Religious questions from an atheist

[MotherGoose]

Re: evidence for God and why he doesn't just show himself...this is the best idea I have, give to me by a Priest. (I'm Catholic, but this idea is non-denominational). God wants us to seek Him, to want Him. He could definitely make us all believe, but He wants to have a relationship with us, and relationships are governed by choice. You choose your spouse and your friends. He wants us to choose Him, and to enable that, He puts within us a deep desire for Him, or for something larger. He wants us to CHOOSE to love Him and to follow Him.

[Rosie_0801]

 Atheists see death as tragic.

 

Not necessarily. I've come to see it as one of the best "inventions" ever.

[Rosie_0801]

Yep. There are all kinds of reasons why some might not consider various gods worthy of worship (though we're probably talking about the Judeo-Christian-Muslim god in this thread aren't we?).

 

But a god's existence ultimately comes down to the fact no god has ever shown himself or herself to anyone other than (supposedly) the original prophets of said religion and god belief.

 

I had a dream about an Ancient Egyptian death goddess once, when I didn't even know there was one. That was weird. But I stayed an atheist anyhow.

[Seeking Squirrels]

These are some of the questions I started asking myself when I was still christian. After being there for a while, I came to believe that any god who may exist was not one who intervened in daily life. No healing or helping, no watching over everything, no personal relationship. He would be bigger scale than that and not care what I thought or did or believed. But I couldn't at that time bring myself to denounce the presence of a god, that still felt too scary. But it only took about 1 week of being in my place of believing in a greater deity that was not involved in our lives to seeing that there was no evidence whatsoever even for this sort of deity. I expanded my reading material and quickly realized I was atheist. 

[Bluegoat]

I have to say, I never understand the 'all things were created, so God' argument. Turtles all the way down ?

 

Nor do I understand or appreciate the 'oh, you want God to be vending machine' argument. Nope. I just don't get how a benevolent, powerful God allows Jewish babies to be used by Nazi guards as footballs in concentration camps. 

 

Free will - well, there's plenty of evidence from psychology that our will is less free and more determined than we might imagine. 

 

Christianity hasn't typically said we have an entirely free will.  Maybe not that free at all, much of the time.  A lot of practical religious practice is directed to making it more free than it would be otherwise.

 

Most people seem to think turtles all the way down is illogical?

[barnwife]

Re: evidence for God and why he doesn't just show himself...this is the best idea I have, give to me by a Priest. (I'm Catholic, but this idea is non-denominational). God wants us to seek Him, to want Him. He could definitely make us all believe, but He wants to have a relationship with us, and relationships are governed by choice. You choose your spouse and your friends. He wants us to choose Him, and to enable that, He puts within us a deep desire for Him, or for something larger. He wants us to CHOOSE to love Him and to follow Him.

 

This is covered in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church paragraphs 27 and 28 (section title A Desire for God) if anyone wants to read the Catholic stance.

 

I don't have time to post more about my own thoughts now, but hopefully posting this will remind me to come back.

 

 

[Bluegoat]

I also find Taoism (well, I don't know about the religious ritual part of it, but certainly the Tao Te Ching) a way to access spirituality and the idea of god without necessarily having to reconcile the ideas and realities of more literal, concrete religions. 

 

In fact, the first verse goes:

Tao called Tao is not Tao.  Names can name no lasting name.

Nameless: the origin of heaven and earth. Naming: the mother of ten thousand things.

Empty of desire, perceive mystery. Filled with desire, perceive manifestations. These have the same source, but different names.

Call them both deep - Deep and again deep: the gateway to all mystery.

 

You might find pseudo-Dionysius an author to try, if this sort o thing appeals to you.

 

 

The higher we soar in contemplation, the more limited become our expressions of that which is purely intelligible; even as now, when plunging into the Darkness which is above the intellect, we pass not merely into brevity of speech, but even into absolute silence, of thoughts as well as of words ... and, according to the degree of transcendence, so our speech is restrained until, the entire ascent being accomplished, we become wholly voiceless, inasmuch as we are absorbed in Him who is totally ineffable.

 

..

 

In diligent exercise of mystical contemplation, leave behind the senses and the operations of the intellect, and all things sensible and intellectual, and all things in the world of being and non-being, that you may arise by unknowing towards the union, as far as is attainable, with Him who transcends all being and all knowledge. For by the unceasing and absolute renunciation of yourself and of all things you may be borne on high, through pure and entire self-abnegation, into the superessential Radiance of the Divine Darkness.

