S/O social and cultural differences re family meals

[eternalsummer]

I find it interesting how so far in this thread all I've read about is a female person hosting. 

 

Why is it that the men in the families aren't hosts for big family dinners? 

 

Women largely do the cooking, and often the house cleaning and decorating and etc.

 

It's like asking why you assume the person who will come to collect your trash, or trim your tree, or put out your house fire, is male.  Statistically, women do the majority of what we consider the work of hosting big family meals.  Men, statistically, do the majority of dangerous jobs in society; we just make assumptions based on the numbers.

[Seeking Squirrels]

1- I also cannot process the food running out. We go to my mom's and we have so much food we split up the leftovers three ways so our family, my brother's family, and my mom/step dad can eat leftovers for 2-3 days. I can't imagine trying to make just the right amount of food so everyone gets enough but no leftovers. 

 

2- If GF indicated it was still fine for him to come an hour late, then she should have made up a full plate for him before it all ran out.

 

3 - If this was somewhere the GF did not have any say over the food or felt uncomfortable claiming a plate for BF, then she should have made it clear to BF that she couldn't guarantee food. 

 

4- Teddy is too extreme in the other direction. AFTER everyone present has had their fill, then if the host is amenable to the idea you could make up a plate to take away as leftovers. But definitely not before everyone has had a first run through the line. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I find it interesting how so far in this thread all I've read about is a female person hosting.

 

Why is it that the men in the families aren't hosts for big family dinners?

One of my brothers hosts Thanksgiving dinner. His wife hosts her country’s holidays. He hasn’t had any hosting mishaps though to post about.

[HS Mom in NC]

My brother hosts and his wife helps or I host and my husband helps.  Our kids help.  Everyone brings something-people who work lots of hours and don't cook much bring purchased items: drinks, tamales, rolls, store bought desserts, disposable place settings if that's what the host is doing that year, and everyone else brings side dishes and desserts.  The host does the turkey because our family recipe (that my husband found online more than a decade ago) involves brineing it for 2 days and radiant heat cooking and smoking it on a grill.  It's fantastic the day of and amazing the next day. All of the extended family brings extra tables and chairs.

It's too risky to have someone do all of it-what if they get sick? What if they have a family emergency? What if they burn it? When you divide up the labor everyone is invested and everyone helps each other out which are very good family values.

I say all that as someone who typically has 3 TGs a year to go to.  I went to my dad's today to see his brothers with mine and we did leftover style (turkey and ham sandwiches) at his place but everyone else brought things to contribute.  Some was homemade and some was store bought but all of it was a group effort.

[marbel]

I find it interesting how so far in this thread all I've read about is a female person hosting. 

 

Why is it that the men in the families aren't hosts for big family dinners? 

 

We're all women posting here.  If there were more men posting on this board, maybe you'd hear of more men hosting.  But as others have noted, when I say "I" I mean "we" as in my husband and family included.  

 

I am the main planner and cook because I don't work.  But the whole family discusses the food and makes the plans. 

 

My husband makes apple pie if we have one.  He plans the wine for our dinner. If we are having company, he plans all the beverages (wines, cocktails, beers etc).   My son makes three corn casserole because that's his favorite. My daughter makes place cards and helps in general (she hates to cook). Everyone helps with the table and cleanup.  My husband greets people and generally gets/keeps the conversation flowing as needed. Those are just the main things. I couldn't put on a big Thanksgiving (or any) feast without them.  Well, and why would I bother?  LOL.

 

My brother did all the feast cooking for his family.  So did a friend of mine.  I know a few men who do most of the cooking, feast days and otherwise.  They don't post here. :-)

[Seasider]

Different cultures, true.

 

When I had my first few Thanksgivings with young kids, there was no one around to cook with me but my husband.

 

:-)

I was in the same position years ago. We had friendsgivings before friendsgivings were a thing.

 

And I enjoyed them more!

(Don't tell my extended family I said that...)

[Seasider]

I find it interesting how so far in this thread all I've read about is a female person hosting.

 

Why is it that the men in the families aren't hosts for big family dinners?

Oh! There's a boardie whose husband did so much of the cooking over the years. Iirc they dropped hosting for some reason...unappreciative relatives? I can't remember. But a husband was represented here!

