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Dyslexic grade 9 student behind in math - suggestions


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I have a 14yo, grade 9 student who has undiagnosed dyslexia and dysgraphia. I don't think he has dyscalculia but like mamy dyslexics he has trouble memorizing his math facts. He mostly did well on concepts though.

 

In grade 1 and 2 we did MEP. He started struggling with it, and I wasn't sure how to help, so I looked for something else.

 

Grade 3 he did RightStart B (all 1st ed)

Grade 4 and half of grade 5 was Rightstart C

Grade 5 (rest of it) and grade 6 was RightStart D

Grade 7 and half of Grade 8 was RightStart E.

 

Note that he did well in RightStart, but it took quite the while. That was the end of Rightstart.

 

So that was January 2017.

 

We tried RightStart G (Jr. High Geometry), and MEP 7. That didn't go well. Tried a few placement tests and it didn't go great. Tested him through Saxon 54 and then 65 following Art Reed's advice... working on lessons where a gap was found. Had a couple weeks break over summer, then tried to start Saxon 76, and got meltdowns like crazy... over addition and subtraction of whole numbers! It isn't worth the harm to the relationship.

 

I am not sure what to do. I don't have a lot of money. And now because of a family situation, I really need something independent. And portable. Preferably something designed to bring a high school student up to level, and with fairly defined lessons might be best... because asking him to work xxx minutes on something (like Khan Academy) doesn't work.

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Hugs.  I don't really know what to tell you (although I will make a couple of suggestions further down) except that a student struggling that much in multiple areas really would benefit from an evaluation.  There could be a lot of comorbid things going on.  It is hard to know what path to take when it isn't certain what exactly is wrong.

 

Since you are limited on funds, if you live in the U.S. you might consider contacting your local school district (by letter so it starts an official clock) and ask for evaluations through the school system.  They may or may not be the greatest (some schools do an awesome job and some don't) but it might net better answers.  

 

As for what to do with a student that obviously has some sort of learning issue, is behind in math, and is already in 9th grade, I must say as disheartening as it may be, I don't see a way in the world that this child will be successful with an independent math program.  As the parent of two kids with similar issues (and we had official diagnoses in late elementary) I will share it has been a very long haul for all of us.  It has taken a lot of time and resources to get my kids moving through math successfully and not one single math program we tried, whether teacher intensive or independent, was successful without my daily interaction and support, as well as outside tutors at times.  A combination of math programs worked best.  We had to go way, way, way back and start over.  I now use CLE/CTC/Key to Fractions/Percents/Decimals plus some resources on the side for word problems and some more intense conceptual understanding.

 

If you really cannot be that interactive with your child and you cannot hire a tutor or use an on-line self-paced class that is backed up by a real teacher I would maybe look at something like Teaching Textbooks if you can find the money.  Give him the placement test. 

 

Or use CLE since the lessons are written to the student but again you need to give him the placement test.  He may place lower than you would like but honestly High School math is not easy.  If he is weak on basics he will struggle in High School math.

 

How is he on Percents, Decimals and Fractions?  If he is weak in those areas then maybe running him through the Key to series of workbooks alongside whatever math program you choose might help.   While the lessons are written to the student, it is critical that you check his work daily (takes very little time if you get the answer keys) so if he misunderstood something you can correct it before it gets ingrained.

 

FWIW< DD is in High School.  She was running into a lot of snags despite a lot of remediation.  I realized that Fractions, Percents and Decimals were still weak and she needed targeted practice on those but separate from her regular lessons.  I started DD with Key to Fractions.  One page daily.  Then once she finished Book one of that, she started Book 2 of Fractions and Book 1 of Decimals.  I kept her on the same page number for each book and she did one page of each per day.  Then once those were done she started Book 3 of Fractions, Book 2 of Decimals and Book 1 of percents.  Same thing.  I kept her on the same page number for each (made it easier to keep track of where we were) doing one page of each per day and it wasn't overwhelming.  It seemed to help to run them concurrently but with Fractions leading the way.  They are all interrelated. It has helped her tremendously to review these things through this program.

