Math disability? Where to start?

[diaperjoys]

Our 11yo son has some pretty tough genes when it comes to math issues. My husband and my husband's father both have a terrible time with anything spacial. For example, they both find reading a tape measure extremely difficult. 

 

Where to start with our son? ADHD, SPD. One of his older brothers is also adhd/spd, and also has trouble with math. Much of what we've done with our 11yo is based off of what has worked for his older brother. 

 

This is where we are now:

 

- Multiplication is hard. Many facts are not memorized. (Also true for older son - we eventually gave him a multiplication chart, and let him keep moving forward.) Xtra Math, copywork, flashcards - clearly not the answer. Huge frustration, almost no progress, same as older brother. He knows 1s, 2s, 5s, 10s, and a smattering of other random facts.

 

Recently discovered he is struggling with "fill in the blank" facts. For example: 1 x ____ = 4, and 8 x _____ = 0. I was astonished when I saw him struggle with those. We have a much bigger problem than I realized. 

 

- We've moved to MUS. The super clear layout helps, and is much better for him than CLE or TT.

 

- We backed up and went through Delta, took longer than anticipated. Fairly successful. He understands the process, and can handle two digit divisors, and several digit dividends. 

 

- Now we're starting Epsilon, and also doing one hard division problem daily, and also one hard addition, subtraction, and multiplication problem. Just to keep building on those skills. 

 

- I just ordered some Right Brain Multiplication Flash Cards for him. He's very visual, and it might be helping. Need a little more time. 

 

- Lesson 1/Day 1 of Epsilon. What is 3/5 of 20? He's supposed to use blocks to figure it out. Oy. Blocks. He stacked them, built pyramids, scattered them with his pencil, dropped them, fiddled with them, played with them. Huge, huge distraction. Finally, we worked through some problems. Along the way we did lots and lots of practice about what the numbers in the fraction mean. I thought he was getting the concept, but he was also frustrated. 

 

Then the book worded the problems a new way. "What is three-fifths of twenty?" He looked at me, with tears in his eyes, and had zero idea what to do. I told him to write it down using numbers. Still no idea what to do. I demonstrated a problem for him, showing each step clearly. Still needed hand holding for each and every number he wrote down. We made it through the next couple problems, but it was way, way, way harder than it should have been.

 

- Lesson 1/Day 2 of Epsilon. This time I asked him to choose his own manipulatives. He brought army men, and, interestingly enough, he didn't play with them, just worked his way through the page. I sat with him and helped when he needed, but he largely functioned on his own.

 

- Lesson 1/Day 3 of Epsilon. Still largely functioning on his own, yet still completely dependent on his manipulative for each and every problem. Handling the manipulatives one by one. For example, if he is finding 1/8 of 16, he counts out 16 manipulatives, then one by one begins eight groups - like he's dealing cards. It is a slow, laborious process, but he is getting the right answers. The problems written in word form are much, much harder. Writing it with numbers helps, and he can do that now, but it still throws him for a loop.

 

Does this kind of math difficulty ring any bells for any of you? We can't afford to do neuropsych testing now, and, honestly, it wasn't all that helpful when we had our older son do it. Insurance will cover an OT, and we're starting that next week - maybe that will give us some ideas to help with focus. 

 

But MATH! What can we do about MATH!!! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lewelma]

I tutor a girl who was in epsilon at age 14, now at age 17 she is preparing for the NZ standardized algebra and geometry exams.  So I know it can be done.

 

First of all, do NOT move away from manipulatives.  Clearly, your son is not ready for abstracting, so don't force it.  Let him decide in a month or two that he is ready to do a problem without his toy men.  Using them right now is absolutely the right thing to do because his conceptual understanding will be way stronger than if you try to abstract before he is ready.

 

 As for word problems, they are hard for some kids.  Really really hard.  For my tutor kid, the ones in the epsilon book were too hard when she was 14.  So I backed her up to word problems in Alpha, and had her redo every word problem up to epsilon before trying the epsilon word problems. Even that was not enough.  I then had her mother rewrite problems from each book Alpha - Delta in a mixed fashion, so 4 a day of different types.  So basically, to get to epsilon word problems she had do do the Alpha through Delta word problems 3 times. You just have to do what you have to do. However, if a kid can master fractions, then he will be well set for algebra, so there is no reason to hurry through this book.  In fact, if you have to hurry, hurry through the decimals book and spend extra time on the fractions book.

 

Tears: No one can learn when they are in tears.  This is something to avoid at all costs.  If the material is too hard, you need to back up until it is easy enough to do without tears.  If he can do epsilon with toy men at half speed without tears then that is fine, but if it is too hard, then I would consider a different program, or focusing on a topic that is not as difficult as fractions, like measurement.  

