What percentage of homeschoolers do you see not educating to a minimum standard?

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don’t personally know any ATI/Gothardites, but I have seen them- at the same annual homeschool tests that my kids attended.

 

I do think that some problems are more regional in nature. And because of that, it bothers me when people talk about these problems as if they are universal. I feel the same way about public school issues.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FaithManor]

That sounds pretty bad. It seems from the replies that there are a few regional pockets of bad.

 

Are these private Christian schools? None of the Christian homeschoolers I have known have ever said anything negative about private Christian schools. (Generally, they just complain that they are too expensive for them.) And, I have known folks who don't read Harry Potter or use anything other than a plain hair clip and always wear dresses...

The parochial schools are Lutheran or Catholic. The people who believe this way do not believe Lutherans and Catholics (for that matter Epsicopal/Anglican, Orthodox, and now apparently UMC is included) are not Christians.

[Pen]

None that I've seen.  

 

Different ideas of what "minimum" is, maybe, especially in unschoolers, or some religious schoolers. And different abilities and problems amongst the children, such that some may not be capable of certain levels of education.  Even in a couple of families who I know did not register officially and were not having required stdzd testing for our state, the level of education the kids were getting was quite high. In one of the families cases particularly high in math since the dad was an engineer, and the kids very smart with one boy especially mathy though ASD.  In the other, both parents were elementary school teachers who felt they could do better without dealing with official "minimums."

 

Location: Oregon.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Nm

Edited October 23, 2017 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Arcadia]

A better poll question might be what percentage of homeschool students that I know personally do not appear to be being taught to his/her full potential.

  

Thing is, many homeschoolers are pulling kids out of traditional schools with the claim it can be done better at home.

My family did pull our kids out of public school because the acceleration our kids need are more than the school could accommodate easily without angering some parents and district people. My local public school actually does band better and their art is not bad too.

 

My kids are underachievers from a long line of underachievers on my side of the family. The aim is for my kids to not be school dropouts due to boredom and then getting into trouble.

 

I think it is very hard for a child to be taught to his/her full potential even if the child is willing. My husband and I have been keeping a lookout for mentors for our kids but even if the person has the subject expertise, the person may have personality crashes with our child who need that expertise/guidance. My oldest has personality crashes with so many music teachers due to his intensity and perfectionism and overly sensitive ears. He didn’t have problems with his music theory teacher because music theory is more straight forward.

[freesia]

I don't know any. I live in the Northeast US and interact with homeschoolers in two states. I also lived in western Canada when I began and didn't know any there either.

[ScoutTN]

None. I have never met a neglected or uneducated homeschooled student. I met one family years ago who openly discouraged their girls from considering college, but they still met the basic high school graduation requirements for our state in their education of all their children.  

 

All of the homeschooling families I know have their NT kids on track for college, if that is the path the student wants to go. Not all do, but they could. Those who have kids with LDs, on the spectrum, or other major health issues are doing a good job getting their kids' needs met. My state is low regulation. I live in the Bible belt and have lived in MS and VA. VA was in a college town with an extremely high percentage of highly educated adults, so not a typical sample. There is a wide range in educational philosophy, family size, amount of outsourcing, financial resources, and reasons for homeschooling among the people I know. 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by ScoutTN

[TravelingChris]

I put 1% but it is less than that actually.  I met some parents of kids who got expelled from school in NM who claimed to be homeschooling but admitted to doing nothing.  I didn't really considered them typical homeschoolers- these kids were troubled later teens.  Also, a girl who married my son'in-laws cousin seems to have been from one of these very sheltering families where education wasn't emphasized.  Her husband, also homeschooled in a more strict Christian background, did get a good education.  Did everyone do as much math as we did? No.  But I have met oodles of kids from public school who were also not doing well in math.  And the worse education failures I have seen were kids in public school- specifically one boy who was passed up to fifth grade not knowing how to read or do any math.  I managed to teach him to read but failed at the math.  The child was definitely low intelligence and it infuriatety me that because he was hispanic (though he spoke English), they would not put him in special services,  I don't know what happened to him in middle school or high school.  The passing along of children who haven't learned material from several grades back is horrendous.

[Melissa in Australia]

I haven't read a single reply. I voted other. Not one of my children have or will meet a standard. All my biological children have Dyslexia some mildly some profound, that is the reason why we homeschool. the twins will never reach a bench mark in anything. their IQ is below 70, they are years behind in gross and fine motor skills their brain is poorly wired, they have cognitive damage to things they were exposed to in utero.

 does any of this mean that we are poor homeschoolers ....... NO.. they would not be meeting standards at school either.

