Kids Halloween costumes and race

[nixpix5]

This is all so utterly ridiculous. Why don’t we just separate into our different ethnicities and not interact lest we somehow offend one another. No, actually, it’s just we white folks that have to worry about being offensive. I swear the world has gone insane with everyone looking for reasons to be offended at the drop of a hat.

Actually though this has been happening quite a bit on undergrad campuses. I recently read a really good article based on longitudinal data. We appear to be segregating ourselves more now than ever in history and it isn't due to racism, it is due to fear of offending another race or culture unintentionally and experiencing the relational consequences. I had noticed this some on one of our major college campuses but I hadn't really given it deep thought.

[itsheresomewhere]

There is always going to be something that just peeves someone and now they are out to pee in everyone's wheaties. I swear it feels like we are going backwards some days. 

[SKL]

And FTR one of my kids is going to be a ninja for Halloween.  No, she is not Japanese.

[SKL]

And another thing.  As the mom of a child of color - indigenous Central American - I remember the thrill among Hispanics, international adoptees, and my own kids when Princess Elena came out.  At last, a princess that looks like us / our kids!  The expectation being that Elena would rise to the popularity levels of Elsa and Anna (though that did not happen) - that our kids would see other children happily dressing up and pretending to be Elena, and feel proud.  Nuts.  Now I hear pretty much nobody else in our community is allowed to play Elena.  I fail to see how that's going to help Hispanic kids.

[nixpix5]

And FTR one of my kids is going to be a ninja for Halloween. No, she is not Japanese.

My boys spent 4 years doing as some variation of a ninja. Good fun! :)

 

My friend sent me a spoof last week about picking a costume that doesn't offend someone going as far as "you cannot be a dog because you will offend PETA for wearing the skin of our canine friends" and stuff like that. It was over the top but I could see the evolution of societal thought in that direction. My friend said it will be no time at all before the push is for no costumes and to just go as yourself because you are the best you and you shouldn't be anything else. Can you you see it as a trending hashtag?

 

It does make me wonder when this will hit the drag queen community. Not transgender community but drag queens specifically. Females have been repressed by men so most would say they have had more power and women are a vulnerable group. So why can they wear women's clothes and pretend to be Cher, Madonna and the like?

 

I think we are doing a tricky balancing act in this country that is going to blow up in our faces at some point.

 

My kids are going as Doctor Who characters so hopefully nobody is offended.

[nixpix5]

And another thing. As the mom of a child of color - indigenous Central American - I remember the thrill among Hispanics, international adoptees, and my own kids when Princess Elena came out. At last, a princess that looks like us / our kids! The expectation being that Elena would rise to the popularity levels of Elsa and Anna (though that did not happen) - that our kids would see other children happily dressing up and pretending to be Elena, and feel proud. Nuts. Now I hear pretty much nobody else in our community is allowed to play Elena. I fail to see how that's going to help Hispanic kids.

Yes! This is EXACTLY what I was referring to previously. It hurts those who are vulnerable the most. Now it will be forever before Disney decides to have another Hispanic princess. Heartbreaking.

[laundrycrisis]

IMO it’s racist to say that a child can’t dress as a character they like unless they are a specific race. I have no use or respect for that kind of “sensitivityâ€.

 

And as far as cultural appropriation goes, I’m all for people of all backgrounds enjoying the beautiful/fun/delicious offerings of other cultures. I don’t believe that any group owns anything.

Edited October 24, 2017 by laundrycrisis

[Caraway]

And another thing. As the mom of a child of color - indigenous Central American - I remember the thrill among Hispanics, international adoptees, and my own kids when Princess Elena came out. At last, a princess that looks like us / our kids! The expectation being that Elena would rise to the popularity levels of Elsa and Anna (though that did not happen) - that our kids would see other children happily dressing up and pretending to be Elena, and feel proud. Nuts. Now I hear pretty much nobody else in our community is allowed to play Elena. I fail to see how that's going to help Hispanic kids.

My (white) daughter is going as Princess Elena this Halloween. [emoji4]

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wathe]

This can be a tricky thing, especially for kids' costumes.

 

I think it's probably obvious to most of us that generic racial costumes that rely entirely on negative stereotypes are just plain racist:  generic "Arab terrorist", or generic "Gangsta Rapper" or generic "Sexy Indian" (and "sexy" anything really, but that's another thread) are a few appalling examples that come to mind.

