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Reasons to Consider a Less Selective, Less Expensive College


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I guess the question becomes is it necessary to differentiate between students. If everybody graduates with 4.0 (which seems to be the growing trend), the industry keeps inventing ways to sort kids out. At a high school level it's now the frenzy of gazzilion AP and SAT exams, because those are still scores that really sort kids into buckets. I am not sure what is heppening at the UG level to sort kids wanting to enter grad schools and such.

I sometimes wonder if we had less grade inflation if our kids would be less stressed out because maybe they would be taking fewer exams.

I can write a test for 50% of kids to get a 100 or I can write one when just 10% of the class will get a 100. I am not a cheerleader of the former approach.

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Very, very proud momma brag alert, so be forewarned!! :)   I wanted to add this post here since our ds followed this path. His UG school is not ranked in the top 100. He was blessed with multiple s

Yes, thank you. There is a fallacy that one must attend an elite school to receive quality instruction. I've learned from personal experience that it isn't necessarily true. As others have mentioned y

Please don't quote -- a bit too much personal info   Derek, I know the conversation has moved on, but I was way too busy with university applications to reply to you earlier. I hope our experience i

I guess the question becomes is it necessary to differentiate between students. If everybody graduates with 4.0 (which seems to be the growing trend), the industry keeps inventing ways to sort kids out. At a high school level it's now the frenzy of gazzilion AP and SAT exams, because those are still scores that really sort kids into buckets. I am not sure what is heppening at the UG level to sort kids wanting to enter grad schools and such.

I sometimes wonder if we had less grade inflation if our kids would be less stressed out because maybe they would be taking fewer exams.

I can write a test for 50% of kids to get a 100 or I can write one when just 10% of the class will get a 100. I am not a cheerleader of the former approach.

 

LOR, research experience, job experience, co-ops, etc.  SOme kids go to class and that is it.  Other kids are out there doing things that matter.

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I guess the question becomes is it necessary to differentiate between students. If everybody graduates with 4.0 (which seems to be the growing trend), the industry keeps inventing ways to sort kids out. At a high school level it's now the frenzy of gazzilion AP and SAT exams, because those are still scores that really sort kids into buckets. I am not sure what is heppening at the UG level to sort kids wanting to enter grad schools and such.

I sometimes wonder if we had less grade inflation if our kids would be less stressed out because maybe they would be taking fewer exams.

I can write a test for 50% of kids to get a 100 or I can write one when just 10% of the class will get a 100. I am not a cheerleader of the former approach.

We have a couple of friends who sit on admission committees for medical school.  They have told us that they know which schools have grade inflation and which have grade deflation and adjust the applicants GPA accordingly when evaluating the applicant.  A few years ago someone posted on CC a list that contained many undergrad institutions and the GPA adjustment that was applied by this grad school. (I can't remember which grad school it was)

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I sometimes wonder if we had less grade inflation if our kids would be less stressed out because maybe they would be taking fewer exams.

 

 

Even without the added work of AP exams, etc, I think the grade inflation may be causing additional stress.  If students think they need to get a 4.0 cumulative GPA to get into a "good" college, a single B in a single semester of high school work is a mistake that they can't recover from.  That must weigh heavy upon them.

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We have a couple of friends who sit on admission committees for medical school.  They have told us that they know which schools have grade inflation and which have grade deflation and adjust the applicants GPA accordingly when evaluating the applicant.  A few years ago someone posted on CC a list that contained many undergrad institutions and the GPA adjustment that was applied by this grad school. (I can't remember which grad school it was)

 

The challenge would be for those cases when they 'do not' make such an adjustment. I wouldn't expect that to always occur. Some schools and employers set minimum GPA standards without adjustments. I know our company is one of them regardless of where one went to school. That GPA standard is even higher if an applicant is applying to an area deemed mission critical. And I have heard some grad schools set those non-adjusted standards based upon the program applied to. I'm not saying they shouldn't adjust, just that it does not matter is certain situations. The same concern would be true for Merit based scholarships. The GPA standard is set forth by the policy of the scholarship.

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So maybe there is a reason why we all turn to tests. Testing is more objective and GPA more dependent on schools. I feel bad though for kids taking 6 or 7 tests every year. My friend's senior took 5 AP exams last year and I believe equal number of SAT tests. Nuts.

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Even without the added work of AP exams, etc, I think the grade inflation may be causing additional stress.  If students think they need to get a 4.0 cumulative GPA to get into a "good" college, a single B in a single semester of high school work is a mistake that they can't recover from.  That must weigh heavy upon them.