[Chris in VA]

You all are far wiser and eloquent than I am. 

I am a Christian who is just resting in my relationship with God at the moment. I am struggling to come to terms with salvation and the need for Christ--because my brother died last month without believing. At least, he died without believing out loud. To think him condemned forever is beyond hard. I am not a "narrow Calvinist," i.e. one who believes some are created for destruction. Frankly, I don't know an awful lot. But I am not going to trade what I do know for the insecurity of what I don't. 

 

One thing has helped. I stopped seeing belief as equal to intellectual assent, and started seeing it as "putting one's trust in." I don't have to feel it. I don't have to explain it (and I've always said that I couldn't worship someone I saw as my equal--totally understandable--that's just not big enough for me). I can say, "I don't know." My husband (Episcopal priest) says he knows how to have eternal life, but he doesn't know how not to. Kinda beyond our pay grade as humans, I think, and he seems to think, too. 

 

As to why Jesus didn't just reveal all...or why (as others have asked) God just doesn't boom out his existence in a giant flash--I just think, Hmm. He came to earth, lived here, taught here, rose from the dead, had people who were witnesses tell the stories--and it still wasn't enough. I'm sure if something like that happened now, people would think it an illusion, a trick, or whatever. THere is no proof that would ever be enough. 

 

I'm sorry, OP, that you are feeling distress. Questions of faith can shake you to the core, and be beyond uncomfortable to downright painful. I know--been there recently, bought the tee shirt. You can choose--you can choose to keep asking,you can choose to give up in despair and quit asking, you can be quiet and let the questions wash over you and just sit in the I-don't-know-ness. But you get to choose. Hopefully someone will come beside you in your choosing and be with you. And that can be of God, too. Or not. <3 

[MercyA]

It's always interesting to me when people say things like, "God must be like 'x', or He does not exist," or "If God is like 'y,' I can't believe in Him," or "If there is a God, He would surely do 'z'." 

 

When it comes to God's existence, it truly doesn't matter what we think He should do or what we think He should be. He either exists or He doesn't. If He does, He is Who He is, not who we would make Him to be.

 

Of course we can choose whether or not to seek Him and ultimately whether or not to serve Him. It seems that's the way He wants it, and who can blame Him?

 

OP, I sympathize. It always seemed that faith came so easily for other people, but that I couldn't make myself believe in the same way. For me, it was a long, hard struggle to faith.

 

The starting place for me was: do I believe in a Creator? And, honestly, that was never really in doubt for me. The chances of all this happening--of even eyeballs, or butterflies, or a million other little things existing--by chance are statistically impossible. "...Since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

 

I also believed that God is knowable. I saw His work very clearly in other people's lives; I knew they knew Him and I wanted to know Him, too.

 

I clung to Scriptures like:

 

"You will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."

"...the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."

 

Like the father in Luke 9, I prayed over and over, "Lord, I believe, help my unbelief." I thought of the words of Peter, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." I determined, like Chris, to trust Christ, in spite of all my limitations and the weakness of my faith.

 

Still, I lacked peace. I lacked assurance. The breakthrough came when I was forced to deal with a particular long-term sin that I had been unwilling to confess and put aside. I'm not saying that everyone who seeks God and finds it difficult to find Him has some sin in their life; not at all!!! But for *me*, once everything was "uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account"--and I finally dealt with it and determined to do whatever God asked of me in that area----the assurance came like a flood. God also graciously allowed me to see some workings of the spiritual world, and that greatly solidified my faith. I think He knew I needed that.

 

I do believe that for "the one who diligently seeks Him," He will provide whatever they need for their faith to be strengthened. The advice I would give any seeker is to be willing to accept that God is Who He is and that He may ask things that are painful. Also, I would encourage them to read the New Testament. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." 

 

I don't know if I should post this. There are a lot of people here wiser than me! I'm definitely not looking for a debate. But OP, I just encourage you to keep seeking. It is worth it. 

[eternalsummer]

Here's an idea: for me, some of the only concrete evidence for the existence of God (and I still don't believe in a concrete God in the Sky, so take from this what you will) is the Fermi Paradox.  

