Another shooting in San Antonio at a church :(

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Dp

Edited November 6, 2017 by Tibbie Dunbar

[SporkUK]

It feels like a heartbreaking broken record. As American in the UK, I struggle trying to explain these things to people I know when they ask me. 

 

We've known for decades that mass shooting spread, social contagion plays a big role, and that the media has a massive part to play of that. There have been guidelines to reduce this based for many years and it continues to be ignored for profit. We actually know quite a bit of what inspires these things, people worked very hard to research this to try to save lives - it just gets ignored. 

 

People with mental illnesses are more likely to be victims of violent crimes than perpetrators. While it's popular rhetoric in the media, there is no strong evidence that mental illness is involved in most mass shootings or violence at all. With how the social system in our societies glorify violence and fame, these horrible acts sadly don't go that far against the grain. The thing almost all of these shooters have in common isn't their mind but their sex (in my lifetime, something like 3 mass shootings in the US have involved a woman perpetrator, far far fewer than the amount that specifically targeted women) but almost no one would say this all a man thing. 

 

We have worldwide evidence that control of guns and/or bullets works in preventing mass shootings and gun crimes. There is nothing about Americans that means what has worked in the UK, Australia, Japan, and many other countries who still have criminals couldn't work in the US. Japan literally has a world renowned crime syndicate and their tight gun laws with tests and proof of storage still shows results. That many if not most of the many law in US are aimed at businesses and ignores private sellers and buyers is a part of the issue - it makes it looks like something is being done and safety is there where it is not. Really, the idea that no laws can change this when other countries have done so to me says that people think very little of Americans that we must be so much more violent that no law will stop us when so many other nations are not experiencing this. 

[8circles]

Why?

 

 

Because I can't reconcile that with my faith in a loving God. I keep trying to type more but it just sounds so silly. Really - this is a question? You think guns belong in church?

[SKL]

I do accept that any activity includes some risk. Every time we step outside our door (and even at home) there is some danger - natural disasters, crime, diseases, accidents happen. This does not bother me - it is part of life. But I will be ---- before I take a gun to church (if i lived somewhere this is even possible). An armed security guard outside/at the door in a dangerous neighborhood is one thing but parishioners (or priests!) carrying a gun is something I can not stomach. 

 

Interesting.  It must be a cultural thing.

 

Our former pastor was a military chaplain when he was younger.  I don't understand why guns somehow defile a church.

 

It doesn't make me feel one bit strange to feel that people in church are probably CC (including the pastors).

 

Maybe because some of my fondest childhood memories were of my extremely mild-mannered, peaceful dad cleaning his guns and making new ammunition for hunting.  (And my dad did carry a pistol for safety at certain times.)

[Bluegoat]

Suicide in a blaze of glory.

 

Yup.  Fantasizing about killing yourself and showing everyone is pretty common among the depressed.

 

It's like the trope of a mass shooting has entered the culture, so it has a life of it's own.

[Barb_]

Any structural protections in place from our style of government and basic societal value structure have been eroding for over a century. The fixes that exist aren’t the ones that are implemented, and we can’t govern our way out of a problem fundamental to the nature of man and the entirety of human history.

<snipped>

Wise laws are those that create basic structures where men can organize and thrive. But they are necessarily limited, and undertaken with the knowledge that they restrain and contain the evil of man, but can not prevent it.

Your arguments build a foundation for reasonable gun control. I'm not sure what you are saying here.

[hornblower]

Why?

 

 

Because they are instruments of death. 

[SKL]

Because I can't reconcile that with my faith in a loving God. I keep trying to type more but it just sounds so silly. Really - this is a question? You think guns belong in church?

 

I don't see what the presence of guns (particularly CC) has to do with worship.

 

As for faith in a loving God, that would seem to extend beyond the church doors.  I'm not aware of any scripture that promises bad guys will only operate outside of churches.

 

[8circles]

People have been going to church in this country for 400+ years, and guns have been around for just as long. Church shootings are a relatively recent development. One has to look at the anti-Christian rhetoric which has pervaded our society. It's out and out hatred, and it has spead like a cancer. This is not what our culture was like when I was a child.