 

I think this aspect has more to do with existing problems we're seeing at the high school level. If most high school students attending X elite school have a 4.35 GPA, then yes, a 'B' is like a total failure and shameful in some high school circles. There was a post on CC asking a similar question. When did a 3.4 GPA in high school become a negative thing? Was it 10 years ago, maybe 20?

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So maybe there is a reason why we all turn to tests. Testing is more objective and GPA more dependent on schools. I feel bad though for kids taking 6 or 7 tests every year. My friend's senior took 5 AP exams last year and I believe equal number of SAT tests. Nuts.

 

This is 'one' of the reasons we won't be applying to an elite school right out of high school. We simply don't want to play the multiple AP game along with hooks, etc.... The sad part is even for many who do all of that, they can still be rejected by the schools they've jumped through so many hoops to try to impress. Talk about stress and depression. If 'almost' everyone in certain circles believes they should go to an Ivy or equivalent and they don't get in for whatever reason, that can be devastating to their sense of self worth. A 'B' in those cases are very, very bad.

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This is 'one' of the reasons we won't be applying to an elite school right out of high school. We simply don't want to play the multiple AP game along with hooks, etc.... The sad part is even for many who do all of that, they can still be rejected by the schools they've jumped through so many hoops to try to impress. Talk about stress and depression. If 'almost' everyone in certain circles believes they should go to an Ivy or equivalent and they don't get in for whatever reason, that can be devastating to their sense of self worth. A 'B' in those cases are very, very bad.

I agree with the bolded. I refuse to turn my homeschool into a ps equivalent. It isn't why we homeschool. Fwiw, I disagree with "hooks" (though I don't think the term is hooks, more like accomplishments). Kids can accomplish all sorts of things simply bc thatbis what they want to be doing. They don't have to fabricate opportunities. Doing things uniquely them can have high pay offs and be self-satisfying in the process.

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I agree with the bolded. I refuse to turn my homeschool into a ps equivalent. It isn't why we homeschool. Fwiw, I disagree with "hooks" (though I don't think the term is hooks, more like accomplishments). Kids can accomplish all sorts of things simply bc thatbis what they want to be doing. They don't have to fabricate opportunities. Doing things uniquely them can have high pay offs and be self-satisfying in the process.

 

The current mess the public school system is in is one the main reasons we homeschool to begin with. Teaching to the test academically, obsession with n number of APs, cheating, grade inflation, no child left behind, intense peer pressure to get all 'A's, etc... Some well known universities are aware of the current problems and therefore not placing as much weight on things like APs and only giving elective credits for them. 

 

Regarding hooks, I think if a child has a passion then great, explore that passion. But if their extracurricular life is relatively normal for a high school student that's perfectly fine also. Well, at least for those 'not' trying to jump through someone else's hoops just to attempt to impress them in an artificial sort of way. 

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This is 'one' of the reasons we won't be applying to an elite school right out of high school. We simply don't want to play the multiple AP game along with hooks, etc.... The sad part is even for many who do all of that, they can still be rejected by the schools they've jumped through so many hoops to try to impress. Talk about stress and depression. If 'almost' everyone in certain circles believes they should go to an Ivy or equivalent and they don't get in for whatever reason, that can be devastating to their sense of self worth. A 'B' in those cases are very, very bad.

It isn't just elite schools. For those in CA, UCs are the same in terms of admissions. Some CSUs are also the same.

 

For our family it is about educational quality, not the name, although they often go hand in hand. We will absolutely pay top dollar for rigorous education at a small liberal arts school.

My friend's kid came back from a certain UC to CC because of overcrowding. I am looking at affordable options in the state and they all look very impacted. I would rather pay double for quality, but I understand that this is a personal choice. It is worth it for us, so we will have to jump through whatever hoops.

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It isn't just elite schools. For those in CA, UCs are the same in terms of admissions. Some CSUs are also the same.

 

For our family it is about educational quality, not the name, although they often go hand in hand. We will absolutely pay top dollar for small rigorous education at a small liberal arts school.

My friend's kid came back from a certain UC to CC because of overcrowding. I am looking at affordable options in the state and they all look very impacted. I would rather pay double for quality, but I understand that this is a personal choice. It is worth it for us, so we will have to jump through whatever hoops.

 

Yes, in state, affordable and 'not impacted' are very challenging here when combined together. Sometimes something has to give. Pick two of the three, possibly. Or find a compromise which works. For example, UCSC is not as impacted or as large though not as highly ranked as the other famous public Ivys (Cal, UCLA, et al).

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Just reading through this thread and the other one and wanting to pause to offer  :grouphug: .