[Murphy101]

Given the many people at the food bank hoping for a turkey, I can easily understand many people don’t have leftovers, and certainly not copious amounts of leftovers. They are mostly glad for a serving and doubly glad if they can manage to share their small portion with family and friends.

 

So the GF didn’t set aside a big plate for him.

He was invited to share with strangers and complained his plate wasn’t big enough.

 

My first thought is some people can’t seem to grasp what giving thanks is supposed to mean.

[lavender's green]

I find it interesting how so far in this thread all I've read about is a female person hosting. 

 

Why is it that the men in the families aren't hosts for big family dinners? 

 

I find it interesting that you glossed by my gender-neutral post!

[SKL]

I find it interesting how so far in this thread all I've read about is a female person hosting. 

 

Why is it that the men in the families aren't hosts for big family dinners? 

 

My brother does, but my mom likes to have Thanksgiving at her house.

 

My dad cleans the house, bakes the pies, and makes the stuffing and gravy, among other things.  He carves the turkey and presides over serving.  He would do more, but my sister, who lives nearby and loves to cook, does much of the rest.  My mom is the organizer and tries to get into the kitchen enough to make sure the turkey is being done right.  (I am sure my dad could handle the turkey, but my mom likes to do this.)

 

So if you want to be picky, you could say my dad is more the host than my mom is, but why fuss about it ... it doesn't matter to them....

 

ETA I just looked back over all my posts, and I would say they were pretty gender neutral.  I think maybe you are reading gender into terms like "the hosts" and "my folks."

Edited November 27, 2017 by SKL

[EmseB]

Given the many people at the food bank hoping for a turkey, I can easily understand many people don’t have leftovers, and certainly not copious amounts of leftovers. They are mostly glad for a serving and doubly glad if they can manage to share their small portion with family and friends.

 

So the GF didn’t set aside a big plate for him.

He was invited to share with strangers and complained his plate wasn’t big enough.

 

My first thought is some people can’t seem to grasp what giving thanks is supposed to mean.

 

Except some people can be thankful for what they did get, of course don't say anything to the host to complain, but also be disappointed that they were forgotten while everyone else enjoyed a full meal.

 

I have actually been in his shoes before (not with food, but with another holiday celebration) and it deeply hurts to feel forgotten or as an afterthought when everyone else is enjoying themselves. It's possible to feel that disappointment, solicit feedback or even gripe about it with other friends, and still realize that one is more blessed than most to receive a small plate of scrapings and one piece of turkey.

 

It doesn't have to be either/or. In fact, being reminded to be thankful when one is forgotten during a major holiday can make a person feel even crappier.  Not only were they left out, but feeling bad about it is also wrong and selfish...so double pox on them.

Edited November 27, 2017 by EmseB

[Murphy101]

Except some people can be thankful for what they did get, of course don't say anything to the host to complain, but also be disappointed that they were forgotten while everyone else enjoyed a full meal.

 

I have actually been in his shoes before (not with food, but with another holiday celebration) and it deeply hurts to feel forgotten or as an afterthought when everyone else is enjoying themselves. It's possible to feel that disappointment, solicit feedback or even gripe about it with other friends, and still realize that one is more blessed than most to receive a small plate of scrapings and one piece of turkey.

 

It doesn't have to be either/or. In fact, being reminded to be thankful when one is forgotten during a major holiday can make a person feel even crappier. Not only were they left out, but feeling bad about it is also wrong and selfish...so double pox on them.

Firstly, I was mainly addressing that many people in this thread seemed unable to comprehend there not being leftovers, and copious amounts of leftovers at that. Given the numbers of working poor and worse in this country, simple math would indicate there are millions of households struggling to put any Thanksgiving feast together, much less one that affords days of leftovers. And yet, they too have family and friends they invite to their tables as best they can.

 

Secondly, he obviously wasn't forgotten because he got plate. All we know is the plate wasn't big enough to him and apparently the hostess, whoever it was, ran out of food. We don't know why any of that happened. So he can either bad mouth everyone about his crappy GF/host or ask straight up what happened and then go get a pizza. For all we know, his plate wasn't actually small, just not overflowing as he'd hoped. I don't think a pox on him, but I do think he is being petty.

[EmseB]

Firstly, I was mainly addressing that many people in this thread seemed unable to comprehend there not being leftovers, and copious amounts of leftovers at that. Given the numbers of working poor and worse in this country, simple math would indicate there are millions of households struggling to put any Thanksgiving feast together, much less one that affords days of leftovers. And yet, they too have family and friends they invite to their tables as best they can.