 

This is the problem, not the gun, and it needs to be confronted and stopped.

 

For you and others who believe this narrative: this is what Alex Jones is saying. You know, the guy who says Sandy Hook didn't happen, that "globalists" want to eliminate 80% of the population then live forever through technology, that Obama is the head of Al-Qaeda, and that the government is making children gay through juice boxes. Among other things.

[hornblower]

I don't see what the presence of guns (particularly CC) has to do with worship.

 

As for faith in a loving God, that would seem to extend beyond the church doors.  I'm not aware of any scripture that promises bad guys will only operate outside of churches.

 

 

"Thou shalt not kill"  

[Murphy101]

The why didn’t someone in the church shoot him to stop him comments....

 

Maybe people making those comments should take a moment to consider that

 

Gun owners don’t fit that stereotype

Church goers don’t fit that stereotype

Texans don’t fit that stereotype

[SKL]

Because they are instruments of death. 

 

So are crosses.  So is fire.  So are hands.  ??  People have funerals in church.  I was not aware of this concept that church and death must never meet.  I mean, obviously I don't want to see shots fired in church, but if it came to that I'd rather a trained "good guy" take out a "bad guy" before he had a chance to take out a lot of people.

 

If nobody in church had a gun and someone came in shooting, they would use some other potentially deadly means to try to stop him.  Would that also be wrong?

[8circles]

I don't see what the presence of guns (particularly CC) has to do with worship. Uh, nothing. So much so that they don't belong there.

 

As for faith in a loving God, that would seem to extend beyond the church doors.  I don't know what this means in this context. Of course one's faith extends beyond the church doors. I'm not aware of any scripture that promises bad guys will only operate outside of churches. 

 

 

Bringing weapons of war (which is what guns are, regardless of what other activities they are used for by peaceful people) into a place where you worship the Prince of Peace is very clearly not appropriate, to me.

 

YMMV.

[J-rap]

Nope. We are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. And there is nothing holier about America that insulates us from this. Any structural protections in place from our style of government and basic societal value structure have been eroding for over a century. The fixes that exist aren’t the ones that are implemented, and we can’t govern our way out of a problem fundamental to the nature of man and the entirety of human history.

 

You can believe every nasty thing you want about me, but I would say culture and laws reflects the problems of the heart, they don’t shape it. We remake the world and God in our own image and try to proclaim it good, while wondering why it crumbles to sand. And when we are confronted with the exceedingly sinful nature of sin the the course of a murder or abuse or theft or any number of the countless ways man expresses his sin, we act shocked because we believed we, and our edifices of civility, were sufficient to prevent what is God’s alone to change.

 

Wise laws are those that create basic structures where men can organize and thrive. But they are necessarily limited, and undertaken with the knowledge that they restrain and contain the evil of man, but can not prevent it.

 

I'm sorry these discussions become so heated.  I would love to be able to discuss without blaming.  We're all just trying to figure things out the best way we can, and in accordance to our backgrounds and experiences.

 

I don't think people are so shocked, actually.  I think most people (Christians and non-Christians) recognize it as the evolution of an imperfect culture in an imperfect world.  The government's job is not to take on the Christian mission, and it couldn't even if it tried.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and make legal changes for the good of society, to attempt to make things a little bit better, if not for us, for the future generations.  And I think that as individuals, we can certainly promote Christ's message of peace, and take a stand personally.  

[OH_Homeschooler]

So are crosses.  So is fire.  So are hands.  ??  People have funerals in church.  I was not aware of this concept that church and death must never meet.  I mean, obviously I don't want to see shots fired in church, but if it came to that I'd rather a trained "good guy" take out a "bad guy" before he had a chance to take out a lot of people.

 

If nobody in church had a gun and someone came in shooting, they would use some other potentially deadly means to try to stop him.  Would that also be wrong?

 

Guns serve the sole purpose of taking life. Hands, crosses, fire...other uses.

