My McJudgy obnoxious observation and question

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I didn't say "women" are low-hanging fruits to be picked by any man who wants a piece. Duh. I was talking about the perceptionsome guys could have. Do you really think there are NO guys who are just looking for an easy good time? Why would someone want to advertise the possibility that maybe they are the easy pickings? Why would a parent not advise her teenaged daughter against creating the impression that she might be? (To say nothing of the logistical issues in tiny short dresses, which was the main point when I first posted, but okay, we've blown on past that, now.)

 

Maybe the woman doesn't consider herself "easy pickings" but would like to meet a guy and screw?

Edited October 22, 2017 by ChocolateReignRemix

[Carrie12345]

Yes, I get you Quill.  This is the kind of thing I talk to my daughter about.

 

I'm kind of surprised that people equate the things you're saying with victim-blaming.  I just don't read your posts that way. 

 

When the word "perceptions" is being used in the context of sexual violence, responsibility IS being laid at the feet of the victims.  

[Corraleno]

I didn't say "women" are low-hanging fruits to be picked by any man who wants a piece. Duh. I was talking about the perceptionsome guys could have.

Oh, you didn't mean all women, just the slutty ones wearing skimpy dresses? Duh

 

The "perception some guys [and apparently some women on this board] have" that women in revealing clothes are "asking for it" is incorrect. We need to correct these damaging and incorrect assumptions, instead of telling girls they need to modify their behavior in a way that validates those assumptions.

 

 

Do you really think there are NO guys who are just looking for an easy good time? Why would someone want to advertise the possibility that maybe they are the easy pickings?

Short dresses do not "advertise" that a girl is "easy pickings"!!!

 

 

:banghead:  :banghead:  :banghead:  :banghead:

Edited October 22, 2017 by Corraleno

[MegP]

I changed the pronouns and nouns around from Quill's post to make a point-how easy it is to assume all males are obsessing about sex 24/7 and that women never want sex-

 

 

"Oh, come on! Do you disagree that there are some  girls who are really just interested in an easy lay? Or, at least, to get around some bases if that is possible? Some guys  will cooperate with that goal and some want it for themselves. If a woman is principally looking for some "easy good times," she's going to go with one or two bits of data to try to choose well: what others say (his "rep") and how he presents himself. She's not going to "waste her time" on a dead end - the church guy in an oxford and khakis, say,  or a guy  other girls say, "yeah, he won't do anything, don't bother."

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Ah, I forgot why I stopped participating in threads like this. It's still, and probably always will be, a "never the twain shall meet" kind of thing. Sorry whores, we just can't can't protect you until you start straightening up and flying right like we keep telling you. Until then, you get what's coming to you.

 

I always feel horrible that I had daughters instead of sons in this environment. I can't believe we're STILL having these conversations.

[MegP]

Quill, do you believe that if a girl or woman dresses in a way that you would consider immodest, then she is saying she wants to have sex that night, and that it is the guy's right to touch her sexually since she is advertising her "low hanging fruits?"

[Barb_]

Can we shift the conversation a little bit to talk about dressing appropriately for an occasion? I do tell my girls to dress a little more conservatively (think t-shirt and jeans) when they head out to babysit, for example. I believe males own their reactions, but I also think it's disrespectful to dress in a miniskirt and thigh-high socks when people are paying you to watch your kids.

 

For a while one of my girls was very into dressing like Pedo-bait. Think short, fluffy skirt or plaid mini, high pigtails, thigh high socks, chunky heeled sandals, makeup intended to come off like a doll--sort of Asian-style Lolita look without quite so many frills. She resists growing up and just thought it was a cute look. I had a really hard time explaining why none of what she was wearing was appropriate for her age or for most occasions without falling back on,"you look like an 11yo prostitute."

 

How would you guys handle that?

[OrganicJen]

Quill, do you believe that if a girl or woman dresses in a way that you would consider immodest, then she is saying she wants to have sex that night, and that it is the guy's right to touch her sexually since she is advertising her "low hanging fruits?"