[FaithManor]

I haven't read a single reply. I voted other. Not one of my children have or will meet a standard. All my biological children have Dyslexia some mildly some profound, that is the reason why we homeschool. the twins will never reach a bench mark in anything. their IQ is below 70, they are years behind in gross and fine motor skills their brain is poorly wired, they have cognitive damage to things they were exposed to in utero.

does any of this mean that we are poor homeschoolers ....... NO.. they would not be meeting standards at school either.

((((hugs))) for what it is worth, I think when the phrase minimum standard is thrown out most people intend to mean for neurological children...no significant learning challenges.

 

It is okay, Melissa. You rock as a mom, just like ArcticMamma does for her little man.

[Crimson Wife]

I don't know any more because I've pretty much stopped being involved with larger HS support groups over the past couple of years.

 

If you had asked me a few years ago, I would've said that about half the "unschoolers" I knew IRL were bordering on educational neglect while the other half were doing a fantastic job facilitating their kids' self-directed learning. So maybe 5% or so.

 

I've never met any of the QF type HSers IRL. The religious HSers might be using some boxed curriculum that isn't my cuppa like Seton, Abeka, etc. but they weren't neglecting their daughters' education.

[MistyMountain]

I have definitely met some unschooling families that did extremely minimal 3Rs because

Johnny or Jane were not into it. I also was surprised at a orientation for new families how many were not expecting to do any actual teaching but it was mostly for teens though where things were not working well at school. I know one local crunchy Facebook group I was a part of talked about homeschooling a lot and there were discussions about being very child led and not worrying about much older kids not reading or having much math skills if they were not into it at the moment. I left that group years ago though because they were very judgemental if you were not an AP super parent. I actually see less of that nowadays. I would expect some to be below grade level and there is nothing wrong with that. A lot of the local homeschoolers do not test really great but that does not mean that they are not being taught to at least minimal standards. I bet a lot are homeschooled so their needs can be met because they were not at school. The schools did not test well either. I am more thinking those who do not do much of anything. I have no idea the percentage would be. I do not think it would be too high but I have ran into people.

Edited October 23, 2017 by MistyMountain

[EmseB]

I have never met a neurotypical public school student who was not meeting this basic standard (literate & graduating high school ready for community college). Never.

That's interesting because I've gone to three different community colleges in totally different areas of the country, all of which offered non-credit remedial courses in math and composition. The classes are full. And they are not full of just homeschooled kids or just non-traditional students. They have a lot of public school kids who can't pass the math entry exam into a college level math or writing class.

 

These are community colleges that have whole classrooms of kids coming out of public schools that have to remediate to be able to even take college math. Maybe in Palo Alto or somewhere similar this doesn't occur, but it's pretty common to find 000 level courses in most CCs these days.

[Janeway]

I had to say "other" because whenever I meet someone like that, I have nothing to do with them. Also, I do not think I can judge this as an outsider. I knew one family that did nothing and their child played video games all the time and I thought what they were doing should be illegal. Their child now has graduated college with honors..Cum Laude of a level, do not recall which one. I know a couple more in college whose parents didn't do much, but did someone, and left the kids to read a ton. They did math and some outsourced science and worldviews and such, but worldviews was one year. One of the kids told me he felt his parents should have taught him more rather than him working on his own. But his is about to graduate college with a 4.0, in an honors program at a large university. What I am saying is, I cannot be a good judge of who is doing a good job and who is not. 

[Janeway]

One other thing though..if we are going to say minimum standard being what the public schools do, well, I am in Texas and some schools do great but overall, pretty much all the ISDs have standards to fall back on that will allow everyone to graduate even if they did nothing all those years. With that as a minimum, I would then be able to say that no one could possibly be doing below standards.

[foxbridgeacademy]

I don't think I've ever come across anyone who wasn't educating their children in some way to a reasonable minimum.  I've known a lot of unschoolers and "casual schoolers"  who were IMO adequately educated.  Of course I have very little experience with religious HSers so no idea if their community has more or less issues then I've seen. 

[Guest]

I've been in homeschooling circles for two decades, and I can honestly say I was concerned only twice:

 

1. A QF mom of ten kids, oldest was 14. She was just completely overwhelmed and in a bad marriage. Last I knew, she kicked the husband out and enrolled the kids in school. They were behind, but not in a way that was insurmountable.

 

2. A friend of mine whose 16-month-old son died suddenly. For about two years she grieved with her other children, and hardly any academics were accomplished. But again, she picked up the slack and got moving eventually, and the older kids got caught up.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Kinsa

[EmseB]

It's funny because some people I'm extremely close to were Gothardites. The girls got the same education as the boys (Mostly Abeka and Saxon and whatever they could get their hands on, really). The girls were doing college prep work and parents funded college as they were able. The problems I have seen (in retrospect) with ATI were not academics. The academics were basic, decent, and girls did the same work as boys.