[SKL]

"Thou shalt not kill"  

 

That is generally interpreted as "thou shalt not murder."  But if your church teaches that it includes self-defense or defense of others, that is fine for your church.  I assume that applies both inside and outside of church.

 

[Bluegoat]

I don't see what the presence of guns (particularly CC) has to do with worship.

 

As for faith in a loving God, that would seem to extend beyond the church doors.  I'm not aware of any scripture that promises bad guys will only operate outside of churches.

 

 

Even though Christianity as a whole isn't quite pacifistic, there has been through most of its history a strong anti-violent and especially anti-war tendency.  Enough so that clergy members carrying arms has often been forbidden.

 

There has been a long history where it has been forbidden to carry weapons into a church, and where a Church is in fact a place of sanctuary, and those who carry weapons within despite that and violate its sanctuary are committing serious sin.

 

The idea of people carrying weapons, potentially to use against other people, into a church, therefore seems quite contradictory and even perverse to many.  It doesn't assume that bad guys will not come into churches, only that if they do, that isn't the most important thing.

[8circles]

So are crosses.  So is fire.  So are hands.  ??  People have funerals in church.  I was not aware of this concept that church and death must never meet.  I mean, obviously I don't want to see shots fired in church, but if it came to that I'd rather a trained "good guy" take out a "bad guy" before he had a chance to take out a lot of people.

 

If nobody in church had a gun and someone came in shooting, they would use some other potentially deadly means to try to stop him.  Would that also be wrong?

 

I have never seen people carrying their own crosses into church - that would be a little crowded. Small, symbolic ones that people wear around their neck aren't exactly the same thing. I am not bothered by people wearing gun charms on a necklace although it would be a bit weird. Christ wasn't shot to death, he was crucified.

 

The primary use of fire and hands is not death. 

[SKL]

Well ... maybe I'm the wrong kind of Christian, but if I see someone shooting at your kid and I have a gun and know how to use it, I'm gonna take that shooter out.  Church or no church.  God will have to punish me for it.

[HomeAgain]

That is generally interpreted as "thou shalt not murder."  But if your church teaches that it includes self-defense or defense of others, that is fine for your church.  I assume that applies both inside and outside of church.

 

 

Jesus didn't fight the soldiers who came for him, right or wrong as they were.

[SKL]

Jesus didn't fight the soldiers who came for him, right or wrong as they were.

 

I don't feel that my purpose on earth is in any way similar to Jesus' purpose on earth.  I doubt my death is going to redeem anyone.  I doubt my kids' or your kids' deaths are going to redeem anyone.

 

While it is true Jesus did not fight those soldiers, he DID tell his disciples to arm themselves.  Luke 22:36.

Edited November 6, 2017 by SKL

[Twolittleboys]

This is not about you personally but just replying because several people have said that. If you're in these places, it's already happening. It's concealed carry, therefore you may not realize it. Women are doing it, men are doing it. Licensures are up and therefore very possibly the rates are up.

 

Well, I feel fairly sure that there are few (probably no) guns in church when I attend. I live in Europe and while there is quite a bit of hunting/shooting people don't normally walk around with guns. I have certainly never heard of anyone I know doing so.

 

 

 

Interesting.  It must be a cultural thing.

 

Our former pastor was a military chaplain when he was younger.  I don't understand why guns somehow defile a church.

 

It doesn't make me feel one bit strange to feel that people in church are probably CC (including the pastors).

 

Maybe because some of my fondest childhood memories were of my extremely mild-mannered, peaceful dad cleaning his guns and making new ammunition for hunting.  (And my dad did carry a pistol for safety at certain times.)

 

I think my earlier post might have been misunderstood. I actually don't have a problem with guns per se (for hunting/sport/possibly protection). And I wouldn't care too much if a couple of people in the congregation did carry a concealed gun. What I object to is the idea that people SHOULD take a gun to church. I wouldn't mind some sort of security if there had been credible threats/in a very bad neighborhood. But a need to take a gun because there are so many evil people around/there is no law and order and it is up to us to defend ourselves? That is something I do not want. It reminds me of some zombie movie (which I don't watch so maybe I am mistaken) with everyone fighting for their lives.