 

I think a good general rule to follow:  It's OK to dress up as a particular famous person, historical figure or character.   It is not OK to dress up as a generic racialized person or stereotype of a race or culture.  So, Moana is OK, but generic Polynesian Lady would not be OK. 

 

One must take extra care regarding extra sensitive issues:  black face is never OK, sacred/religious items never OK (First Nations feather head dress, polynesian sacred tattoos). 

 

IMO, where it gets most tricky is where the sensitive issue/sacred item category intersects with famous person/character.  (Or when a particular character is actually based on a stereotype.)  I think it would be very difficult for a white person to pull off a sensitive costume of a famous historical First Nations person/character, for example - how does one visually portray oneself as Pocohontas or Sacagawea or Sitting Bull without crossing a sensitive issue/stereotype/sacred item line or relying on stereotypes to build one's costume?  For this reason, I think some costumes are best avoided by whites, even thought that may seem unfair.

 

Crimson Wife's DD's "Chinese Princess" costume situation is also difficult:  It sounds like her daughter was invited by a member of the minority culture to dress this way and was accompanied by a member of the minority culture while dressed this way.  So somehow this feels OK.  But if the very same costume were chosen and worn solo by a white kid dressed as a generic Chinese Princes, it would feel like appropriation to me, I think.  Similarly, if I (white woman) am invited to be a part of a Hindu wedding as a bridesmaid, I wear a sari, because I've been invited to and the context is culturally appropriate (not appropiative).  But for me to wear the very same outfit as a Hallowe'en costume (dressed up as a generic Hindu woman) it would be appropriation.   So context matters. 

Edited October 24, 2017 by wathe

[MeghansMom]

My daughter is just as pale as I am and several years ago when we went to BBB at the Magic Kingdom, she wanted to be Tiana. She was Tiana and I don't care if anyone had a problem with it.

 

Tiana is one of my daughter's favorite princesses. She likes how hard working she is, that she does not quit, and thinks she is the most beautiful princess of them all.

 

IMO, some people need to just get over themselves.

 

 

[Tanaqui]

I swear the world has gone insane with everyone looking for reasons to be offended at the drop of a hat.

 

I think it's more like "People admit that these things were always offensive, and some other people are offended because don't want to use good manners."

 

Nobody is saying "Don't dress up like Tiana or Moana". They're saying "Do it without blackface" and "Oh, and seriously, those tattoos are not okay to steal".

 

As far as the tattoos go, it's the difference between "dressing up like a soldier" and "stealing Grandpa's Purple Heart to dress up like a soldier".

 

[Tanaqui]

Or all the anti-Catholic caricatures like "slutty nun" Halloween costumes. We put our big girl pants on and ignore them.

 

So you can ignore people who make fun of your ethnicity or religion? So why is it that when other people ask you not to make fun of their ethnicity or religion, you neither go along with it nor ignore them? Sounds to me like you're looking for a reason to be offended here. It's not like the PC police will literally write you a ticket just because you dress up. And since you've made it abundantly clear that you don't care about offending others, why do you care if they tell you that you're being offensive?

 

[marbel]

It's a Disney princess who is a fantasy character with special powers which never existed.  Who cares what her skin color is ....

 

The first time my kid told me she wanted to be Ginny Weasley, I wondered what to say.  (My kids look more like Pocahontas or Dora the Explorer.)  I asked other international adoptive parents, and they said "get her a Ginny Weasley costume."  So I did.  Big whoop.

 

Some years ago, when Hannah Montana was popular, I attended a Halloween event in a predominately black neighborhood.  Probably 75% of the little  girls at that event - black, Asian, white - were dressed as Hannah, down to the blond wig.  It was pretty cute to see them all.  I'm not a fan of HM nor of Disney, particularly. But I'm a fan of seeing little kids have innocent fun.  Maybe it's different because HM is not a real person, but I don't think of any Disney princess as a real person either (even if they are based on a person).

Edited October 24, 2017 by marbel

[marbel]

I think it's more like "People admit that these things were always offensive, and some other people are offended because don't want to use good manners."

 

Nobody is saying "Don't dress up like Tiana or Moana". They're saying "Do it without blackface" and "Oh, and seriously, those tattoos are not okay to steal".