 

The flaky nonschoolers (NOT unschoolers by any stretch) that I've come across have been non religious people.

Edited October 23, 2017 by EmseB

[hepatica]

I have not met any homeschoolers here in CT that are not meeting minimum standards, but my sample is extremely limited and includes only college educated / graduate degree parents in a pretty affluent area. I have no doubt that there are very different circumstances in other areas. We are a no requirement state, but I would not be averse to some regulation, and I know of (though do not personally know) some cases of educational neglect in this state.

 

 

I am not surprised, because the standard math sequence in schools teaches fractions in 5th grade and then keeps students in a three year holding pattern, reviewing arithmetic with integers and fractions over and over and over again, until finally progressing to algebra in 9th grade (8th grade for "advanced" students). There is virtually no new material taught between 6th and 8th grade.

 

(I found this out the hard way when we had planned a sabbatical in Germany in DD's 6th grade year and I translated the curriculum for the math teacher to inquire which topics would be covered before our departure at Christmas, only to hear from the head of the math department that none of this would be covered before Jr high school.)

 

The math thing does not bother me quite as much. I think it is in large part a function of the quality of elementary math education. Kids don't really have arithmetic down by the end of 6th grade. But, I do not think there is a huge need to get to algebra before 8th grade. My DH has been teaching high school math for almost 30 years, so we talk about this a lot. He would much rather see kids strong in algebra, geometry and algebra 2, than to see these topics pushed in middle school. There is certain amount of maturity needed to keep work organized enough to do well in high school math, and many students do not have that maturity until they are 14, 15 or 16 years old (maybe that's a problem in itself, but that would be another topic). The push to improve math education has focused too much on getting more students to higher level math, than on providing quality education for those building blocks. 

[RoundAbout]

Never. I have homeschooled in 3 very diverse urban places - San Diego, Seattle, and DC area and I have never once met a homeschooler who I felt was failing their kids. We also roadschooled for many months and I met a family of 6 in an RV who seemed unschooly and unconventional but her oldest son had just been hired as a full park ranger at Dinosaur National park at 19 (almost unheard of), because of his thousands of volunteer hours and experiences across the US, and was working on his college degree part-time. I would consider that a success regardless of how much math and bookwork they did at home (and I really have no idea). 

[Rachel]

I don't know enough about how other people are homeschooling to answer the poll.

 

Of my friends who homeschool, all are aiming for a quality education. I don't think any of them are slackers. We really don't spend a ton of time talking about our overall education goals or how we are going about teaching them. When we talk school it's more about a specific situation or asking if we had used xyz curriculum and what we did/didn't like about it.

[MaeFlowers]

I voted other. I only have known three families well enough to know that info. Two were doing well, one family were non-schoolers. All boys. They are flat earth, chemtrails people. But, they enrolled their dc in ps this year. I was so happy to hear it.

[Lecka]

My ILs live in a nice school district, so we have an extra helping of "they could have just gone to public school." My little IL cousin has been driving for Uber. My little BIL did join the military, and is now pretty serious with a young woman who wants to live in her hometown, so he is looking at getting out of the military. We have no idea what he will do then, he worked at a grocery store and a fast food place before. Hopefully her parents can help him get a job I guess.

 

My husband is in the military, and we know quite a few people who have tried college and quit with it being too hard because they were behind from their prior education. It's true -- they all came out of public school. The homeschool graduates my husband has known in the military have also seemed to have a good education. Once again -- it's only my relatives who I think have been either neglectful or failing (as I think dropping out of online high school as a Junior is failing.... ).

 

Since for my own relatives they could have been fine going to public schools, we are resentful of it.

 

I think my sweet aunt got taken advantage of with a marketing scam kind of thing (where they get funding for my cousin enrolling and then didn't provide very much), and my ILs would have been neglectful with my little BIL in public school too.... they took him out of public school before because he wasn't doing his homework and they didn't want to deal with it; they put him in a non-academically-focused Christian school then for a year. Then nothing for two years. Then the Christian school let him come back and graduate, so he had a diploma to join the military.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Lecka

[Elizabeth86]

Let's see. I only know 2 homeschool families not counting myself. The first homeschooled her boys through elementary school and has sent them to ps for ms. She did a great job, they were very prepared and are doing great. She went above and beyond what would be the minimum. The other mom I know does not do the minimum from what I gather. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. When I was getting started I was asking about curriculum and she suggested dollar store workbooks and abc mouse. And this might be ok for K, but her ms and hs kids seem to be on that plan as well. She does and says a lot of things to make me suspect educational neglect. They don't unschooly in that cool way that they are learning all these neat not traditional things. They seem like an extra set of hands around the house kwim? Also, I could be wrong about it all and I hope I am.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Elizabeth86