 

A lot of people say life and Earth and humanity and etc. are so complex and beautiful and amazing that there must be a Creator.  Others argue no, it all came about by a process of development combined with chance, etc.

 

Well, for me, the question is - if we're not unique, if the Earth and people and animals and the whole system here wasn't Created, then where is everyone else?  Where are the aliens?

 

Now, my favorite answer to the Fermi Paradox - the one I find most likely - is that when intelligent beings get to a certain level of development, society collapses and they go back to a pre-technological society before they can get out of their own solar systems.  I think we're nearing that point.

 

 

But I'm willing to entertain the notion that maybe the answer to where are the aliens is there are no aliens because we are unique in the universe; if we are unique in the universe I can't really see any explanation for that, scientifically, which leads to the idea of something inexplicable by science as our origin.

[Bluegoat]

Here's an idea: for me, some of the only concrete evidence for the existence of God (and I still don't believe in a concrete God in the Sky, so take from this what you will) is the Fermi Paradox.  

 

A lot of people say life and Earth and humanity and etc. are so complex and beautiful and amazing that there must be a Creator.  Others argue no, it all came about by a process of development combined with chance, etc.

 

Well, for me, the question is - if we're not unique, if the Earth and people and animals and the whole system here wasn't Created, then where is everyone else?  Where are the aliens?

 

Now, my favorite answer to the Fermi Paradox - the one I find most likely - is that when intelligent beings get to a certain level of development, society collapses and they go back to a pre-technological society before they can get out of their own solar systems.  I think we're nearing that point.

 

 

But I'm willing to entertain the notion that maybe the answer to where are the aliens is there are no aliens because we are unique in the universe; if we are unique in the universe I can't really see any explanation for that, scientifically, which leads to the idea of something inexplicable by science as our origin.

 

That's interesting.  I think quite a lot of religious people think there probably are aliens, so I'd have not have guessed that was important for some.  I wonder though if it speaks to a kind of inter-planetary bias?

 

FWIW this issue of complexity and being planned is kind of a popular watered down version of an argument from order, which is really about a First Principle.  What it says is that there s a logical or rational principle that exists within everything we see, which makes things what they are, defines reality, and holds it all together.  A tree and gravity aren't each different self-existent principles, rather, they belong to a larger principle, which is why they interact and fit together.  It's the same principle that makes logic logical.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I do believe there is life elsewhere.  The universe is massively large though so that we haven't found them is not surprising.  I would love to live long enough for us to discover SOMETHING. 

[Ausmumof3]

Can we talk about this while remaining civil?

 

Bertrand Russell was once asked what he'd say if he died an atheist and met God in the afterlife. He replied, "Not enough evidence, God! Not enough evidence!" I feel like I'm in the same boat.

 

Why do you think it is that God doesn't reveal himself to people who are seeking him?

 

How do you deal with the fact that God seems to be a deity of coincidences--he heals Christians and non-Christians at the same rate, what is often attributed to God's work is often in conjunction with medical science ("God healed her cancer!" when she was taking chemo, for example). If someone loses a leg and prays for God's healing, it's not like God regrows the limb.

 

Why didn't Jesus drop some science on his audience that could later confirm he divine knowledge of how things work? Like if he explained germ theory or at least emphasized the importance of washing one's hands, he could have saved billions of lives on top of making a case for his divinity. Or he could have talked about the planets or something.

 

I am not asking these questions as a "Gotcha!" I'm really struggling because I feel like without something...more...to go on, if I were to become religious, I'd just be lying to myself. I'd chalk up every tingly feeling as a divine presence, and every stroke of luck as confirmation that God was interceding on my behalf. But really I'd know that I was just faking it because reality was too hard to bear. I don't know how to get past these doubts.

I came back to this to say it's actually very interesting that you picked the washing of hands as an example. Because under the law of Moses washing and cleansing was very important. The Pharisees of the day made a parade of it and criticised Jesus disciples for not washing their hands as well. Jesus actually said "it's not that which comes from outside of the man that defiles but that which comes from inside". Of course he wasn't saying - don't wash your hands but what I think he was saying is that our bigger problems don't come from sickness or disease or dirt even though they are problems but then biggest problem is the stuff that comes from inside.

 

I guess this tells you his ministry wasn't about the physical but the spiritual healing.