 

Now if his main issue is memorizing math facts, then I would have him create a math chart of multiplication facts to work off of, I would maybe get him the CLE math reference chart (whether he ends up using CLE or not) and let him use those resources while working through lessons, and I would consider letting him use a calculator for certain areas.  Work on math facts separately.  If he has low working memory/low processing speed, then trying to keep up with basic math facts AND learn new material at a much higher level may be using up all of his resources and overloading him. 

 

If you had any spare time, you might look at Hands on Equations.  It isn't independent but it might really help with understanding Algebra.

 

 

Edited by OneStepAtATime
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Agree with most everything in post above. (except that Keys was a bad fit for my own dyslexic child, and I don't have any personal experience with the other 2 programs mentioned.  CTC looked interesting, but I don't know how independent, $$$, or etc. it is--maybe OneStep who is familiar with it could say more.)

 

I'd suggest allowing your son to use a calculator and to focus on concepts, not calculations at this point.  (Or a chart. But it may be time for calculator. My ds went back to BMS and they are using calculators in 9th--it only helps by algebra and geometry if you know what to enter in, but helps a lot if calculation is a difficulty.  The reality is that there are scientists and mathematicians who are great at concepts but not at calculation.)

 

IME, Saxon is a terrible fit for dyslexics.

 

I don't know how expensive it is, but ALECS (spelling?) is supposed to be a computerized math program that might help with bringing someone along from where they are to where they can go.

 

 

Auffman Basic College Math is set up to review from the very beginning of math and go right on up to where he could probably be doing high school math well--but I doubt he could do it independently.

 

Has your ds actually tried Khan?  If not the problems, maybe at least the videos could be of help to him? And as well it shows solutions to problems, plus allows communication with others, so maybe could help a bit to make up for your unavailability?

 

Could he do several short math sessions daily instead of one longer one?

 

Would it help if he went back to 8th grade to take pressure off?

 

Could he go to BMS school for one year while you are dealing with whatever doesn't allow you to be hands on?

 

Could you look in a used bookstore for books that he might be able to use and learn from (that is have him look and see if anything seems to be a fit for the way he thinks and learns) and then maybe find the teacher book used as well?

 

A comprehensive pre-algebra that reviews most everything as well as introducing algebra might be a good fit.

 

I think they are OOP now, but there was a Math Made Simple book that started at the beginning and went up at least through typical 8th grade level (can't recall how high it went) that had very good explanations as I recall. But it was also text explanation driven, so might well be bad with dyslexia.

 

If you can interlibrary loan them, Great Courses has some good Basic Math and so on instructional DVDs that would review basics of fractions and so on which he might be weak on.

 

Spectrum workbooks are pretty good through 8th grade level math, and not expensive plus have answer keys in back. Still might need your help and or videos etc.  Some Barnes and Noble type stores would have them on display and you/he could see where he is able to do it easily to at this point, and start at the first level that is a challenge, but not impossibly hard no matter what grade it says on cover.

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I used RB's Overcoming Difficulty with Number with my dyslexic/dysgraphic/maths disabled DS.  The latter portion of that book combined with James Tanton materials propelled DS forward.  DS practiced math facts using the MUS online generator.

 

During the logic stage, he used graph paper, a multiplication facts chart, a TI-15 calculator, HOE, and a standard McDougal-Littell Pre-Algebra textbook.  I paid $5 for a slightly used copy.

 

I have to sit with my son as he completes his math, and there is no way around that.  I either sit with him or stay nearby to help him immediately.  I've done that for several years now.  In the past, we have used Khan Academy, the A+ Note for PreAlgebra/Algebra, math manipulatives, and math mnemonics.

 

If your DS struggles so much, I'm not sure it is realistic to expect him to self-teach.

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Hugs.  I don't really know what to tell you (although I will make a couple of suggestions further down) except that a student struggling that much in multiple areas really would benefit from an evaluation.  There could be a lot of comorbid things going on.  It is hard to know what path to take when it isn't certain what exactly is wrong.

 

Since you are limited on funds, if you live in the U.S. you might consider contacting your local school district (by letter so it starts an official clock) and ask for evaluations through the school system.  They may or may not be the greatest (some schools do an awesome job and some don't) but it might net better answers.  

 

 

 

I am in Canada.  There is no possibility of testing as it costs a fortune.  The Public school will not do testing unless I enroll him.  Even then, there was wait lists of kids in PS for testing in the order of 1-2 years.  Not even sure what they would do with a high school student.