 

Secondly, he obviously wasn't forgotten because he got plate. All we know is the plate wasn't big enough to him and apparently the hostess, whoever it was, ran out of food. We don't know why any of that happened. So he can either bad mouth everyone about his crappy GF/host or ask straight up what happened and then go get a pizza. For all we know, his plate wasn't actually small, just not overflowing as he'd hoped. I don't think a pox on him, but I do think he is being petty.

 

I guess I just disagree, based on the reading of the OP.  She gave the size of the plate and what was on it and the GF's reasoning for not saving him any food. The host could have had any number of problems that would mean a lack of leftovers and I agree that any griping should not be directed at the host. You say thank you for what you get and move on with your life.

 

However, he was invited by the GF who did not save him any food and told him it was because she thought everyone there should get to eat because they were there even though she was informed ahead of time that he had to work and would be late for dinner. Unless people were specifically telling this girl that she wasn't allowed to save him a plate, she should have done so as the person who invited him to Thanksgiving dinner. It is not petty to be disappointed in this circumstance. AND, all she had to do was say, "Well, if you're going to be late I'm not sure how much food will be left. I can't promise anything."

 

My brother works every Thanksgiving. I can't imagine having a first-come-first-serve attitude about Thanksgiving of all meals.  "Sorry, bro, sucks for you but we ate everything while you were working even though you thought you were coming for dinner. You can scrape out whatever's left in the dishes and the turkey carcass is on the counter.  Don't be petty about it."

Edited November 27, 2017 by EmseB

[Seeking Squirrels]

Firstly, I was mainly addressing that many people in this thread seemed unable to comprehend there not being leftovers, and copious amounts of leftovers at that. Given the numbers of working poor and worse in this country, simple math would indicate there are millions of households struggling to put any Thanksgiving feast together, much less one that affords days of leftovers. And yet, they too have family and friends they invite to their tables as best they can.

 

Secondly, he obviously wasn't forgotten because he got plate. All we know is the plate wasn't big enough to him and apparently the hostess, whoever it was, ran out of food. We don't know why any of that happened. So he can either bad mouth everyone about his crappy GF/host or ask straight up what happened and then go get a pizza. For all we know, his plate wasn't actually small, just not overflowing as he'd hoped. I don't think a pox on him, but I do think he is being petty.

I don't think anyone truly couldn't comprehend it, more just that it is so far from the normal for them that it's not a situation they have encountered for thanksgiving. I was one who posted that we have copious amounts of leftovers. I completely get that not everyone can have such a thanksgiving and we are all incredibly grateful that we can. Actually part of the reason we have such an over-the-top thanksgiving is because my mom and step-dad like to give our family and my brother's family the gift of a few days of good food. We could absolutely not afford to do what they do. My brother's family even less so. But by them "oops, made way too much", they can send us home with leftovers and it's enough that it honestly saves us some money not buying food for those few days. I just wanted to clarify that we are not an over-indulgent family who believes in going overboard and/or wasting food. It all gets eaten and I am grateful for it and reminded of our day together every time I eat from it. 

[Seasider]

Firstly, I was mainly addressing that many people in this thread seemed unable to comprehend there not being leftovers, and copious amounts of leftovers at that. Given the numbers of working poor and worse in this country, simple math would indicate there are millions of households struggling to put any Thanksgiving feast together, much less one that affords days of leftovers. And yet, they too have family and friends they invite to their tables as best they can.

 

Secondly, he obviously wasn't forgotten because he got plate. All we know is the plate wasn't big enough to him and apparently the hostess, whoever it was, ran out of food. We don't know why any of that happened. So he can either bad mouth everyone about his crappy GF/host or ask straight up what happened and then go get a pizza. For all we know, his plate wasn't actually small, just not overflowing as he'd hoped. I don't think a pox on him, but I do think he is being petty.

The only thing we know for sure is that we don't have enough details about the actual event in question!!!

 

So... I keep going back to the fact that the complaining guy was not acting as a polite guest. What if this were a sit down meal at a restaurant? That was planned to take place at say, 1pm, but the guy has to work until 2pm. And he's a casual plus one, not a fiancé or even steady BF. Does the whole family then rearrange their plans to accommodate? What if they can't reschedule the reservation because after all, it's Thanksgiving Day and the place is booked solid?