[Xahm]

I know several boys, now men, who as young teenagers decided they weren't going to school any more, so their moms "homeschooled" them by buying a few books and saying "do that." Shockingly, they didn't. That's a really tough situation, though, for a family to be in. The solution would probably have best been started several years earlier. Those guys raise the percentage for me, but I don't know how to count them. Also, I've known several families who tried homeschooling for a year, didn't do much, and re enrolled their children. It doesn't seem quite like they should be given equal weight against those who do it right year after year or like they should be classed with those who refuse to change what is clearly not working. So I didn't vote.

[StartingOver]

Minimum is so subjective. I have seen many more that seem to me to be doing less than the minimum, in the last 5 years of so, in my area, in my opinion. It is hard to judge as we are very rigorous. I would say 1-2 percent are likely guilty of educational neglect. I personally know of 5 families who have been ordered to send children to public school, all of those children were years behind their peers. In all of those cases I don't believe the parents were teaching at all.

 

Edited to add: I see a lot of, "My child doesn't want to do XYZ", with a lot of replies like, "Oh, my child doesn't either so we are waiting till they want to." There seems to be a new way of thinking around my area that what they want to do just isn't necessary.

Edited October 23, 2017 by StartingOver

[DawnM]

I have no idea.  I try not to make too many assumptions.  I had a child with issues with school (ASD and LDs) and I am sure many judged me because he didn't start reading until  he was 9.  

 

There were a few who raised my eyebrow a bit, but not many.

 

What I have found interesting is the ones who were VERY rigorous, far more than I wanted to be, and seeing how their kids are turning out.  They aren't bad, but they aren't taking the path they were "prepped" for.  

[snowbeltmom]

I know  two families IRL who are not providing their children with an education that would be considered even remotely on-par with what their children would be receiving had they been enrolled in their public schools.  However, these families are not homeschooling for academic reasons. 

[FaithManor]

nm

Edited October 23, 2017 by FaithManor

[creekland]

That is an incredibly tricky question to answer. First, judging a person's potential is very difficult, even for the people closest to the kids, and second, it is also a question whether it is desirable to teach a kid to their full potential.

 

My DD graduated at age 17 with 32 college credits, fluent in two and proficient in a third language. We did math through multivariable calculus. But we could have spent more time on school. We could have schooled through summers. I could not have let her quit the piano. She could have been able to master a fourth foreign language. Perhaps she could have completed more college classes. Gone away to early college. I am pretty sure that I did not challenge her to her full potential, and I am happy I left her room for life without pushing her to the limit.

 

My DS is as intelligent as his sister, but a minimalist. He only completed 15 college credits and graduated at 18. He got to quit the piano after only three years. He is only fluent in two languages and dropped the third. I almost certainly did not educate him to his full potential, but chose to lower the expectations to only a  normal rigorous college prep education, for the sake of our relationship and to give him space to pursue his interests.

So according to your criterion, 100% of the students in my homeschool were not taught to their full potential. I consider my homeschool still pretty darned successful.

 

I disagree with your last statement.  I suspect what we're talking about here is their full potential for high school, not trying to cram in as much as they can possibly fit into their brains with no time to actually enjoy themselves with other pursuits. If this were the case, practically no student would pass the bar.

 

You've 100% (or higher) met what is expected of a neurotypical student for high school - even for gifted academic students.  They've reached "full" and are spilling over with more.  ;)

[katilac]

Voting and posting before I read replies. I voted "other," because there are really not many that I see not educating to a minimum standard.

 

There are some that may not be doing enough by my standards, some that are not really ready for college (when college was always the plan), but on the whole I think that would be the case if their kids were in public school as well, because the people who don't pick tough classes at home aren't likely to pick them at school, either. 

[Ellie]

I couldn't even begin to answer that question. I'm not a fly on the wall in other people's homes.

[katilac]

Okay, now I've read the replies. 

 

  I know a few families who it was a wake up call for, they upped their game after low scores.   

 

 

This is why I'm so torn on standardized testing. I live in a county that was always patting itself on the back about their good schools, until national testing became a big thing. People were horrified not only at the low scores themselves, but by the fact that they were on par with the "terrible" school district one county over. That wake up call was needed! As it is needed for some individuals.  

 

 

 And without exception, all are seriously behind in mathematics. None of the homeschooled highschoolers in my kids' group who have graduated completed four years of high school level math. 

