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I've been digging through old Latin threads here, working out a vision for our possible Latin trajectory. It's been helpful! But I've been noticing that various posters talk about using Latin for logic. While I know that Latin is great for logic, I always assumed that we'd do formal logic as well.

 

So for those of you who have done ongoing Latin, how much and what do you do for logic? Do you do less of it, ex: just a year or two in higher levels and let Latin be the logic in younger grades?

 

Very interested to hear. I'll have a 5th grader next year and am planning on GSWL and then likely Henle (I have a Latin background and like the Henle approach). Where does logic come in?

 

ETA: I did a Google search for this, but it turns up every Latin thread from the logic stage board...

Edited by indigoellen@gmail.com
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No btdt experience, but here's my two cents anyway ;):

 

Latin-wise, we've done GSWL (end of 5th and beginning of 6th) and are now doing Visual Latin (supplemented with more explicit grammar work). My logic plans were to do the MP sequence or something like it, starting in 7th or 8th (probably when we're done with spelling, because that will open up a space for it). We haven't done any informal logic, except for fun - I suppose I've seen a good, solid foundation in LA and math as the best prep for both Latin and logic, and I hadn't really thought of Latin as prep for logic. Nor had I thought of Latin as partially replacing a formal study of logic. (Not sure which of those - Latin as logic *prep*, or Latin as logic *replacement* (or both) - was your focus.)

 

Now that I *am* thinking of it ;), and attempted to use google-fu to uncover some relevant results from the board, I think a key assumption underlying Latin as (partial) logic *replacement* is seeing logic more as a skill - a way of thinking - than seeing it as having particular *content*. (And certainly it's common to view the value of Latin in general in how it teaches a way of thinking, instead of the primary value lying in learning the particular *content* of the Latin language.)

 

So if "teaching logic" mostly means "teaching logical thinking" - attention to detail and making precise distinctions, not letting misplaced emotions or faulty thinking blind you to the facts on the ground, crafting an argument or procedure that makes everything explicit and states all assumptions - then certainly Latin can help with respect to learning to pay attention to details and make precise distinctions. Latin can also improve language skills and thinking skills in general. And Latin texts might provide good examples of logical thinking. I can definitely get behind Latin-as-logic-prep, though I hadn't thought of Latin that way.

 

But I'm pretty skeptical about Latin-as-logic-replacement, since I take the position that formal logic involves specific *content*, not just a general "way of thinking". Although you were particularly referring to Latin as replacing *early* logic study, and it may be that early logic study is basically all prep-for-logic anyway. (And I never planned anything special for logic-prep - just planned to start with formal logic anyway.) In any case, I don't think of Latin *content* (and the habits of mind studying Latin develops) as a replacement for formal logic *content* (and the habits of mind studying formal logic develops). It's why I don't see computer programming or math proofs and such - other things that require logical thinking - as an equivalent replacement for the study of formal logic. The content is different, and that *matters*.

Edited by forty-two
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Latin is like calisthenics to logic's sport. The first may improve the second, but without the second you don't really have the rules and methods of playing the game.

 

We use Latin from around 10-12 and logic curriculum begins later (12-14 ish). I have different goals with different kids - one is pressing forward with Latin and may go all the way to AP, one switched to modern language after 1.5 yr of Latin and that is fine for her, one we started too early with Latin and dropped and hoping to start afresh in 6th grade, and youngest is too young. The oldest did Fallacy Detective and a co-op logic class, then Nance's Beg Logic, and this year is Int Logic, but additionally she's a puzzle/problem solving nutt and loves challenging math. She's set. Next child did Fallacy Detective and Logic Liftoff series, this year is doing Thinking Toolbox and some additional logic puzzles, and I'm planning to start with Beg Logic in 8th, but he's also got his Latin and does rigorous math. Next child hasn't hit logic phase yet.

 

We think both, as well as having questions and discussions to exercise critical think, are useful. But in the end Logic (formal categorical and propositional) are above what puzzles, Latin, and math can provide.

