Hollywood and men in politics.

[LMD]

 

Have you seen the recent article The Myth of the Male Bumbler ?

 

http://theweek.com/articles/737056/myth-male-bumbler

 

"Male bumblers are an epidemic.

These men are, should you not recognize the type, wide-eyed and perennially confused. What's the difference, the male bumbler wonders, between a friendly conversation with a coworker and rubbing one's penis in front of one? Between grooming a 14-year-old at her custody hearing and asking her out?

The world baffles the bumbler. He's astonished to discover that he had power over anyone at all, let alone that he was perceived as using it. What power? he says. Who, me?"

That's an excellent article, thanks for sharing!

 

The blog post I was thinking of is much more radical feminist unapologetic-angry-sweary :lol:

[mathnerd]

And now Charlie Rose has been accused of sexual harassment by 8 women. Argh!

I was taken aback to read Charlie Rose's apology. I never expected him to be outed as an abuser. Looks like there is no end to the abusers and the poor countless abused women ...

Edited November 21, 2017 by mathnerd

[Bluegoat]

couldn't get it to quote, but really? We don't think grown men and women don't know that masturbating in front of others (not romantic partners, by the way) is not okay in a work environment??? I refuse to believe that. 

 

As the video says, the place for your penis at work is IN YOUR PANTS>

 

Not all of the complaints we've been hearing are similar. 

 

Yes, I'm sure people know that showing your penis to someone at work, without asking first, is inappropriate.

 

But there does not seem to be agreement that it is a problem to ask.  It may be that you haven't ever seen that, but it certainly does not mean it is false.  

 

Workplace affairs are common, including between people of different levels, and including between people who are married, and including rather base sexual flings.  Sexual encounters in workplaces are not that uncommon, particularly in certain circumstances, where there is some privacy and long hours.  Conferences are rather famous for that sort of thing, places where workers are living close together, or where there is more socializing.  There is a reason it's so common to see marriages and affairs in some industries.

 

If you think this is a total no-no, many people, and not just jerk men, are going to disagree with you - you will have to convince them.  But as long as it happens, and many people accept it, you will have the possibility that someone might ask about a consensual sexual encounter, and someone might feel uncomfortable or pressured.  Every time you create a social freedom in one area, it tends to create an opportunity for problems of another kind. 

[ktgrok]

Again, "asking someone out" in a polite way is NOT the same as whipping out your penis, removing your pants, grabbing a body part, making a lewd phone call, etc. 

 

You don't accidentally harass a woman. 

[8circles]

 

Yes, I'm sure people know that showing your penis to someone at work, without asking first, is inappropriate.

 

But there does not seem to be agreement that it is a problem to ask.  It may be that you haven't ever seen that, but it certainly does not mean it is false.  

 

 

 

If there is no relationship beyond coworker, then "May I please whip out my penis to show you?" is not appropriate.

 

Is there not agreement on this?

[shawthorne44]

I'm amused, in a schadenfreude sort of way, by the fuss about PBS editing out Al Franken out of the tribute to David Letterman.   First off, David Letterman tribute?   I would think that quitting over a many victims sexual scandal would preclude a tribute.   But then once they decide to do the tribute, ignoring David Letterman coercing sex from his employees, they draw the line at Franken groping and kissing someone?  

[Bluegoat]

Again, "asking someone out" in a polite way is NOT the same as whipping out your penis, removing your pants, grabbing a body part, making a lewd phone call, etc. 

 

You don't accidentally harass a woman. 

 

So, you are taking the most obvious examples of what everyone would likely agree on here, and saying they aren't the same.  Though some people would also say, you can only politely ask someone out if you have no kind of power over them.  And what if someone is politely asked out, but feel that is pressuring them, or making them uncomfortable?

 

Your likely to find a lot of disagreement over other questions - Are you allowed to ask someone to have sex, without asking them out first?  Can you say - I'd really like to have sex with you, or indicate that you find them attractive?   What about work environments where everyone is making lewd comments or jokes - some complaints in the comedy/theatre world have been about that kind of thing - is that on the men too?  How about in all female workplaces?  These are the kinds of things you will see people disagree about.  

 

 

If there is no relationship beyond coworker, then "May I please whip out my penis to show you?" is not appropriate.

 

Is there not agreement on this?

 

"Co-worker" might be too undefined.  Some people socialize a lot with such people.  