 

Wow! That surprises me. Unless you are not considering pre calc an acceptable fourth year course?  Even then, I know homeschoolers who went through calc in high school, and certainly plenty who went through pre calc. Maybe I should be giving my locals more credit!

 

 

Only one family I know is very blase about education, but their children are very early elementary so that may or may not change.   

 

Depending on what you mean, I might have been regarded as very blase about education in early elementary. My attitude toward education was serious and informed, but my kids had quite short days with minimal seat work. They did many "educational" things that many people (including themselves, lol) would not see as schoolwork. 

 

This is probably because you don't live in the American Bible Belt, near large populations of Gothard/ATI families,  

 

I'm in the Bible Belt, but not ATI country. I haven't seen anyone shortchanging girls vs boys on education, although I did see one instance where a girl's desire for college was given lip service but no real support. I don't know if that was religiously based or not. Another family or two that would be fine with their girls getting married young and never having much of a job, but that also gave emotional and financial support toward college.  

 

 
I cannot imagine not doing algebra in 7th grade or so for a neurotypical kid. Why keep wasting time with review instead of integrating in more problem solving?

 

There are many, many NT kids who are not ready for algebra in 7th grade (at least not the way it's taught in America, I think a different approach might change that). Algebra was a two-year disaster for my oldest, lol. She started in 8th and didn't finish till 9th; she's now a math minor at a STEM school. I had to mention that for all of the parents who have kids who seemingly should be ready for algebra, but aren't: it doesn't mean they won't excel in math later! 

 

I'm curious how people know so much about the performance of other homeschoolers?   

 

It was always a popular topic of conversation whenever two or more homeschoolers gathered in my neck of the woods. I can probably still list most of the curriculum used by various families in my group, lol. I also did some classes and tutoring, but the basic info on texts and levels was open knowledge for almost everyone. 

 

It's funny because some people I'm extremely close to were Gothardites. The girls got the same education as the boys (Mostly Abeka and Saxon and whatever they could get their hands on, really). The girls were doing college prep work and parents funded college as they were able.  

 

Well, they aren't very good Gothardites  :lol:

 

Gothard is not a fan of college for boys or girls. 

 

 

[Loesje22000]

0

 

We have inspection here.

Those who don't pass the minimum bar twice, have to quit homeschooling and send their kids to a state accorded school.

[alisoncooks]

I have no idea. I try not to make too many assumptions. I had a child with issues with school (ASD and LDs) and I am sure many judged me because he didn't start reading until he was 9.

Yes this. As a mom of a 9 year old non-reader (or pretty close to it), I generally avoid academic talk.

[prairiewindmomma]

I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly over the last 10-15 years. 

 

I see few homeschooling families doing 4x4 (math, science, english, history) in high school well.  (And, frankly, it's a lot of work to do!)  Those that do tend to outsource to community colleges or outside courses.  A few use BJUP or other curricula lines that offer good teacher support.  In some instances, families are dealing with children with significant learning disabilities or health issues. I totally understand when the high school years look differently in those situations.  I likely have one of those myself.  But, it's frustrating to me when a parent's fear of inadequacy or lack of resources means that a child only makes it through Algebra 1 and the child wants to go to university.

 

I used to live some place with significant numbers of Anabaptist and Mennonite families.  The families pooled together and hired a teacher.  They actually do really well.  Most of the families where I used to live that "failed" would become frustrated with the public school, enroll their kid in K12, and then provide no more oversight to the children. There was no help or accountability.  I actually had to intervene (in conversation) with a friend who did just that...the kid had completed 3 weeks of work over a semester and the parent didn't see that they had any obligation to do more--it was the "kid choosing to fail"--never mind that the parent was too busy at the gym and cleaning house and working part time to sit down with the 5th grader to help them.  :cursing:  :cursing:  :cursing:

 

Here, where I see families struggling, I've noticed that parents are generally struggling financially (trying to work and homeschool) and that the parents themselves probably function at a late elementary/early jr. high level of education. 

 

I think there's a time/money/resources trade-off in homeschooling. One leg of the stool can be weak--you're short on time, you outsource or buy pre-packaged. You're short on money, you string things together from resources from the library or the internet.  If you are weak educationally, you buy good resources, outsource, or hire a tutor.  When all three legs are missing from the stool, it is very hard to do well.

 

I've been looking at proficiency statistics from school districts.  In my current district, students perform really well.  In other districts---the ones with 15% of students proficient in math &/or reading---I just don't throw stones. Your kid can be physically safer if no better educated at home.

[Word Nerd]

How could anyone possibly answer this question without making a wild guess? You don't know what people are doing in their homes on a daily basis.