 

Thank you! She is actually doing so very well now, and I am feeling particularly blessed at the moment. It's funny how life can change so much in three years.

 

I do share our story though, because I have hopes of destigmatizing the illness and perhaps making care more readily accessible. It is such a common problem, but so difficult to treat.

 

Another part of our story is that my mother is severely affected by mental illness, and is in an institution at this point. Mom was full of promise as a young person. Class president, homecoming and prom queen, cheerleader and basketball player; first in her impoverished family in the Deep South to go to college, and graduated in three years with a degree in Microbiology. Her first job was at the Centers for Disease Control. It all went downhill from there.

 

It was a different time though, and my wish was that we would do everything we could to get our daughter the coping skills she would need to deal with this chronic illness. At that point, what she did with that knowledge was up to her, but at least I would know we did what we could at the time when it was likely to benefit her the most. In my opinion it's much easier to help people in their youth.

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Yes, in state, affordable and 'not impacted' are very challenging here when combined together. Sometimes something has to give. Pick two of the three, possibly. Or find a compromise which works. For example, UCSC is not as impacted or as large though not as highly ranked as the other famous public Ivys (Cal, UCLA, et al).

I know that much has changed and UCSC has some wonderful programs, but all I picture when I think of that school is a whole lot of hippies on the lawn smoking pot. 😂😂😂

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I think this aspect has more to do with existing problems we're seeing at the high school level. If most high school students attending X elite school have a 4.35 GPA, then yes, a 'B' is like a total failure and shameful in some high school circles. There was a post on CC asking a similar question. When did a 3.4 GPA in high school become a negative thing? Was it 10 years ago, maybe 20?

I don't think a 3.4 has been common among applicants to elite colleges for a very long time. A 3.4 = 16 Bs and 12 As. One or two Bs actually has very little impact on GPA — it's literally only a few hundredths of a point (1 B out of 28 credits = 3.96, 2 = 3.93). Assuming a student took at least a few honors/AP/DE classes, their weighted GPA will be over 4.0 anyway. I don't think elite colleges consider a difference of a few hundredths of a GPA point to be any more significant that the difference between a 35 and a 36 on the ACT.

 

It's a shame that so many HS students are so obsessed with rankings and with the idea that the only way to get into elite schools is by doing boring things perfectly (5s on tons of APs, 1600/36 on SAT/ACT, etc.) instead of doing really interesting and usual things well and with passion. Especially since the latter is often more successful.

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I don't think a 3.4 has been common among applicants to elite colleges for a very long time. A 3.4 = 16 Bs and 12 As. One or two Bs actually has very little impact on GPA — it's literally only a few hundredths of a point (1 B out of 28 credits = 3.96, 2 = 3.93). Assuming a student took at least a few honors/AP/DE classes, their weighted GPA will be over 4.0 anyway. I don't think elite colleges consider a difference of a few hundredths of a GPA point to be any more significant that the difference between a 35 and a 36 on the ACT.

 

It's a shame that so many HS students are so obsessed with rankings and with the idea that the only way to get into elite schools is by doing boring things perfectly (5s on tons of APs, 1600/36 on SAT/ACT, etc.) instead of doing really interesting and usual things well and with passion. Especially since the latter is often more successful.

 

FWIW, my kid is at a very selective school.  He did take AP exams.  We had a lot of fun with some of the courses.  The two government courses were some of my favorite ever.  He had a mix of 4s and 5s, primarily because he is an excellent essay writer.  He also has high test scores, though not perfect.

 

But he didn't spend his high school years trying to figure out how to get into an elite school.   He did activities that he found meaningful, enjoyable and challenging.  He read a lot.  He hiked and served as a camp staffer.  He moved three times in 4 years.  I would describe his high school years as anything but boring.

 

He wasn't obsessed with getting into an elite school.  He applied to one tippy top selective school, a number of pretty selective (10-20%) schools, and some pretty open state schools.  He was thrilled to the bones with where he was accepted and is attending.  But he was also thrilled with a number of other acceptances and seriously weighed the pros and cons of 2-3 schools before choosing where his is now.

 

I think that I'm probably agreeing with the point you are trying to make.  The classmates of his that I've met are anything but boring.  They are mostly incredibly talented and interesting people.  DS was also tickled by people he met at one of the other schools he toured.  He came back describing how incredible he thought the other students were.

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I know that much has changed and UCSC has some wonderful programs, but all I picture when I think of that school is a whole lot of hippies on the lawn smoking pot. 😂😂😂

 

I know that is what comes to a lot folks minds who know the area, remember the 60s/70s and some of the protests. But when you actually look at all the academics and research they are doing its really cool stuff. We visited the campus including the Baskin school of Engineering are were impressed with it overall. Though it was just a short visit. I'd like to take another trip to sit in on some classes, etc...

