Which language arts program would you choose?

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

I have a young third grader who is very bright and smart, but he's a little less mature in his language arts skills.  We are going through AAS this year because he is definitely NOT a natural speller and needs the phonics review still.  He's more of a math, STEM oriented kid with an engineering mind.  He's the exact opposite in learning styles of my oldest child, who is a natural speller, writer and advanced reader.  My oldest is more whole to parts.  We have used MCT and CAP Writing and Rhetoric with him (with plans to use Warriner's next year for grammar, and we love it.  My youngest son, however, seems to be more of a parts to whole learner and resists most writing activities, especially narration.  I just don't see MCT being a good fit for him.

 

I was planning to use A Beka grammar with him this year as he is my workbook kid (he uses their math), but we ended up using some of the Good and the Beautiful curriculum, level 2 this year along with WWE2.  He likes me to show him what he has to do, and he likes to check it off and move on.  He doesn't like a lot of contemplation or 1800's agriculturally based stories, hence the hating of narration.  I know many writing programs start around third or fourth grade, such as MCT and CAP, but I am thinking we will hold off on the formal writing until fourth grade and keep up with small writing assignments and WWE.

 

As I think and start to research what I want to do with him though, I go back and forth.  Would a more traditional, formulaic program work better with his engineering mind, or should I stick with more of the classical methods and push him a little more?  I truly LOVE CAP writing, so I thought of pairing it with their new grammar program.  I like that it teaches analysis and diagramming, and I think diagramming is important, especially for this child.  Should I stick with Writing and Rhetoric and pair it with a nuts and bolts grammar program such as A Beka?  Or maybe a different writing program such as IEW? Rod and Staff is in the back of mind, but I personally think it looks boring and outdated, and would prefer the color of A Beka as they are similar.  I considered VIE, but it's pricey.  FLL was not a hit with him as oral lessons are not his cup of tea, and I hesitate to use it again with him.  

 

I just keep thinking in circles on this one and would love some feedback.  CAP writing, CAP grammar, A Beka grammar, Rod and Staff, IEW or something else?   What say you??  

[Pen]

I'm not knowledgeable enough about a lot of your specific curriculum questions to comment on them.

 

But I am wondering if your ds having phonics trouble in 3rd could indicate some reading LD possibly going on such as dyslexia.

 

If he does have dyslexia, he will need a program that is suited to that. We used Highnoon.com reading intervention program, which is particularly well suited to high interest / low level reading. If he were past that point, maybe Language! would work for a full LA program.

 

Possibly something like Bravewriter Jot It Down would make sense for writing at a point when reading is not yet solid. He could practice some composition skills, but you would do the scribing for him.

 

www.talkingfingers.com teaches some typing along with some phonics review, reading and spelling, and that might be helpful for your ds.

[carriede]

Till about half way down your post, I was going to say WWE - it's straight forward, parts to whole, though you might have to adjust the dictation exercises (I do for my 8 year old).

 

But you said you use WWE already? How is that working? Is that what you're referring to when you say "1800s narration"?

 

FWIW, WWE is a complete writing program, it just follows a different philosophy than traditional programs. If he's doing alright with it (getting it done anyway), just do that.

 

Hope that's helpful. If not, just ignore me. ;)

 

Also, in level 3, FLL has a lot more writing. My 8 year old likes it very much. But then he doesn't mind oral lessons either.

Edited October 26, 2017 by carriede

[knitgrl]

I looked at CAP grammar at a conference a year or two ago, and it looked very good, but very intense. I am pretty sure that would not be a good fit for your child at this point in time.

 

As for us, this is my first time around doing the hs thing, and I am learning to trust the WTM approach to writing at this point - narration, copywork, and dictation. If dd is getting tense, I will scribe narrations for her, and let her copy just part of it.

[3 ladybugs]

I use CAP Grammar. If there is something you would like to know specifically let me know. I really like the program. Although I have found that with my son a lesson takes more then 2 weeks, generally speaking. I do plan to continue using it. I am just glad that he is progressing slowly enough that new levels can come out before we need them. 

