Controversial Job

[Meriwether]

I have had a person tell me she does not become friends with the local group of Christian homeschoolers, because while they are friendly at evens, they would never invite her kids into their homes. She's not a card reader or anything.  She's a financial analyst actually.  But she doesn't attend a church.  We are in New England where people are typically fairly tight lipped about religion.  And I thought she was being paranoid. But this thread has really opened my eyes.

 

As an outside observer, comparing a person with different beliefs to a outspoken racist is .... odd.  Living where I do, I know so many people with different beliefs.  I guess I can understand the "circle the wagons against the evil of most everyone in the USA" is a thing but I didn't realize how widespread it was here.

We are conservative Christians and I have *always* had to be the first one to invite families/kids over. We were in the homeschool group here three years before I made the effort (and I started by planning a very cool event that kids would want to come to) this time. The families/kids that I invited over have reciprocated. No one else has invited us over.

[unsinkable]

And this is why all of dd's friends are public school kids. It's so weird to me that someone would shun children over a parent's religious belief. I don't know why it's seen as normal among some homeschoolers.

 

This thread makes me sad.

It doesn't follow that bc all your DD's friends are public schooled that only HSed kids would shun your DD or that no PSed kids would shun your DD for religious beliefs.

[Hilltopmom]

Nm

Edited November 12, 2017 by Hilltopmom

[poppy]

For some people, this is not simply a matter of different beliefs. I don't have time to do any searching right now, but there are specific commands in the Bible to avoid associations with witches and soothsayers (I think that's the word used). If a person takes that seriously, they are not going to hang out with someone who tells fortunes.

 

So I think it would be reasonable to assume that though an individual Christian person might be perfectly happy to befriend people of all faiths and no faith, that same person might shy away from someone he/she perceives as practicing witchcraft/soothsaying.

 

BTW I've been dumped as a friend by people who didn't like Christians, and in a homeschool group endured much nasty anti-Christian commentary by a self-described "atheist and God-hater." It was an inclusive group,which I had sought out specifically so my kids would not grow up in a Christian bubble. So much for that. And I am a mild-manner Presbyterian; no one in that group would have even known we were Christian if the question hadn't been asked.

 

And, sure, there are Christians who don't want to associate with the "wrong kind of Christian." But it's not just a crazy Christian thing.

New or Old Testament?

 

Because there are so many Old Testament rules people don’t follow- food, dress, stoning adulterers etc. And I’m pretty sure in a ‘WWJD’ sense, the answer to how to treat a child of a community outlier is not ‘avoid that family and do not allow them to join our group’.

 

But that’s a snarky reply. I am actually curious to hear the answer about the origin of the directive.

 

I’m sorry you met a jerk . I am in a secular coop and I know a ton of people who are religious - we are too. But excluding based on belief isn’t just a Christian thing for sure.

[marbel]

New or Old Testament?

 

Because there are so many Old Testament rules people don’t follow- food, dress, stoning adulterers etc. And I’m pretty sure in a ‘WWJD’ sense, the answer to how to treat a child of a community outlier is not ‘avoid that family and do not allow them to join our group’.

 

But that’s a snarky reply. I am actually curious to hear the answer about the origin of the directive.

 

I’m sorry you met a jerk . I am in a secular coop and I know a ton of people who are religious - we are too. But excluding based on belief isn’t just a Christian thing for sure.

 

Probably mostly OT, but perhaps NT too.  Maybe in some of Paul's letters?  I am not sure.

 

And, sure, I get that people can be selective in which OT rules they follow, we've all been down that road before. (I mean we all in general on this board.)  People are inconsistent. And I agree that Jesus would have me befriend people of all faiths and no faith, however we are also to be discerning in the people we associate with and those we have our children associate with, right?   

 

But in any case, I'm talking about what a hypothetical person might do, not what I would do.  And I do maintain that this particular thing - a perceived practice of soothsaying/divination - may go beyond "different beliefs" for some people.  For some, it may indicate an overall incompatibility that they couldn't get past. 

 

Pretty sure we have all met jerks of various kinds at times.  I'd also guess that all of us have met people that might have seemed on the surface to be potential friends but it doesn't work out, whether it is simple incompatibility or something else that causes the friendship not to blossom. 

[Mergath]

It doesn't follow that bc all your DD's friends are public schooled that only HSed kids would shun your DD or that no PSed kids would shun your DD for religious beliefs.