[ElizabethB]

I haven't read a single reply. I voted other. Not one of my children have or will meet a standard. All my biological children have Dyslexia some mildly some profound, that is the reason why we homeschool. the twins will never reach a bench mark in anything. their IQ is below 70, they are years behind in gross and fine motor skills their brain is poorly wired, they have cognitive damage to things they were exposed to in utero.

does any of this mean that we are poor homeschoolers ....... NO.. they would not be meeting standards at school either.

You are doing great! That is way more than their minimum.

 

I started the poll to find out numbers of people who were not educating well since a few posters seemed to see a lot but most of us don’t. It seems to be a regional problem, mostly tied to a cult.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Re. minimum vs. maximum standards.  A big reason i home educate is so that I can teach the kids I have.  I think that I meet minimum standards and then some.  At least ds's college thinks so.  (It is not a community college but he's in the two  year transfer track to transfer to a local university).  Having said that, I would not necessarily meet standards set by some on the high school board for  math and science even though ds is in a STEM track heading for a STEM degree.  Why?  Because we went in depth so that he could really learn the material before moving on and I have a child with low processing speed despite also being gifted.  He will get his degree eventually (provided of course that there aren't unforeseen problems that derail his plans).  Pushing kids to learn more and more so that they can tick off boxes doesn't mesh with my educational philosophy.  (Obviously some kids can do more quickly as well as in depth but my kids are not those kids.  And I think I am safe in saying that there is a documented problem with some kids being pushed harder than they should be and not really learning the material.) 

[Dmmetler]

I see it mostly in two areas

 

1) Child fails in school, parent pulls them out, and decides unschooling will solve all their problems. Kid gets to late teens and probably has some special interests and is happier, but is extremely behind academically because the underlying issue that caused the parent to homeschool still is present and has not been remediated. The child really, really needed some specialized instruction along the way that they lacked. Whether they would have gotten it in PS, though, is hard to say because usually they were pulled because they weren't getting it there, either.

 

2) Child starts failing in middle/high school and is defiant (usually in PS) and declares that all they want to do with their life is X, and they don't need Y academics to do X, and the parents buys it and lets the child completely control their own education. Except that kid isn't actually looking at what X requires, and often finds it hard to make that leap (for example, many cosmetology schools want a high school diploma from a Brick and Mortar school or a GED-and if a kid has a homeschool diploma and can't pass the GED, they're locked out of that track). Or they try to apply to college, but don't actually have enough credits to be competitive, even though they met state minimums (officially, you only have to have 2 credits of math to enter college in my state-but you have to have four to graduate from a PS high school, so 2 credits as a homeschooler simply isn't enough).

 

 

Most homeschoolers I know are falling behind PS in some areas and are ahead in others at various points. My DD was behind PS standards on writing for years, and we were ahead on other subjects largely due to doing them orally, but caught up on writing somewhere in late elementary/early middle. She's had less art and less group music than her PS colleagues-mostly visiting museums and the occasional homeschool class at a museum, but is ahead on music theory and music and art history. Stuff like that, I think, is a normal side effect of homeschooling, and is not harmful as long as the parent is aware of it and as long as it evens out long-term in the core academic areas.

 

 

 

 

[rainbowmama]

I am required to teach language arts by law. I am not required to follow common core standards by law. I don't think a lot of those standards for lower elementary school are appropriate. My oldest attended public kindergarten, so I have also seen what kind of work those kids produced while the teacher tried to implement those standards, and so I feel okay that I don't try. Perhaps my kids are behind. They are literate. They are at grade level or above at math. I have my own standards for their writing that they are meeting, and my kid who has taken standardized tests scored above average in language arts despite my disregard. 

 

We know a lot of unschoolers. As a minority faith family, we run with a lot of secular homeschoolers, and that skews pretty hard towards unschooling. I did meet an unschooling family who later put her kids in school and they were all placed a year behind in school even in a more low performing school district, but there was a lot going on in that family (poverty, divorce, two working parents). Most people i know who later put their kids in school, even if they were die hard unschoolers, did fine.

[prairiewindmomma]

How could anyone possibly answer this question without making a wild guess? You don't know what people are doing in their homes on a daily basis.

 

teaching in co-ops

tutoring children (and discovering there is no learning disability, just a lack of teaching)

proctoring ITBS, and later discussing the results (at the other parents' request)

talking with moms who want to come over and see your books (and they discover that explode the code 4 isn't for 4th grade)

talking with moms whose kids placed on the Compass test for community college--some do awesome (placed into Calculus 1), others are surprised that they place into remedial math (fractions/percents/decimals--the class before pre-Algebra)

 

I may not know what is going on on a daily basis, but if you've told me about what you're doing, shown me your resources, and I've worked with your kid more than a couple of times, I think I have *some* basis for forming an opinion about what you're doing.  Or, in one case, if your kid tells my kid that he hasn't opened his books in 4 months and he's been playing video games for 12 hours straight a day while his parents are at work (and his parents confirm it)....I count that as not being a wild guess regardless of the fact that I haven't worked with the kid.