 

In fact one reason he may not have talked about hand washing etc anyway aside from all that is that it was a big part of the religious culture at the time. Also there was care about handling dead bodies meat etc.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Ausmumof3

[creekland]

Here's an idea: for me, some of the only concrete evidence for the existence of God (and I still don't believe in a concrete God in the Sky, so take from this what you will) is the Fermi Paradox.  

 

A lot of people say life and Earth and humanity and etc. are so complex and beautiful and amazing that there must be a Creator.  Others argue no, it all came about by a process of development combined with chance, etc.

 

Well, for me, the question is - if we're not unique, if the Earth and people and animals and the whole system here wasn't Created, then where is everyone else?  Where are the aliens?

 

Now, my favorite answer to the Fermi Paradox - the one I find most likely - is that when intelligent beings get to a certain level of development, society collapses and they go back to a pre-technological society before they can get out of their own solar systems.  I think we're nearing that point.

 

 

But I'm willing to entertain the notion that maybe the answer to where are the aliens is there are no aliens because we are unique in the universe; if we are unique in the universe I can't really see any explanation for that, scientifically, which leads to the idea of something inexplicable by science as our origin.

 

Hang on a second.  I've watched Stargate (and similar shows).  There are aliens!   :lol:

 

I definitely believe there can be other living beings out there - either like us or 100% different.  It could even be likely IMO.  Why would a Creator stop at just one planet?  I mean, He could, but He certainly didn't have to.

 

Our solar systems are so far away from each other (literally) that it would take something incredibly monumental to cross from one to another.  It's not quite as simple as Hollywood makes it out to be with "just" inventing a Starship or finding a Stargate.  We have listening devices, but it still takes time - lots of time - to cross that huge chasm even to get to the nearest star, not to mention other places with inhabitable planets.  Then there's direction/aim.

[EMS83]

Can we talk about this while remaining civil?

 

Bertrand Russell was once asked what he'd say if he died an atheist and met God in the afterlife. He replied, "Not enough evidence, God! Not enough evidence!" I feel like I'm in the same boat.

 

Why do you think it is that God doesn't reveal himself to people who are seeking him?

 

How do you deal with the fact that God seems to be a deity of coincidences--he heals Christians and non-Christians at the same rate, what is often attributed to God's work is often in conjunction with medical science ("God healed her cancer!" when she was taking chemo, for example). If someone loses a leg and prays for God's healing, it's not like God regrows the limb.

 

Why didn't Jesus drop some science on his audience that could later confirm he divine knowledge of how things work? Like if he explained germ theory or at least emphasized the importance of washing one's hands, he could have saved billions of lives on top of making a case for his divinity. Or he could have talked about the planets or something.

 

I am not asking these questions as a "Gotcha!" I'm really struggling because I feel like without something...more...to go on, if I were to become religious, I'd just be lying to myself. I'd chalk up every tingly feeling as a divine presence, and every stroke of luck as confirmation that God was interceding on my behalf. But really I'd know that I was just faking it because reality was too hard to bear. I don't know how to get past these doubts.

 

What is it people are seeking when they're not "finding" God?  And if what they are seeking as "God" isn't, actually...why would they "find" Him?  Air quotes not for snark but because God isn't hiding; we are swimming in His Presence and because I think we often subconsciously seek some glorified version of ourselves or another, which is not Who God Is. 

 

Is God supposedly omni-present or not?  Does He manipulate people or does He offer autonomy?  This will tell you what tingly feelings are or aren't (generally speaking).  Is God the source of all life?  Did He design our bodies?  This will tell you why or why not people of all walks heal at about the same rate.  Did He give us intellect?  This will tell you whether a cancer treatment can be attributed to God.  

 

No one can argue you into or out of belief.  Faith is how we order our actions and reactions according to our beliefs.  We do use "faith" interchangeably with "belief," but it is more than that.  

 

Jesus came to give us what we couldn't give ourselves: the union of Humanity and Divinity within Himself, God Incarnate.  His death and resurrection, while having a justification quality to it, was to conquer the hold that death had over our humanity.  And if you ask some, to tell the people who died waiting for Him that they could stop waiting.  :)

 

I would caution against regarding prayer as operating some sort of cosmic vending machine.  This is wrong (and I see many Christians misuse it this way, too).  Prayer is one way we participate in that communion, a way to "connect" with God.  He is here, now, but forebears to an unimaginable degree until we turn to Him within ourselves.  Prayer is one way we turn toward Him.  Compassion for all His creatures is another way.  These are not small things to be taken lightly, nor things to get puffed up about, but things to do sincerely and quietly, hopefully as humbly as if He did indeed undeniably reveal Himself to all.