I think it's obvious that she isn't saying that.

[ktgrok]

I get that a guy may think certain clothing means a girl may be interested in consensual sex. But consensual sex and assault have nothing to do with each other. If he thinks she's looking for sex he can approach her and find out. The dress itself is not consent and guys know that.

[OrganicJen]

Can we shift the conversation a little bit to talk about dressing appropriately for an occasion? I do tell my girls to dress a little more conservatively (think t-shirt and jeans) when they head out to babysit, for example. I believe males own their reactions, but I also think it's disrespectful to dress in a miniskirt and thigh-high socks when people are paying you to watch your kids.

 

For a while one of my girls was very into dressing like Pedo-bait. Think short, fluffy skirt or plaid mini, high pigtails, thigh high socks, chunky heeled sandals, makeup intended to come off like a doll--sort of Asian-style Lolita look without quite so many frills. She resists growing up and just thought it was a cute look. I had a really hard time explaining why none of what she was wearing was appropriate for her age or for most occasions without falling back on,"you look like an 11yo prostitute."

 

How would you guys handle that?

I agree with your reasoning and I think I would explain it in the context of respect and manners toward other people and how we say and do things to be polite in a society and it can include how we dress for certain situations.

[Barb_]

I mean, I guess we do police our daughters' clothes more often but there is a lot more self-expression tied up in female dress. Guys wear t-shirt and jeans to ball games, on dates, out to dinner, to church, to the theater...maybe someone would insist on proper attire for prom but who knows?

[OrganicJen]

I mean, I guess we do police our daughters' clothes more often but there is a lot more self-expression tied up in female dress. Guys wear t-shirt and jeans to ball games, on dates, out to dinner, to church, to the theater...maybe someone would insist on proper attire for prom but who knows?

I liked when guys wore suits and hats everywhere personally. I feel like our society has gone way too casual overall.

[Guest]

Maybe the woman doesn't consider herself "easy pickings" but would like to meet a guy and screw?

Are you fine with that for high school age?

[Barb_]

I liked when guys wore suits and hats everywhere personally. I feel like our society has gone way too casual overall.

I do insist that my husband wear a button down and shoes without rubber soles when we go out. If I'm making an effort to look pulled together I insist on having a little eye candy on my arm ;)

[bolt.]

Can we shift the conversation a little bit to talk about dressing appropriately for an occasion? I do tell my girls to dress a little more conservatively (think t-shirt and jeans) when they head out to babysit, for example. I believe males own their reactions, but I also think it's disrespectful to dress in a miniskirt and thigh-high socks when people are paying you to watch your kids.

 

For a while one of my girls was very into dressing like Pedo-bait. Think short, fluffy skirt or plaid mini, high pigtails, thigh high socks, chunky heeled sandals, makeup intended to come off like a doll--sort of Asian-style Lolita look without quite so many frills. She resists growing up and just thought it was a cute look. I had a really hard time explaining why none of what she was wearing was appropriate for her age or for most occasions without falling back on,"you look like an 11yo prostitute."

 

How would you guys handle that?

I think I would just tell her she had grown out of some of her skirts, buy her new ones that were longer in a similar style, and make sure she had plenty of under-skirt shorts.

 

Everything else really does sound like a cute look! It sounds like she has a great sense of style.

 

I'm a little shocked to hear the sexualized terms you are using to discribe a fairly standard "comicon" style for women and girls.

[OrganicJen]

I do insist that my husband wear a button down and shoes without rubber soles when we go out. If I'm making an effort to look pulled together I insist on having a little eye candy on my arm ;)

:)

[Barb_]

I think I would just tell her she had grown out of some of her skirts, buy her new ones that were longer in a similar style, and make sure she had plenty of under-skirt shorts.

 

Everything else really does sound like a cute look! It sounds like she has a great sense of style.

 

I'm a little shocked to hear the sexualized terms you are using to discribe a fairly standard "comicon" style for women and girls.

You'd have to see it lol. It definitely had more of a pedo-bait than comicon vibe.