 

I think that's a reasonable rule for the workplace, but no, I don't think there is 100% agreement or even that close to it.  Probably on message boards talking about this, you'd get close to that.  That's not what I'd call representative though.

 

But  you know there is  a school of thought that says that adults can choose to have sexual relationships, including things like masturbating in front of each other, with pretty much anyone, casually,  so long as they agree, and that there is no reason to be particularly coy about this.  It's just  a negotiation.

 

 

It sounds like you are confusing mutual consensual affairs with someone using their power and authority to get away with exposing himself or worse. Mutual consensual affairs don't start with someone exposing themselves or asking if it's okay to expose themselves. It starts as a normal relationship would start, with feelings or pure sexual attraction that BOTH react to. Anything else would imply an abuse of the power differential. 

 

 

I'm not confusing anything.  I am saying that people have consensual sexual relationships, even when there is a power differential, that don't have some romantic or date scenario to get started.  I've not often seen two people somehow start even a romantic relationship without one initiating, or in many cases one initiating when the other hasn't yet shown or felt any interest, so I'm not sure how realistic that is as a standard.

 

I kind of feel like people here are awfully sheltered if they think this sort of thing is only something men do to women and it's always distasteful to the women.  

 

This kind of push for social change has to have some kind of fairly widespread agreement.  Some things might be easy to manage, others trickier.  Some, like dating bosses, I think might not be accepted at all - were are a heck of a lot of people who end up married to bosses or supervisors, I don't think people would accept it, or follow the rule if it was somehow created.

 

I don't think scenarios where a rule is generally ignored, except when it's not, are positive - they tend to be a minefield of abuses and errors, and people never no where they stand.

[8circles]

So, you are taking the most obvious examples of what everyone would likely agree on here, and saying they aren't the same.  Though some people would also say, you can only politely ask someone out if you have no kind of power over them.  And what if someone is politely asked out, but feel that is pressuring them, or making them uncomfortable?

 

Your likely to find a lot of disagreement over other questions - Are you allowed to ask someone to have sex, without asking them out first?  Can you say - I'd really like to have sex with you, or indicate that you find them attractive?   What about work environments where everyone is making lewd comments or jokes - some complaints in the comedy/theatre world have been about that kind of thing - is that on the men too?  How about in all female workplaces?  These are the kinds of things you will see people disagree about.  

 

 

 

"Co-worker" might be too undefined.  Some people socialize a lot with such people.  

 

I think that's a reasonable rule for the workplace, but no, I don't think there is 100% agreement or even that close to it.  Probably on message boards talking about this, you'd get close to that.  That's not what I'd call representative though.

 

But  you know there is  a school of thought that says that adults can choose to have sexual relationships, including things like masturbating in front of each other, with pretty much anyone, casually,  so long as they agree, and that there is no reason to be particularly coy about this.  It's just  a negotiation.

 

 

 

 

I'm not confusing anything.  I am saying that people have consensual sexual relationships, even when there is a power differential, that don't have some romantic or date scenario to get started.  I've not often seen two people somehow start even a romantic relationship without one initiating, or in many cases one initiating when the other hasn't yet shown or felt any interest, so I'm not sure how realistic that is as a standard.

 

I kind of feel like people here are awfully sheltered if they think this sort of thing is only something men do to women and it's always distasteful to the women.  

 

This kind of push for social change has to have some kind of fairly widespread agreement.  Some things might be easy to manage, others trickier.  Some, like dating bosses, I think might not be accepted at all - were are a heck of a lot of people who end up married to bosses or supervisors, I don't think people would accept it, or follow the rule if it was somehow created.

 

I don't think scenarios where a rule is generally ignored, except when it's not, are positive - they tend to be a minefield of abuses and errors, and people never no where they stand.

 

I think you're being obtuse and this illustrates the female version of the bumbling idiot man who acts like this is so confusing.

 

 

[Bluegoat]

I think you're being obtuse and this illustrates the female version of the bumbling idiot man who acts like this is so confusing.

 

I think that's a cop-out argument.  "It's so obvious, why doesn't everyone get it". 

 

We have examples in this last rash of accusations of women complaining that men made off-colour jokes that made for a hostile work environment.  That is not something that is a male thing.  There are women who have said that an environment where comedy was off-colour and even included things like groping by men and women, was exploitative to women.  We have people saying that a power differential makes a sexual relationship exploitative.  

