in 150 years. There are things that are accepted today that will probably be downright horrifying in the future. We're all gonna look bass awkwards at some point.

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Oh yes, I've definitely changed my mind.  But it usually never happens after one incident or discussion.  It comes after multiple experiences and discussions, along with the passage of time -- time to mull it over, a growing understanding of the other side, a softening of heart, research, etc.

 

This is if you're talking about something deeply personal and important.  If it's something like where to go on vacation, then I might change my mind after one conversation!

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Yes. You chose to read what I wrote in the most negative way possible because you don't like me.

Nope. I don't know you. I was responding to your post. I repeated what you wrote and then you repeated it again. So you've stated it twice...people aren't as humble as you and it doesn't surprise you.

 

Do you think it is negative that people aren't as humble as you?

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I honestly do think that even if a person doesn't change their mind, it's healthier to hear from a wide range of people, including those unlike you. I am pretty grateful for a place to step out of my bubble. I do learn quite a lot from the most unlikely people.

 

I also find it fascinating that even people with whom we disagree 99% of the time - that 1% you're just nodding your heads furiously together, and it's kind of nice. 

 

 

You are actually one of those people for me!  :)

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She's really not saying that. She's reflecting on her own church and social experiences.

 

#givethegirlabreak

This little tangent jumped the shark when 8circles said the reason I responded the way I did was bc I didn't like her and you then "liked" her post.

 

IMO, the conversation essentially ends at that point...if any time a person doesn't like a response, she says, *oh, you just said that bc you don't like me* where does the conversation go?

 

Nowhere, I think.

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Politics, religion, social issues? No, I'm pretty entrenched in my views.  But back in 2006 I was complaining about the gas prices to my sister and she ended up convincing me that high gas prices were a good thing for the environment.  High prices lead to better fuel efficiency (we have an electric car now) and less reliance on fossil fuels.

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Nope. I don't know you. I was responding to your post. I repeated what you wrote and then you repeated it again. So you've stated it twice...people aren't as humble as you and it doesn't surprise you.

 

Do you think it is negative that people aren't as humble as you?

 

No. You don't have any interest in what I actually mean. You have already decided what you think I  mean so it makes no difference how I answer any question you ask me.

 

Again, though, you aren't really asking me, because you've already decided what I think.

 

Have a great time discussing with yourself.

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I find it interesting how many said they've changed a bit due to their spouse.  I changed mine far more than he's changed me.  He grew up very totalitarian.  I grew up very independent.  His style has morphed more to mine than mine to his.  Politics-wise, we're pretty similar - very moderate.  Religion-wise, we're super similar, but have been that way since we've met.  I like that we've grown together rather than apart with our thoughts.

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I think if you like a person, you give them the benefit of the doubt :)

 

She's not saying she's better than anyone else. I mean, I am not very humble, and fake humble gets my back up, but I really don't think she was being holier than thou, just expressing something true for her.

So is this about liking people? And if I simply "liked" someone, I'd agree with them that most people aren't humble enough to change their minds about something?

 

I disagree.

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This little tangent jumped the shark when 8circles said the reason I responded the way I did was bc I didn't like her and you then "liked" her post.

 

IMO, the conversation essentially ends at that point...if any time a person doesn't like a response, she says, *oh, you just said that bc you don't like me* where does the conversation go?

 

Nowhere, I think.

 

I think it's pretty clear that your posts aimed at me are not coming from a desire to discuss given that you are picking out one particular phrasing to repeatedly ask me about, ignoring my greater explanation.

 

So, then, it also becomes clear what your motivation is. Since you've made no move to actually attempt to understand, it is completely disingenuous to say that *my* comment ends the discussion. I've explained. You've ignored.

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This little tangent jumped the shark when 8circles said the reason I responded the way I did was bc I didn't like her and you then "liked" her post.

 

IMO, the conversation essentially ends at that point...if any time a person doesn't like a response, she says, *oh, you just said that bc you don't like me* where does the conversation go?

 

Nowhere, I think.

 

I'm not sure where you expected it to go with your responses, but as someone who doesn't have a dog in the fight, your side isn't coming across very well FWIW.