 

ETA: Particularly if you aren't familiar with Japanese street style. Hence my point about dressing for where you are. Most people would have assumed she was doing "sexy school girl"

Edited October 22, 2017 by Barb_

[bolt.]

You'd have to see it lol. It definitely had more of a pedo-bait than comicon vibe.

 

ETA: Particularly if you aren't familiar with Japanese street style. Hence my point about dressing for where you are. Most people would have assumed she was doing "sexy school girl"

In that case, I think I'd give her a strong but subtle push towards "comicon" as a look, giving her gifts towards that end and contributing various ideas (ie purple hair runs more comicon than schoolgirl).

[Guest]

I get that a guy may think certain clothing means a girl may be interested in consensual sex. But consensual sex and assault have nothing to do with each other. If he thinks she's looking for sex he can approach her and find out. The dress itself is not consent and guys know that.

But why start wwith high school aged young women, instructing them that their clothing choices don't give any sort of message, nope, doesn't mean a thing?

 

You know who I think really has a difficult time in society now? Young men.

[Bluegoat]

I agree that the way our culture sexualizes and objectifies women's bodies is damaging and dysfunctional, but I think that telling women they cannot express their sexuality, or want to appear attractive and desirable, without inviting men to assault them, feeds into that culture rather than pushing against it. It reinforces the idea that women's sexuality belongs to men, and should not be put on display lest men take what they are "advertising." 

 

IMO the way to stop (or at least reduce, it will never be stopped) sexual assault isn't to tell women to cover their bodies, it's to tell men that skimpy clothing is not an invitation to touch or harass someone. The conversation needs to be about consent, not clothing choices.

 

I don't think that's really the issue.

 

It's that they are dressing in a way that accepts and reinforces a particular socialization of the body, of women, and of sexuality.    Not a good one, and they have a responsibility to respond to that with some discernment.

 

Men and boys have their own challenges when it comes to rejecting those ideas, but it really isn't just up to them.  Their socialization, for the most part, doesn't focus on how they dress in the same way, so being critical or discerning about that in their own clothing choices is not something that they need to do. Maybe that's not fair, but that really isn't their fault.  

 

As far as the sexualization of women's bodies and clothing - that's driven by everyone, including women, and certain industries - which oddly are often led by women.  Perhaps there are things that could be done about this at that meta level, but I'm not sure what they are and I think they'd be fraught.  Ultimately, I think it's up to women and girls, who are choosing and buying these clothes, and dressing themselves and wearing them, to actually make some sort of change with that.  

 

Men cannot do that on our behalf.  And yet, if women won't engage with that culture of objectification critically, and maybe even make a kind of sacrifice - what they find fun or attractive because they come from that same socialization - why should we expect men to resist it, engage with it, and take it seriously?

 

There is something really wrong with claiming that somehow women are above this, can keep this culture, but somehow men aren't supposed to notice.

 

Consent, as a concept, to me is totally inadequate to deal with these issues.  It's a cart, not the horse.  Respect for other people, not as sexual objects, or not as people whose function is to make you feel adequate as an object, is the horse.  It begins with a view of the person as a whole being.  Consent is a technicality, one that can allow for respecting that totality i a particular circumstance.  If that respect isn't there, though, it will be more likely to fail, or even be used in a way that undermines the principle.

[bolt.]

But why start wwith high school aged young women, instructing them that their clothing choices don't give any sort of message, nope, doesn't mean a thing?

 

You know who I think really has a difficult time in society now? Young men.

Really? You think, "Enjoy the view as much as you like, but only touch women who outright tell you they want to be touched." -- is really such a difficult rule to follow? Especially since there's also, "If you misinterpret something, you will be fully forgiven if you simply apologize and immediately back off."

 

Honestly, those don't seem like challenging rules.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

You know who I think really has a difficult time in society now? Young men.

 

Is this a joke?