[HomeAgain]

I don't feel that my purpose on earth is in any way similar to Jesus' purpose on earth.  I doubt my death is going to redeem anyone.  I doubt my kids' or your kids' deaths are going to redeem anyone.

 

While it is true Jesus did not fight those soldiers, he DID tell his disciples to arm themselves.  Luke 22:36.

 

Matthew 26:52

⁵² â€œPut your sword back in its place,†Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

 

This, as he is being arrested.

[SKL]

 

 

I think my earlier post might have been misunderstood. I actually don't have a problem with guns per se (for hunting/sport/possibly protection). And I wouldn't care too much if a couple of people in the congregation did carry a concealed gun. What I object to is the idea that people SHOULD take a gun to church. I wouldn't mind some sort of security if there had been credible threats/in a very bad neighborhood. But a need to take a gun because there are so many evil people around/there is no law and order and it is up to us to defend ourselves? That is something I do not want. It reminds me of some zombie movie (which I don't watch so maybe I am mistaken) with everyone fighting for their lives.

 

I think I agree with you here.  We're not to the point where we can't go into any church in the USA without actively expecting an attack ... same with walking down the street or going to the movies etc.  And if it ever gets to the point where we are supposed to be in defense mode or hiding all the time, then I might just be happier being shot and getting it over with.  I don't know.  Despite the news stories, we are very far from that point except in a few really violent pockets of our country.

[SKL]

Matthew 26:52

⁵² â€œPut your sword back in its place,†Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

 

This, as he is being arrested.

 

He was telling them not to stop HIS destiny from playing out.

 

Obviously all who draw the sword do not die by the sword.

 

[Liz CA]

"Thou shalt not kill"  

 

If we only heeded this one commandment, we'd have no need to worry about guns, laws and murder.

[Halftime Hope]

Pretty hard to shoot up a church if you can't get your hands on the appropriate weapon.

 

Criminals will always be able to get their hands on an "appropriate weapon."  

[8circles]

Criminals will always be able to get their hands on an "appropriate weapon."  

 

Then what accounts for the difference in gun-related deaths and injuries in the US & the rest of the world?

 

More criminals? More hatred? More immorality? More.....?

[OH_Homeschooler]

Criminals will always be able to get their hands on an "appropriate weapon."  

 

Why in the world would it hurt to just TRY to make it a little harder for them? Why is this such an unreasonable thing to ask...to just try? 

[Liz CA]

I don't want to derail or change the subject away from guns - but maybe we can ponder two aspects at the same time...I cannot help wondering what different thought processes are motivating people today versus  - 50 or more years ago?

 

Guns have been legal for many years in many places - why have mass shootings increased in recent decades?

Depression, family issues, financial hardship etc. existed then too. What has caused people to deal with it differently now?

I mentioned in my first few posts the subject of media exposure - and if not outright "glorification" at least worldwide coverage. This may be contributing in some instances but it cannot really be the only reason for mass murder?

Have we become more violent as we are supposedly have become more civilized? We typically view conditions and lifestyles of 100 years ago as less "refined" and "enlightened" as we are today, yet was there less actual violence? If so, what has changed?

Are video games / TV / etc to be blamed?

Mental illness has also been around since time immemorial. Can we just explain this with increasing incidents of mental instability?

 

Just to clarify: I am truly wondering and posing questions. None of these thoughts should be misconstrued to relate to gun law debate. This is more of a post about behavioral, psychological issues.

[SKL]

Now they are saying he had threatened his mother-in-law.  Why the HELL was he not arrested?

[Barb_]

Criminals will always be able to get their hands on an "appropriate weapon."

In a country that continues to produce and sell weapons at a dizzying rate, of course they will. There are more guns than people in this country. We own greater than 50% of the weapons in the entire world. Of course it's easy for a criminal to get his hands on a weapon. That is precisely the point.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Barb_

[HomeAgain]

Why in the world would it hurt to just TRY to make it a little harder for them? Why is this such an unreasonable thing to ask...to just try? 