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I think it's pretty clear that your posts aimed at me are not coming from a desire to discuss given that you are picking out one particular phrasing to repeatedly ask me about, ignoring my greater explanation.

 

So, then, it also becomes clear what your motivation is. Since you've made no move to actually attempt to understand, it is completely disingenuous to say that *my* comment ends the discussion. I've explained. You've ignored.

There's an expression...some people can't see the forest for the trees and other people can't see the forest or the trees bc they are looking at the leaves.

 

I was looking at the leaves.

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I think if you like a person, you give them the benefit of the doubt :)

 

She's not saying she's better than anyone else. I mean, I am not very humble, and fake humble gets my back up, but I really don't think she was being holier than thou, just expressing something true for her.  

 

Thank you, Sadie, for understanding what I meant. I'm not very humble either. Which has actually been pointed out to me several times on this board. And it has been true for each of those times. I think it's a positive that I've recognized that and moved toward a more humble approach to people whose experiences have been different than mine. 

 

I think anytime you change your mind about a strongly held belief, humility has to be a part of it. Unless, of course, you're going to pretend that you were never wrong.

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1.  Yes I have changed my mind.

2.  I love good discussions and even gentle debates but have little interest in heated, contentious, "no respect for anyone but those who follow lock step with me" types pf debates.

3.  I am FAR more likely to listen and genuinely consider the other's point of view if the following are in place:

  • They are not rude or deliberately combative (passionate is fine).
  • They seem to be basing their views on facts not media sound bites.
  • They are willing to listen to my side, as well.  (They aren't just waiting for breaks in the conversation to slam my own views.)
  • They are willing to genuinely discuss and share, not just ram their own views down my throat.

 

 

Hah, that's interesting!  Of your "more likely to consider" criteria, only basing views on facts (that is, using factual, sourced support when applicable, or logical reasoning when not) is something that affects me.  I don't mind rudeness/combativeness; I don't mind willingness or unwillingness to consider the other side; I don't mind unwillingness to share.  I do find someone who can't defend their position (that is, you have a counterargument or question and they either ignore it or ad hom) difficult to take seriously, but if they can defend their position and/or defeat mine, the truth requires that I not reject it just because it was presented unkindly, or abruptly.

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Well, I don't think I've ever changed my mind in the middle of a debate, but I certainly have changed my mind because of what I heard in a debate.

 

And when you hear people's stories, they aren't always "polite". When you deny people's negative experiences which are a result of a belief that you hold strongly, you cannot expect that person to only say polite things to you. That's asking too much, it isn't a fair fight, and you aren't really open to learning anything.

I totally agree. Hearing people's honest personal accounts is probably what has influenced me the most and they often aren't polite. That's part of why I don't feel I usually learn much by debating people who are simply repeating the same argument for or against an issue that they have made 1000 times. It just won't influence me...but if someone can give me an honest personal account then it might give me food for thought at least.

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Hah, that's interesting!  Of your "more likely to consider" criteria, only basing views on facts (that is, using factual, sourced support when applicable, or logical reasoning when not) is something that affects me.  I don't mind rudeness/combativeness; I don't mind willingness or unwillingness to consider the other side; I don't mind unwillingness to share.  I do find someone who can't defend their position (that is, you have a counterargument or question and they either ignore it or ad hom) difficult to take seriously, but if they can defend their position and/or defeat mine, the truth requires that I not reject it just because it was presented unkindly, or abruptly.

I just have a hard time listening to someone when they are shouting expletives and insults.  Nope, not interested in having a conversation like that.  Passionate about the topic, sure, no worries.  Calling me names and deliberately trying to provoke a fight?  Nah.  I've got better things to do with my time.

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Same. Dh tends to join in once I've established my Strong Opinion on Another Thing, lol.

 

He saves his strong opinions for sport and fiction. I can't think of anything he's convinced me of...

 

I've learned to like some "new to me" and (sometimes) southern foods because of my guy.  He introduced me to lima beans (my mom can't stand them) and southern BBQ (YUM!).