 

Not so much for this particular issue, but for any other sort of event, there's a kind of standard etiquette:

 

Invitation issued

Invitee politely accepts or declines

RSVP graciously received

 

At no point is it proper etiquette for the invitee to rsvp with, "Thanks, I can't make the invite as issued, but hey, if you change your plans to do abc into my preference of xyz, that would be great, I'd come to that!" Or, "Sorry I can't make that, but I'll send a friend to pick up a to-go box for me!"

 

Ok, before y'all throw tomatoes, of course with my example I am being somewhat facetious, and my example doesn't really match the OP guy's circumstances (or maybe it does, we don't have all the details!!!). I'm just making the point that there's a pattern of etiquette to follow when one is an invitee. Of course if he were a regular part of the group, his availability would have been taken into account during the planning phase, but it doesn't sound like that was the case with OP guy.

 

As a hostess, IF I KNEW someone would be arriving later to an at-my-home meal, of course I would save some food aside if I could. i wouldn't let someone knowingly go hungry. So maybe the gf is at fault for not helping him in some way get a meal. But imo, her behavior and his behavior are two separate issues.

[HS Mom in NC]

Given the many people at the food bank hoping for a turkey, I can easily understand many people don’t have leftovers, and certainly not copious amounts of leftovers. They are mostly glad for a serving and doubly glad if they can manage to share their small portion with family and friends.

 

So the GF didn’t set aside a big plate for him.

He was invited to share with strangers and complained his plate wasn’t big enough.

 

My first thought is some people can’t seem to grasp what giving thanks is supposed to mean.

 

So we're changing the subject now? I don't think a rational person would complain about not getting much if he was eating with poor people who didn't have enough to go around.  Yes, in impoverished circumstances that would be ungrateful, but since there isn't any indication from the OP that this is the situation, people assume a typical Thanksgiving meal in mainstream America and are responding accordingly.  

 

The GF didn't say she didn't save him a plate because they were poor and there was barely enough to go around.  She said she didn't save it because he arrived late. He told her he had to work and he'd be late.  She didn't warn him that he'd be out of luck if that was the case and she didn't warn him when they ran out of food before he got there. It's weird.  Really weird for a typical mainstream American Thanksgiving.

[8circles]

Eh. I don't like how thanksgiving has become a Day of Gluttony.

 

I host Thanksgiving, some guests bring some sides but I do the bulk of it. I specifically try to not have leftovers but we always do. Not copious amounts though.

 

Sounds like the plate could have had more food on it. It's silly to disparage the GF or the host when we don't have any idea what really happened. Teddy has ridiculous ideas about plating food to take home before the meal. That's bizarre.

 

They both sound really immature and I can't fathom why this is such a big deal.

[marbel]

<snip>

 

They both sound really immature and I can't fathom why this is such a big deal.

 

It's a big deal because we (general we, people on this board participating in this discussion) like to talk over / argue about things like this.  For some it's entertainment; for some it's enlightening to see how people's attitudes and practices differ.

 

There is so much we don't know.  For all we know, Bill was quite gracious and understanding to Girlfriend and just bitched about it to his coworkers because that's what some people do.  Maybe he was engaging in hyperbole as he described the situation because that's what some people do.  

[Zinnia]

Not the person you're quoting, and this was not the case in my immediate family, but I have one aunt who insists on hosting her family (kids/grandkids/greatgrandkids) and her siblings' families every year. She is 92 and it's been her "job" since her mother died. She does not plan to stop till she dies. I don't live nearby to attend but everyone else who lives within a reasonable distance goes to her house. I imagine people bring stuff and she doesn't do all the work anymore. But this is what she wants to do and her family is happy to let her.

My mom hosts. She is young (62) and healthy and plans to host for a long time. I would love to host, but I love my mom more, and so we go over there. My great-grandmother hosted at her house until she died, and my mom took over. It skipped my grandmother, though I don't know if by choice or circumstance.

 

The point in which my mom is too old to host is likely the point in which I will have daughter in laws that want to host, and it will skip my generation. I have made peace with that. Mostly.

 

My mom's house is a formal affair with few leftovers. When I was a nurse, we came on Friday one year (worked Thursday night, slept in the car on the way there), expecting food to have been saved. Big nope.