 

As far as the tattoos go, it's the difference between "dressing up like a soldier" and "stealing Grandpa's Purple Heart to dress up like a soldier".

 

But someone is saying it.  That's how this thread started.  

[Daria]

Or all the anti-Catholic caricatures like "slutty nun" Halloween costumes. We put our big girl pants on and ignore them.

So you would let your daughter dress as a slutty nun?

[Cindy in FL.]

Exactly. It was said in this thread as well.

 

But someone is saying it. That's how this thread started.

[Daria]

You do realize that this is not something whites have a lock on, right?

No, absolutely not. But the acts of hatred that left an indelible mark on our particular society in modern times were, and continue to be committed disproportionately by white people against people of color.

[Laurie4b]

Globally? Nope. And at some point society in general gets to write a new chapter. I always wonder who profits from these discussions that they keep getting perpetuated in a cycle of endless outrage and offense and hurt. I have some guesses.

 

It is about majority culture, not skin tone.

 

In the US, majority culture is white. In the US, the pattern of systemic racism has been white. 

[Laurie4b]

Here is an analogy that perhaps can convey some of the what seems like "one way" thinking. (Talking not about personal bigotry, which cuts across race, but about systemic racism which is a product of power. It impacts individuals, but it is seen on a group level. I cannot commit systemic racism. I can individually benefit from it as a member of the majority culture and members of non-majority cultures can be disadvantaged by it): 

 

I have 4 sons, two years apart. When they were young, there was a lot of rough and tumble. Because they were pretty close in age, if one shoulder butted another, whether in play or frustration, no harm done. Their power to cause harm was more or less equal. 

 

Until 

 

the first child hit puberty. Then I had a boy in a man-body. And when that boy did the exact same behavior (say, a shoulder shove) suddenly the recipient of that went sprawling. The oldest child's reaction was to find fault with the one who went sprawling: "He's just acting. He's not hurt that badly. He did it to me first. He's being too sensitive,"  It took quite a while for the one with the man-body to own that he could no longer shoulder shove in play or frustration because his much greater power proportionally had a different impact.From his point of view, he wasn't doing anything different from his brothers so the problem must lie with them.  The oldest hadn't somehow become mean and the youngers somehow more easily upset. The difference was the greater power that the oldest didn't yet realize was different. Dh was constantly saying, "You use your strength to help your brother." It eventually sunk in. :) 

 

When many members of a majority culture don't realize how disproportionately greater their power is, it can cause offense when members of the non-majority culture are saying ouch. It's pain,  not oversensitivity. 

[Word Nerd]

It’s often someone in the majority culture presuming to speak for the minority and telling others what hurts them, though.

[JFSinIL]

If little kids do not see race and want to dress up as Moana or Katherine Johnson or any heroic hero or heroine of any hue - great!  Isn't that part of what we want, kids wanting to emulate heroic figures without  seeing race/color? 

 

You had little boys wanting to be the powerful Elsa for a time, and I know some girls who went out as Indiana Jones. 

 

I do see the reason why Maui is a problem - the tattoos. Unfortunately that is a big part of the character/costume so hard to dress as him w/o them.  And I would not put dark make-up on pretend Katherine Johnson....or white pancake on a dark child wanting to be Elsa.  You make-believe you are your hero in your own skin, kiddos.

Edited October 24, 2017 by JFSinIL

[Cindy in FL.]

I’m sorry, but the outcry of “you’ve offended me†has risen to levels which simply cannot be explained by what you and others are saying on this thread. We could always have global desegregation and even out the ethnic groups so that no one has the majority culture.

 

I’m not going to spend my life overthinking every single word that comes out of my mouth to the point that I am unable to interact with anyone lest I offend them. Frankly, there is a lot that goes on in my country that offends me, but I don’t go around complaining about it all the time, or suing people, or calling 911 because someone hurt my feelings. Oh, I forgot. I’m white so I have no right to be offended about anything.

 

 

Here is an analogy that perhaps can convey some of the what seems like "one way" thinking. (Talking not about personal bigotry, which cuts across race, but about systemic racism which is a product of power. It impacts individuals, but it is seen on a group level. I cannot commit systemic racism. I can individually benefit from it as a member of the majority culture and members of non-majority cultures can be disadvantaged by it):

 

I have 4 sons, two years apart. When they were young, there was a lot of rough and tumble. Because they were pretty close in age, if one shoulder butted another, whether in play or frustration, no harm done. Their power to cause harm was more or less equal.