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I am in Canada.  There is no possibility of testing as it costs a fortune.  The Public school will not do testing unless I enroll him.  Even then, there was wait lists of kids in PS for testing in the order of 1-2 years.  Not even sure what they would do with a high school student.

Ugh.  I was afraid of that.  I couldn't remember for sure. 

 

O.k. then hopefully the other suggestions people have made on your thread will help.  I know this is a really tough place to be.  

 

Hugs and best wishes.  

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Has your ds actually tried Khan?  If not the problems, maybe at least the videos could be of help to him? And as well it shows solutions to problems, plus allows communication with others, so maybe could help a bit to make up for your unavailability?

 

Could he do several short math sessions daily instead of one longer one?

 

Would it help if he went back to 8th grade to take pressure off?

 

Could he go to BMS school for one year while you are dealing with whatever doesn't allow you to be hands on?

 

Could you look in a used bookstore for books that he might be able to use and learn from (that is have him look and see if anything seems to be a fit for the way he thinks and learns) and then maybe find the teacher book used as well?

 

A comprehensive pre-algebra that reviews most everything as well as introducing algebra might be a good fit.

 

I think they are OOP now, but there was a Math Made Simple book that started at the beginning and went up at least through typical 8th grade level (can't recall how high it went) that had very good explanations as I recall. But it was also text explanation driven, so might well be bad with dyslexia.

 

If you can interlibrary loan them, Great Courses has some good Basic Math and so on instructional DVDs that would review basics of fractions and so on which he might be weak on.

 

Spectrum workbooks are pretty good through 8th grade level math, and not expensive plus have answer keys in back. Still might need your help and or videos etc.  Some Barnes and Noble type stores would have them on display and you/he could see where he is able to do it easily to at this point, and start at the first level that is a challenge, but not impossibly hard no matter what grade it says on cover.

 

Yes, my son has tried Khan.  We haven't done it recently very much - at one time he had to do - say 15 minutes - on Khan.... and he would go out of the math area and do programming instead unless I was watching.  Or would waste time watching videos.  anything but the math.   That was a few years ago.  The other day I asked him to spend time on either Khan Academy or Prodigy Math while I had a shower.   He did 3 questions.  :(

 

 

He has a nephew in the same grade as him (the nephew is in PS.)  It would devastate him to be 'held back.' 

 

He has absolutely no desire to go to PS - and I can't imagine PS being a positive experience for him at this time.  I think it would likely utterly destroy any self-confidence he has.

 

 

My husband had a stroke in August.  He is doing well and is coming home tomorrow.  Once things get setup, The whole family will need to drive to a medical exercise facility... the idea is that I would sit with the kids while they do their work for 45 min to an hour while he exercises, and then he would sit with them while I do some exercise.  So we need most things portable and pretty independent.   And then sometime in the day there would be a Speech Therapist in our house working with him.  We live in a 800sq ft house - so that will require me to take the kids somewhere during that time.    We haven't got everything worked out yet.  But my husband can't drive, so I need to drive him.  

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I was looking at Bridgeway Math - which sounds good - but there are no sample pages or anything anywhere.    I have also been looking at the Learn Math Fast System...  I am considering CLE, and have placed my other kids in it.  I don't think he likes the look of it, and he might place lower than his younger sisters....

 

 

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Normally I would NOT recommend, at all, putting a struggling student in an independent math program and hoping they make it, especially when they are already starting High School.  I think in a year the student will still be behind, more demoralized and now with even less time to move through the material. 

 

You are in a challenging position so I guess you need to look at all of the things he needs to accomplish for High School and seriously work through where priorities should lie.  Are you needing him to be independent in all subjects?  How independent is he in other areas?  Does he have any support systems for his dyslexia/dysgraphia?  Have those been remediated at all?  Can he read at grade level?  Write?  Type?  Use dictation software?

 

If he is doing o.k. in other subjects then is there any way to commit to at least one day a week of intense math lessons with this child using a remediation friendly resources such as the Ronit Bird book Heathermomster suggested?  Or finding some way for him to at least Skype with a tutor once a week?