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Thank you all for this. I really like having an overview of where we are headed and this helps. Looking at Latin as logic exercise vs Logic study itself makes a lot of sense. And I really like hearing how this looks as it works out for individual kids.

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Logic was fun to do as a group, too. Whenever I found a good logic book, in addition to the WTM recs, I would have all of us do it as part of our group time. It was fast, fun, and somewhat easy when we did it together, orally, using white boards.

 

I will have to remember this! We do well with Morning Time stuff, this would be a great addition.

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No btdt experience, but here's my two cents anyway ;):

 

Latin-wise, we've done GSWL (end of 5th and beginning of 6th) and are now doing Visual Latin (supplemented with more explicit grammar work). My logic plans were to do the MP sequence or something like it, starting in 7th or 8th (probably when we're done with spelling, because that will open up a space for it). We haven't done any informal logic, except for fun - I suppose I've seen a good, solid foundation in LA and math as the best prep for both Latin and logic, and I hadn't really thought of Latin as prep for logic. Nor had I thought of Latin as partially replacing a formal study of logic. (Not sure which of those - Latin as logic *prep*, or Latin as logic *replacement* (or both) - was your focus.)

 

Now that I *am* thinking of it ;), and attempted to use google-fu to uncover some relevant results from the board, I think a key assumption underlying Latin as (partial) logic *replacement* is seeing logic more as a skill - a way of thinking - than seeing it as having particular *content*. (And certainly it's common to view the value of Latin in general in how it teaches a way of thinking, instead of the primary value lying in learning the particular *content* of the Latin language.)

 

So if "teaching logic" mostly means "teaching logical thinking" - attention to detail and making precise distinctions, not letting misplaced emotions or faulty thinking blind you to the facts on the ground, crafting an argument or procedure that makes everything explicit and states all assumptions - then certainly Latin can help with respect to learning to pay attention to details and make precise distinctions. Latin can also improve language skills and thinking skills in general. And Latin texts might provide good examples of logical thinking. I can definitely get behind Latin-as-logic-prep, though I hadn't thought of Latin that way.

 

But I'm pretty skeptical about Latin-as-logic-replacement, since I take the position that formal logic involves specific *content*, not just a general "way of thinking". Although you were particularly referring to Latin as replacing *early* logic study, and it may be that early logic study is basically all prep-for-logic anyway. (And I never planned anything special for logic-prep - just planned to start with formal logic anyway.) In any case, I don't think of Latin *content* (and the habits of mind studying Latin develops) as a replacement for formal logic *content* (and the habits of mind studying formal logic develops). It's why I don't see computer programming or math proofs and such - other things that require logical thinking - as an equivalent replacement for the study of formal logic. The content is different, and that *matters*.

My phone won't multiquote, so...

 

I think I was wondering about both, though I didn't really see how Latin could be formal logic study. I wish I could find the thread where this specifically came up - I read a lot of threads. But your definition narrows it down quite well and based on that, I'd say that I'm interested in Latin as logic prep (though the following posts make me think might like to incorporate more than that). Anyway, helpful definition of terms. Very useful to think in terms of skill vs content.

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We have done Latin and formal logic, as well as informal logic (fallacies). I don’t think Latin replaces the study of logic as a system.

 

We do some of the logic puzzles books, but mostly for fun. I think games requiring one to think ahead logically and strategize are good as well and help one develop thinking skills, as do any foreign language studies, math, especially word problems, and the reading and discussion of excellent literature. These are all different than studying formal logic as in the Memoria Press curricula and others,

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We have done Latin and formal logic, as well as informal logic (fallacies). I don’t think Latin replaces the study of logic as a system.

 

We do some of the logic puzzles books, but mostly for fun. I think games requiring one to think ahead logically and strategize are good as well and help one develop thinking skills, as do any foreign language studies, math, especially word problems, and the reading and discussion of excellent literature. These are all different than studying formal logic as in the Memoria Press curricula and others,

So looking at it as having a battery of ways to approach various aspects of logic and thinking skills. I appreciate that perspective and will keep it mind, thank you!

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