[Caroline]

I mean, I guess we do police our daughters' clothes more often but there is a lot more self-expression tied up in female dress. Guys wear t-shirt and jeans to ball games, on dates, out to dinner, to church, to the theater...maybe someone would insist on proper attire for prom but who knows?

Funny you mention it... My school’s homecoming is really casual. It is right after the football game, and a lot of kids just wear what they wore to the football game—shorts and a t-shirt. My son’s girlfriend was on the homecoming court this year, so she wore a formal dress. (Floor length for anyone who is wondering...) She told him he could wear shorts and a tshirt to accompany her to the dance. I said no way! We went shopping and we got new khakis, dress shirt and tie, and wore his brother’s blazer. He looked good. I guess you could say I did police his clothing choices. His girlfriend was happy with my choice. About half of the escorts were dressed up at the dance.

[Barb_]

In that case, I think I'd give her a strong but subtle push towards "comicon" as a look, giving her gifts towards that end and contributing various ideas (ie purple hair runs more comicon than schoolgirl).

This is the look I'm talking about:

 

http://pastelfairytears.tumblr.com/post/43483175895

[Bluegoat]

I think I would just tell her she had grown out of some of her skirts, buy her new ones that were longer in a similar style, and make sure she had plenty of under-skirt shorts.

 

Everything else really does sound like a cute look! It sounds like she has a great sense of style.

 

I'm a little shocked to hear the sexualized terms you are using to discribe a fairly standard "comicon" style for women and girls.

 

Comicon outfits for women are notoriously sexualized.  And not uncommonly infantilized and cartoon-ized at the same time.

 

A lot like going to the women'd Halloween outfit section.  

Edited October 22, 2017 by Bluegoat

[hornblower]

 

I'm a little shocked to hear the sexualized terms you are using to discribe a fairly standard "comicon" style for women and girls.

 

Well, I think the standard comicon style for women and girls IS sexualized. 

 

(it's a world I'm interested in fwiw but i have many concerns about certain aspects of it) 

[Caroline]

But why start wwith high school aged young women, instructing them that their clothing choices don't give any sort of message, nope, doesn't mean a thing?

 

You know who I think really has a difficult time in society now? Young men.

My sons seem to be handling it just fine.

[Barb_]

Funny you mention it... My school’s homecoming is really casual. It is right after the football game, and a lot of kids just wear what they wore to the football game—shorts and a t-shirt. My son’s girlfriend was on the homecoming court this year, so she wore a formal dress. (Floor length for anyone who is wondering...) She told him he could wear shorts and a tshirt to accompany her to the dance. I said no way! We went shopping and we got new khakis, dress shirt and tie, and wore his brother’s blazer. He looked good. I guess you could say I did police his clothing choices. His girlfriend was happy with my choice. About half of the escorts were dressed up at the dance.

Lol, good on you! I think it's nice when the guy in your life makes an effort to look nice for you.

[SKL]

 

 

I'm a little shocked to hear the sexualized terms you are using to discribe a fairly standard "comicon" style for women and girls.

 

Actually I agree with Barb that those outfits were not designed to just be neutral costumes, but intended for risque adult wear.

 

I'm thinking about certain styles that come up on Amazon when I do a search for school clothes my kids like, and end up with stuff none of us would send our daughters to school in.  That is the image I get from Barb's language.

 

Search "plaid school girl uniform" on Amazon and you will get lots of examples.

 

Of course I could be wrong ....

Edited October 22, 2017 by SKL

[Barb_]

Actually I agree with Barb that those outfits were not designed to just be neutral costumes, but intended for risque adult wear.

 

I'm thinking about certain styles that come up on Amazon when I do a search for school clothes my kids like, and end up with stuff none of us would send our daughters to school in. That is the image I get from Barb's language.

 

Search "plaid school girl uniform" on Amazon and you will get lots of examples.

 

Of course I could be wrong ....

No, you're right. Check out the link above.

[Guest]

Quill, do you believe that if a girl or woman dresses in a way that you would consider immodest, then she is saying she wants to have sex that night, and that it is the guy's right to touch her sexually since she is advertising her "low hanging fruits?"