 

I was looking at the Cathy Duffy review of the Learn Math Fast program you were considering.  I was going to say anything that titles itself as "Learn Math Fast" would almost certainly be a poor fit for a kid with learning challenges but in reading through it, I think it MIGHT work as a spine for this year for your particular circumstances.  It doesn't appear to have grade levels listed so it might work out o.k. to keep him from feeling "behind" and you could start him at very basics to make certain those are solid without him feeling like he is being put back in 2nd grade or something.  He could move at whatever successful pace he can muster.  It looks like it covers the material fairly well, from what I can see, and gets down to the basics of what needs to be done to get into High School material.

 

One caveat to this, though, is that there is almost no consistent review built in.  You will have to do that yourself.  You will need to schedule in and provide review problems and keep track of what he needs to review each week.  This is absolutely critical IMHO.

 

Cathy Duffy review for anyone interested:   http://cathyduffyreviews.com/homeschool-reviews-core-curricula/math/math-grades-k-6/learn-math-fast-system

 

The Math on the Level math program has a great system of review where the parent creates only 5 review problems each day, and there is a check list to keep track of the different concepts.  Perhaps you could do something like that, create your own checklist and write out 5 review problems daily while he moves through new material from the Learn Math Fast sytem.

 

Also, you would have to find the time DAILY to check his work.  If he is getting lost/confused/misunderstood something and is doing it wrong. you need to catch it before it becomes ingrained.  

 

 

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You're saying not math SLD but he's functioning like math SLD. I would give him a calculator, re-do the placement tests, and see what that does. If he does well with the calculator, then assume the issue is only the facts and move forward. If he does not do well, even with the calculator, then report back and let people help you think through options.

 

I also think this is an age to get really honest and look at practical math, business math, life skills. For some reason I was also thinking you had a dc on the spectrum. Is that correct or totally off-base? If you have a list to get on for evals, even a long one (1-2 year wait), I would try. He's clearly having significant issues and it might be that over time he'll qualify for transition services, vocational training, or other things you get access to by having evals before he's 18.

 

My ds has a mix similar to your ds, and for my ds I like printable ebooks from places like Carson-Dellosa, Evan Moor, and Teacher Created. I like that they have lots of straightforward word problems, application, only a small amount of work on a given page, and are not overwhelming.

 

Also, Ronit Bird is amazing.

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Normally I would NOT recommend, at all, putting a struggling student in an independent math program and hoping they make it, especially when they are already starting High School.  I think in a year the student will still be behind, more demoralized and now with even less time to move through the material. 

 

You are in a challenging position so I guess you need to look at all of the things he needs to accomplish for High School and seriously work through where priorities should lie.  Are you needing him to be independent in all subjects?  How independent is he in other areas?  Does he have any support systems for his dyslexia/dysgraphia?  Have those been remediated at all?  Can he read at grade level?  Write?  Type?  Use dictation software?

 

If he is doing o.k. in other subjects then is there any way to commit to at least one day a week of intense math lessons with this child using a remediation friendly resources such as the Ronit Bird book Heathermomster suggested?  Or finding some way for him to at least Skype with a tutor once a week?

 

I was looking at the Cathy Duffy review of the Learn Math Fast program you were considering.  I was going to say anything that titles itself as "Learn Math Fast" would almost certainly be a poor fit for a kid with learning challenges but in reading through it, I think it MIGHT work as a spine for this year for your particular circumstances.  It doesn't appear to have grade levels listed so it might work out o.k. to keep him from feeling "behind" and you could start him at very basics to make certain those are solid without him feeling like he is being put back in 2nd grade or something.  He could move at whatever successful pace he can muster.  It looks like it covers the material fairly well, from what I can see, and gets down to the basics of what needs to be done to get into High School material.

 

One caveat to this, though, is that there is almost no consistent review built in.  You will have to do that yourself.  You will need to schedule in and provide review problems and keep track of what he needs to review each week.  This is absolutely critical IMHO.

 

Cathy Duffy review for anyone interested:   http://cathyduffyreviews.com/homeschool-reviews-core-curricula/math/math-grades-k-6/learn-math-fast-system

 

The Math on the Level math program has a great system of review where the parent creates only 5 review problems each day, and there is a check list to keep track of the different concepts.  Perhaps you could do something like that, create your own checklist and write out 5 review problems daily while he moves through new material from the Learn Math Fast sytem.