No, but it seems to be far more prevalent with homeschooled kids. The only co-op in my area is horrible about shunning anyone who isn't the right flavor Christian.

[Carol in Cal.]

. But excluding based on belief isn’t just a Christian thing for sure.

I don't remember anyone advocating that in this thread, so it seems like a bit of a straw man.

However, some people have said that they would avoid a situation where their children would be taught something without their parents' consent that they grossly disagreed with and/or considered dangerous.  That seems like something we could all get behind if it didn't have the C word attached to it.

[MercyA]

Probably mostly OT, but perhaps NT too.  Maybe in some of Paul's letters?  I am not sure.

 

Magic and divination are associated with demonic activity in the New Testament. In Acts 16, Luke mentions a slave girl who was "possessed with a spirit of divination" by which she earned money for her masters. Paul cast out the demon and her owners took him to court. In Acts 13, Paul strongly rebukes a religious sorcerer, calling him "you son of the devil."  In Acts 19, some new believers who had previously practiced magic burned their books, which were worth fifty thousand pieces of silver. 

 

In Galations 5, Paul writes [emphasis mine], "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

 

So, yes, I believe this is an issue Christians are called to take seriously.

 

And, sure, I get that people can be selective in which OT rules they follow, we've all been down that road before. (I mean we all in general on this board.)  People are inconsistent. 

 

I've said this before and I'll say it again, since it seems to be such a common cause of contention and misunderstanding. I am not Jewish, and I am not inconsistent in not following Jewish law. Christians are no longer under the law given to Israel, except the portions repeated as instructions in the New Testament. "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes," Romans 10:4. "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor, " Galatians 3:24-25. 

 

And I agree that Jesus would have me befriend people of all faiths and no faith, however we are also to be discerning in the people we associate with and those we have our children associate with, right?   

 

Yes, well said.

 

OP, I think you'd be welcome to join my homeschool co-op and come to its events. Members are not required to agree with our statement of faith to join. However, you'd be restricted from teaching anything that contradicts our statement of faith, as are we all. (For example, I'm an old earth creationist, but am not allowed to teach anything that contradicts a literal six day Creation, which has been tricky at times.  ;) ) I hope everyone would be friendly and kind to you and your kids.

 

I wouldn't be comfortable going to your home, however, or having my child visit there. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by MercyA

[Rosie_0801]

Magic and divination are associated with demonic activity in the New Testament. 

 

So, yes, I believe this is an issue Christians are called to take seriously.

 

And yet from my perspective, devout Christians practice magic more than I do!

 

 

You can all come to my house if you want, but you'll have to take turns. My house is too small to fit more than three visitors, and none of them can be your husband because the only place to sit is on my bed and that'd be too weird.

[maize]

And yet from my perspective, devout Christians practice magic more than I do!

 

 

You can all come to my house if you want, but you'll have to take turns. My house is too small to fit more than three visitors, and none of them can be your husband because the only place to sit is on my bed and that'd be too weird.

I wish I could in fact pop over for a visit Rosie!

 

My kids wouldn't have to come in, they could hang out outside with the chooks.

[Rosie_0801]

I wish I could in fact pop over for a visit Rosie!

 

My kids wouldn't have to come in, they could hang out outside with the chooks.

 

You said chooks!  :smilielol5:

 

 

 

Okay. Digression over...

[MercyA]

This makes me sad. You'd be missing out on the potential for really nice friendships.

 

I understand you'd consider the OP and her children to be putting yours into spiritual danger by virtue of mom's job.

 

I just think it's sad. I can't imagine not going to Rosie's place, for example, because she owns and uses tarot cards. 

 

I understand, Sadie, and I appreciate you sharing your perspective so gently. There's no getting around it for me, though, and I wanted to answer rainbowmama honestly.

 

I'd love to meet Rosie (and her chooks) and hope she would tolerate my religious scruples.

[LMD]

I'd bring my kids to visit you, Rosie! But if you pulled out tarot cards and said "hey kids, wouldn't it be fun to do a reading!" - it's gonna be awkward. Just like if I insisted you say grace* with us 😉

 

*to reference an old thread!

[Rosie_0801]

I'd bring my kids to visit you, Rosie! But if you pulled out tarot cards and said "hey kids, wouldn't it be fun to do a reading!" - it's gonna be awkward. Just like if I insisted you say grace* with us 😉

 

*to reference an old thread!

 

I can say "Amen" politely. I don't even talk about evolution with other people's kids, let alone read Tarot for them. What would a kid need a Tarot reading for anyway?