 

I think that it is critical to make sure your ds is not scared or worried about being behind.  I can turn this kind of attitude around in about 1 -2 months with the kids I work with.  They have to know that they are normal for them. That struggle in math is normal, and to expect it and not fear it.  Other kids might be working on harder problems at a higher level, but they will still struggle. It is not a sign of stupidity. I had a 14 year old school kid who was 3 years behind at least, and by 17 he was taking Calculus.  He thought he was stupid, he was not.  His brain was just not ready for math at a younger age, so we just played catch up from 14-16 doing 2 years of math each year. There are many paths to success, and only one of them moves in lock step with typical grade-level expectations. Embrace homeschooling and tailor the speed of the program to your son.

 

Hope you can find a good path for your ds,

 

Ruth in NZ 

[PeterPan]

I played fraction war where each person turned over two cards. You got to pick numerator and denominator and can say whether greater than one is allowed. Then we found the fraction on the chart/puzzle so he could feel what that fraction felt like. It was tedious and we probably did it a couple months but it worked. So I would ask every time how many parts in your whole (i.e. what is the denominator) and then how many of those parts do you have (i.e. Numerator). Then how much more to one, how much more than me, etc. it gave a real ness to it. And yes then measure a lot with measuring tapes and rulers.

[Pen]

Our 11yo son has some pretty tough genes when it comes to math issues. My husband and my husband's father both have a terrible time with anything spacial. For example, they both find reading a tape measure extremely difficult. 

 

Where to start with our son? ADHD, SPD. One of his older brothers is also adhd/spd, and also has trouble with math. Much of what we've done with our 11yo is based off of what has worked for his older brother. 

 

This is where we are now:

 

- Multiplication is hard. Many facts are not memorized. (Also true for older son - we eventually gave him a multiplication chart, and let him keep moving forward.) Xtra Math, copywork, flashcards - clearly not the answer. Huge frustration, almost no progress, same as older brother. He knows 1s, 2s, 5s, 10s, and a smattering of other random facts.

 

...

- We've moved to MUS. The super clear layout helps, and is much better for him than CLE or TT.

 

- We backed up and went through Delta, took longer than anticipated. Fairly successful. He understands the process, and can handle two digit divisors, and several digit dividends. 

 

- Now we're starting Epsilon, and also doing one hard division problem daily, and also one hard addition, subtraction, and multiplication problem. Just to keep building on those skills. 

 

- I just ordered some Right Brain Multiplication Flash Cards for him. He's very visual, and it might be helping. Need a little more time. 

 

- Lesson 1/Day 1 of Epsilon. What is 3/5 of 20? He's supposed to use blocks to figure it out. Oy. Blocks. He stacked them, built pyramids, scattered them with his pencil, dropped them, fiddled with them, played with them. Huge, huge distraction. Finally, we worked through some problems. Along the way we did lots and lots of practice about what the numbers in the fraction mean. I thought he was getting the concept, but he was also frustrated. 

 

Then the book worded the problems a new way. "What is three-fifths of twenty?" He looked at me, with tears in his eyes, and had zero idea what to do. I told him to write it down using numbers. Still no idea what to do. I demonstrated a problem for him, showing each step clearly. Still needed hand holding for each and every number he wrote down. We made it through the next couple problems, but it was way, way, way harder than it should have been.

 

- Lesson 1/Day 2 of Epsilon. This time I asked him to choose his own manipulatives. He brought army men, and, interestingly enough, he didn't play with them, just worked his way through the page. I sat with him and helped when he needed, but he largely functioned on his own.

 

- Lesson 1/Day 3 of Epsilon. Still largely functioning on his own, yet still completely dependent on his manipulative for each and every problem. Handling the manipulatives one by one. For example, if he is finding 1/8 of 16, he counts out 16 manipulatives, then one by one begins eight groups - like he's dealing cards. It is a slow, laborious process, but he is getting the right answers. The problems written in word form are much, much harder. Writing it with numbers helps, and he can do that now, but it still throws him for a loop.

 

Does this kind of math difficulty ring any bells for any of you? We can't afford to do neuropsych testing now, and, honestly, it wasn't all that helpful when we had our older son do it. Insurance will cover an OT, and we're starting that next week - maybe that will give us some ideas to help with focus. 

 

But MATH! What can we do about MATH!!! 

 

 

I, like you felt frustrated when my ds played with his MUS math blocks instead of doing math with them. In retrospect I think letting him play with them would have been better because it helps build some number, quantity,  and size awareness.

 

What you describe him doing with his own choice of manipulatives for his first 3 days of Epsilon sounds GOOD to me.  

 

Try not to be frustrated that he is going slowly. It sounds like he is learning what he needs to learn, and like MUS is working for him quite well.  Fractions are hard, and are very important for later math and also sciences. Think turtle, not hare.  It is harder and slower than you want it to be, but try to drop the "should" idea, IMO, since it probably makes both of you feel sad and more frustrated, rather than: Thrilled that he is starting to catch on!

 

Are you watching the MUS videos with him?  If not, I recommend doing so, and also perhaps watching Khan Academy or other videos on fractions.

 

Are you following the MUS idea of having your ds show you how to do the problems, use manipulatives and so on?