 

This.  No one even batted an eye when the guy in Las Vegas bought 30+ weapons in under a year.  Nobody.  There's nothing in place that even sends up that flag.  Why not?  I can't even buy 3 boxes of Sudafed without getting stopped, but someone can buy an arsenal?

 

[Bluegoat]

He was telling them not to stop HIS destiny from playing out.

 

Obviously all who draw the sword do not die by the sword.

 

 

That's pretty much the story of the Fall.

 

We bring these things into the world, and they impact it's nature, all the way down.

[J-rap]

I don't feel that my purpose on earth is in any way similar to Jesus' purpose on earth.  I doubt my death is going to redeem anyone.  I doubt my kids' or your kids' deaths are going to redeem anyone.

 

While it is true Jesus did not fight those soldiers, he DID tell his disciples to arm themselves.  Luke 22:36.

 

I think this is a thoughtful article on the subject:

 

http://reknew.org/2016/01/did-jesus-instruct-us-to-arm-ourselves/

[Barb_]

Now they are saying he had threatened his mother-in-law. Why the HELL was he not arrested?

Because we don't take domestic violence seriously. Like date rape, the terminology somehow defangs the act. Like crimes against women and children the perpetrator knows are somehow lesser than crimes perpetrated against a stranger.

[J-rap]

This.  No one even batted an eye when the guy in Las Vegas bought 30+ weapons in under a year.  Nobody.  There's nothing in place that even sends up that flag.  Why not?  I can't even buy 3 boxes of Sudafed without getting stopped, but someone can buy an arsenal?

 

 

This is really baffling to me too.

[Barb_]

I don't want to derail or change the subject away from guns - but maybe we can ponder two aspects at the same time...I cannot help wondering what different thought processes are motivating people today versus - 50 or more years ago?

 

Guns have been legal for many years in many places - why have mass shootings increased in recent decades?

Depression, family issues, financial hardship etc. existed then too. What has caused people to deal with it differently now?

I mentioned in my first few posts the subject of media exposure - and if not outright "glorification" at least worldwide coverage. This may be contributing in some instances but it cannot really be the only reason for mass murder?

Have we become more violent as we are supposedly have become more civilized? We typically view conditions and lifestyles of 100 years ago as less "refined" and "enlightened" as we are today, yet was there less actual violence? If so, what has changed?

Are video games / TV / etc to be blamed?

Mental illness has also been around since time immemorial. Can we just explain this with increasing incidents of mental instability?

 

Just to clarify: I am truly wondering and posing questions. None of these thoughts should be misconstrued to relate to gun law debate. This is more of a post about behavioral, psychological issues.

There was more recorded violence, but people were embarrassed about it. It was hushed, excused and covered up. We know better now and we should do better. I think the extremes have intensified though. The violent have become more intensely violent in order to claim their 15 minutes and those who denounce violence have become louder too.

[SKL]

We have a registry and all sorts of restrictions on sex offenders.  We should have similar for domestic violence offenders.  This guy should have not only been on a banned list for gun purchase, but he should have had his person, vehicle, and residence searched the minute there was a peep about further domestic violence or threats.  (Or that he owned a gun - which it seems he was posting on fb about?)

 

Last I checked it was a crime to threaten to assault or kill someone.

 

It's not as if people don't ever follow through on domestic violence threats.  It's not as if domestic violence isn't associated with a high % of violent crimes.  In fact it's probably the first indication of a violent personality for some people.

[8circles]

A dishonorable discharge DOES get a ding. This man was court martialed. He is barred from having possession of a weapon. But felons aren't often honest.

 

I'm absolutely not opposed to background checks for a weapon. But I'm not sure that would have prevented this.

 

I'm not addressing the inaccuracies in this post, someone already has.

 

But this idea that he misrepresented who he was - by checking the wrong box or something - and that's why he was able to get a gun. If we were counting on people being honest, we would have no need for background checks, would we? I mean this idea that our system is based on honest self-reporting and we actually expect that do be worth something? What the hell? 