 

Speaking of stigmas, UC Berkeley is another that falls into that category especially given the recent protests, riots, etc... Still, that doesn't take away from the quality of their academic programs nor the research being conducted. Not every student is out there going crazy in the streets. lol  :tongue_smilie:

 

After reading fairly extensively about it and hearing from both alumni and employers, students haven't been negatively affected by those notions. Many have gone to do great things without hindrances.

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The challenge would be for those cases when they 'do not' make such an adjustment. I wouldn't expect that to always occur. Some schools and employers set minimum GPA standards without adjustments. I know our company is one of them regardless of where one went to school. That GPA standard is even higher if an applicant is applying to an area deemed mission critical. And I have heard some grad schools set those non-adjusted standards based upon the program applied to. I'm not saying they shouldn't adjust, just that it does not matter is certain situations. The same concern would be true for Merit based scholarships. The GPA standard is set forth by the policy of the scholarship.

Yes we normally use 3.0 minimum for all schools but we know that 3.2 at college X is higher than 3.4 at college Y.

I recently argued for a candidate with a 2.9 because he had good coursework and project and he worked while going to college.

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It isn't just elite schools. For those in CA, UCs are the same in terms of admissions. Some CSUs are also the same.

 

For our family it is about educational quality, not the name, although they often go hand in hand. We will absolutely pay top dollar for rigorous education at a small liberal arts school.

My friend's kid came back from a certain UC to CC because of overcrowding. I am looking at affordable options in the state and they all look very impacted. I would rather pay double for quality, but I understand that this is a personal choice. It is worth it for us, so we will have to jump through whatever hoops.

 

Does UC or CSU have anything like SUNY Geneseo which rates quite well with the typical Northeast liberal arts colleges.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_University_of_New_York_at_Geneseo

https://www.niche.com/colleges/suny-geneseo/

 

It is medium size 5000 not small.

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FWIW, my kid is at a very selective school.  He did take AP exams.  We had a lot of fun with some of the courses.  The two government courses were some of my favorite ever.  He had a mix of 4s and 5s, primarily because he is an excellent essay writer.  He also has high test scores, though not perfect.

 

But he didn't spend his high school years trying to figure out how to get into an elite school.   He did activities that he found meaningful, enjoyable and challenging.  He read a lot.  He hiked and served as a camp staffer.  He moved three times in 4 years.  I would describe his high school years as anything but boring.

 

He wasn't obsessed with getting into an elite school.  He applied to one tippy top selective school, a number of pretty selective (10-20%) schools, and some pretty open state schools.  He was thrilled to the bones with where he was accepted and is attending.  But he was also thrilled with a number of other acceptances and seriously weighed the pros and cons of 2-3 schools before choosing where his is now.

 

I think that I'm probably agreeing with the point you are trying to make.  The classmates of his that I've met are anything but boring.  They are mostly incredibly talented and interesting people.  DS was also tickled by people he met at one of the other schools he toured.  He came back describing how incredible he thought the other students were.

 

I definitely wasn't implying that only boring kids with tons of APs and perfect test scores get into elite schools — quite the opposite. I think kids who believe that the ONLY way to get in is to basically sacrifice 4 years of their lives doing the maximum number of APs, maintaining a 4.8 GPA, and spending every spare moment in test prep to maximize SAT scores, are very much mistaken and may find themselves passed over in favor of kids with lower numbers who are more interesting and passionate.

 

It reminds me of the girl who published a snarky essay a couple of years ago after being totally devastated when she was rejected by all the elite schools she applied to. She was extremely bitter that she'd worked so hard, doing everything she thought she was supposed to do, and it wasn't enough. The list of her accomplishments was impressive, but nothing out of the ordinary. She was very good at all of the things that most students do (the usual honors/AP courses, high GPA & test scores, varsity athlete) but didn't have anything that really set her apart from the thousands of other middle-class girls from NJ who were applying to Ivies.

 

Another cautionary tale about the pursuit of perfection for the sole purpose of admissions is the kid who was rejected by MIT not because he lacked perfect SAT scores, but precisely because he had them — he took the SAT three times, having gotten 1590 the first two times, which was a real turn-off to the adcoms. Maybe he should have been thinking more about what the kids who got in with scores in the 1400s had that made their test scores less important, and focus on those characteristics. In fact, I'd say that's good advice for any kid who is looking at elite schools — instead of obsessing about a 4.5 GPA or 1600 SAT scores, look at what the kids in the bottom 25% of admitted students were doing that made them stand out enough to be admitted.