[eternalsummer]

I like Bravewriter for that age with a bright kid.

[Ellie]

I have a young third grader who is very bright and smart, but he's a little less mature in his language arts skills.  We are going through AAS this year because he is definitely NOT a natural speller and needs the phonics review still.  He's more of a math, STEM oriented kid with an engineering mind.  He's the exact opposite in learning styles of my oldest child, who is a natural speller, writer and advanced reader.  My oldest is more whole to parts.  We have used MCT and CAP Writing and Rhetoric with him (with plans to use Warriner's next year for grammar, and we love it.  My youngest son, however, seems to be more of a parts to whole learner and resists most writing activities, especially narration.  I just don't see MCT being a good fit for him.

 

I was planning to use A Beka grammar with him this year as he is my workbook kid (he uses their math), but we ended up using some of the Good and the Beautiful curriculum, level 2 this year along with WWE2.  He likes me to show him what he has to do, and he likes to check it off and move on.  He doesn't like a lot of contemplation or 1800's agriculturally based stories, hence the hating of narration.  I know many writing programs start around third or fourth grade, such as MCT and CAP, but I am thinking we will hold off on the formal writing until fourth grade and keep up with small writing assignments and WWE.

 

As I think and start to research what I want to do with him though, I go back and forth.  Would a more traditional, formulaic program work better with his engineering mind, or should I stick with more of the classical methods and push him a little more?  I truly LOVE CAP writing, so I thought of pairing it with their new grammar program.  I like that it teaches analysis and diagramming, and I think diagramming is important, especially for this child.  Should I stick with Writing and Rhetoric and pair it with a nuts and bolts grammar program such as A Beka?  Or maybe a different writing program such as IEW? Rod and Staff is in the back of mind, but I personally think it looks boring and outdated, and would prefer the color of A Beka as they are similar.  I considered VIE, but it's pricey.  FLL was not a hit with him as oral lessons are not his cup of tea, and I hesitate to use it again with him.  

 

I just keep thinking in circles on this one and would love some feedback.  CAP writing, CAP grammar, A Beka grammar, Rod and Staff, IEW or something else?   What say you??  

 

Which component of "language arts" are you looking for? ABeka and R&S are not just grammar; they are also composition. So are you looking for grammar? If you want only grammar, then I'd recommend something like Analytical Grammar, or Easy Grammar.

 

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

If I used R&S, I'd use it for writing and grammar. This is probably my least favorite choice of ones I'm considering.

 

If I used A Beka, I'd just use it for grammar and do something else for composition.

 

He is reading easier chapter books well this year. He just read the Narnia books, so his reading is fine, just his spelling. He still has a few occasional letter reversals, but his doctor is not worried at this point because he is improving and just turned eight. I just wanted him to practice more phonics sounds. AAS is written for dyslexics anyways. He is doing well with the Good and the Beautiful, except for art narration where he practically shuts down and whines till I force something out of him. I don't know that I want to continue with this though. I don't know if the all in one approach includes enough grammar as they advance. We are just starting level 2 of WWE. He does ok with it, but it's not his favorite. He did fine with Level 1, but he sometimes whines with it. He can write a paragraph from a writing prompt if it interests him.

 

We did WWE with my oldest too until we switched over to CAP writing in late third grade. I just do not feel he is ready for CAP yet, but he may be next year. Trying to navigate what is maturity, and what is his learning style.

 

I have considered WWS too, but then what for grammar? I really don't think FLL is a good fit for either of us. Advanced grammar has too much teacher discussion for my liking too. In FLL, she says, repeat what a noun is 3x, and he whimpers and finally does so grudgingly while we both want to poke pencils in our eyes.

 

We've used Shurley before too, but I got burned out on it.

 

Thank you all for your help!