[Mimm]

I answered other, because in truth, I don't know. I know people who use curriculum that I consider inferior but hey, that's maybe that's just me being judgemental. But I think low academic standards is going to be the thing that kills homeschooling, if anything does.

[boscopup]

People I know personally... Only two ever seemed to not be doing a basic minimum, and I think there were LDs involved. Later, the kids seemed to be fine, so I don't worry about it. A friend of mine has seen 12 year olds in co-op who couldn't read. Again though, LDs or lack of teaching? Not enough information to decide.

 

I live in an unregulated state (as of 2014, and before that we were required only to have a cover school and could choose a cover school that has regulations or one that didn't). No testing has ever been required by my state, nor a minimum amount of teaching to be done. The only requirement when we had to have cover schools was to report days absent. :p

 

Most homeschooling families I know of do a pretty good job. Many use Saxon and A Beka and get the job done. I'm in the Bible belt, but I don't know any Gothard/ATI folks.

[MinivanMom]

That's interesting because I've gone to three different community colleges in totally different areas of the country, all of which offered non-credit remedial courses in math and composition. The classes are full. And they are not full of just homeschooled kids or just non-traditional students. They have a lot of public school kids who can't pass the math entry exam into a college level math or writing class.

 

These are community colleges that have whole classrooms of kids coming out of public schools that have to remediate to be able to even take college math. Maybe in Palo Alto or somewhere similar this doesn't occur, but it's pretty common to find 000 level courses in most CCs these days.

 

I don't live in Palo Alto, but I'm in a high-tech area with very similar demographics.

 

I've been googling and digging around on the cc website and can't find official stats on this. So frustrating. I did find an article in our local paper from 2011 that says 40% of incoming students at the cc take at least 1 remedial class. Apparently they offer 3 levels of "developmental" English and 4 levels of "developmental" math. They quote the cc president as saying that the majority of those taking the "developmental" courses are older adults who have been out of school for several years, and then give a story about a guy starting cc in his 30's who had to take a single remedial math course. I would love to know the exact percentage of non-traditional students versus kids straight out of high school that place into remedial courses.

 

As far as people I know in real life, about half the homeschool parents with kids at the cc will openly say that their kid had to start in remedial classes. Sometimes I've had the kids themselves tell me. Public school graduates and parents always talk about the specific classes they are taking at the cc, where they are planning to transfer to, what they are planning to major in, etc. If they had to start in remedial classes, they aren't talking about it.

[HS Mom in NC]

Here's last weeks' question of the week from my homeschooling group (125 member families.) Can a parent who struggles with procrastination homeschool? How do I stay strong when I am so easily swayed to take days off or shorten assignments (when my kids beg for) another day off?

I went to church with a mom who says this is a problem for her. I've been in Sunday School with the kids and at church activities that required reading and following directions and they were well behind.

My older kids had friends in their teens who confided to them that community college was overwhelming to them because they weren't academically prepared for it.

My youngest goes to an enrichment school provided through public funds at a public school campus open to only those with a homeschooling affidavit on file. Some of her classes are for kids in grades 4-8 (softball, newspaper) and some are for grades 7-8.  There are kids in those classes who struggle with reading and writing independently. A few cannot read the all of the words when it's time to read aloud. I'm not talking about tripping over words, I mean completely stuck and unable to continue. Everything is group based, so kids collaborate together on most assignments. The lack of ability to focus on a task and to follow through is sorely lacking with several kids.

At the unschooling social group of more than 30 families (kids invited us to join them for events-they were very inclusive even if you don't unschool) I met one mother who actually said her teen only pays video games all night and sleeps all day.  She said with great certainty that when he figures out he needs to learn he will. She stuck out like a sore thumb there because the rest of the unschooled kids were going to college early, had internships, had small businesses started, had projects going, had a course of study charted out and were working on it, etc.

[katilac]

I'm surprised at the people who don't talk academics in their homeschool circle! It was so common for us, including families dealing with various LDs and other challenges. I'm feeling kind of proud of my old group now, apparently it was a pretty "safe" place for most families. 

[MinivanMom]

How could anyone possibly answer this question without making a wild guess? You don't know what people are doing in their homes on a daily basis.

 

I must have one of those faces, because people tell me everything. Seriously, people tell me about childhood abuse, mental health struggles, marriage conflicts, parenting problems, etc. Sometimes I'm surprised by what people tell me, but I'm quiet, and I know how to listen and ask questions to draw people out. And I spent many, many years as the "welcome lady" at park day for the big inclusive support group. You learn an awfully lot about everybody when you take on that role.