 

BUT... I introduced him to northern foods too - and ethnic foods - and vegetables/meats that aren't cooked to death, etc.  Even with that he's changed more toward my preferences than I changed toward his - but BBQ is super worthy and lima beans taste better IF not cooked to death. ;)

 

He still wants to convince me to like sailing.  Time will tell I suppose.

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I just have a hard time listening to someone when they are shouting expletives and insults.  Nope, not interested in having a conversation like that.  Passionate about the topic, sure, no worries.  Calling me names and deliberately trying to provoke a fight?  Nah.  I've got better things to do with my time.

 

Those folks convince me of something... not sure it's what they wanted to convince me of though.   :lol:

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re "evolving tilts"

I sure did read this wrong the first time. :o

A testimony to the power of attending closely, there...  :lol:

 

 

 

My own tilts have definitely evolved in all sorts of areas through exposure to other people's perspectives and lived experiences and responses to those experiences... but maybe "debate" isn't quite the the right word for the mechanism of my evolution...

I'm not a black and white person and I change my opinions based on what I learn; my point I guess that I must not have expressed well, was that my opinions have never been changed through a debate. They have been changed through reading studies, meeting people, personal experiences etc, but never through a debate. I've certainly had useful discussions with people that have been illuminating regarding social or political issues, but no one has ever changed my mind through debating me. So I'm curious if others have had their minds changed in a debate with someone.

 

Yes.  But only when debating with intelligent, conscientious debaters, not with people who are just shouting their opinions to see if they can out-shout the other side.  

 

For example, my religious conversion took place after an 18 month debate with my brother in the form of 1-2 well thought out and heartfelt emails per week, back and forth, between the two of us.  Book readings and recommendations from both of us to the other, etc.  

... these kind of sustained, back-and-forth, substantive, nuanced encounters, both IRL and in this   <<massively unusual and precious space here on WTM>> have supported the evolution of my tilt in a number of areas.

 

I wouldn't call it "debate," though.  More like "mutual exploration" or something, delving into differences.  

 

 

 

And part of what that longer, slower exploration allows is the creation of a degree -- particularly in face-to-face relationships of course, but even I think on line with repeated "encounters" with the same regulars over long periods of time, is that we can begin to "recognize" each other and develop a sense of trust over time, enough to make a sort of space for...

Well, I don't think I've ever changed my mind in the middle of a debate, but I certainly have changed my mind because of what I heard in a debate.

 

And when you hear people's stories, they aren't always "polite". When you deny people's negative experiences which are a result of a belief that you hold strongly, you cannot expect that person to only say polite things to you. That's asking too much, it isn't a fair fight, and you aren't really open to learning anything.

 

... this.  So that the expression of anger and pain doesn't bring the conversation to a screeching flouncy halt...

 

...as does often happen in what I consider to be "debates," and usually shuts them right down.  The defining difference between "mutual exploration" vs "debate" is, to me, that in "mutual exploration," strong anger and pain can be expressed without terminating the process. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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There have been certain studies or books that very much changed my mind about things.  And there was one particular political debate with someone that very firmly and permanently shifted my mind in the opposite direction from what that person was arguing.  It was a long, civil discussion, but I walked away thinking that that person's position was not just incorrect, but also morally reprehensible.  

Edited by JennyD
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I also like to hear from a variety of perspectives, and ideally without censorship.  I find that in an environment that doesn't silence any voices (except spammers or people saying/posting illegal material), ideas have free rein and can be/have to be defended on their merits.

 

I think there also needs to be a little bit of protection against abusive speech. We've all seen news comment sections that are totally unmoderated. Ideas don't have free rein. It's all "libtard" this and "rethuglican" that, and people threatening graphic violence against those they disagree with. The end result is that the bots and the trolls win.

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I think there also needs to be a little bit of protection against abusive speech. We've all seen news comment sections that are totally unmoderated. Ideas don't have free rein. It's all "libtard" this and "rethuglican" that, and people threatening graphic violence against those they disagree with. The end result is that the bots and the trolls win.

That's true, sometimes when there are so many personal attacks any real exchange of ideas is drowned out completely.

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You can ignore personal attacks.  Their presence is a price I'm willing to pay for free exchange of ideas.  I've not yet seen moderation that doesn't also moderate ideas, tbh.  