 

(What old thread is that?)

 

I can cope with most people's religious scruples, but if any of you require me to throw my Tarot cards, altar, 'Christina Visits the Holy Land,' my collection of Qu'ran stories, Harry Potter, the Jewish holiday colouring book, my box of candle making supplies, my box of Christmas tree decorations (which includes a keyring featuring Terry Pratchett's Death,) etc over the side fence before you come, we'll just meet at a cafe, ok?

 

 

Btw, they are not my chooks, the little beasts. :glare:  They are dd's. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would not have an issue with a Tarot reading teacher who was not teaching Tarot. I would not have an issue with even my young children (who obviously have grown up) being friends with any reasonably well behaved children of any religion or practice.

 

I don’t practice divination (or whatever you want to call it) and do believe that the NT speaks against it. But I am not afraid of what I believe to be a lie.

 

I actually had my fortune told once in exchange for the gospel. As in she wanted to hear the gospel and insisted on “paying “ me by telling me my fortune. Don’t ask me what she said though, because while I looked attentive, I was actively not listening. She was actively listening to me explain the gospel to her though as it was something she desperately wanted to know. She believed that no Japanese Christian would let her in the door and sought me out at the hospital where I worked at that time. I have no idea if she ever responded favorably to what I shared with her.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marbel]

<snip>

 

I've said this before and I'll say it again, since it seems to be such a common cause of contention and misunderstanding. I am not Jewish, and I am not inconsistent in not following Jewish law. Christians are no longer under the law given to Israel, except the portions repeated as instructions in the New Testament. "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes," Romans 10:4. "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor, " Galatians 3:24-25. 

 

<snip>

 

Yes. I was pondering this earlier today; I didn't, and couldn't, say it properly, as you have here.  So thanks for clarifying.

Edited November 13, 2017 by marbel

[Daria]

I think you are generally right about values and play dates.

 

The other twist to this--and this is one point where the racism analogy breaks down--is that some people will believe that things like tarot reading are actual expressions of very real forces of evil--so there is a danger there beyond that of a child picking up someone else's values. They may be exposed to satanic influence that can do them actual harm.

 

You don't believe that racism is an expression of very real forces of evil?

[MercyA]

Yes. I was pondering this earlier today; I didn't, and couldn't, say it properly, as you have here.  So thanks for clarifying.

 

marbel, I hope you didn't think I was being critical of you! It's kind of a pet topic of mine, so I like to thrown in my two cents when it comes up on the board. It's something my husband and I have discussed often, beginning about 15 years ago when I asked him if I should be covering my head for prayer. It also tends to come up when people start discussing certain other Biblical prohibitions--but that's a whole other discussion and one I don't want to touch with a ten-foot pole tonight.  ;)

 

I appreciate your posts!

[marbel]

marbel, I hope you didn't think I was being critical of you! It's kind of a pet topic of mine, so I like to thrown in my two cents when it comes up on the board. It's something my husband and I have discussed often, beginning about 15 years ago when I asked him if I should be covering my head for prayer. It also tends to come up when people start discussing certain other Biblical prohibitions--but that's a whole other discussion and one I don't want to touch with a ten-foot pole tonight.  ;)

 

I appreciate your posts!

 

Oh no!  I knew I wasn't saying it quite right.  I just didn't have my thoughts together properly.  You did great, really.

[maize]

You don't believe that racism is an expression of very real forces of evil?

If you want a serious answer to that question, I would say that racism has its roots in a genetic inclination towards in-group/out-group bias, with complex cultural overlays.

 

I have religious opinions on the role Satan may play in tempting us to embrace racism, but I don't think he has any need to create it outright.

[Guest]

And yet from my perspective, devout Christians practice magic more than I do!

 

 

You can all come to my house if you want, but you'll have to take turns. My house is too small to fit more than three visitors, and none of them can be your husband because the only place to sit is on my bed and that'd be too weird.

That reminds me of an episode of the Tiny House show. After the couple built their tiny house, they had like six friends come visit and at one point, a bunch of people were sitting in the tiny loft on the bed, with their heads craned sideways because that was the only way to do it and I was like, “wow...awkward!†I think what happened was, various folks headed up the ladder and only once they got to the top did they realize that they were gonna be squinched up there and reversing down the ladder at that pont might have seemed rude. So up they went, packed like sardines, smiling in a grimacey way and saying how nice the loft was, but not really meaning it.