 

So, yes, I know a lot about what goes on in people's homes, because they tell me. I've had unschoolers confide in me about cheating on standardized tests. I've had religious homeschoolers tell me all about their efforts to make sure their teen daughters never develop any friendships outside their families. I feel like I know a lot of crazy details about a lot of families. So I don't think it's strange when they mention something mundane like, "Well, the only educational thing we've done this year is fishing, but I think my teen son is learning a lot from fishing so it doesn't matter that he can't read," or "I've just been so overwhelmed the past few years that I'm only teaching math to my son now; the girls have learned enough since they made it through Saxon 5/4." I don't think it's a wild guess to say that homeschooler A has a son who is probably functionally illiterate and that homeschooler B is not teaching her daughters math beyond pre-algebra.

 

I've stepped back from the "welcome lady" role, though, because I burned out pretty bad. 

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by MinivanMom

[amy g.]

I know one non educating HS family. I think that is primarily due to mental illness in both parents.

 

I'm someone who is still in love with homeschooling. I'm more in love with homeschooling than I was 17 years ago, because now I can SEE the results in my own family.

 

Another reason I'm still in love with homeschooling is because I have not had a ton of contact with other homeschoolers. I have never been in a co-op. We didn't join the HS Girl Scout troop.

 

Do you know who my friends are-public school teachers. They tell me about the student they had who failed Algebra 1 four times before they got them and discovered that the student just needed extra time to pass with an A.

 

They tell me how PS is destroying their own children's enthusiasm for learning.

 

And when I cry to them that I may be shortchanging one of my own kids. They hug me and assure me that my kid would be neglected in their class because they have to ignore the bright kids to help the ones that are drowning.

 

And they cry to me about how they regret leaving their own kids in PS and how they feel like they are so unprepared for college as a result.

 

They tell me that they wish their kid could gone to my homeschool and graduate with a good grasp on algebra and geometry rather than having been sped through advanced courses with no comprehension and no accountability.

 

I don't judge other families' progress.

 

We always say, "It is a marathon, not a sprint."

 

Yet some people want kids tested every lap to see if they are ahead or behind. That isn't helpful to me. Where my kid is in second grade compared to yours has absolutely no relation to which one will be ready for college or which one will do better after graduation. That is just measuring the first lap.

 

I have been homeschooling long enough to see a trend that some of the people who were the most "perfect" homeschoolers now have young adults with the most problems. I don't wish that I had been more like them and been more strict with my schedules and lesson plans and color coded binders.

 

I'm happy for every detour and unplanned day off and bunny trail and hobby. These are the things that give my kids stability and balance in their lives. These are the things that make them unusual and unique. These are the things that keep them from burning out.

 

I'm not making value judgements on how other families are doing. I'm not keeping track of what lap your kid is on.

 

But if you are keeping track of mine, I'll let you know that I have an 11 year old who is "behind" in writing. She keeps resisting and the writing programs I have tried have not been a good fit.

 

So every day, I read out loud to her from "Style Towards Clarity and Grace" she thinks that she is putting one over on me by not actually doing any writing. But I know, someday soon, when I'm reading, she is going to scream, "OMG! Give me my stupid laptop! I can write so much better than these morons!"

 

And then she will be off! Racing through the laps for herself. And she will own it. And she will love it.

 

So no. I'm not in favor of mandatory testing for any kid. I'm not worried about if I'm doing enough. I'm not worried about if you are.

 

I may only have 10 years of homeschooling left and I will be much too busy enjoying every minute of it!

Edited October 23, 2017 by amy g.

[LMD]

I must have one of those faces, because people tell me everything. Seriously, people tell me about childhood abuse, mental health struggles, marriage conflicts, parenting problems, etc. Sometimes I'm surprised by what people tell me, but I'm quiet, and I know how to listen and ask questions to draw people out. And I spent many, many years as the "welcome lady" at park day for the big inclusive support group. You learn an awfully lot about everybody when you take on that role.

 

So, yes, I know a lot about what goes on in people's homes, because they tell me.

I know exactly what you mean, it happens to me too. I've had people tell me about abusive history and crazy struggles on our first casual meeting. I have bluntly told people at park days that yes they need to teach to algebra and beyond!

 

I also ended up as 'the person to ask' - largely thanks to wtm/the boards - because I have a reputation for high standards and lending books lol. So I know that the 12 year old is working on grade 3 maths because they told me the grade 4/5 books were too hard. I was in a leadership position for a while, have organised many clubs/excursions, so I've been asked for advice many many times.