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I definitely wasn't implying that only boring kids with tons of APs and perfect test scores get into elite schools — quite the opposite.

 

Gotcha.  

 

Something my son has commented on is that a number of his friends at school are all a bit bemused to find themselves there.  I think he's not the only one who was a bit shocked at the acceptance letter.

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 instead of obsessing about a 4.5 GPA or 1600 SAT scores, look at what the kids in the bottom 25% of admitted students were doing that made them stand out enough to be admitted.

 

Is there any way to determine what this is, other than anecdotally?

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I know that much has changed and UCSC has some wonderful programs, but all I picture when I think of that school is a whole lot of hippies on the lawn smoking pot. 😂😂😂

 

Think again.  I know some pretty serious students who graduated there.  

 

I will always remember the beautiful trees and dirt paths between buildings.  It ain't called Uncle Charlie's Summer Camp for nothing.  

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I know that much has changed and UCSC has some wonderful programs, but all I picture when I think of that school is a whole lot of hippies on the lawn smoking pot. 😂😂😂

UCSC is still famous for their annual Pot Day

 

“And even though Prop 64 passed, which legalized adult use of marijuana in California, officers said UCSC is a federally funded institution, and cannabis is still illegal under the law.

 

“We realize and recognize that although we might not be able to talk to everybody or cite everybody,†Oweis said. “We are going to do our best to make sure everyone is safe on this campus.â€

 

This time around, there will be about 100 officers from various agencies on patrol and guarding a DUI checkpoint.

 

All this police activity tomorrow is costing the school $100,000, that many say could be used for other things.â€

http://www.kion546.com/news/uc-santa-cruz-gets-ready-for-420/455256262

 

ETA:

Unrelated to UCSC; if your child has tree allergy check if the trees on campus would cause a nasty allergy reaction. For example, I avoid cherry blossoms and some shrubs if possible.

Edited by Arcadia
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Yes, she will go back. It's UCSD.

 

What's going at SD?  Is it housing, or not enough sections of classes?  Too big classes?  

 

Wasn't it UCI that admitted too many students, then rejected them, then admitted them again?  I wonder how that campus is coping?   Such a mess.  

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What's going at SD? Is it housing, or not enough sections of classes? Too big classes?

 

Wasn't it UCI that admitted too many students, then rejected them, then admitted them again? I wonder how that campus is coping? Such a mess.

Apparently all of it. She said it felt like she was paying to self study. Way too many kids in the classroom. I believe they are also having housing issues and are trying to pay kids to live off campus. She felt she could get the first two years at a CC cheaper and get more attention from teachers. She plans to go back.

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UCSC is still famous for their annual Pot Day

 

“And even though Prop 64 passed, which legalized adult use of marijuana in California, officers said UCSC is a federally funded institution, and cannabis is still illegal under the law.

 

“We realize and recognize that although we might not be able to talk to everybody or cite everybody,†Oweis said. “We are going to do our best to make sure everyone is safe on this campus.â€

 

This time around, there will be about 100 officers from various agencies on patrol and guarding a DUI checkpoint.

 

All this police activity tomorrow is costing the school $100,000, that many say could be used for other things.â€

http://www.kion546.com/news/uc-santa-cruz-gets-ready-for-420/455256262

 

ETA:

Unrelated to UCSC; if your child has tree allergy check if the trees on campus would cause a nasty allergy reaction. For example, I avoid cherry blossoms and some shrubs if possible.

 

Arcadia, there is nothing about '4/20 Day' that is unique to UCSC. It's actually celebrated across the nation on 'many' college campuses, city parks, etc...

 

Let's face reality, pot is everywhere including all of our top campuses. In fact, according to one survey students smoke more pot at UCSB, UCLA, UC Berkeley, Virginia Tech, Brown, Princeton and Yale than at UCSC. Its just an old stereotype that is not unique at all to UCSC compared to countless others which most parents have no problem sending their kids to. 

 

Regarding the trees, yes, they are plentiful on campus, especially the redwoods. I can see how someone with tree allergies would have to be careful. Though I've never heard of anyone with allergies to redwoods, I'm sure its possible. I didn't see any cherry blossom there. I don't think they're native to the area.

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Apparently all of it. She said it felt like she was paying to self study. Way too many kids in the classroom. I believe they are also having housing issues and are trying to pay kids to live off campus. She felt she could get the first two years at a CC cheaper and get more attention from teachers. She plans to go back.