 

We also have an element the  culture that claims that women have as much sexual power and agency as men, that they should be as free to express it as men.  There are a lot of women who are not going to want to give up their sexual agency in many of these situations.

 

This kind of stuff is not about a Harvey Weinstein intimidating, blackmailing, and bamboozling women into sex, or even necessarily people being exploited in less aggressive ways.  That is not what I'm talking about.

 

It's about telling men and women that they cannot make lewd jokes in the workplace.  Maybe that seems easy enough in some kind of office job - if you are working on a movie set, the military, in comedy theatre - yeah, good luck.  It's about telling people that they can't date their boss or supervisor.  It's about saying that you have to date your co-worker before you ask them to have sex with you, even if you are at a conference and it would be a lot easier to say what you want in the first place.

 

All of these things people are saying are unacceptable in a particular instance actually need to be translated into actual usable guidelines, or rules of conduct, or laws, and that is not simple or obvious, however much people want to claim that it is.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Bluegoat

[Bluegoat]

Seriously, have no women here actually made lewd comments in a work environment, or known other women who did?

[8circles]

I think that's a cop-out argument.  "It's so obvious, why doesn't everyone get it". 

 

We have examples in this last rash of accusations of women complaining that men made off-colour jokes that made for a hostile work environment.  That is not something that is a male thing.  There are women who have said that an environment where comedy was off-colour and even included things like groping by men and women, was exploitative to women.  We have people saying that a power differential makes a sexual relationship exploitative.  

 

We also have an element the  culture that claims that women have as much sexual power and agency as men, that they should be as free to express it as men.  There are a lot of women who are not going to want to give up their sexual agency in many of these situations.

 

This kind of stuff is not about a Harvey Weinstein intimidating, blackmailing, and bamboozling women into sex, or even necessarily people being exploited in less aggressive ways.  That is not what I'm talking about.

 

It's about telling men and women that they cannot make lewd jokes in the workplace.  Maybe that seems easy enough in some kind of office job - if you are working on a movie set, the military, in comedy theatre - yeah, good luck.  It's about telling people that they can't date their boss or supervisor.  It's about saying that you have to date your co-worker before you ask them to have sex with you, even if you are at a conference and it would be a lot easier to say what you want in the first place.

 

All of these things people are saying are unacceptable in a particular instance actually need to be translated into actual usable guidelines, or rules of conduct, or laws, and that is not simple or obvious, however much people want to claim that it is.

 

No, I'm using the example you gave that you said people didn't agree on.

 

You think that there's a large group of people who think it's acceptable for a man to ask a woman at  (non-sexwork) work/in a professional setting - regardless of her position or his position - if he can show her his penis just out of the blue. If you think that's not obvious, you are being obtuse. The only people who would think this is OK are people who want to do it & then play the bumbling idiot, because making people feel icky is part of the appeal.

 

This is not saying anything about having an office romance. This is not saying anything about whether or not people can/do/it's OK to casually masturbate in front of someone else. It's not the same thing, no matter how hard you try to conflate them.

[8circles]

Seriously, have no women here actually made lewd comments in a work environment, or known other women who did?

 

I have never made lewd comments in a work environment. I've heard them from both men and women and have laughed, but I'm not going to say that was the right thing to do. I'm not going to pretend that these rules are so confusing because admitting my wrongdoing is uncomfortable.

[mathnerd]

I'm amused, in a schadenfreude sort of way, by the fuss about PBS editing out Al Franken out of the tribute to David Letterman.   First off, David Letterman tribute?   I would think that quitting over a many victims sexual scandal would preclude a tribute.   But then once they decide to do the tribute, ignoring David Letterman coercing sex from his employees, they draw the line at Franken groping and kissing someone?  

David Letterman had long running "affairs" with his interns or junior writers. Charlie Rose was their star for decades. They are taking a public stance against Al Franken. It is all confusing to me.

Edited November 21, 2017 by mathnerd

[8circles]

I think that's a cop-out argument.  "It's so obvious, why doesn't everyone get it". 

 

We have examples in this last rash of accusations of women complaining that men made off-colour jokes that made for a hostile work environment.  That is not something that is a male thing.  There are women who have said that an environment where comedy was off-colour and even included things like groping by men and women, was exploitative to women.  We have people saying that a power differential makes a sexual relationship exploitative.  