 

Until

 

the first child hit puberty. Then I had a boy in a man-body. And when that boy did the exact same behavior (say, a shoulder shove) suddenly the recipient of that went sprawling. The oldest child's reaction was to find fault with the one who went sprawling: "He's just acting. He's not hurt that badly. He did it to me first. He's being too sensitive," It took quite a while for the one with the man-body to own that he could no longer shoulder shove in play or frustration because his much greater power proportionally had a different impact.From his point of view, he wasn't doing anything different from his brothers so the problem must lie with them. The oldest hadn't somehow become mean and the youngers somehow more easily upset. The difference was the greater power that the oldest didn't yet realize was different. Dh was constantly saying, "You use your strength to help your brother." It eventually sunk in. :)

 

When many members of a majority culture don't realize how disproportionately greater their power is, it can cause offense when members of the non-majority culture are saying ouch. It's pain, not oversensitivity.

[SKL]

Right, what about those in the "minority culture" who are pleased and proud when someone who looks like them is chosen as a hero by the majority culture?

 

And I also agree that the insistence on "hands off white people" is just divisive and only makes race relations harder.

[bolt.]

You do realize that this is not something whites have a lock on, right?

Of course not. All sorts of people groups can and have oppressed, enslaved, kidnapped and murdered various other peoples. The issues that are relevant to my choices are the ones that involve my skin tone and the historic and present realities of my culture and country.

[SKL]

And keep in mind that, at least in my house, it's the kids who are saying who they want to be for Halloween / dress-up.  I'm not going around telling my kids they need to dress up like someone from another culture.

 

When I was a kid, it was Spiderman, Superman, Sabrina the Teenage Witch.  We wanted to be superpowers!  Wearing a costume made us feel powerful / beautiful!  Isn't it good that nowadays, many kids from the "majority culture" feel like pretending to be Tiana or Elena or Moana makes them feel powerful / beautiful?  For those of us who remember some of the uglies of racism that have now mostly expired, that's a great thing.

[Cindy in FL.]

No, it’s different because HM is white. Anyone can be HM because of that. It’s white kids that don’t have that same freedom. We have to continue raising our children to live in the past of the aggregious sin of slavery in the US. And it was aggregious. It doesn’t matter that our children and grandchildren had nothing to do with that. Children of color have to be told that their white friends can’t dress as characters like them, but that they can dress as anyone they want. Because white people are bad. White children have to be taught that they can’t dress as characters of color, because we used to own people of color and we are bad and will pay for that unto generation after generation.

 

That is so harmful, in my opinion. It plants seeds in the minds of all children, keeping them from just loving one another.

 

Some years ago, when Hannah Montana was popular, I attended a Halloween event in a predominately black neighborhood. Probably 75% of the little girls at that event - black, Asian, white - were dressed as Hannah, down to the blond wig. It was pretty cute to see them all. I'm not a fan of HM nor of Disney, particularly. But I'm a fan of seeing little kids have innocent fun. Maybe it's different because HM is not a real person, but I don't think of any Disney princess as a real person either (even if they are based on a person).

[EMS83]

<snip>

 

Crimson Wife's DD's "Chinese Princess" costume situation is also difficult:  It sounds like her daughter was invited by a member of the minority culture to dress this way and was accompanied by a member of the minority culture while dressed this way.  So somehow this feels OK.  But if the very same costume were chosen and worn solo by a white kid dressed as a generic Chinese Princes, it would feel like appropriation to me, I think.  Similarly, if I (white woman) am invited to be a part of a Hindu wedding as a bridesmaid, I wear a sari, because I've been invited to and the context is culturally appropriate (not appropiative).  But for me to wear the very same outfit as a Hallowe'en costume (dressed up as a generic Hindu woman) it would be appropriation.   So context matters. 

 

FTR, not only Hindus wear saris.  As far as I understand, it's cultural, not religious.  But it's also probably complicated (I'll probably go look it up later, now that I'm curious).

 

 

Actually though this has been happening quite a bit on undergrad campuses. I recently read a really good article based on longitudinal data. We appear to be segregating ourselves more now than ever in history and it isn't due to racism, it is due to fear of offending another race or culture unintentionally and experiencing the relational consequences. I had noticed this some on one of our major college campuses but I hadn't really given it deep thought.