 

On 4chan/pol, the bots and trolls haven't won.  Sure, there are lots of ideas posted there I don't agree with, and some things I wish I could unsee/unread, but there are also ideas and perspectives that are not allowed almost anywhere else on the internet - and all perspectives are allowed there, so you can and do get a mix of opinions that doesn't exist on the various sites that serve one or another interest.  

 

News comment sections are, in my experience, not unmoderated.  Some of them may be less moderated, but I haven't seen one that is unmoderated.

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Giving this some more thought, and I wanted to add that the people who have most been able to change my mind have been my husband and adult children.  I guess because I know them so well (and respect them), that I trust the thought, process, and intentions they've put into coming up with their own opinions and convictions.

 

 

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People who argue with me and basically tell me I am an idiot do more than sway me, they help me stand firm in my current beliefs.  However, I can be swayed by people who discuss rationally, articles well written that don't attack the other side, and facts that I can then research on my own.  

 

As I have aged, especially in the last few years......I have changed my mind about a few things......two of those big things are politics and religion (I haven't lost my religion but I am leaning more away from my traditional thinking.....), so I guess yes.

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I think there also needs to be a little bit of protection against abusive speech. We've all seen news comment sections that are totally unmoderated. Ideas don't have free rein. It's all "libtard" this and "rethuglican" that, and people threatening graphic violence against those they disagree with. The end result is that the bots and the trolls win.

What I sometimes wonder is if there is any way to turn the tide when people are just talking to hear themselves spout their obviously only correct view; when they clearly are barely reading the people taking the opposite view and are merely devolving into attacks and endless spouting of their rightness. Can such a person or conversation ever be steered into productive ground?

 

I just left a convo of this type on a different site because of one douchbag who is drowning out the entire conversation. ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s a shame because I think it is an interesting and important conversation. (It was about the Masterpiece Cakes hearing in the SCOTUS.) I fully expect that one turd to keep trying to taunt me into replying, but IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m done. But itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s a shame because I find that case very interesting and important and would enjoy talking about with non-douchebags.

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I've changed my mind on things, but most often I find it's a change of emphasis or a slower change over time.  I don't often change my basic ideas about something - say, that justice is important, or most people want to be good  - but I think that's true of most people.  Those kinds of major changes are like conversions.  I've known a few people who have those conversions on a regular basis, and I don't think they were actually especially open-minded, they had unstable personalities, or no ability to discern.

 

It's interesting to me that a lot of people are moved very much by other people's experiences.  That is something that I find useful on a more limited basis - particularly with relation to practical issues - how to organize public housing, say - all the ideology you like isn't important if it doesn't actually do what you intend, after all.  And it can round out a picture of a situation in a factual way.  But I don't tend to find what people sometimes call "lived experience" all that convincing in the way that others seem to find - I guess I tend not to think that an interpretation of events, even events in one's own life - is necessarily validated because the person who had the experiences interprets it that way - sometimes the opposite is the case, and in the end, everybody has the perspective of their experiences but they can't all be correct.

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What I sometimes wonder is if there is any way to turn the tide when people are just talking to hear themselves spout their obviously only correct view; when they clearly are barely reading the people taking the opposite view and are merely devolving into attacks and endless spouting of their rightness. Can such a person or conversation ever be steered into productive ground?

 

I just left a convo of this type on a different site because of one douchbag who is drowning out the entire conversation. ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s a shame because I think it is an interesting and important conversation. (It was about the Masterpiece Cakes hearing in the SCOTUS.) I fully expect that one turd to keep trying to taunt me into replying, but IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m done. But itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s a shame because I find that case very interesting and important and would enjoy talking about with non-douchebags.

I don't know...I kind of believe there can be the Saul/Paul transforrmation. The big out of the blue out/lightning type of conversion/mind change.

 

In those situations, the converted person would have been exposed to the "other side"...even while they are "spouting" their own view, to use your phrase.

 

IOW, I'm not really convinced that a special rare quality (for example, humility/being humble) in always necessary in order for a person to change their mind.

 

I'm sorry the S/V agreement issues...