 

We also have an element the  culture that claims that women have as much sexual power and agency as men, that they should be as free to express it as men.  There are a lot of women who are not going to want to give up their sexual agency in many of these situations.

 

This kind of stuff is not about a Harvey Weinstein intimidating, blackmailing, and bamboozling women into sex, or even necessarily people being exploited in less aggressive ways.  That is not what I'm talking about.

 

It's about telling men and women that they cannot make lewd jokes in the workplace.  Maybe that seems easy enough in some kind of office job - if you are working on a movie set, the military, in comedy theatre - yeah, good luck.  It's about telling people that they can't date their boss or supervisor.  It's about saying that you have to date your co-worker before you ask them to have sex with you, even if you are at a conference and it would be a lot easier to say what you want in the first place.

 

All of these things people are saying are unacceptable in a particular instance actually need to be translated into actual usable guidelines, or rules of conduct, or laws, and that is not simple or obvious, however much people want to claim that it is.

 

I have actually had men proposition me in hotels on business (not on-the-job) like at happy hour or at dinner. I turned them down. They accepted it. We continued working together, in hotels, for weeks/months afterward. That's not harassment. That doesn't making it fuzzy saying that men shouldn't whip out their penis or ask to whip out their penis in a professional environment.

[Bluegoat]

No, I'm using the example you gave that you said people didn't agree on.

 

You think that there's a large group of people who think it's acceptable for a man to ask a woman at  (non-sexwork) work/in a professional setting - regardless of her position or his position - if he can show her his penis just out of the blue. If you think that's not obvious, you are being obtuse. The only people who would think this is OK are people who want to do it & then play the bumbling idiot, because making people feel icky is part of the appeal.

 

This is not saying anything about having an office romance. This is not saying anything about whether or not people can/do/it's OK to casually masturbate in front of someone else. It's not the same thing, no matter how hard you try to conflate them.

 

I should have been more clear, I separated my thought there into two parts which didn't help - I don't think most people would think that was a good idea, but I do think there are some, more than abusers, who thing that kind of statement is ok.  There is a not huge, but generally liberal, well-educated group of people who are of the view that sexual activity of all kinds is a pretty open field, so long as it is consensual.

 

there was that thread a while ago about the couple with the dog collar in the grocery store.  Which a lot of people thought was inappropriate in itself, or because it was taking something sexual into an inappropriate place - which as it happens I agree with.  But there were quite a few people who didn't see it that way - as far as they were concerned, sex is a fact of life and its no skin off their nose.  Just life, if you don't want to look, turn away.

 

The same kind of way of thinking about sex is just in a different context here.  We're adults, sex is a fact of life, we can choose who we want to do it with, and kink is no big deal.  So if you ask someone, co-worker or not, politely to indulge your kink, again - no big deal.  If they aren't interested they say no, and no harm done.

 

I don't think that's an accurate way to understand sexuality,  I also don't think that's an insincere POV, or fundamentally in this example nearly as disrespectful as the grocery store example.  I think it comes out of a particular view of sexuality as not all that intimate, and a strong view of adults sexual interactions being non-shameful no matter what the format, and contract-based.  

 

To have that happen at the office might be especially odd, but some kind of pretty basic sexual proposition in certain other work settings - less so.

 

What I think you would find a large group of people was less likely to agree on is other kinds of limits on the things they can say or do.  Lewd jokes, less flashily weird sexual propositions, dating people in different places in the hierarchy.  Asking a colleague back to your room for sex at a conference might seem more normal than asking her to watch you masturbate, but essentially it isn't that different.  It's the same question, but at a different intensity, I suppose.

 

Creating a workplace where there is no room for these things to even get started does mean a kind of policing of people's interactions, and I wonder how much of that is practical, and how much people want.  You could create a situation, perhaps, where that kind of thing meant you were dismissed or faced other consequences.  

[Bluegoat]

I'm hardly sheltered. 

 

My husband works in a hospital and has had women make advances towards him. He says there are certain types of women in a certain type of position that lean towards this behavior. Women whose obvious goal is to snag a doctor, married or not. Did he report them? No. Despite the many many sexual harassment videos he's been forced to watch. But they also weren't exposing their breasts to him or asking if they could. They didn't isolate him in a room and make him feel uncomfortable or unsafe. They were peers, equals in position, so no power differential. They were being overly nice, flirty and touchy-feely on the arm, back or shoulder and nowhere completely inappropriate. 