 

I can't "like" this because I hate that it's happening, but I'm completely not surprised and this was why I wouldn't interact even in passing for a long time.  I grew up with the guilt thing, and it actually made me feel more distant and kept me more ignorant than I am now.  I'm still pretty ignorant, but starting from a "we're both ok," and staying open to personal education by real people in my actual physical space (presuming they aren't actually in my face ranting at me), seems to start to break down walls.  The last time I think I accidentally offended someone, it's because that fear of offending popped up again when I mentioned "black" guiltily in some non-skin related context.  I, of course, couldn't tell you the particulars of offense, but I could see it had a not-good effect.  I remember thinking "****, I did that thing."  It was an acquaintance from college, so I felt particularly bad.

 

ETA: I know that's sort of OT, so PM if you want, or start a s/o.  

Edited October 24, 2017 by CES2005

[Dmmetler]

And another thing. As the mom of a child of color - indigenous Central American - I remember the thrill among Hispanics, international adoptees, and my own kids when Princess Elena came out. At last, a princess that looks like us / our kids! The expectation being that Elena would rise to the popularity levels of Elsa and Anna (though that did not happen) - that our kids would see other children happily dressing up and pretending to be Elena, and feel proud. Nuts. Now I hear pretty much nobody else in our community is allowed to play Elena. I fail to see how that's going to help Hispanic kids.

When my DD was 5, The Princess and the Frog came out. DD had not gotten into princesses until Tiana, but Tiana, who was a regular girl who saved the worthless Prince's hide as a frog definitely resonated with a regular girl who loved frogs.

 

She was invited to a "Princess Party" by one of her cheer friends, who happened to be Black, and I asked the mom if it would be OK if DD dressed as Tiana, knowing that her DD was likely to be Tiana as well, since that was one of the major things that the two girls had bonded over. Her reply was "Honey, do you know how rare it is for little Black girls to see little White girls dressed up as a Black character or playing with a Black doll?" I'd say the Party ended up being more than half Tiana :).

 

I wish Disney had done Elena in a movie vs a TV show. Kids watch Disney movies a lot older than they do Disney animated TV shows.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Or all the anti-Catholic caricatures like "slutty nun" Halloween costumes. We put our big girl pants on and ignore them.

 

lol Yes, the Catholic Church has been so victimized.

[Cosmos]

And as far as cultural appropriation goes, I’m all for people of all backgrounds enjoying the beautiful/fun/delicious offerings of other cultures. I don’t believe that any group owns anything.

 

I do not know your cultural or religious background, but suppose you are Christian. Are you okay with people of other faiths or no faith at all play acting the sacrament of communion? Or dressing up as Jesus on the cross? If you are not Christian, please substitute images and symbols that you hold most sacred.

 

Many people find it quite painful to see that kind of use of their most cherished traditions. Whether it bothers you personally or not, the fact is it does bother many people.

 

 

As far as the tattoos go, it's the difference between "dressing up like a soldier" and "stealing Grandpa's Purple Heart to dress up like a soldier".

 

Great analogy!

[Aura]

It's Halloween. I don't think cultural appropriation applies on Halloween, because the entire point is to dress as something you're not: dress as something you'd LIKE to be, or dress as something you'd NEVER be. Just dress up and have fun.

 

Can you dress up offensively even on Halloween? Absolutely! It happens a lot. Every year. But not from choosing to dress up as any person or character of a different race or culture. The offense happens when dress up is done with mocking. Like blackface. Or done in a stereotypical, non-authentic way, like the person dressed up as a scary, wart-on-the-nose, green skinned witch or the slutty, skimpily dressed nun.

 

So, yeah, go ahead and dress as someone from different race. More points to you if you can do it in an authentic manner! Creative costumes that defy stereotypes are great for conversations on what x-y-z REALLY is. Halloween can be a great time for education, but it needs to be done in a positive manner, not in a negative, how-dare-you way.

 

For the record, in a broader sense, I'm of the opinion that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and even poor imitations can be used to open doors to education. I constantly tell my kids that we are in the age of information. Go look it up. Learn about it. We are not in a world full of isolated cultures and societies. Learn, share, and give credit to original sources. My views on cultural appropriation are still developing, too, but generally follow that same line of thinking. 