No. I do not believe that and I have said so since the first post on this subject.

 

I'm saying from the perspective of a guy, if he is looking for someone that is more likely to participate in those activities, he is unlikely to look for someone modestly dressed.

 

In the book The Casual Vacancy (the one book by JKR that I hated throughout), there is one girl character from a bad part of town, bad reputation. I think her name is Crystal. So, a couple of the guys are talking about the progress they are making up the ladder towards losing their virginity and the one guy decides he's going to try to get Crystal. The other guys say something like, "oh, she's a skank, why would you go for her?" And he says, "I don't care. I wanna shag. She'll probably give it to me." And she does.

 

So no, nobody deserves to be harrased, violated or assualted. I have said that throughout. But if there are guys looking to make progress, they might just go for the Crystals of the world. They wanna shag, so they are going with the safer bet. Now - if you are (some random age older than 18) and you, in fact, are looking for a shag, too and you don't mind casual and unattatched versions of that activity, well then I guess whatever you wear is moot. But I don't think we (society we) should be telling high school (or younger) girls that their clothing makes no difference in how they will be perceived both by young men and their crotchety old parents because it is not true. Who goes out looking for casual sex in a conservative dress? Nobody I've ever known.

[Guest]

Is this a joke?

No.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Are you fine with that for high school age?

 

I have no interest  in the sexual activities of teens that are not under my roof. 

 

It should be noted that none of your comments apply to only teens.

[SKL]

Again, I do not understand why this is about being touched.  As if everything is fine as long as no non-consensual physical touching occurs.

[Corraleno]

Is this a joke?

I wish.  :sad:

 

Shockingly, my 19 yr old son has no problem whatsoever understanding the very simple concept that what a woman wears has absolutely nothing to do with whether she wants to have sex with him, or anyone else. He does not think of women as fruit to be picked or cars to be stolen. :ack2:  He is as disgusted as I am with people who think like that. The only thing he finds confusing is that other women would buy into that kind of bullshit.

[marbel]

But why start wwith high school aged young women, instructing them that their clothing choices don't give any sort of message, nope, doesn't mean a thing?

 

You know who I think really has a difficult time in society now? Young men.

 

I agree.  Actually, I'm sorry for all the young people trying to navigate dating relationships now. 

 

Really? You think, "Enjoy the view as much as you like, but only touch women who outright tell you they want to be touched." -- is really such a difficult rule to follow? Especially since there's also, "If you misinterpret something, you will be fully forgiven if you simply apologize and immediately back off."

 

Honestly, those don't seem like challenging rules.

 

Except I don't think those are the rules.  "Enjoy the view?"  No, not really.  Girls dress to show off their physical attributes, but if the guy is caught looking, he's called out as a creeper.  Young men are told they must constantly keep their wits about them so they don't misinterpret what the women are saying/doing, while women are not held to the same standard and claim the right to get as drunk as they want, to the point of passing out, because the men are supposed to protect them.  (I've learned that on past threads on this board.  And so much for empowered women.) 

[Murphy101]

Did you see the link Mercy A posted? I did not read it fully yet, but it's talking about this. We give cues to people in society through our clothing all the time. We use clothing cues to say all sorts of things about ourselves: our profession, our religion, our economic status, our age, how we want people to view us; i.e., I'm yuppie, I'm funky, I'm traditional, I'm a rebel, I'm a party girl, I want to blend in, I want to stand out, I'm athletic, I'm artsy. Clothing choices do communicate things, so why pretend there's no such thing as clothing that does invite "looking"?

 

I'm 100% in favor of raising my sons to not see any woman as an object for his enjoyment and to always stay far from any lines of questionable consent no matter what she might be wearing and no matter whether she's stone-cold-sober or three sheets to the wind. But I also have no qualms about telling my daughter that clothing choices make a difference in how "available" a guy is likely to think she is.

Because ALL clothing invites looking. And no type of clothing invites touching or denigration of a person.