[Dmmetler]

This is not about you personally but just replying because several people have said that. If you're in these places, it's already happening. It's concealed carry, therefore you may not realize it. Women are doing it, men are doing it. Licensures are up and therefore very possibly the rates are up.

Yesterday afternoon we were at cheer practice and this was on CNN in the parent's room. Almost half the moms mentioned that they have concealed carry permits or plan to get them, and are teaching their kids to shoot once they're considered old enough.

 

My DD said many of her college classmates made similar comments this morning and that her psychology class basically got taken over by discussion of the topic.

 

They don't feel safe. Not at church, school, on the streets, at home, anywhere.

 

And the idea of a house of worship not being safe and people feeling they need a gun to protect themselves in their churches, temples, mosques, synagogues... I mean, it's called a Sanctuary for a reason.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Dmmetler2

[Guest]

Why in the world would it hurt to just TRY to make it a little harder for them? Why is this such an unreasonable thing to ask...to just try?

This is what I think ALL of the time, and I am not oppsed to gun ownership. We own guns. But we’re not fruitcakes or criminals.

 

In society, “we†have no problem making other things more difficult to abuse. I can’t swing by CVS and load up on Sudafed. My son can’t stop into Walgreens and buy up several bottles of Nyquil. I haven’t seen anyone going crazy protesting the hoops one has to jump through in order to buy cough medicine.

 

I don’t know...I’m just so sick of hearing the same do-nothing drivel as every WEEK more people are mowed down while innocently going about their lives.

[SKL]

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/07/21/538518569/cdc-half-of-all-female-murder-victims-are-killed-by-intimate-partners

 

55% when you include, e.g., in-laws and innocent by-standers.

[MercyA]

This is so crazy to me. It would be like living in a war zone.  

 

This must be some frog in hot water thing playing out.  I cannot imagine accepting this. 

 

I had a friend who moved to a country with a high murder rate in the early 00s and we talked about safety and whether the family would be ok and what types of precautions they would take. Same with some other friends of dh who are geologists and moving families to remote and areas with poor policing and civil strife.  The idea that you have armed guards all over the place is just not normal.  

 

I will not accept this as normal.  I'm an atheist and I find the idea of weapons in a house of worship abhorrent. 

 

I wonder if you've ever personally known someone who carried. My dad is a liberal peacenik. He shot a bird once when he was young, and the experience so bothered him that he was never interested in hunting. He is tender-hearted. He sticks up for the poor and for people who are mentally disabled. He likes Jane Austen movies and animals and kids. He also works at a business where he is sometimes alone at night. He has carried at times there, and also at church. He feels it is his responsibility to help keep the people he loves safe. He is well-trained. He has thought long and hard and carefully about exactly when he would be willing to use his gun.  He and others like him have made me feel safer. 

 

The world *is* a war zone. I hate it. I hate war and every kind of violence. But I am grateful some people are willing to take steps to protect others. I admire the guys in Texas who took off after the killer. 

 

There is nothing particularly sacred to me about a Christian church building. I'm also not aware of any New Testament Scripture that teaches me to have any special reverence for the structure or space inside it. It's not like a Jewish temple. It's just a place to meet. We could just as well meet outside or at someone's house. 

 

I understand why this type of thing seems crazy to you. I know you are very consistent about non-violence in your own life. I admire that, just like I admire Christians who adhere to principles of nonresistance. I just can't, at this time, accept that there aren't times in which it is necessary--even good--for someone to stop an evil, murderous person with an equally effective tool.

Edited November 6, 2017 by MercyA

[Guest]

Yesterday afternoon we were at cheer practice and this was on CNN in the parent's room. Almost half the moms mentioned that they have concealed carry permits or plan to get them, and are teaching their kids to shoot once they're considered old enough.

 

My DD said many of her college classmates made similar comments this morning and that her psychology class basically got taken over by discussion of the topic.

 

They don't feel safe. Not at church, school, on the streets, at home, anywhere.

 

And the idea of a house of worship not being safe and people feeling they need a gun to protect themselves in their churches, temples, mosques, synagogues... I mean, it's called a Sanctuary for a reason.