[SporkUK]

The Cosmo article reads like a large game of telephone, writing on the New York Post writing on an individual blogger mum and twisting her words for clicks. The original writer is mostly trying to think of a way of doing a Moana costume respectfully after her daughter fell into the Disney Princess deep end. Nowhere in the mum's original post is she telling others what they should do but writing out her own considerations and conversations with her child on the differences between Elsa and Moana. That was it. 

 

So yeah, it's a thing, by the media overblowing on an annual hot button issue to get clicks and wind people up on imaginary professionally offended and insane PC culture. Nowhere in the chain are any Polynesian people, it's all pointing fingers at who is better at being either morally conscious or indignantly unfazed by the supposed feelings of others. 

 

Really, having kids who love dressing up and costume design, this hasn't really come up. Yeah, there are some considerations - usually more about safety and materials - but there is a lot of dress up fun that has nothing to with all this and the hyper focus on it every year feels forced to me. It's like purposeful angst generated and flamed by the media to create divisiveness, distraction and a overly personal stake in something that does not exist on the scale the media attempts to portray. Or something.  

 

This happened to white people too, honey. But you don't hear Irish folks getting their panties in a bunch because of stupid caricatures like the Lucky Charms leprechaun...

 

I have heard Irish people complaining about English people using Irish stereotype costumes, but it's likely to be more relevant in England than in the US. It flares up locally every March ending with complaints of St. Patrick's vs St. George celebrations and which the council is giving space/funds to going well into April with a few blips around this time of year with Halloween and Guy Fawkes (and all the anti-Catholic rhetoric around that...). We still have Irish pubs where English people aren't exactly welcome and I know quite a few English people who will not enter the more open Irish pubs because they were taught that that is 'their' space and that it is important to respect that (to be fair, all my local pubs also have signs for match days on whether away supporters are welcome or not. Pub space is practically sacred and even more divisive than costumes).

 

Not exactly sure who is and is not wearing 'big girl pants' for this, but even when I don't get it as an American with only very distant Irish/English blood ties outside of marriage, I'm not going to argue with either side on how their heritage and living through The Troubles impacted their views and boundaries. Really, my spouse's family are among the most irreverent and anti-'politically correct' people I know, and I cannot imagine any of them thinking dressing up as Irish or making caricatures would be a good idea for kids nor anyone who thinks kids should dress up as 'slutty' anything. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

It’s often someone in the majority culture presuming to speak for the minority and telling others what hurts them, though.

 

Or is it that those in the minority are often dismissed until other voices join them?

 

 

[Xahm]

One party of the issue is that there are truly ridiculous people out there, a small handful. And those are the ones that make great click bait so we hear about them a lot. Because of this, we hear fifteen stories about some "whiny millennial from culture t" who got offended by something someone from culture x did. This leads us to think that culture t, particularly those awful millennials from culture t, are a bunch of whiners. After that, whenever we hear "offended" and "culture t," or minds jump right to the ridiculous situation, leading us to reject the claim without thinking.

Sometimes we need to take a step back. Some click bait articles said that it is always offensive for white people to dress as anyone of another race. Should we jump from there to assuming that all discussion about which costumes to avoid boils down to "white folks are the worst," or should we roll our eyes at the click bait and spend a few minutes actually being thoughtful and considerate of others?

[EMS83]

I think it's more like "People admit that these things were always offensive, and some other people are offended because don't want to use good manners."

 

Nobody is saying "Don't dress up like Tiana or Moana". They're saying "Do it without blackface" and "Oh, and seriously, those tattoos are not okay to steal".

 

As far as the tattoos go, it's the difference between "dressing up like a soldier" and "stealing Grandpa's Purple Heart to dress up like a soldier".

 

Except, "dressing up as a solider" is generic, and costuming as a generic individual from a minority group has already been determined a taboo in this thread.  So it has to be a specific, presumably outstanding individual.  Someone who won medals.  Do they not do the medals?  Even hand-drawn cardboard ones?  I mean, I'm not actually a fan of Halloween anyway, so if everyone stopped dressing up, I wouldn't be sad.  

 

Can we also remember that the source of the admonition in the OP came from Cosmo?  Want to run a demographics search on their staff and readership?  I'm honestly curious now, so I just might.

[Cindy in FL.]