 

Had the genders been reversed, I'm not sure how it would have ended up, but I can guess in HR. 

 

It certainly could have.  

 

But this raises a lot of questions to me about the narrative around the less obviously evil media examples we've been seeing.

 

Do we treat this kind of thing differently from men and women?  Should we?

 

Is this ever ok?  Lots of people who work together end up married, or have affairs, these may well have started with flirting.  Is that ok?  Does it matter who initiates?

 

What if someone feels uncomfortable, in a situation many others would not mind?

 

What about this issue of being peers - a lot of people do have relationships with people who are not - its very common.  Is it something we should class as innately exploitative or so risky we shouldn't allow it?  

[Bluegoat]

I have actually had men proposition me in hotels on business (not on-the-job) like at happy hour or at dinner. I turned them down. They accepted it. We continued working together, in hotels, for weeks/months afterward. That's not harassment. That doesn't making it fuzzy saying that men shouldn't whip out their penis or ask to whip out their penis in a professional environment.

 

I don't really see it as much different as asking if they can masturbate in front of you, TBH.  I mean, if you go to their room for sex, they will almost certainly whip their penis out at some point.  And if they said at that point "gee, I really would like it if you'd watch me whack off"  that would not seem that odd either.

 

Whether or not a hotel is a professional setting or not, in that situation, does seem to be somewhat fuzzy - presumably you are meant to still be acting professionally, and as colleagues.  I've met people who have strong feelings both ways on that question.

[nixpix5]

I don't think statistics on who are perpetrators are really what people feel is unbalanced, or important to note. (And actually, I think they are pretty unreliable at a basic level, but that's a different issue.)

 

It's more that fundamentally, this culture that exists in certain industries isn't just a problem of men taking advantage of power over women, and if it's understood as such it's going to be a significant misunderstanding. The misuse of sexuality in general is a major component of the problem, and that is something that isn't about one sex dominating the other - women seem equally likely to want to uses in that way, their own or that of other women.

 

In a way, the actual exchange of jobs or other considerations for sex is a bit like a bribe. The person who accept the bribe is guilty of an offence, but it also can be the case that people offer bribes of their own accord to get what they want. Both of those people are guilty of corruption. And when it becomes endemic that creates a momentum of its own, in terms of pressuring everyone to offer the same, and creating a sense of that being normal.

Everything you say is so spot on, I couldn't agree more with this. If we want to see real change around this issue, we will need to take a deep look at the system that maintains it on all sides. We are making progress with calling men on it, but it won't be enough. Our culture is seeping with corruptive and damaging behaviors.

 

On another note, there was an actor called out recently and he emphatically denied it and just took a lie detector test and passed. What is sad about this is corrupt women lying which will downplay the legitimate evilness of the other men who have actually done it.

[ktgrok]

I think you're being obtuse and this illustrates the female version of the bumbling idiot man who acts like this is so confusing.

 

Agreed.

 

No, it isn't okay to ask your coworker, whom you are not in a romantic relationship with, to have sex. NO. NOT OKAY in the workplace. Sorry. Find a non coworker to hook up with. Goes for men and women. Period. 

[ErinE]

Ugh. John Lasseter (Cars, Toy Story, Up, Tangled, Moana... name that Pixar film) on leave of absence. Just... ugh.

 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/john-lasseter-taking-leave-absence-pixar-missteps-1057113?utm_source=twitter

[8circles]

I don't really see it as much different as asking if they can masturbate in front of you, TBH.  I mean, if you go to their room for sex, they will almost certainly whip their penis out at some point.  And if they said at that point "gee, I really would like it if you'd watch me whack off"  that would not seem that odd either.

 

Whether or not a hotel is a professional setting or not, in that situation, does seem to be somewhat fuzzy - presumably you are meant to still be acting professionally, and as colleagues.  I've met people who have strong feelings both ways on that question.

 

?? I have a hard time believing that you are for real here. 

 

Going out for drinks or dinner with coworkers (which I have spent several drinks & dinners with already) who then asks me if I'd like to go back to their room is in no way similar to someone AT WORK asking me if I'd like to watch them masturbate. I don't care how casually you consider sex, that's insane to equate the two.