 

Also, you would have to find the time DAILY to check his work.  If he is getting lost/confused/misunderstood something and is doing it wrong. you need to catch it before it becomes ingrained.  

 

"Are you needing him to be independent in all subjects?"

 

As many as possible.  

 

"How independent is he in other areas?"

 

Not too bad. 

He is using www.virtualhomeschoolgroup.org for Science and is doing ok so far. 

 

History we have been doing family style - there are assignments based on grade.  We are only a couple of lessons in, and he has been doing fine with the grades 7-9 assignments so far.  I might need to change history though for everyone... sigh - the kids really like it.

 

He has Seminary online (there is a live online instructor with a class once a week and daily assignments. I can't see those assignments, but the instructor is my friend.  He has been working on it regularily and I haven't hear of any issues.   

 

The English course he has been doing ok at, but I have to watch as he will try to skip assignments. He has used audiobooks and has read high school level literature for a while reading along with the audiobooks.  (We used to do AO)

 

 

"Does he have any support systems for his dyslexia/dysgraphia?  Have those been remediated at all?  Can he read at grade level?  Write?  Type?  Use dictation software?"

 

We have worked on remediation.   I'm not sure what level he is at on reading right now - He was at grade level as far as I could tell when he was in grade 6/7 - although I'm sure he is slower.    He is still learning how to write paragraphs.  He has been working on learning to type for quite a while now.   No dictation software."

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You're saying not math SLD but he's functioning like math SLD. I would give him a calculator, re-do the placement tests, and see what that does. If he does well with the calculator, then assume the issue is only the facts and move forward. If he does not do well, even with the calculator, then report back and let people help you think through options.

 

I also think this is an age to get really honest and look at practical math, business math, life skills. For some reason I was also thinking you had a dc on the spectrum. Is that correct or totally off-base? If you have a list to get on for evals, even a long one (1-2 year wait), I would try. He's clearly having significant issues and it might be that over time he'll qualify for transition services, vocational training, or other things you get access to by having evals before he's 18.

 

My ds has a mix similar to your ds, and for my ds I like printable ebooks from places like Carson-Dellosa, Evan Moor, and Teacher Created. I like that they have lots of straightforward word problems, application, only a small amount of work on a given page, and are not overwhelming.

 

Also, Ronit Bird is amazing.

 

I thought math SLD had a lot more problems with number sense and understanding of numbers, whereas difficulty memorizing math facts is considered a common thing with dyslexia.    

 

No, I don't have any children on the spectrum.

 

No, there is no list to get on for evals unless he becomes a public school student.  There is nothing.  Zero.  No support.  I chose to homeschool so my kids get nothing.  The 1-2 year wait is what has been reported as a problem for public school students, in elementary, to get evaluated for reading problems.  Where they would then be put into a reading program that would be inappropriate for a dyslexic child.   I am 98% sure that the public school would fail him completely at this stage of things.

 

He was doing great with RightStart. like 90%+ on each test and review lesson.  It was taking a bit longer than I had hoped - but each level, individually, was within the length of time reported.  He started a bit behind because of the struggles in MEP - and he never got quick enough on the math facts.... (he can figure them out correctly, but takes a LOT longer than normal - and I did give him a reference sheet.)   So yes, I knew he was behind - but I did NOT expect him to struggle with other programs like this.  :(

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If you have other kids using CLE then I would not use that system.  I would put him in something other than what his siblings are using.

 

How is he doing in other subjects?  Is he your oldest?

 

He is doing ok in other subjects.  Really good in Science and History.  English, he does great for literature (using Audiobooks).  Struggling in writing.  We are remediating spelling but he will likely never be great at spelling.  Great in Seminary.  Great in the option he selected, which is Astronomy.  He has been working at learning typing for a few years now...   

 

He is the oldest at home.  Older siblings are half-siblings, and are quite a bit older. 