We were members of an African American church for about 4 years. During that time, the only friends my kids had were children of color. We were welcomed and welcoming. We hosted gatherings at our home, and went to gatherings in their homes. Our kids were on the usher team and in the youth choir, and went to the annual gathering of all the AA church youth choirs. They were the only white people in a sea of hundreds of non-white faces. It was so not an issue for them or their friends. We formed deep friendships, and healthy relationships there. My dh was recently invited to give the sermon at the pastor’s 10 year anniversary. I think that children just naturally don’t focus on the differences of skin color. We adults are perpetuating the problem in my opinion.

[happi duck]

It’s often someone in the majority culture presuming to speak for the minority and telling others what hurts them, though.

This is why I like the article I linked earlier.

(https://thespinoff.co.nz/parenting/01-02-2017/how-to-dress-your-pakeha-child-up-as-maui-or-moana-without-appropriating-pasifika-culture/)

It is written by a woman who is an idigineous Fijian. I think she explains things well and does *not* say dressing up as Moana is forbidden.

[Lady Florida.]

if white girls can't dress as other minorities - do you see any double standard  if minorities can dress up as white girls?   

 

 

 

No. No double standard. As bolt pointed out, racism does not go both ways. 

 

I understand what you are saying. I get that "black face" is not okay, or stereotypes. What if your sweet little white blond haired child just LOVES a princess with a dark complexion, and she knows that kids make crayon drawings with accurate skin colors, and she's super bothered that she won't be accurately dressed up as the princess in question if she doesn't darken her skin to match? mama has already bought her a wig of the appropriate hair so why can't she make her skin darker? She asks mama to get her some dark powder in the makeup section and is just as pleased as she can be by looking like her idol. Shouldn't people consider the intention behind the dressup? People do not put on "black face" out of love for anyone. I'm probably going to bed here soon, so I don't think I'll be engaging in this conversation again until the morning.

 

You talk with her about it. This is the perfect example of what is known as a teaching moment.

 

There is a difference between treading lightly out of shame and treading lightly out of kindness.

 

 

 

Apparently kindness isn't something some people care about, not even those who call themselves Christian. When they say too bad or you can kiss my white a$$, there is no kindness being shown. None.

 

While the Irish and other immigrants to the U.S were treated badly at one time, the Irish slave is a myth that won't die.

 

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-03-17/curious-origins-irish-slaves-myth

 

My ancestors are Irish and Italian. My Italian great grandparents came here at the end of the 19th century, making me only 3rd generation American on that side. The Irish ones probably arrived in the middle of that century though we haven't been able to trace them. One cousin thinks they were illegal immigrants who went to Canada then sneaked into the U.S. That they and others like them were treated badly is a fact. However, several generations later no one looks at me and sees a "greasy Italian" or "shanty Irish". No one sees the descendant of undocumented immigrants. No one sees my ethnicity.They see an American white woman. People of color cannot say the same thing. No matter how many generations pass, they are still seen for their skin color. Though they're no longer slaves, they are still being treated differently because of their skin color. Why is this so hard to understand when people say "just get over it"?

Edited October 24, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[Cindy in FL.]

Yes, it does. People of color are no more excused for using racial slurs than white people. People of color are no more excused for targeting people of another skin color than white people against colored people.. People of color are no more excused for crime against white people than white people against colored people. I simply cannot understand why that is so hard to grasp. People of color are often very racist.

 

No. No double standard. As bolt pointed out, racism does not go both ways.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Cindy in FL.

[rjand6more]

Yes, it does. People of color are no more excused for using racial slurs than white people. People of color are no more excused for targeting people of another skin color than white people against colored people.. People of color are no more excused for crime against white people than white people against colored people. I simply cannot understand why that is so hard to grasp. People of color are often very racist.

 

 

This is not "racism".  It is racial discrimination.  A person of color can not be "racist", but they can exercise racial discrimination.  In all my research, they are basically the same thing.

A person of color being racist would be trying to further a white agenda.

 

The dictionary definition of racism is not accepted.

[Word Nerd]

Racism is a one way street -- it absolutely never "goes both ways" -- it only works one way: from people who have greater power to people who have lesser power.

 

 

No. No double standard. As bolt pointed out, racism does not go both ways. 

 

Not true. Systemic racism is not the only type of racism.

[Cindy in FL.]

How convenient.

 

The dictionary definition of racism is not accepted.