[eternalsummer]

I have had a person tell me she does not become friends with the local group of Christian homeschoolers, because while they are friendly at evens, they would never invite her kids into their homes. She's not a card reader or anything.  She's a financial analyst actually.  But she doesn't attend a church.  We are in New England where people are typically fairly tight lipped about religion.  And I thought she was being paranoid. But this thread has really opened my eyes.

 

As an outside observer, comparing a person with different beliefs to a outspoken racist is .... odd.  Living where I do, I know so many people with different beliefs.  I guess I can understand the "circle the wagons against the evil of most everyone in the USA" is a thing but I didn't realize how widespread it was here.

 

What you consider a racist may very well be a person with different beliefs.  Instead of being a person who believes tarot card readings are real, or that they can communicate with the dead via seances, they're a person who maybe believes that marriage outside of one's race is unwise, or that black people are inherently more violent than white people, or something.  I realize that to you one of these sets of beliefs is repugnant and unacceptable while the other is just an acceptable variation of religious belief, but to some people who have strongly held, specific religious beliefs about that kind of thing, they are both unacceptable practices/beliefs.  

[eternalsummer]

As to the OP, I'm not religious and I can't say that I'd particularly care about another family's religious beliefs unless maybe they were very pushy with my kids.  (for the love of the lord, please stop inviting my daughter to Awanas!)  As a 7-8 year old my two best friends were Chinese (non-religous) and Indian (Hindu, and pretty conservative about it as she wasn't allowed to wear a normal bathing suit, etc.)  When I moved to the Bible Belt at 10, all of my friends were Baptists all of a sudden.  I experienced no harm from the exposure to any of their cultures/religions.

 

In general, just because our family has very strongly held moral beliefs that are at the same time very different from almost every person we or the kids know, we have to be quite tolerant of the kids' having friends who don't agree with us about things we find quite fundamental.  This is part of the reason we homeschool; our line, so far, has been that if the other family is tolerant of our beliefs instead of either subverting them (serving the kids food they know they aren't allowed and lying about the contents to the kids) or making fun of them, we're good to go.  In any case we're happy for the friends to come over here :)

 

I'm trying to think, though, about a kid's parent having a job that we considered absolutely beyond the pale,  What if we found out their friend's parent performed abortions for a living?  Or, consider this for probably most people on this forum, what if you found out the parent ran a Neo-Nazi website?

 

I can't see keeping the kids from hanging out with my kids - kids are not just reflections of their parents.  I can see maybe not wanting to send my kids over to their parents' homes, though.

[TeenagerMom]

If you homeschool for religious reasons, would you be comfortable with your kids being in a homeschool group with the kids of a card reader? Would you discourage a friendship with those kids?

 

Our old co-op was pretty religious and yeah, most of them would discourage friendships.  Our current co-op is inclusive and our more religious families would welcome you with open arms because they specifically chose our co-op because they wanted a diverse environment for their children.  We have Christians, Jewish, Atheists, Wiccans, etcc all in one group and amazingly, we all get along swimmingly.

[EMS83]

I think we'd do well not to equate "religious" with "Fundamentalist Christian," for starters.  eternalsummer's Hindu friend was religious.  Thank you for your balanced thoughts and views, by the way.  :)  Life gets incredibly sticky and uncomfortable when we really start teasing out the implications of true pluralism and freedom.  I imagine that if pressed, nearly all of us have our own idea of what limits should be placed on both.

 

Anyway, I'd like to submit that anyone who sincerely and deeply believes there's a spiritual dimension to reality will have a different set of considerations in regard to OP's questions than a person who deals only in the physical.  The considerations will vary depending on what the person believes about the spiritual realm, but having the set of considerations is neither bad, nor intolerant, nor logically inconsistent, given that foundational belief.  The most you can do is discount it as a bunch of nonsense, but it won't be only Christian, or even theistic, beliefs you are discounting.

[LMD]

I can say "Amen" politely. I don't even talk about evolution with other people's kids, let alone read Tarot for them. What would a kid need a Tarot reading for anyway?

 

(What old thread is that?)

 

I can cope with most people's religious scruples, but if any of you require me to throw my Tarot cards, altar, 'Christina Visits the Holy Land,' my collection of Qu'ran stories, Harry Potter, the Jewish holiday colouring book, my box of candle making supplies, my box of Christmas tree decorations (which includes a keyring featuring Terry Pratchett's Death,) etc over the side fence before you come, we'll just meet at a cafe, ok?