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Yes, my son has tried Khan.  We haven't done it recently very much - at one time he had to do - say 15 minutes - on Khan.... and he would go out of the math area and do programming instead unless I was watching.  Or would waste time watching videos.  anything but the math.   That was a few years ago.  The other day I asked him to spend time on either Khan Academy or Prodigy Math while I had a shower.   He did 3 questions.  :(

 

Depending on where in Khan he is, 3 questions might not be so bad. Khan often has a set up where if student can get the first 2, 3, 5 depending on topic, they are considered to have grasped that concept and get to move on.

 

Would someone be able to sit by him while he worked on Khan and see if it is actually going well or poorly with someone keeping him on task?  And offering a reward such as ok to go to video of his choice on Khan (any subject) if he finishes a topic successfully?  Including allowing him to use a calculator.

 

 

He has a nephew in the same grade as him (the nephew is in PS.)  It would devastate him to be 'held back.'   Got it.

 

He has absolutely no desire to go to PS - and I can't imagine PS being a positive experience for him at this time.  I think it would likely utterly destroy any self-confidence he has.

 

 

My husband had a stroke in August.  He is doing well and is coming home tomorrow.  Once things get setup, The whole family will need to drive to a medical exercise facility... the idea is that I would sit with the kids while they do their work for 45 min to an hour while he exercises, and then he would sit with them while I do some exercise.  So we need most things portable and pretty independent.   And then sometime in the day there would be a Speech Therapist in our house working with him.  We live in a 800sq ft house - so that will require me to take the kids somewhere during that time.    We haven't got everything worked out yet.  But my husband can't drive, so I need to drive him.  

 

I'm so sorry about your dh's stroke.  that also means people are probably under some emotional stress too.

 

 

 

Can some schoolwork be done in car whether that is math or audio books or discussing history--something so as to free up some more time to help where more help is needed?  Math for this boy, maybe other things for other dc.   ???

 

 

 

1) I thought math SLD had a lot more problems with number sense and understanding of numbers, whereas difficulty memorizing math facts is considered a common thing with dyslexia.    

 

No, I don't have any children on the spectrum.

 

2) No, there is no list to get on for evals unless he becomes a public school student.  There is nothing.  Zero.  No support.  I chose to homeschool so my kids get nothing.  The 1-2 year wait is what has been reported as a problem for public school students, in elementary, to get evaluated for reading problems.  Where they would then be put into a reading program that would be inappropriate for a dyslexic child.   I am 98% sure that the public school would fail him completely at this stage of things.

 

3) He was doing great with RightStart. like 90%+ on each test and review lesson.  It was taking a bit longer than I had hoped - but each level, individually, was within the length of time reported.  He started a bit behind because of the struggles in MEP - and he never got quick enough on the math facts.... (he can figure them out correctly, but takes a LOT longer than normal - and I did give him a reference sheet.)   So yes, I knew he was behind - but I did NOT expect him to struggle with other programs like this.  :(

 

1) That is also my understanding.

 

2) Are you in USA?  There are laws that require evaluations to be made within some number of days (can't recall, but it is like 30 or 60 days, not years) of  a written demand.  Though what needs to be done for a homeschooler will differ from place to place. But nowhere in USA is what you are describing for enrolled elementary school students legal--unless no one actually bothers to submit a demand for an evaluation.  Where I am (in Oregon) getting at least a basic evaluation was also something that the PS has to do for homeschool students.  others here may know more about the situation where you are.

 

3) Did he finish with Right Start?  If not, IMO, if it was working, stick with that.   Struggling with a word heavy program like Saxon is no surprise for a dyslexic dc.  If he completed RS, are there other programs that are supposed to follow it well? Not Saxon?  If he is good conceptually, but struggling with dyslexia issues, AoPS may be a much better fit for him, for example.

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I'm so sorry about your dh's stroke.  that also means people are probably under some emotional stress too.

 

 

 

Can some schoolwork be done in car whether that is math or audio books or discussing history--something so as to free up some more time to help where more help is needed?  Math for this boy, maybe other things for other dc.   ???

 

 

 

 

1) That is also my understanding.

 

2) Are you in USA?  There are laws that require evaluations to be made within some number of days (can't recall, but it is like 30 or 60 days, not years) of  a written demand.  Though what needs to be done for a homeschooler will differ from place to place. But nowhere in USA is what you are describing for enrolled elementary school students legal--unless no one actually bothers to submit a demand for an evaluation.  Where I am (in Oregon) getting at least a basic evaluation was also something that the PS has to do for homeschool students.  others here may know more about the situation where you are.