[gardenmom5]

having had a black trainer who bullied every white girl (frequently to the point they would quit), and was friends with every girl of color, and a Hispanic supervisor who was her friend so she could do not wrong - I would beg to differ that it can't go both ways.

 

eta; and lest you think I'm being dramatic - a black woman from another dept stopped by my desk one day to ask where the "b-h" was because she wasn't there.

 

No. No double standard. As bolt pointed out, racism does not go both ways. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2017 by gardenmom5

[Cindy in FL.]

I have seen quite a number of videos showing people of color making demands of white people with ranting/cursing/racial slurs galore. Attacking whites both verbally and physically. Reminiscent of the nasty behavior shown by whites in videos during the civil rirights movement and desegregation. They were definitely NOT calling for equality by any stretch of the imagination. They declared the superiority of their race and demanded their turn “on topâ€. That’s racism, pure and simple.

[Word Nerd]

Or is it that those in the minority are often dismissed until other voices join them?

 

I don't think it's exclusively one or the other. In some cases it's just virtue signaling.

[LinRTX]

rac·ist

ˈrÄsÉ™st/

noun

 

1. 1.

   a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.

   "the comments have led to her being called a racist"

   synonyms: racial bigot, racialist, xenophobe, chauvinist, supremacist More

    

    

    

adjective

 

1. 1.

   showing or feeling discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or believing that a particular race is superior to another.

   "we are investigating complaints about racist abuse at the club"

    

   You may not accept it but this is the definition of racism. 

 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Linda in TX

[maize]

I don't think it is wrong to dress as a cultural icon such as an animated movie character regardless of race.

[SKL]

Racial violence, discrimination, insults, insensitive imitations, and so on are committed by people of all backgrounds.  If it's wrong it's wrong.

 

That said, my kid requesting a ninja costume is not racism.  My allowing her to wear one is not racism.  This would be true whether my kid's skin was brown or white.

 

I do understand the concern about not using actual ethnic clothes or spiritual symbols in insensitive ways.  Regardless of the skin color of whatever original people used said clothes / symbols.  Rather than say "you are white so you don't get to copy that style," it would make more sense to say "Hey, those are religious / spiritual symbols - let's learn some more about them.  They are to be taken very seriously and not in play on Halloween."

[TravelingChris]

I am just so happy I live where I live.  The way to get over race is to talk with people over race. It is to see people as individuals and not as representatives of a race or ethnicity.  

 

As to systemic racism and advantages our ancestors got for their race--- well, mine got none.  My parents didn't have a mortgage so no advantage there and in Europe, they were imprisoned due to their ethnicity.  No advantage their either.  THey individually were one of a very small percentage that survived the gulag.  But I have experienced racism and scary racism at that.  My first experience was on a bus as the only white person and the bus driver decided not to let me off.  A black woman saw me ringing the bell with no response and she got up and rang the bell and he finally stopped.  She was not getting out but I was able to leave.  I was 13 and had no power at all. 

 

I totally reject the definition of racism on the part of all white people against everyone else here in the US.  I have seen blacks be racist against other blacks-  I was in a theater with a mostly black audience for the James Bond movie with Grace Jones (a beautiful very dark black woman).  There were loud shots of eewww and how could he kiss her-= she is so dark when he kisses her in the movie.  I was shocked by it.   Then in work situations, I heard racism by blacks against Hispanics and the other way around.  Also Asians against blacks and blacks against Asians.  

 

I think it would be very wise for everyone to stop talking about cultural appropriation.  Getting the best from different cultures and combining in new ways is a specialty of the US.  I think we need to step back.

[Amira]

I have seen quite a number of videos showing people of color making demands of white people with ranting/cursing/racial slurs galore. Attacking whites both verbally and physically. Reminiscent of the nasty behavior shown by whites in videos during the civil rirights movement and desegregation. They were definitely NOT calling for equality by any stretch of the imagination. They declared the superiority of their race and demanded their turn “on topâ€. That’s racism, pure and simple.

As several posters have already mentioned, the difference is the power and authority afforded to each group. These videos you've seen make no difference. They are not a threat. The people posting the videos aren't gaining political or legal power because of them. They don't have widespread support.

 

But we have seen, this very year, white supremacists marching and calling for whites to remain "on top" and they are being called fine people by very powerful politicians. The power differential is clear, or at least to me it is.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Amira