 

Wearing a burka down main street “invites†looking bc it stands out. And yet that means nothing about the person and implies absolutely nothing to what others can do to her or how hey should treat her.

 

This isn’t rocket science. I’ve got 7 sons, 6 teens and early 20s. Not a single one of them would see a woman as an object and they don’t presume anything wrt their interactions with women based on what women are wearing. They presume they should always be decent humans.

 

Dress for the occasion in the appropriate manner =\= looking “too attractive†is bad because men read it as an invite to treat women like objects.

 

No. Some men treat women like objects because some men are ego tripping aholes.

[Corraleno]

But I don't think we (society we) should be telling high school (or younger) girls that their clothing makes no difference in how they will be perceived both by young men and their crotchety old parents because it is not true. Who goes out looking for casual sex in a conservative dress? Nobody I've ever known.

 

I was raised Catholic, and although I went to PS I had many friends and several relatives who went to Catholic school. I can assure you that the Catholic school girls were having just as much casual sex as the public school girls, despite their long pleated skirts and buttoned-to-the-neck shirts.

 

It's absurd to think that what a girl wears reflects how likely she is to be sexually active, or that a knee-length skirt can protect you from sexual assault. 

[Bluegoat]

As far as women actually dressing to send a particular message.

 

Yes, they do.  Men do too, although I don't know if there is a "want to get laid" outfit for men.

 

But when I was in university to some extent, and certainly when I was in the army, women would absolutely go out looking for sexual partners and dress, deliberately, in such a way as to send that message in the pick-up spot.

 

You can tell young people  that clothing is not meant to send a message, but that is a pretty big risk to take with your credibility.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

No.

 

I'm kind of speechless. Please, do share how the young men in our society are suffering such a rough lot in life in 2017.

 

Is it the restrictive dress codes? Is it their need to bring their own sealed drinks to parties and gatherings and drink nothing else? Is it their need to always travel with a companion for personal safety? Is it that pesky consent thing? Is it the mixed societal messages they're constantly receiving? "Wear makeup, but not too much! Dress nicely, but not too nicely! Be nice, but don't make girls feel like you're being a little toooo friendly, if you know what I mean *wink wink*"

 

Oh, I know, it's all those college girls with their screechy sexual assault claims. Or is it the constant war on their reproductive rights? No? It HAS been difficult for them to break into certain industries (like tech) without undergoing verbal abuse from many female colleagues. And it's true that that whole Harvey Weinstein thing has been really hard on young men in Hollywood. And that wage gap!

 

Yep, guys sure are having a hard time these days. I wonder what we can do to even the playing field. Probably not much. 

 

ETA: I guess I wasn't as speechless as I thought :lol:

Edited October 22, 2017 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[goldberry]

 

As far as it being ironic to have this at the same time there is public discussion about sexual harassment.  Yeah, it is.  Not because wearing a short dress gets you raped, but because both are directly related to sexualization.  Larger social attitudes about sex don't stand alone in little boxes - here some people think it is ok to objectify women sexually, and then over here women's clothing is sexualized, and one has nothing to do with the other.  The two absolutely feed off each other, how women feel about themselves, how men see women, and how both see sex.

 

This is close to my take on it.  I have absolutely discussed with DD that clothes send messages.  If the messages are not what you want to send, you can either wear something different, or wear the same thing but be prepared that it may and probably will affect the way people treat you.  This is not just sexy clothes, but tattoos, piercings, frumpy clothes, etc.  

 

I know there is no direct connection between what women wear and getting assaulted and raped.  There is no fault there, zero, nada. 

 

But there is an indirect connection in that it can contribute to the general sexualization and objectification of women in society.  The same way that young young girls wearing inappropriately sexual clothes contributes to others seeing them as sexual objects.  

[Barb_]

This is close to my take on it. I have absolutely discussed with DD that clothes send messages. If the messages are not what you want to send, you can either wear something different, or wear the same thing but be prepared that it may and probably will affect the way people treat you. This is not just sexy clothes, but tattoos, piercings, frumpy clothes, etc.