 

Its pretty bad at UCSD and UCI. I have friends and family members attempting to get their classes to graduate. Many are having problems completing their 4 year degrees in 5 which is the limit the schools will allow. Here's one article talking about the population explosion on these campuses which are continuing to bloat in size: Tidal wave of enrollment hits UC San Diego, UC Irvine.

 

At some point you have to ask if its really worth it with programs which are this impacted. Apparently thousands of students still think it is. 

Edited by dereksurfs
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Let's face reality, pot is everywhere including all of our top campuses. In fact, according to one survey students smoke more pot at UCSB, UCLA, UC Berkeley, Virginia Tech, Brown, Princeton and Yale than at UCSC.

We have people smoking pot in their cars on US101 and I880. Besides my kids eliminated UCs for other reasons and we have visited UCDavis, UCSF, UCB, UCSC, UCI, UCSB, UCLA, UCSD so far. We haven’t visit UCRiverside and UCMerced. My kids aren’t keen on East Coast either so Princeton, Yale, Brown and Virginia Tech are out. They aren’t interested in MIT and Harvard either regardless of ranking of drug use.

 

ETA:

Heavy sports culture is definitely out. My kids didn’t have a good impression of frat houses either.

Edited by Arcadia
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Its pretty bad at UCSD and UCI. I have friends and family members attempting to get their classes to graduate. Many are having problems completing their 4 year degrees in 5 which is the limit the schools will allow. Here's one article talking about the population explosion on these campuses which are continuing to bloat in size: Tidal wave of enrollment hits UC San Diego, UC Irvine.

 

At some point you have to ask if its really worth it with programs which are this impacted. Apparently thousands of students still think it is.

I am surprised Davis and UCSC aren't having the same issues.

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Arcadia, there is nothing about '4/20 Day' that is unique to UCSC. It's actually celebrated across the nation on 'many' college campuses, city parks, etc...

 

Let's face reality, pot is everywhere including all of our top campuses.

 

Youngest son's college regularly ranks in the Top 10 for Reefer Madness according to Princeton Review.  I just checked on 2017.  #4!

 

http://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Princeton-Review-Colleges-with-the-most-reefer-11744545.php

 

Amazingly enough, no one in our family cares to use it (even if it were legal) and he still enjoys the college - even has non-using peers.

 

I know being in the Top 10 for that category would turn many off.  He's thankful we didn't let it sway our opinion as it was his #1 choice - and only school he applied to.

 

So much depends upon the personality involved with the kids.

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... and he still enjoys the college - even has non-using peers.

But, didn't it take over a semester for him to find some peers? I seem to remember a rough first semester with partying roommate and classmates who were openly hostile to his clean living.

 

Eta: I think I am thinking of this thread. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/536668-end-of-semester-report/

Edited by RootAnn
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Youngest son's college regularly ranks in the Top 10 for Reefer Madness according to Princeton Review.  I just checked on 2017.  #4!

 

http://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Princeton-Review-Colleges-with-the-most-reefer-11744545.php

 

Amazingly enough, no one in our family cares to use it (even if it were legal) and he still enjoys the college - even has non-using peers.

 

I know being in the Top 10 for that category would turn many off.  He's thankful we didn't let it sway our opinion as it was his #1 choice - and only school he applied to.

 

So much depends upon the personality involved with the kids.

 

Yes, I've been hearing something similar from some of the students at UCSC. Some of them have no interest in smoking pot and find other like minded students to hang out with, study, etc... There's just no getting around the fact that it will be present and so they'll get somewhat accustomed to in the dorms and around the campus. I've heard different dorms definitely have their own personalities, some more into the larger party scene, etc... Off campus can also be a good option for students if a group of friends can share a place with similar preferences such as no pot in the house. In our case, there is even the possibility of commuting.

Edited by dereksurfs
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But, didn't it take over a semester for him to find some peers? I seem to remember a rough first semester with partying roommate and classmates who were openly hostile to his clean living.

 

Eta: I think I am thinking of this thread. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/536668-end-of-semester-report/

 

Oh definitely.  His first semester was rough adjusting especially due to his roommate at that time.  That lad was downright mean - locking him out of his own dorm and similar things.  Fortunately, changing roommates and getting involved in clubs was all it took.  His first roommate never could room with anyone else.  His second one became a nice buddy - even though the second one parties and my guy doesn't.  He found his like minded peers in the clubs.