Edited October 27, 2017 by AdventuresinHomeschooling

[HomeAgain]

Throwing this out there - we're currently using ELTL.  In level 3, er, C now, it teaches diagramming and beginning writing skills (moving from oral to written narration).  There's no spelling so we do our own, but the rest is pretty solid. 

[momtofive]

Since you mentioned him liking the workbook format, have you looked at CLE Language Arts? They have lightunits (thin workbooks) the kids work through. They include gramnar, as well as spelling, penmanship, and writing. At first I thought there's no way I want everything in one book, since I preferred a different spelling or handwriting, but their english grammar is excellent and we just skip past the very small sections for spelling, penmanship and writing, using what we like for those. The grammar is where they shine, in our opinion.

 

We also *LOVE* CAP'S W&R series! :) We run these two side by side doing a lesson a day (skipping the spelling, penmanship, and writing in CLE). These two programs actually work really well together. Can't say enough about this writing program, though....simply love it! ;)

 

I know you didn't originally mention CLE as a choice, but it's worth looking into, and is fairly inexpensive for such a comprehensive program. Best wishes! ;)

Edited October 27, 2017 by momtofive

[Clemsondana]

Have you tried MCT with you son? I ask because he sounds a lot like my son - a reluctant writer, very smart but struggling to explain what he read (he'd get so bogged down in details...). We didn't find it until he was a little older, but MCT is what finally helped him to learn how to organize writing. The silly MCT stories appealed to him (even though I found them kind of annoying). The other thing that helped us was that there isn't much writing in the earliest levels and we can move at whatever pace makes sense...for us, that means that we fly through vocabulary, but move more slowly through writing. Anyway, if you've tried it and it didn't work, ignore this comment. I've been surprised sometimes by what worked for my kids, and MCT has been a favorite for both of mine, despite their wildly different styles and temperaments.

[Pen]

He is reading easier chapter books well this year. He just read the Narnia books, so his reading is fine, just his spelling. He still has a few occasional letter reversals, but his doctor is not worried at this point because he is improving and just turned eight. I just wanted him to practice more phonics sounds. AAS is written for dyslexics anyways....

 

I have considered WWS too, but then what for grammar? 

 

 

If he can read Narnia series, then, he probably is not dyslexic. But, no, IME AAS generally is not an appropriate program to use with dc who actually are dyslexic.  

 

WWS: Writing With Skill?  For an 8yo?  I don't think so.  If you try it and that actually works, I'd love to hear about it though.

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

Oh no! I would use WWE the next 2 years and THEN do WWS. He's definitely not ready for that yet.

 

We use MCT with my oldest, and we like it. We are doing voyage this year. It's very whole to parts though, and I don't know if it would be the best fit for my next son. I feel like he's more parts to whole. He's so different from my oldest who definitely needs the big picture. Maybe you're right though, and I'm overthinking it. I had planned to look at Grammar Town with him at the end of this year since we have it. He does like silly things. Hmmm...

If he can read Narnia series, then, he probably is not dyslexic. But, no, IME AAS generally is not an appropriate program to use with dc who actually are dyslexic.  

 

WWS: Writing With Skill?  For an 8yo?  I don't think so.  If you try it and that actually works, I'd love to hear about it though.

  

Have you tried MCT with you son? I ask because he sounds a lot like my son - a reluctant writer, very smart but struggling to explain what he read (he'd get so bogged down in details...). We didn't find it until he was a little older, but MCT is what finally helped him to learn how to organize writing. The silly MCT stories appealed to him (even though I found them kind of annoying). The other thing that helped us was that there isn't much writing in the earliest levels and we can move at whatever pace makes sense...for us, that means that we fly through vocabulary, but move more slowly through writing. Anyway, if you've tried it and it didn't work, ignore this comment. I've been surprised sometimes by what worked for my kids, and MCT has been a favorite for both of mine, despite their wildly different styles and temperaments.

[8filltheheart]

Do you need an actual writing program? Would you feel comfortable pulling copywork selections from his reading and using the copywork to teach grammar and writing?