 

Different family cujltures really are different.

[brehon]

How to set aside a plate of food for a working person who will be late:

 

1. Start with your own kitchen, or that of a sympathetic host.

2. Make a plate of foods meant to be eaten hot - turkey, potatoes and gravy, stuffing, green beans, corn. Plastic wrap it, and put it in the fridge.

3. Get out the Tupperware, gladware, or sandwich baggies, or small plates and more cling wrap, and save a portion each of cold foods - cranberry sauce, deviled eggs, pumpkin pie. Put these in the fridge.

4. Save some room temperature stuff - a couple of rolls, some cookies, celery, nuts.

 

When your person arrives, greet them, thank them for working on the holiday, nuke the plate of hot foods, bring out the cold and room temperature foods, and pour the coffee.

Thanks for this. My family is one that can have people working on T-giving, including yours truly. (Though, to be honest, if I’m working, it’s generally for 24 hours as my work schedule is a typical firefighter’s schedule.) My family routinely has people arrive late due to work and we always manage to feed everyone. Or we have the feast on another day.

 

I was reading along a bit bemused that people didn’t understand how that could work.

[8circles]

It's a big deal because we (general we, people on this board participating in this discussion) like to talk over / argue about things like this.  For some it's entertainment; for some it's enlightening to see how people's attitudes and practices differ.

 

There is so much we don't know.  For all we know, Bill was quite gracious and understanding to Girlfriend and just bitched about it to his coworkers because that's what some people do.  Maybe he was engaging in hyperbole as he described the situation because that's what some people do.  

 

Oh, you mean people actually do the thing that I don't understand why people do? And they like to do the thing that I don't understand why people do?

 

Oh, OK. Glad we cleared that up.

[LMV]

I find it interesting how so far in this thread all I've read about is a female person hosting.

 

Why is it that the men in the families aren't hosts for big family dinners?

My husband actually did the bulk of Thanksgiving this year. I worked a physician overnight shift in the ED 11/22 into 11/23. It was a really busy night and pretty much everyone truly needed to actually be in an ED (or ICU). Somehow everyone survived. I left the hospital and went to run a Turkey Trot with our daughters. I came home, showered, and went to sleep. DH did pretty much all of Thanksgiving Dinner except some of the pies I made ahead of time. Also when I got up and felt human again I pulled together a quick spinach lasagna to go along with the rest of the meal (a tribute to my Italian heritage and a kindness to one of my vegetarian colleagues who was joining us). He also supervised the kids (including DD2 and DD5) while I was sleeping. I’m sure he delegated some but I’m still pretty thankful to have him.

Edited November 27, 2017 by LMV

[Murphy101]

My husband hosts far more than I do. And even when I do it, it’s more both of us than just me. These days dh and the kids do at least as much cooking and hosting as I do and often more.

 

And so do most of dh’s friends, other men. In fact, I’m of them owns a catering business, so hosting is literally his business.

 

One of my sons at college and his roommate are always hosting so they can try new recipes. As my son says, “the way to the heart is through the stomach for college women too.†😉

[Murphy101]

We have many family and friends who we set food aside for. But *I* do it if I’m hosting. No one is just wandering through my kitchen packing up bowls full of food for themselves of others later. We don’t usually have many leftovers. Some dessert maybe. But if I know someone is late or can’t be there, I plan to set some food aside before I even serve the food to everyone. We don’t even really have much by way of paper plates and ziplock bags or throw away plastic containers. Most of my leftovers go in glass dishes with sealed lids. I’d have to buy disposable plastic storage bowls and ziplocks and such if people expected to be able to pack up to go food. With people like my kids, no big deal, they bring the glass dish back the next day or next weekend. But someone I’d never met? Um. I’m not keen on never seeing my cook and storage ware again. Not sure how that works.

[unsinkable]

We have many family and friends who we set food aside for. But *I* do it if I’m hosting. No one is just wandering through my kitchen packing up bowls full of food for themselves of others later. We don’t usually have many leftovers. Some dessert maybe. But if I know someone is late or can’t be there, I plan to set some food aside before I even serve the food to everyone. We don’t even really have much by way of paper plates and ziplock bags or throw away plastic containers. Most of my leftovers go in glass dishes with sealed lids. I’d have to buy disposable plastic storage bowls and ziplocks and such if people expected to be able to pack up to go food. With people like my kids, no big deal, they bring the glass dish back the next day or next weekend. But someone I’d never met? Um. I’m not keen on never seeing my cook and storage ware again. Not sure how that works.