 

3) Did he finish with Right Start?  If not, IMO, if it was working, stick with that.   Struggling with a word heavy program like Saxon is no surprise for a dyslexic dc.  If he completed RS, are there other programs that are supposed to follow it well? Not Saxon?  If he is good conceptually, but struggling with dyslexia issues, AoPS may be a much better fit for him, for example.

She is in Canada and has NO access to evaluations because she homeschools, unfortunatley.  She posted upthread that she really does have no access to evals through the school system.  At all.  And cannot get on any waiting lists.

 

I agree, Saxon might be a bad fit but going back to RS might work.

 

I have more to say but need time to think it through first, OP.  I'm sorry you are in such a difficult position.

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I'm so sorry about your dh's stroke.  that also means people are probably under some emotional stress too.

 

 

 

Can some schoolwork be done in car whether that is math or audio books or discussing history--something so as to free up some more time to help where more help is needed?  Math for this boy, maybe other things for other dc.   ???

 

 

 

 

1) That is also my understanding.

 

2) Are you in USA?  There are laws that require evaluations to be made within some number of days (can't recall, but it is like 30 or 60 days, not years) of  a written demand.  Though what needs to be done for a homeschooler will differ from place to place. But nowhere in USA is what you are describing for enrolled elementary school students legal--unless no one actually bothers to submit a demand for an evaluation.  Where I am (in Oregon) getting at least a basic evaluation was also something that the PS has to do for homeschool students.  others here may know more about the situation where you are.

 

3) Did he finish with Right Start?  If not, IMO, if it was working, stick with that.   Struggling with a word heavy program like Saxon is no surprise for a dyslexic dc.  If he completed RS, are there other programs that are supposed to follow it well? Not Saxon?  If he is good conceptually, but struggling with dyslexia issues, AoPS may be a much better fit for him, for example.

 

- We are in Canada.  In our province, there is no Special Needs help for homeschoolers.  No testing.  No programs.  No money.  Nothing.  

 

- Yes, he finished all the levels in 1st edition RightStart, except for their Hands-on-Geometry course which he started and struggled with.   I let him use his multiples chart, although he often didn't, and he had access to the abacus.

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I'm sorry if I come across as snippy at all.  I have been looking at math programs for him for a few months now.  I thought I had it solved, and spent money, first on the MEP workbooks (to reduce printing... it looked like it was going to be ok), then on Saxon (I bought 5/4 up to 8/7... used, but still...)  and now for my younger kids CLE...  and I need to figure out what might actually work. 

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 If he completed RS, are there other programs that are supposed to follow it well? Not Saxon?  If he is good conceptually, but struggling with dyslexia issues, AoPS may be a much better fit for him, for example.

 

RightStart Math recommends  VideoText Algebra.   Well, for a younger student they recommend RightStart Hands-on Geometry, then partway through that doing both.  For an older student they recommend focusing on the VideoText Algebra, but possibly slowly working through their geometry.   I will look at it again, but It wasn't economically possible earlier this year.  In fact, I got the chance to get it free on a site that does used curriculum Free for Shipping... but the Shipping to Canada was too much for me to afford.   :(

 

I have a hard time imagining AoPS working for him.

 

I've looked at Math U See.... everytime I look at it I want to poke my eyes out...  (ok, honestly I kind of feel like that about Saxon too....)  and it is expensive too. 

 

Teaching Textbooks, besides being expensive, I think he would game the system...

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Have a moment...

 

You don't sound snippy, just really frustrated and concerned.  You are going to be dealing with a lot of changes with your family and there is a lot on your plate.   :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Honestly, I don't think there is going to be an easy answer or a perfect fit.  I think your son has a lot of learning challenges that are going to make any math program at a higher level challenging without a lot of daily help.  BTDT. Meaning he almost certainly is going to need someone sitting right beside him and helping.  Since that is not your reality right now it may be time to just accept that he will NOT be functioning at grade level for math.  He will almost certainly not "catch up" this year.  Truly, asking him to be even more independent while also hoping he will overcome his struggles kind of on his own and get up to grade level in a year guaranteed to be stressful for the whole family is a pipe dream, IMHO.  I think you are setting both of you up for stress and failure. 