 

I hope some of that makes sense--I mean syntactically.  If your frame of reference is totally different, I know it won't make philosophical sense.  That's ok, I'm not going to try to make you get it or agree with me--just presenting tidbits from my understanding of my Faith, such as it is.  :)  And saying all this does not mean I've perfected anything or don't have doubts.  I'm the opposite of perfect, and I have many doubts.  But faith, like love, really is more of a verb than a noun.  So I choose.  Sometimes I even choose well.  :D

[Scarlett]

It's always interesting to me when people say things like, "God must be like 'x', or He does not exist," or "If God is like 'y,' I can't believe in Him," or "If there is a God, He would surely do 'z'."

 

When it comes to God's existence, it truly doesn't matter what we think He should do or what we think He should be. He either exists or He doesn't. If He does, He is Who He is, not who we would make Him to be.

This was part of my thought process too. I remember cutting up a red bell pepper one time and being amazed at the color. It is a small thing and a silly thing but I do remember thinking how this beautiful piece of food did not just come about by chance.

 

So if the Creator allows or causes something that I don't 'get' I don't think 'well I can't believe in that kind of God'. I think,'well the Creator who has made my life possible surely has reasons why he does what he does and it really isn't surprising I don't understand.' I mean, I didn't see the gorilla, why would I presume I can understand the Grand Creator's every move?

 

I do though find many explanations and comfort and hope for the future through my study of the Bible.

[hornblower]

,you can choose to give up in despair and quit asking

But atheists don't all despair; I don't actually know of any despairing atheists.  It's not that atheists all just gave up. We choose what we think is truth. It's liberating and freeing and joyous. Some quit asking because we suddenly see the questions as irrelevant. 

 

 

[livetoread]

I don’t think God has to be one way or the other. It’s believers who claim that a deity exists *and* that the deity is loving. It was the evaluation of that claim that ultimately led me to nonbelief.

 

I would rather there be no deity than a cruel, capricious deity. I couldn’t get my mind around what it would mean for us if a deity exists, but it’s nasty. Best not to go there, lol. So that really was the ultimate question for me. Is it loving if it exists?

 

I believe that the preponderance of evidence says if one exists, it is not loving, and like I said, I don’t want to go there. I firmly believe that if this deity actually exists and is actually loving, then it will understand why I think it probably doesn’t exist.

 

Words matter. When someone/thing is described as “lovingâ€, that means certain things. The logical entanglements one ends up getting into, the excuses one must make for inexcusable things, all to try and explain what cannot be explained, IMO, left me exhausted. The existence of evil with the existence of a loving, powerful deity cannot be reconciled, IMO.

 

I know a few people who acknowledge that, and say, yes but they still believe anyway. They often end up talking about how God is unknowable and things don’t always make sense to us now. I’m fine with that, but then don’t try and tell me your deity is loving. If God is unknowable, then no one knows if God is loving or not. We can certainly hope so, but I’m not optimistic given the evidence.

 

Maybe in some unfathomable way, God exists and is loving and things look a certain way now, but things will make more sense later. I think that would be wonderful, and in that case, I’m sure a loving deity would understand my issues. It’s a very human thing to insist people believe something that for a certain number of us is impossible to believe, and then wanting a punishment for not believing. I would think that a loving deity is better than that.

[Lady Florida.]

But atheists don't all despair; I don't actually know of any despairing atheists.  It's not that atheists all just gave up. We choose what we think is truth. It's liberating and freeing and joyous. Some quit asking because we suddenly see the questions as irrelevant. 

 

 

 

Yes this. I don't know why so many religious people think atheists are in despair or believe that life's a b!tch and then you die. I and many other atheist I know are perfectly happy (not all the time of course - everyone has ups and downs). Some of us explored other religious beliefs than the one we left, before letting them all go. Others just let go without looking elsewhere. Some, usually those who came from a strict conservative background in their former religion, had a harder time letting go. But once we let go we are perfectly comfortable with our decision.

 

I used variations of the words 'let go' several times above. I think it's more accurate than 'gave up'.