 

My 2nd grader is pretty advanced. This yr I have been making up sentences based on what she is reading. I started off this yr playing games based on the copywork with her for learning nouns and verbs. She has mastered nouns (and has surprised me by intuitively understanding ideas are nouns), action verbs, adjs, and advs. It has been very low key and fun. If I am busy and don't plan on doing grammar with her, she begs me to. :) (Pretty hard to say no to that!)

 

I also use copywork to cover sentence structure and mechanics.

 

The advantage is that there are no boundaries. You can make things as simple or as complicated as you want in order to directly meet their needs.

Edited October 28, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

Do you need an actual writing program? Would you feel comfortable pulling copywork selections from his reading and using the copywork to teach grammar and writing?

 

My 2nd grader is pretty advanced. This yr I have been making up sentences based on what she is reading. I started off this yr playing games based on the copywork with her for learning nouns and verbs. She has mastered nouns (and has surprised me by intuitively understanding ideas are nouns), action verbs, adjs, and advs. It has been very low key and fun. If I am busy and don't plan on doing grammar with her, she begs me to. :) (Pretty hard to say no to that!)

 

I also use copywork to cover sentence structure and mechanics.

 

The advantage is that there are no boundaries. You can make things as simple or as complicated as you want in order to directly meet their needs.

If he were my only kid or one of two, I'd probably be able to do this, but I am homeschooling three kids in the midst of a lot of transition with a toddler and teaching adjunct college courses.  I'd prefer something planned out for me.  He does know basic nouns and verbs and plays MadLibs, etc., but I need a plan for this.  Something my husband could even pick up and teach if he needed to.  Otherwise, it will get done haphazardly.

[quietchapel]

R&S is really good. It's not 'fun', but it's good. The TM's are like gold; with all the drill built in, the kids know grammar and format writing inside out.

[strawberryjam]

My kid sounds the same as yours. Even though Voyages in English is pricey, I would consider looking into that if I were you. I've checked out all of the other options you've mentioned and none of them was even close to being a good fit for my kid. Voyages in English seems the most promising. We're trying it out now. We also have tried out Junior Analytical Grammar and it's also excellent! Over the summer I did Junior Analytical Grammar together with Montessori grammar symbols and that was a big hit. Great for the visual/hands-on learner!

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

My kid sounds the same as yours. Even though Voyages in English is pricey, I would consider looking into that if I were you. I've checked out all of the other options you've mentioned and none of them was even close to being a good fit for my kid. Voyages in English seems the most promising. We're trying it out now. We also have tried out Junior Analytical Grammar and it's also excellent! Over the summer I did Junior Analytical Grammar together with Montessori grammar symbols and that was a big hit. Great for the visual/hands-on learner!

 

You know, I actually own Jr. AG that came with some bundle I won a while back.  Maybe I should look at it.  ha!  :laugh:

 

I actually really love the look of VIE.  I was strongly considering it when we were at a charter last year, but it is so very pricey!  

 

I always look at R&S because everyone raves about it, but it just looks so very dry and old-fashioned, and I really like grammar! If I do try it, at least it's inexpensive.  I am considering their spelling to follow up AAS.  

 

sigh...so many choices.  I'm probably overthinking it.  This child is so different from me though, and that makes me overthink everything with him.

[Raifta]

DS, who is now in grade 5, although a young grade 5, was in much the same boat in grade 3.  We took it slow and easy in grade 3, finishing off AAS 4 and 5 and starting ELTL 3 (because I happened to have gotten it in a bundle with some other things) and working our way through Bravewriter's Jot it Down.  I have to say that BW was a big hit with him and I think it got him over the hurdle of thinking that writing was only a way for me to torture him.  

 

It was a marked contrast to his older sibling who was whizzing through MCT and CAP W & R in grade 3.

 

We moved on to 8FillstheHearts's Treasured Conversations program in grade 4, which was a good way to guide him through turning summaries into paragraphs and then started MCT halfway through grade 4 - by that time he was ready for it and quite enjoys it (we are still working on the first level).  We are also still continuing with Bravewriter - the Partnership Writing program now.