Yeah. I hear this conversation, too. But I don’t know how people think that will help.

 

If I had a CC license, I still would not want to go about my life as if I’m on constant alert and expect to have to use my weapon at any moment. Would I have gone to Costco yesterday packing heat? If so, presumably, I would be on alert and watching for any indication that someone will need to be fended off with firepower at any moment. Other than law enforcement or military personel, who wants to live life in this manner? Who wants to go to church, a concert, a ball game, a bike ride, the post office - all with the notion that nowhere is reasonably safe and at any moment, I might have to fire at someone before twenty congregants are killed?

 

*I’m not arguing with YOU, dmmetler. I’m using your post as a jumping-off point of my own frustrations.

[Bootsie]

Now they are saying he had threatened his mother-in-law.  Why the HELL was he not arrested?

Report are that the gunman sent a threatening text to the MIL that morning.  It is not clear that it was immediately reported to the police.    

[Barb_]

We have a registry and all sorts of restrictions on sex offenders. We should have similar for domestic violence offenders. This guy should have not only been on a banned list for gun purchase, but he should have had his person, vehicle, and residence searched the minute there was a peep about further domestic violence or threats. (Or that he owned a gun - which it seems he was posting on fb about?)

 

Last I checked it was a crime to threaten to assault or kill someone.

 

It's not as if people don't ever follow through on domestic violence threats. It's not as if domestic violence isn't associated with a high % of violent crimes. In fact it's probably the first indication of a violent personality for some people.

To be effective, laws need to force convicted violent criminals (including and especially domestic violence perpetrators) to turn in guns they already own.

 

Yes, I know. Hard to enforce. But if we make it illegal to possess a firearm, a family member could turn in someone dangerous for simply owning a weapon.

 

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1BT2N9

Edited November 6, 2017 by Barb_

[Cindy in FL.]

I certainly wouldn’t consider conceal carrying a handgun to be armed for war. That seems like unnecessarily provocative language. The children wouldn’t even have to know about it.

 

One Step at a Time, I wasn't disagreeing with you or arguing? I don't think the trained squad should be necessary. I even think it's probably somewhat harmful for the children of those men to feel that while they're going to Sunday school, daddy is armed for war. :( I definitely don't think ministers and other clergy or staff should be armed for defense, any more than most of us think schoolteachers, bus drivers, and pilots should be armed.

 

I just meant to post that if it happens, here's the first church I've heard of to have anything like a security plan in place. My friend told me the police had informed them that this is a growing concept. She was as shocked as I was.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Cindy in FL.

[Barb_]

Yeah. I hear this conversation, too. But I don’t know how people think that will help.

 

If I had a CC license, I still would not want to go about my life as if I’m on constant alert and expect to have to use my weapon at any moment. Would I have gone to Costco yesterday packing heat? If so, presumably, I would be on alert and watching for any indication that someone will need to be fended off with firepower at any moment. Other than law enforcement or military personel, who wants to live life in this manner? Who wants to go to church, a concert, a ball game, a bike ride, the post office - all with the notion that nowhere is reasonably safe and at any moment, I might have to fire at someone before twenty congregants are killed?

 

*I’m not arguing with YOU, dmmetler. I’m using your post as a jumping-off point of my own frustrations.

Yeah we need a whole lot of anxious, lightly trained people walking around town with itchy trigger fingers.

[PeterPan]

Why did no one think it was odd that this guy posted a semi-automatic to his social media? 

 

Somebody may have already pointed this out, but no one may have been looking at it. Lots of people post stuff that nobody ever notices. If the guy was that much of a kook, maybe he had no friends watching.

 

But to repeat an earlier point - I do think the media attention of these things is a problem.  I think it plays right into the psychology of some people who feel they've been wronged somehow by society and they are just going to show everyone.

Agreed. When these things come on the tv, I turn it off. I'm tired of our news media making rock stars out of these people, giving them fame. They know it feeds into the mindset of depraved people, but still the media does this. They ought to give them minimal time, no fame. Instead they play it up.