[MercyA]

I don’t think God has to be one way or the other. It’s believers who claim that a deity exists *and* that the deity is loving. It was the evaluation of that claim that ultimately led me to nonbelief.

 

I would rather there be no deity than a cruel, capricious deity. I couldn’t get my mind around what it would mean for us if a deity exists, but it’s nasty. Best not to go there, lol. So that really was the ultimate question for me. Is it loving if it exists?

 

I believe that the preponderance of evidence says if one exists, it is not loving, and like I said, I don’t want to go there. I firmly believe that if this deity actually exists and is actually loving, then it will understand why I think it probably doesn’t exist.

 

Words matter. When someone/thing is described as “lovingâ€, that means certain things. The logical entanglements one ends up getting into, the excuses one must make for inexcusable things, all to try and explain what cannot be explained, IMO, left me exhausted. The existence of evil with the existence of a loving, powerful deity cannot be reconciled, IMO.

 

I know a few people who acknowledge that, and say, yes but they still believe anyway. They often end up talking about how God is unknowable and things don’t always make sense to us now. I’m fine with that, but then don’t try and tell me your deity is loving. If God is unknowable, then no one knows if God is loving or not. We can certainly hope so, but I’m not optimistic given the evidence.

 

Maybe in some unfathomable way, God exists and is loving and things look a certain way now, but things will make more sense later. I think that would be wonderful, and in that case, I’m sure a loving deity would understand my issues. It’s a very human thing to insist people believe something that for a certain number of us is impossible to believe, and then wanting a punishment for not believing. I would think that a loving deity is better than that.

 

I get what you're saying, livetoread.

 

Absolutely I've thought, "That doesn't seem right" about things God's done. But I remember that He says, "...My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways." He sees the end results I don't. I could say, "God if you do 'x' or demand 'y' or allow 'z', you're unloving, in my view, and therefore I reject you." But I believe that would be foolhardy of me. 

 

I've made decisions that my daughter thought were unloving and unkind. But she doesn't see what I see and know what I know. She needs to trust that I am ultimately doing what is best, even when she doesn't agree.

 

I think of Joseph, betrayed by his own brothers, dumped in a well to die, sold into slavery, taken away from his homeland, unjustly accused of assaulting his master's wife, thrown into jail...talk about a lot of sucky things to happen to one person. But ultimately he could say to his brothers, "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive."

 

There's some interplay between our free will and God's sovereignty that we don't fully understand. Not only that, but He has allowed other spiritual beings some measure of power in this world, for now. I'm okay with all of that. He's God and I'm not.

Edited November 16, 2017 by MercyA

[eternalsummer]

That's interesting.  I think quite a lot of religious people think there probably are aliens, so I'd have not have guessed that was important for some.  I wonder though if it speaks to a kind of inter-planetary bias?

 

FWIW this issue of complexity and being planned is kind of a popular watered down version of an argument from order, which is really about a First Principle.  What it says is that there s a logical or rational principle that exists within everything we see, which makes things what they are, defines reality, and holds it all together.  A tree and gravity aren't each different self-existent principles, rather, they belong to a larger principle, which is why they interact and fit together.  It's the same principle that makes logic logical.

 

This First Principle is how I see the idea of God (Spinoza's God, essentially) but I am not sure that it goes further to imply a God in the Sky type of thing.

[eternalsummer]

I do believe there is life elsewhere.  The universe is massively large though so that we haven't found them is not surprising.  I would love to live long enough for us to discover SOMETHING. 

 

But the question isn't why we haven't found them, it's why haven't they found us.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

 

I hadn't really considered the problem until I read about it, but it's unavoidable once you've considered it.

[eternalsummer]

Hang on a second.  I've watched Stargate (and similar shows).  There are aliens!   :lol:

 

I definitely believe there can be other living beings out there - either like us or 100% different.  It could even be likely IMO.  Why would a Creator stop at just one planet?  I mean, He could, but He certainly didn't have to.

 

Our solar systems are so far away from each other (literally) that it would take something incredibly monumental to cross from one to another.  It's not quite as simple as Hollywood makes it out to be with "just" inventing a Starship or finding a Stargate.  We have listening devices, but it still takes time - lots of time - to cross that huge chasm even to get to the nearest star, not to mention other places with inhabitable planets.  Then there's direction/aim.