Well, according to DH, this guy was pretty adamant that is what they did in his circle. So I'd assume his circle had the necessary "to go" containers, etc.

 

He seemed just as surprised that all people don't do this as the people here are surprised that he (and his family/friends) do(es) this.

[Annie G]

Well, according to DH, this guy was pretty adamant that is what they did in his circle. So I'd assume his circle had the necessary "to go" containers, etc.

 

He seemed just as surprised that all people don't do this as the people here are surprised that he (and his family/friends) do(es) this.

 

While perusing Twitter on Thanksgiving I ran across a LOT of posts about making to go plates.  In some circles it's definitely a thing. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

While perusing Twitter on Thanksgiving I ran across a LOT of posts about making to go plates. In some circles it's definitely a thing.

In our circles to-go plates are standard for any spouse or family member who is unable to come due to illness or work. It’s part of honoring those people who are just as much a part of our circle as those who were able to come.

[Annie G]

In our circles to-go plates are standard for any spouse or family member who is unable to come due to illness or work. It’s part of honoring those people who are just as much a part of our circle as those who were able to come.

 

The Twitter threads I read were take home plates for people who attended the meal.  In many instances it was dinner at grandma's and she makes sure everyone has a plate to take home. That's kind of nice, but no way do I want to make double the food needed!

[Lang Syne Boardie]

The Twitter threads I read were take home plates for people who attended the meal.  In many instances it was dinner at grandma's and she makes sure everyone has a plate to take home. That's kind of nice, but no way do I want to make double the food needed!

 

Oh, my stars and garters. Please don't let this become a thing, or my family will be reduced to lentil soup and a biscuit each, for holiday meals that have to be doubled!

[Sneezyone]

Oh, my stars and garters. Please don't let this become a thing, or my family will be reduced to lentil soup and a biscuit each, for holiday meals that have to be doubled!

It already is a thing for many families, hence the posts.😂

[Lang Syne Boardie]

It already is a thing for many families, hence the posts.😂

LOL *fingers in ears*

[vonfirmath]

Is anyone else reading this thread WHILE eating Thanksgiving leftovers. While I still don’t think this was the GF’s “fault†I’ll admit to never having attended or hosted a Thanksgiving dinner where they ran out of food.

 

I just put away a dish of apple-cranberry crisp.

 

The only Thanksgiving dinner I went to that ran out of food was one that was run as a potluck in our young marrieds class.  We signed up for dishes and then brought them. And the leaders ended up running out to the store to buy food because not NEAR enough food showed up for the people that were eating somehow.

Edited November 28, 2017 by vonfirmath

[vonfirmath]

I dunno....

 

I have posted about our family....most of my posts have been about "our family" and "my parents hosted" and similar wording. 

 

When we lived in our old house, we hosted.  For us, that meant, we made the turkey.  My family brought the other dishes....mom brought the pies and stuffing, sister brought the rolls, I helped DD21 make the sweet potatoes, etc etc.  It was a group effort.

 

 

But sometimes, I suspect that since I am female, and the one posting here...........that comes across as a "female person hosting."

 

Truth is, some years, DH smoked the turkey and I did........nothing.  Except not really.   I would be cleaning, or getting the paper plates for the pies, or whatever. 

 

My point is, I think sometimes on a female dominated board, it comes across as only a "female person hosting" when in fact, DH's are involved, but because the point of view of the posts is from the female, it seems the DH is secondary. 

 

Agreed. DH made almost all of Christmas.I ran to the store for missed supplies. ANd if we had had guests, I would have been the one inviting, cleaning up, making room for, even if DH still did all the food.

[Carrie12345]

I find it interesting how so far in this thread all I've read about is a female person hosting. 

 

Why is it that the men in the families aren't hosts for big family dinners? 

 

In my family, the men do.  (Not my dh, but neither do I, lol.)

 

I tend to default to saying "my aunt" (any of them) because "my aunt and uncle" is a lot longer and... I don't know, I like my aunts a lot better?  I have lots of aunts (including the greats) and few uncles?  I've known my aunts since birth, but not my uncles?  We're a very matriarchal family?