 

In *my* situation where we were all travelling every week for months at a time, no - going back to the hotel was not professional time.

 

Acting as if this is confusing is an indicator that you are a creep. Saying that you think asking someone AT WORK to watch you masturbate is OK because you believe in casual sex is either being ignorant of (yeah, not likely) or complicit in the oppression of women in the workplace.

[Bluegoat]

?? I have a hard time believing that you are for real here. 

 

Going out for drinks or dinner with coworkers (which I have spent several drinks & dinners with already) who then asks me if I'd like to go back to their room is in no way similar to someone AT WORK asking me if I'd like to watch them masturbate. I don't care how casually you consider sex, that's insane to equate the two.

 

In *my* situation where we were all travelling every week for months at a time, no - going back to the hotel was not professional time.

 

Acting as if this is confusing is an indicator that you are a creep. Saying that you think asking someone AT WORK to watch you masturbate is OK because you believe in casual sex is either being ignorant of (yeah, not likely) or complicit in the oppression of women in the workplace.

 

I think you are really missing my point.  It doesn't even seem like you are thinking through what I've said.

 

My guidelines for sexual behaviour are probably stricter than those of a lot of posters who are really getting upset about this.

 

I am saying that the culture on this is being seriously contradictory, and seriously unclear.  In the situation you are describing, all travelling together, I have no problem seeing someone making an accusation about a similar situation in the media, and it would be taken as another example of oppressive patriarchy - it would absolutely be seen by many as the workplace.  Some actor is on a tour with a theatre troupe and she's propositioned, she feels pressured and uncomfortable.  What if someone is working at home?  In my work, we often lived together at the workplace, and socialized together.  Does that mean the sexual encounters were ok, or not prone to exploitation?

 

I am saying women in workplace environments where there is a lot of sexual innuendo and activity are, in my experience, as likely to be involved with that as men.  Not so much assault.

 

And I am saying that the culture that says its empowering to have a sexy encounter in your office, or its ok to go to the grocery store with your partner on a leash, is entirely working against the idea that the workplace is somehow sacred in that way, that relationships there are on a fundamentally different basis than elsewhere.

 

Essentially I'm saying that if you create sexuality as a  kind of marketplace, it's going to be very difficult not to see outcomes like this all around.

 

Agreed.

 

No, it isn't okay to ask your coworker, whom you are not in a romantic relationship with, to have sex. NO. NOT OKAY in the workplace. Sorry. Find a non coworker to hook up with. Goes for men and women. Period. 

 

 

You understand that there are many people neither believe nor practice this?  You are shouting it like its something everyone knows and agrees with except a few perverts.

 

I mean, asking for something kinking in a rather lewd was is pretty unusual, but just for sex?  Office parties are famous for it, and its hardly just abusive men.

 

If you want to change that culture because you think it might be linked to exploitation - which I think is likely - you are not going to be able to do it just by focusing on abusive situations.

[8circles]

I think you are really missing my point.  It doesn't even seem like you are thinking through what I've said.

 

My guidelines for sexual behaviour are probably stricter than those of a lot of posters who are really getting upset about this.

 

I am saying that the culture on this is being seriously contradictory, and seriously unclear.  In the situation you are describing, all travelling together, I have no problem seeing someone making an accusation about a similar situation in the media, and it would be taken as another example of oppressive patriarchy - it would absolutely be seen by many as the workplace.  Some actor is on a tour with a theatre troupe and she's propositioned, she feels pressured and uncomfortable.  What if someone is working at home?  In my work, we often lived together at the workplace, and socialized together.  Does that mean the sexual encounters were ok, or not prone to exploitation?

 

I am saying women in workplace environments where there is a lot of sexual innuendo and activity are, in my experience, as likely to be involved with that as men.  Not so much assault.

 

And I am saying that the culture that says its empowering to have a sexy encounter in your office, or its ok to go to the grocery store with your partner on a leash, is entirely working against the idea that the workplace is somehow sacred in that way, that relationships there are on a fundamentally different basis than elsewhere.

 

Essentially I'm saying that if you create sexuality as a  kind of marketplace, it's going to be very difficult not to see outcomes like this all around.

 

 

 

You understand that there are many people neither believe nor practice this?  You are shouting it like its something everyone knows and agrees with except a few perverts.