 

Had things not changed, we'd have certainly let him come home and transfer somewhere else to find a better fit.  I also doubt I'd have been singing their praises right now, but my opinion reflect's my guy's.  He loves it there and will be graduating this May.  ;)

 

On a different note, in hindsight, I'm glad he was able to work through his situation taking our advice for changes.  It did require our giving him advice.  It wasn't anything that came naturally to him at that time as he was used to his friend group here at home.  If we'd ever had him tested, I'm also pretty sure he'd be on the Aspie scale based upon other students I know, so extra "social" guidance and teaching was also needed throughout his life.  But still, if it hadn't worked, we'd have been fine with him transferring.  A place isn't always what one dreams about.  There's no shame in that.

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Yes, this is going to be true of any university, and I’d include even the more religious based ones, to a certain degree.

Pot will be readily found for the asking. The same for hard drugs, even.

We have pot-laced brownies issues even in elementary schools here so parents are well aware. My younger kid has a harder time with the state law being different from federal law, it would be harder for him to remember that schools (kindergarten to college) can choose to enforce federal law even though they usually turn a blind eye.

 

He is already annoyed at smokers who smoke in smoke free areas and not all smokers take kindly to someone giving them a disgusted look. We are trying to teach this kid to be much more street smart.

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We have pot-laced brownies issues even in elementary schools here so parents are well aware. My younger kid has a harder time with the state law being different from federal law, it would be harder for him to remember that schools (kindergarten to college) can choose to enforce federal law even though they usually turn a blind eye.

 

He is already annoyed at smokers who smoke in smoke free areas and not all smokers take kindly to someone giving them a disgusted look. We are trying to teach this kid to be much more street smart.

 

This is part of the craziness in our schools which do not reflect professional life once one graduates and starts their job. Can you imagine your coworkers smoking weed and selling drugs to each other during the break? At least for most workplaces this is not common due to corporate policies on drug use, etc... In fact many jobs require drug testing. Yet we have elementary school (and college) behaviors occurring regularly which are totally unacceptable in the common workplace. I'm not at all saying adults don't engage in drug use, alcoholism, smoking pot, etc... Its just not as open, celebrated and in one's face as it is while growing up and going to school. At least its not in most professional environments. Something is wrong with this picture. 

Edited by dereksurfs
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This is part of the craziness in our schools which do not reflect professional life once one graduates and starts their job. Can you imagine your coworkers smoking weed and selling drugs to each other during the break? At least for most workplaces this in not common due to corporate policies on drug use, etc... In fact many jobs require drug testing. Yet we have elementary school (and college) behaviors occurring regularly which are totally unacceptable in the common workplace. I'm not at all saying adults don't engage in drug use, alcoholism, smoking pot, etc... Its just not as open, celebrated and in one's face as it is while growing up and going to school. At least its not in most professional environments. Something is wrong with this picture.

Weeelllll, maybe not selling and smoking during breaks, but a big chunk of my coworkers smoked and everybody knew who did, and parties weren't drug free either.. Drug testing never seems to occur at places where everybody has at least a masters degree, or at least that has been my experience. ☹ï¸

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Weeelllll, maybe not selling and smoking during breaks, but a big chunk of my coworkers smoked and everybody knew who did, and parties weren't drug free either.. Drug testing never seems to occur at places where everybody has at least a masters degree, or at least that has been my experience. ☹ï¸

 

Or people are smart enough to know how to (usually) avoid getting caught -- even when there is testing. Add to that lunchtime drinking (or excessive drinking in general), prescription drug abuse, etc...  Professions are not immune. These issues aren't isolated to the schoolyard or campus.

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I'm curious to know how summer programs correlate to actual experiences on campus. My teen has been to several summer camps at various campuses with varying levels of selectivity and cost (both for the camps and for the colleges/universities where the camps took place). The differences have been striking. I'm aware that this is anecdotal and somewhat subjective, but I'm interested in hearing about the perceptions and experiences of others. Does a summer camp give a good reflection of college life at the school?

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Or people are smart enough to know how to (usually) avoid getting caught -- even when there is testing. Add to that lunchtime drinking (or excessive drinking in general), prescription drug abuse, etc...  Professions are not immune. These issues aren't isolated to the schoolyard or campus.

 

Yes, however, my main point is its just not as in one's face nor does it interface their lives daily in the workplace unless they choose to engage in those things themselves. While on school campuses its a totally different thing especially since kids are forced to 'dorm' together when living on campus. There is a lot of peer pressure in those environments which many students alike would rather not engage in. Include in that the elementary playground which is both ridiculous and reality for many. 

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Does a summer camp give a good reflection of college life at the school?

Usually no. Summer camp tend to be restricted to one part of the campus. The campers are also herded everywhere generally and not wandering around the vast campus. Also most college students aren’t doing summer term due to internships and other reasons. SJSU for example is a lot more peaceful during summer term.