 

I still haven't considered using CAP with him though.  Maybe next year.

 

It was hard to figure out how to go about things with DS for me too, as he is very different from me and DD.  The above what seems to have worked for us but it took a lot of trial and error to figure things out - as I'm sure it might for you too!  

 

 

[Pen]

 

 

Oh no!  I would use WWE the next 2 years and THEN do WWS.  He's definitely not ready for that yet.

 

We use MCT

 

 

I like MCT.  It seems to me to be fairly parts to whole in so far as it starts with sentence and works to paragraph and then essay.

 

Of the options you've mentioned it is the one I'd go for.

[TKDmom]

If you already have MCT, I would try out Grammar Island with him, and keep going with WWE for copywork. I'm not a fan of the narration in the WWE workbooks. I found myself trying to coax my kids into giving the "right" answer.  I did much better with CM-style narration on our read-alouds. Or even just asking one kid to refresh everyone's memory on where we were in the story before we start the day's reading.

 

If you love CAP, but don't think he's ready for it yet, you can wait. It won't be the end of the world to start in 4th grade. I used Narrative I and II with my 5th grader last year, because that's where he needed to be. To me, you as a teacher have to love what you're teaching. If you want to poke your eyes out, your ds will pick up on that. If you are having fun, he will do better with it, even if he doesn't quite get it all. I really love CAP too. The progression and scaffolding are great. I can't see a dryer program like R&S being a good fit for you. It's a good program, and it gets the job done, but so much repetition and not enough allowing kids to spread their wings and have fun with writing, IMO.

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

If you already have MCT, I would try out Grammar Island with him, and keep going with WWE for copywork. I'm not a fan of the narration in the WWE workbooks. I found myself trying to coax my kids into giving the "right" answer.  I did much better with CM-style narration on our read-alouds. Or even just asking one kid to refresh everyone's memory on where we were in the story before we start the day's reading.

 

If you love CAP, but don't think he's ready for it yet, you can wait. It won't be the end of the world to start in 4th grade. I used Narrative I and II with my 5th grader last year, because that's where he needed to be. To me, you as a teacher have to love what you're teaching. If you want to poke your eyes out, your ds will pick up on that. If you are having fun, he will do better with it, even if he doesn't quite get it all. I really love CAP too. The progression and scaffolding are great. I can't see a dryer program like R&S being a good fit for you. It's a good program, and it gets the job done, but so much repetition and not enough allowing kids to spread their wings and have fun with writing, IMO.

Thank you!  I am thinking of looking at Grammar Island at the end of this year with him for fun because I think we will finish GAB early.  I also did Narrative last year with my fifth grader, so that is not too concerning to me.  I wouldn't start CAP with him until fourth because I don't want to turn him off by starting too early.  I do love CAP.  The more I see of it, the more I just like it.  It's enjoyable to me, and we've done some wonderful stories and writing and had fun conversations with it.  I like MCT too, but I don't think it will have enough grammar practice for him.  Maybe just a fun supplement from time to time or maybe just do their vocab and poetry.  It's not his natural subject, and I think he will need some repetition in the grammar.  Plus I really do want some diagramming.  

 

SO - I really think I will try out CAP with him next year and keep with WWE this year.  But I am still mulling over grammar a bit.  I'm going to read through the Jr AG program I already own, but I'm leaning toward an Abeka workbook for a few years because he really is the kid who likes colorful workbooks and just wants you to tell him what to do and get it done.  It's thorough, complete and has plenty of practice for him, even if there are other programs people like more.  I like teaching it, and he thought it looked great.  Looked some more at Rod and Staff on a deeper level, and I can see why people like it.  It is thorough.  Still considering it, but this particular child is so sick of agricultural stories and discussions.  lol!  If only it were full of sentences about ninjas and outer space!

 

This really was very helpful for me in mapping out my options for next year and helping me see where we are going this year.  I really appreciate all of the responses.