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What I sometimes wonder is if there is any way to turn the tide when people are just talking to hear themselves spout their obviously only correct view; when they clearly are barely reading the people taking the opposite view and are merely devolving into attacks and endless spouting of their rightness. Can such a person or conversation ever be steered into productive ground?

 

I just left a convo of this type on a different site because of one douchbag who is drowning out the entire conversation. ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s a shame because I think it is an interesting and important conversation. (It was about the Masterpiece Cakes hearing in the SCOTUS.) I fully expect that one turd to keep trying to taunt me into replying, but IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m done. But itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s a shame because I find that case very interesting and important and would enjoy talking about with non-douchebags.

I don't know...I kind of believe there can be the Saul/Paul transforrmation. The big out of the blue out/lightning type of conversion/mind change.

 

In those situations, the converted person would have been exposed to the "other side"...even while they are "spouting" their own view, to use your phrase.

 

IOW, I'm not really convinced that a special rare quality (for example, humility/being humble) in always necessary in order for a person to change their mind.

 

I'm sorry for the S/V agreement issues...*

 

*edited bc I can't even apologize coherently.

Edited by unsinkable
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I have had my mind changed a few times by (thought out, respectful) arguments. It doesn't happen on the spot. It's usually that I hear the argument, feel really really defensive, can't sleep at night, turn it over in my mind,  still feel defensive, examine why I feel that way...and realize it's because my side of the argument is lame. 

 

This is different than the constant evolution of ideas and beliefs I have that are more gradual. 

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I think there also needs to be a little bit of protection against abusive speech. We've all seen news comment sections that are totally unmoderated. Ideas don't have free rein. It's all "libtard" this and "rethuglican" that, and people threatening graphic violence against those they disagree with. The end result is that the bots and the trolls win.

 

For sure.

 

I think there's a difference between abusive speech and blunt, honest speech that hurts. The truth does hurt sometimes.

 

Sometimes this difference is clear, sometimes more blurry.

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It's interesting to me that a lot of people are moved very much by other people's experiences.

 

Yes, me too. 

 

I deliberately try to put n=1 anecdotal stories in their proper place. It seems we're hardwired to give them way more credence than they deserve so the logical thing is to realize that they influence us perhaps unreasonably, step back, and try to consider real, large scale evidence. 

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Yes, me too. 

 

I deliberately try to put n=1 anecdotal stories in their proper place. It seems we're hardwired to give them way more credence than they deserve so the logical thing is to realize that they influence us perhaps unreasonably, step back, and try to consider real, large scale evidence. 

 

When I say that people's experience has swayed me, it isn't *just* their stories. It's their stories tied to concrete evidence of why their story went where it did. I used to support all kinds of things that caused difficulty, pain, were discriminatory & unjust. I didn't see the relationship between what I supported and other people's pain, I only saw my reasoning based on my perspective which I told myself was enough. That's what the stories showed me, that my perspective wasn't enough.

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Yes, me too.

 

I deliberately try to put n=1 anecdotal stories in their proper place. It seems we're hardwired to give them way more credence than they deserve so the logical thing is to realize that they influence us perhaps unreasonably, step back, and try to consider real, large scale evidence.

n=1 doesn't even register much on my scale. Sometimes it does like with each individual refugee story, but mainly after awhile you realize n is much greater than one. That makes a difference.

 

I am also a big believer in stats, recognizing that they don't apply to the individual, but very much apply to large groups. Those can change my mind on things too.

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It's interesting to me that a lot of people are moved very much by other people's experiences.  

Yes, me too. 

 

I deliberately try to put n=1 anecdotal stories in their proper place. It seems we're hardwired to give them way more credence than they deserve so the logical thing is to realize that they influence us perhaps unreasonably, step back, and try to consider real, large scale evidence. 

 

 

I try to actively do this as well, without wholesale discounting them, but not giving them undue weight when the body of evidence and logic is contrary. One personĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s experience can suck even in something generally good and healthy. There are always outliers. They matter, but I wouldnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t change my mind over emotion alone, there has to be more than just sympathy behind a change of position for me.

 

 

I can't seem to find it now but a few years ago I listened to an episode of This American Life about (unscientific) tests that showed just that - that people are more moved by hearing about the experiences of others than by facts. 

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