 

 

Btw, they are not my chooks, the little beasts. :glare: They are dd's.

Lol, keep your cool stuff! No purging necessary! 😆

dd is reading Colour of Magic right now, her first Pratchett! **it begins** and she has a giant box of candle making accoutrements...

 

There was a long thread a while back about some guests forcing everyone to say grace and making things awkward iirc.

[KungFuPanda]

Lol, keep your cool stuff! No purging necessary! 😆

dd is reading Colour of Magic right now, her first Pratchett! **it begins** and she has a giant box of candle making accoutrements...

 

There was a long thread a while back about some guests forcing everyone to say grace and making things awkward iirc.

It’s especially awkward at my house because my kids have trouble keeping it together when the phrase “nourish it to our bodies†is uttered. One of these kids is already on radar because she laughed at the dinosaurs on the their church’s noah’s Ark mural. This was over a decade ago and it has not been forgotten. We are definitely a perpetual worry on some prayer lists. “And pray that our catholic relatives get their acts together . . .â€

[shawthorne44]

Ditto.

 

Guess I know why some people turned down our play date offer!

 

(I don't use tarot or i ching anymore, but you're right, they are good thinking tools. I'm suprised when people think they are more than that. Obviously, a lady with a pack of cards can't literally tell the future).

 

There are people that think that.   

 

I remember getting together for a New Years Eve party with friends from college, several years after we'd all graduated.  One that I'd lost touch with brought out tarot cards.   I took it as a lack  lark, a party game.  She did mine for the next year.   It was all Victory and Good Fortune for the year.   I laughed and said, "Time for another glass of champagne".     Then she did her own.   It was all doom and gloom and she was seriously upset.  That was when I realized that it wasn't a party game, it wasn't a thinking aid.  It was very real for her.  

 

To the original question, I would tell me kids what tarot reading was, and what we believed about it.   That so-and-so's mom did that, and that they believed something else.  I would tell my child to not allow their cards to be read, but to not say insulting about it to the other family.  

 

eta: fixed some critical typoes

Edited November 13, 2017 by shawthorne44

[SparklyUnicorn]

Huh.  See I thought card reading was just something for fun.  I didn't know people believed it to have any sort of power over anything or anyone. 

 

One of mine asked me to buy him some cards and so I did.  That interest lasted a whole day.  LOL

[Heathermomster]

If you homeschool for religious reasons, would you be comfortable with your kids being in a homeschool group with the kids of a card reader? Would you discourage a friendship with those kids?

DH and I like people that are different than us. As long as adults make no active attempt to undermine our parental authority, we are good.

[I talk to the trees]

And yet from my perspective, devout Christians practice magic more than I do!

 

 

You can all come to my house if you want, but you'll have to take turns. My house is too small to fit more than three visitors, and none of them can be your husband because the only place to sit is on my bed and that'd be too weird.

Be careful what you say, Rosie! You may wake up tomorrow to find a mob of WTMers on your lawn ready to queue up for their visit!😉 (This could be the best.field trip.ever. Now where'd I put my passport?)

 

To the OP, I would have no problem at all with hanging out with you and your kids, but the homeschool "support" group we belonged to for a few years in NY would have considered your job to be absolutely scandalous, and you and your children would have become the subject of many a gossip there.

[MercyA]

To the OP, I would have no problem at all with hanging out with you and your kids, but the homeschool "support" group we belonged to for a few years in NY would have considered your job to be absolutely scandalous, and you and your children would have become the subject of many a gossip there.

 

That kind of thing really bothers me. Our co-op doesn't require members to be Christians, but they do require them not to gossip within the group. Membership can be terminated for doing so. 

Edited November 13, 2017 by MercyA

[shawthorne44]

Huh.  See I thought card reading was just something for fun.  I didn't know people believed it to have any sort of power over anything or anyone. 

 

One of mine asked me to buy him some cards and so I did.  That interest lasted a whole day.  LOL

 

If the attraction was the pretty pictures, AND if the child likes trump-based card games, look into getting a deck of Taroky cards.   It is a Czech game, and the world's best trump game.    There is a 5th suit of just trump cards which have roman numerals and tarot style pictures on them.   The person that wins the bid calls out a certain trump card that they don't have, and that person is their partner for that hand.  The really cool part, is that the partner isn't announced.   So, part of the game is figuring out who your partner is.  I get tiggly just remembering it.