 

I mean, asking for something kinking in a rather lewd was is pretty unusual, but just for sex?  Office parties are famous for it, and its hardly just abusive men.

 

If you want to change that culture because you think it might be linked to exploitation - which I think is likely - you are not going to be able to do it just by focusing on abusive situations.

How am I not thinking about what you've said? 

 

We weren't travelling together, but all working on the same project, staying in the same hotel and travelling from all over the country.

 

There could very well be similar scenarios that would be harassment - but mine wasn't. But if you're going to change details about my story and say that's bad, acknowledge that you're giving a different scenario.

 

If there is a lot of sexual innuendo in the workplace, that's already a problem. That's not an example of different opinions on what's appropriate, that's an example of an environment that is hostile to women. Even if women are participating in the sexual innuendo, even if some of the women like it.

 

I agree with you that the culture that says it's empowering to have a sexy encounter in the workplace or put your partner on a leash in public are working against the idea that sexual proposition does not belong in a professional workplace environment. I'm saying those people aren't ignorant about that, but they don't have a problem with these environments being hostile to women.

[shawthorne44]

I hope that we as a society don't eventually become jaded by the huge quantity of the perps being exposed.   If one day soon we start thinking that this isn't a big major news ...  that would be baaadddd,   

[hornblower]

I hope that we as a society don't eventually become jaded by the huge quantity of the perps being exposed.   If one day soon we start thinking that this isn't a big major news ...  that would be baaadddd,   

 

I think sadly we are becoming jaded to everything. Abusers, nazis (the NYT happy nazi next door profile), ongoing corruption and nepotism,  expanding powers of police...  

 

Maybe it's just me but I can't keep up even trying, and so many people are just not even paying attention :( 

[Bluegoat]

How am I not thinking about what you've said? 

 

We weren't travelling together, but all working on the same project, staying in the same hotel and travelling from all over the country.

 

There could very well be similar scenarios that would be harassment - but mine wasn't. But if you're going to change details about my story and say that's bad, acknowledge that you're giving a different scenario.

 

If there is a lot of sexual innuendo in the workplace, that's already a problem. That's not an example of different opinions on what's appropriate, that's an example of an environment that is hostile to women. Even if women are participating in the sexual innuendo, even if some of the women like it.

 

I agree with you that the culture that says it's empowering to have a sexy encounter in the workplace or put your partner on a leash in public are working against the idea that sexual proposition does not belong in a professional workplace environment. I'm saying those people aren't ignorant about that, but they don't have a problem with these environments being hostile to women.

 

 

Hmm, I'm not sure that's true.  I mean, it may be true in some cases, but I don't think that's what most are thinking.

 

I believe a lot of them are thinking that women and men are both quite capable of being overtly sexual, and that in the past, women have been oppressed sexually in a way men haven't - told that they need to be good girls, judged for being sluts, and so on.  People who tend to take this view often tend to say that to some extent, people are responsible for their sexual agency - in that sense it's opposed to a more paternalistic approach.  Men are allowed to go out and get STDs, or get themselves into bad situations - women should be too.  

 

Their vision of the society we move towards is one where men and women are contracting and competing in a kind of sexual marketplace, as free agents.

 

 It's an individualistic POV - it doesn't easily square with questions like - what if a behaviour creates a larger systemic problem.  What if the freedom to create, or watch, porn, creates an exploitative environment for certain groups?  What if it tends to create an social view of the body that is unhealthy?  Those possibilities are seen as the flip side of the coin of sexual agency and freedom.

 

Probably most people are not on the extremes of either position, of course.  But for a lot of people, that idea of individualistic agency is very important in many areas of their thinking.  It's IMO at the absolute centre of American thinking about the self and society, and most of the society is not only pulling in that direction, its aggressively driving that kind of thinking.

 

 The flip side of that is the absolute opposite, where we protect categories with very little recognition of their individual agency.  It's not unusual, IMO, for an aggressive idea in one direction to beget an opposite extreme, rather than some kind of dialectic or compromise.  

[hornblower]

We now know whose actions prompted that $84,000 taxpayer payout for harassment in congress. 

Rep. Blake Farenthold (R-Texas)

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/01/blake-farenthold-taxpayer-funds-sexual-harassment-274458

 

There's a kind of UGH, wth is going on here?  photo of him in this tweet: https://twitter.com/AynRandPaulRyan/status/936650252249047046