 

I know there is no direct connection between what women wear and getting assaulted and raped. There is no fault there, zero, nada.

 

But there is an indirect connection in that it can contribute to the general sexualization and objectification of women in society. The same way that young young girls wearing inappropriately sexual clothes contributes to others seeing them as sexual objects.

Well said. This describes my thoughts.

[unsinkable]

I wonder if the women who bound their girls' feet and laced their girls into corsets that made them faint sounded like they were just giving helpful advice similar how to maneuver in a narrow, crotch-skimmed skirt?

Edited October 22, 2017 by unsinkable

[Corraleno]

Except I don't think those are the rules.  "Enjoy the view?"  No, not really.  Girls dress to show off their physical attributes, but if the guy is caught looking, he's called out as a creeper.  Young men are told they must constantly keep their wits about them so they don't misinterpret what the women are saying/doing, while women are not held to the same standard and claim the right to get as drunk as they want, to the point of passing out, because the men are supposed to protect them.  (I've learned that on past threads on this board.  And so much for empowered women.) 

 

Uh, no. Saying that women have the right to not be raped while unconscious does not mean they expect men to "protect them." They expect men to not assault them. Why is that such a difficult concept? Why is that even a controversial thing??? "Not being assaulted" is an absolute, unequivocal, inviolable right, no matter how a woman is dressed or how much she's had to drink. And yet we persist in telling women that it's their responsibility to avoid being assaulted. SMDH.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I wonder if the women who bound their girls' feet and laced their girls into corsets that made them faint sounded like they were just giving helpful advice similar how to maneuver in a narrow, crotch-skimmed skirt?

 

Huh?

 

[Guest]

I'm kind of speechless. Please, do share how the young men in our society are suffering such a rough lot in life in 2017.

 

Is it the restrictive dress codes? Is it their need to bring their own sealed drinks to parties and gatherings and drink nothing else? Is it their need to always travel with a companion for personal safety? Is it that pesky consent thing? Is it the mixed societal messages they're constantly receiving? "Wear makeup, but not too much! Dress nicely, but not too nicely! Be nice, but don't make girls feel like you're being a little toooo friendly, if you know what I mean *wink wink*"

 

Oh, I know, it's all those college girls with their screechy sexual assault claims. Or is it the constant war on their reproductive rights? No? It HAS been difficult for them to break into certain industries (like tech) without undergoing verbal abuse from many female colleagues. And it's true that that whole Harvey Weinstein thing has been really hard on young men in Hollywood. And that wage gap!

 

Yep, guys sure are having a hard time these days. I wonder what we can do to even the playing field. Probably not much.

 

ETA: I guess I wasn't as speechless as I thought :lol:

Thinking young men have some things rough does not equal thinking no woman has it rough also. Not mutually exclusive.

 

Men constantly have to be on their guard lest concent is being revoked. Or maybe she is sorry tomorrow and now she thinks maybe she did revoke consent. Oh and it doesn't matter how wasted *she* gets, never can it be true that she gave consent. Sure hope *he* doesn't get equally drunk, because if he is fuzzy on consent the next morning, his whole future could be destroyed. Someone might have a cell phone video with his voice on it. (Read John Grishom's fictional work, The Associate.)

 

She can wear anything she wants, but whether or not she enjoys attention from him will rest entirely on whether or not she thinks *he* is attractive and desirable. If he pursues her because dang, she's so pretty! it can't happen unless she welcomes it and keeps on welcoming it all the way along...but not if she's getting too tipsy; then he can no longer be certain; what if she's just under the influence and tomorrow she will decide it was just "beer goggles"? And again, I hope *he* is not drinking too much because all the determination of consent rests on him, now, so he better check himself.

 

Yes, I do think that's very confusing terrain for young men now.

[Murphy101]

This is just such bs. My boys have no difficulty navigating this. Neither does my husband. Men don’t throw away their drink bc it left their sight while they went to go pee and now they can’t risk drinking it for fear of being roofied. Men don’t think, “gee, I better be careful not to look too attractive bc it might send the message it’s okay to grope my nuts or insinuate I’m a tease or a ho.â€

 

This is total crap.