 

Right, but unless you think we are unique enough to be the first developed intelligent beings, which really would be very unlikely, statistically, without some intervening force, then other intelligent races, given that we're close to average, should have been here 200 million years ago, or 4 million years ago, or yesterday, or 20,000 years ago, or etc.  

[creekland]

I don’t think God has to be one way or the other. It’s believers who claim that a deity exists *and* that the deity is loving. It was the evaluation of that claim that ultimately led me to nonbelief.

 

I would rather there be no deity than a cruel, capricious deity. I couldn’t get my mind around what it would mean for us if a deity exists, but it’s nasty. Best not to go there, lol. So that really was the ultimate question for me. Is it loving if it exists?

 

Personally, I don't see this at all as part of "Does a Creator Exist" question.  I see it as a "Does Evil Exist" question.  My answer is yes.  The two entities are not one and the same and they are at war with each other on a spiritual level (that often gets reflected in the tangible life we see).  I believe there are angels.  I believe there are demons.  I believe there is a Creator.  I believe there is Satan.  There is more than one spiritual being and some of them are downright nasty.  Christians are told (from the Bible) that in the end good wins, but I don't think we're at the end yet.

 

Right, but unless you think we are unique enough to be the first developed intelligent beings, which really would be very unlikely, statistically, without some intervening force, then other intelligent races, given that we're close to average, should have been here 200 million years ago, or 4 million years ago, or yesterday, or 20,000 years ago, or etc.  

 

But even if we believe there are more intelligent beings out there (which I think there certainly can be), it takes a LOT to overcome that sort of distance.  It really isn't as easy as Warp 9.  Google tells me that would get someone 4 light years in a day (assuming traveling faster than the speed of light were possible with any technology developed).  The nearest galaxy is roughly 2.5 million light years away.  Dividing 2.5 million by 4 is 625,000 days (assuming one could keep up that as of yet impossible speed).  This is about 1700 years.  Do these beings live that long?  Do they care about space exploration that much?  Then, of course, they have to be headed in the exact correct direction to find us.

 

Within our own galaxy there are closer possible places, but the distances are still quite large (4-50 light years), esp considering we have no real thoughts that one can exceed the speed of light for any length of time.  Other intelligent beings would have the same hurdles to overcome - probably even budgetary and sufficient materials hurdles.

[Pam in CT]

(The Fermi paradox stuff *is* fun to drash on.  

 

I come back to probability though: there's been life on earth for ~4 billion years, and intelligent human-ish beings for ~200,00 years... but for all that vastness of time, it's only been ~200 years that the most intelligent species on the planet here has been intelligent enough to send or receive radio waves; and considerably less than that, that we've been able to send or (potentially) receive transmission into deep space.  

 

And we still have absolutely no viable means of *getting* anywhere off our solar system.  

 

And... between climate destruction and war and other self-inflicted mayhem, we sure look to be on a track that as a species we won't survive another millennia.

 

So the probability that *we,* exceptional and central though we surely are from our own perspective, will for all our technological savvy ever get anywhere *else* seems vanishingly low.  

 

Don't know why that (intergalactic traveling years as a % of total number of years of extant life on a given hospitable planet) ratio should be presumed any higher elsewhere, than it is here (somewhere vanishingly close to 0 / 4 billion).

 

I do enjoy such speculations, though...  :laugh: )

 

 

(Back to regular programming)

Edited November 16, 2017 by Pam in CT

[Lady Florida.]

But the question isn't why we haven't found them, it's why haven't they found us.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

 

I hadn't really considered the problem until I read about it, but it's unavoidable once you've considered it.

 

Well, we have found planets that appear to be able to sustain life (or at least life as we know it). As other posters pointed out, it's not easy even for intelligent beings to travel light years' worth of distance in space. If there are other life forms and if any of them are as intelligent as humans, they might still be trying to come up with long distance space travel. Maybe they've even spotted earth and determined that it's capable of sustaining life. 

 

I personally find the idea that there's other life out there somewhere easier to believe than that there are deities out there, invisible to us all. 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[Pam in CT]

Well, we have found planets that appear to be able to sustain life (or at least life as we know it). As other posters pointed out, it's not easy even for intelligent beings to travel light years' worth of distance in space. If there are other life forms and if any of them are as intelligent as humans, they might still be trying to come up with long distance space travel. Maybe they've even spotted earth and determined that it's capable of sustaining life. 