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The whole idea of dorms and being forced to live with a total stranger is beyond my comprehension. (Been there, done that ---don't ever want to do it again.) So, yes dorms are a different scenario.  Also, maturity plays a role in how we react to various situations. Still, these are significant issues in many workplaces. 

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Weeelllll, maybe not selling and smoking during breaks, but a big chunk of my coworkers smoked and everybody knew who did, and parties weren't drug free either.. Drug testing never seems to occur at places where everybody has at least a masters degree, or at least that has been my experience. ☹ï¸

 

I guess it really depends where one works. I don't think graduate degrees have anything to do with it. I speak from personal experience in working with Masters and PhDs in their fields. Its more about the corporate policies, state, federal regulations, compliance, etc... Even in those corporate cultures which are more of a 'party' environment, it shouldn't impact the lives of those who work there and don't partake.

 

ETA: I've always worked in environments which have a low tolerance for drugs in the workplace. And even the startups and mid sized companies I've worked for had high standards. That's not to say they didn't have holiday parties with some folks having a little too much to drink, etc... It just never was an issue while working, not even once can I think of a time. I certainly never smelled pot on lunch break,etc... I would think its like that in many professional environments. Could you imagine visiting a relative while in the hospital after surgery and then seeing their doctor smoking weed on break! haha  :tongue_smilie:

Edited by dereksurfs
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Usually no. Summer camp tend to be restricted to one part of the campus. The campers are also herded everywhere generally and not wandering around the vast campus. Also most college students aren’t doing summer term due to internships and other reasons. SJSU for example is a lot more peaceful during summer term.

 

Right. I guess I mean on a broader scale -- the type of students the camp/school attracts, the organization of the program, the quality of instruction, etc. 

 

Most programs are run by an organization in a separate department or perhaps not even part of the school, but professors or students often participate in some way.

 

(ETA: Just a note that at some camps the students in upper grades are often given much more freedom to roam around the campus and even surrounding areas.)

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I guess it really depends where one works. I don't think graduate degrees have anything to do with it. I speak from personal experience in working with Masters and PhDs in their fields. Its more about the corporate policies, state, federal regulations, compliance, etc... Even in those corporate cultures which are more of a 'party' environment, it shouldn't impact the lives of those who work there and don't partake.

 

Shouldn't being the key word.  Unfortunately, even when there isn't a "party" environment -- think local hospital -- lives are absolutely affected, the lives of coworkers and others. I've watched professional and personal lives crumble due in part to a hidden workplace drug culture. Also, pressure can still be there, although it may present differently.

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I guess it really depends where one works. I don't think graduate degrees have anything to do with it. I speak from personal experience in working with Masters and PhDs in their fields. Its more about the corporate policies, state, federal regulations, compliance, etc... Even in those corporate cultures which are more of a 'party' environment, it shouldn't impact the lives of those who work there and don't partake.

 

ETA: I've always worked in environments which have a low tolerance for drugs in the workplace. And even the startups and mid sized companies I've worked for had high standards. That's not to say they didn't have holiday parties with some folks having a little too much to drink, etc... It just never was an issue while working, not even once can I think of a time. I certainly never smelled pot on lunch break,etc... I would think its like that in many professional environments. Could you imagine visiting a relative while in the hospital after surgery and then seeing their doctor smoking weed on break! haha :tongue_smilie:

Government employers, teachers, docs.... a bit different. Absolutely corporate culture matters. It's hit and miss.

I will tell you though that I felt a lot of pressure not partying with them. I was too busy with too many kids at home, not so much because of my morals. 😋

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Shouldn't being the key word.  Unfortunately, even when there isn't a "party" environment -- think local hospital -- lives are absolutely affected, the lives of coworkers and others. I've watched professional and personal lives crumble due in part to a hidden workplace drug culture. Also, pressure can still be there, although it may present differently.

 

Yes, sure, drugs affect adults everywhere. And even in environments where there are strict policies folks get into serious trouble including losing their jobs. The main difference, as I mentioned,is that its not in your face like it is on school campuses. Does it occur after hours, behind closed doors, hidden, as you mentioned? Sure. But if you're not actively engaged with those things it won't affect your daily work. That's not saying it won't affect your co-worker who is addicted to drugs, etc... So if that is the case and you rely on them to do a good jobs it can still screw things up. I know one guy who worked for the Gov't and lost his security clearance due to drug use, for example. Drugs and alcohol are a serious matter in the workplace, just on a different level with different consequences (e.g. caught intoxicated or stoned while performing surgery).

Edited by dereksurfs
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