 

No matter what the clothing accentuates, it implies NOTHING about whether it is available for someone else.

 

Sure there are people who just want to an easy lay. Which has nothing to do with clothing. The clothing of the guy or the gal doesn’t have anything to do with them screwing around or their sex life in general.

[Ausmumof3]

I don't think what girls wear has any bearing on whether they are likely to be assaulted. Worst scenarios I personally know of happened within families with a strong emphasis on modesty. Actually I wish what people wear did have some bearing because then it would be far easier to fix.

 

But...

 

I actually feel that some fashions are inherently exploiting teen girls. Fashions that encourage people to dress impracticality on clothes that aren't protective high heels, ridiculous shoes or clothes that you can't actually move on without flashing underwear.

 

It's ok to say "women make the choice to wear it" but as with all things fashion doesn't happen in a vacuum. Especially as a teen, I felt a lot of pressure to conform. And kids aren't designing fashions there's someone further up the chain that's setting the standards for how to dress and what to wear.

 

I am big on the message "it's not how you look it's who you are". In spite of the modesty message I got in childhood I also received loud and clear that how you think and act were far more important than just looking good. Some clothes are just designed to make girls ornamental and not much else and I'm seriously not a fan of that.

 

Last thing is people often say "why aren't we policing boys clothes". Well I think mostly because boys aren't pushed as much to be always beautiful and ornamental and are far less likely to push the envelope with clothing. Lots of people do get judgy about boy trends like the jocks hanging out look. I'm not personally a fan of boys hanging out with their shirts off etc.

[Liz CA]

 

There is a HUGE and very important difference between "I want to be perceived as attractive and sexy" and "I'm fine with any and all men harassing me and touching me without my consent."

 

No woman, no matter what she is wearing, is ever sending the second message. NO. ONE. 

 

 

The woman may not be thinking she is sending a message but we need to be realistic of how it is perceived and interpreted on the other end.

We could go into complex neurological brain circuitry here but suffice it to say that not all males (some are) understanding this difference you and others outline. Yes, there is a difference but unfortunately some men don't get it. Should we teach this to our sons? Absolutely. Until every single male has understood this, some women are in danger of being misunderstood.

 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Thinking young men have some things rough does not equal thinking no woman has it rough also. Not mutually exclusive.

 

Men constantly have to be on their guard lest concent is being revoked. Or maybe she is sorry tomorrow and now she thinks maybe she did revoke consent. Oh and it doesn't matter how wasted *she* gets, never can it be true that she gave consent. Sure hope *he* doesn't get equally drunk, because if he is fuzzy on consent the next morning, his whole future could be destroyed. Someone might have a cell phone video with his voice on it. (Read John Grishom's fictional work, The Associate.)

 

She can wear anything she wants, but whether or not she enjoys attention from him will rest entirely on whether or not she thinks *he* is attractive and desirable. If he pursues her because dang, she's so pretty! it can't happen unless she welcomes it and keeps on welcoming it all the way along...but not if she's getting too tipsy; then he can no longer be certain; what if she's just under the influence and tomorrow she will decide it was just "beer goggles"? And again, I hope *he* is not drinking too much because all the determination of consent rests on him, now, so he better check himself.

 

Yes, I do think that's very confusing terrain for young men now.

 

There are some easy ways for young men to avoid all of that uncertainty and those kinds of dangerous situations. If you don't get drunk and/or don't go looking for casual sex, you won't have to navigate any of that terrain. Don't go to parties where everyone is drinking and getting out of control. Always stick with a friend, and you can help keep each other out of those situations. Better yet, just wait until you're married! Protect your virtue and you won't have to risk any of this mess. It's really that simple.

 

Do you even hear yourself? You pay lip service to not wanting to victim blame, but the more you say, the more you expose how you really think. You may want to dig down a bit deeper there.