 

I personally find the idea that there's other life out there somewhere easier to believe than that there are deities out there, invisible to us all. 

 

 

For me, the idea that there could be  (which of course isn't the same as is) other life out there somewhere isn't difficult to accept (which of course isn't the same as believe) at all.  For me it flows fairly directly from the (granted: reductive) idea that

 

well, actually, it *could* "just happen"...  :lol:

 

 

If it happened here, why not elsewhere?  Seems to me you'd need some sort of explanatory exceptionalism for why not, which seems like it comes right back around to something close to supernatural explanations or proving-a-negative etc.

 

 

 

 

 

(I miss late night college ramblings...)

[Pawz4me]

Why is there an assumption that if there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe they'd necessarily want to come here? There are a lot of places right here on this planet that I have no desire to go to.

[Pam in CT]

Why is there an assumption that if there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe they'd necessarily want to come here? There are a lot of places right here on this planet that I have no desire to go to.

 

 

:lol:

 

But, seriously, LOTS of places you have NO desire to go to?  None at all?

 

I could only say that of a tiny handful of places, and most of them because of security or time/expense or time/discomfort (Antartica) sorts of reasons.  I'm still curious, I just lack the resources and/or the tradeoff relative to all the other places isn't there.  I'd *like* to go nearly everywhere.  

 

But perhaps the nearer aliens are incurious placid homebodies... (though I think more likely that others face similar technological and time constraints with travel across unimaginably vast distances.  WE haven't cracked the code yet, for all our famed curiosity and intellectual prowess.)

[Pam in CT]

re benevolent zookeepers:

One of the solutions is that they deliberately aren't coming here - they see us as animals in a national park - to be protected and left alone. 

Sort of a benevolent condescension. 

 

I really hate that solution. 

 

 

Well, it beats the alternative, which is conquest and colonization, right?

 

 

When I was a kid and I first heard about the radio waves scientists were beaming into space in hopes of communicating with life on other planets, I was HORRIFIED.  

 

When in the history of time has there ever once been an example of two peoples of unequal power coming together in peace and sustained friendship?  If they are out there and can pick up our measly little radio waves, they are smarter than us.  Just. Shut. Up and hope they never find us...

 

:lol: 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Pam in CT

[Pam in CT]

Sorry OP, we are far off topic. 

 

 

Yes, I'm sorry too OP.  I'll stop now...

[Chris in VA]

Ah I want to explain that I was, perhaps, misusing the word despair. I do understand it is possible to feel peace in a decision to not believe. I meant that some think it impossible to resolve and stop the search, not that they are suffering despair because they can't find an answer.

[eternalsummer]

There are many solutions to the Fermi Paradox, of course - I'm just saying that one of them, not the one I find most likely but a possibility nonetheless, is that the Earth is the only populated planet, which to me would almost certainly imply a Creator.  I don't really see any other what you might call logical or scientific evidence for God, though, and I think that looking at it that way (why doesn't God behave according to these logical rules) makes it unlikely that you'll find belief.  

 

Imo, God is how people explain the things they experience that they find it insufficient to explain logically, or scientifically, or concretely.

[gardenmom5]

It does beat the alternative. 

 

I kinda hope there is nothing out there, tbh. 

 

And yeah, why are we even trying to communicate ??? We should be cloaking the earth in an invisibility cloak. 

 

given the number of 1950's scifi and up to the present, of smarter than us aliens coming and destroying us . . .

[creekland]

given the number of 1950's scifi and up to the present, of smarter than us aliens coming and destroying us . . .

 

That too.  My mind conjured up the Conquistadors (et al) and how well it fared for everyone they found.

 

In the movies, at least the Earthlings win - usually with some neat special effects along the way.

[gardenmom5]

 

 

In the movies, at least the Earthlings win - usually with some neat special effects along the way.

I keep thinking of the outer limits or twilight zone ep with the aliens and "to serve man". It's a cookbook.

[hornblower]

Those of you pondering the aliens issue might enjoy the Three Body Problem by Liu Cixin. Won a Hugo for best novel and explore an interesting version of alien first contact. 

[Mrs. A]

OP, I think you might really find this article interesting:

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2017/11/16/why-does-god-hide-2/

 

The title is "Why Does God Hide?"