 

Deal with how long he needs to take to graduate High School and graduation requirement hoops further down the road.  Right now, try to find a path that works for your family's immediate needs.  Find a path that is actually survivable and keeps your son at least filling in, reinforcing and solidifying the areas he is weak. Worry about getting up to grade level once your family situation is more under control. 

 

It sounds like you have things sort of covered in other areas so for math, maybe there is something that won't make him feel like he is behind but will genuinely help him fill in whatever gaps he has.  

 

Is there a reason he won't use his math facts reference chart?  Can he articulate why?  I would be doing everything possible to provide him scaffolding for the math facts while he uses his resources to grasp concepts and internalize math processes.  If that means a calculator so be it.  As long as he is actually understanding the concepts and internalizing the math processes, a calculator could get him through the math fact weakness.  Work on math facts separately.  Like maybe 5 minutes of targeted practice in specific areas daily but the rest of the time use the reference chart or the calculator.  

 

I do wonder about why he won't use a reference chart.  Does he feel it is cheating?  It isn't.  Not when he has to deal with dyslexia and dysgraphia and most likely other learning challenges.   The reference chart will help his brain free up valuable resources to learn the math material.  Math fact knowledge, while helpful, is NOT mandatory for progressing in math.  You say he grasps concepts but is ONLY really struggling in math facts.  If he truly has no other issues with math then work harder to maybe train him on how to use the reference chart and how to use a calculator.  He may very well have low working memory and or low processing speed, coupled with the other issues.  That makes keeping all of that information available in his brain exceedingly difficult if not impossible.  Scaffold his brain.

 

As for what to use, since TT seems a bad option, and so does Khan Academy and CTC is probably too expensive and Math U See is also expensive (and definitely not independent) I would ask then what is your budget?  What might you be able to actually spend on a program?  Could you ball park it?  That might help us brain storm better options.  If you aren't comfortable I understand.

 

:grouphug:

 

 

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Ok, here's the thing. RightStart math keeps telling people the dc will go from E to Videotext, blah blah, and I don't think for most kids it's true. My dd got to that point and went into BJU math. We tried some other things, did some backtracking (like you did with Saxon) to kind of get in the swing of the new curriculum, and that kind of 4th/5th gr placement was where she was at. 

 

So reality is that, the claims of RS notwithstanding, level B=1st, C=2nd, D=3rd, E=4th. And for a kid to go into that 4th/5th gr range when they transition is pretty much expected. Have you done any achievement testing? You want something like the Woodcock Johnson or WIAT that will kick out actual grade levels and have no ceiling, not a grade-leveled, standardized test. If you can get some achievement testing, that would tell you something. Or sit there with the placement tests and work through them.

 

I'm saying it's not a pretty picture but it's the true. It's an unusual student, an exceptional student, who would go from RS to algebra, imho. Those would be kids who intuit and make leaps very quickly, because there would be significant gaps. Didn't they just come out with level F finally, after, um, 12 years of telling us it would soon be out? LOL If E fit him well, personally I would continue on with F. Fractions are THE THING that trip people up in later math, so they're something to nail. If he was progressing nicely in RS, I would consider RS F even if the logistics seem hard. I would look ahead at the lessons and plan teaching him once a week and assigning homework. Or plan teaching him twice a week and assigning homework. Or hire a tutor.

 

Alternately, hire a tutor. That's probably not your budget, but I'm just saying it's an option.

 

If you go with RS F and weekly instruction with homework, I would look into some Daily Math Warm-Up, Daily Problem Solving Warm-up workbooks like from Teacher Created. They would give him some use for those skills that are dropping and they would be independent. I think they probably go through gr 6, which is where it sounds like he places (somewhere in that 4-6 range). I use them with my ds (at a lower level obviously) and like them.

 

A calculator is a normal thing at this stage. What I did with my dd was to tell her she could use the calculator for individual math facts (17+9, etc.) that were taking processing speed but NOT for the whole math problem (29837 divided by 37) kwim? And I gave her tools like addition tables and multiplication tables. Her facts were just really, really slow to come, in spite of everything we did. The ADHD gave her very low processing speed, very low, and her working memory was low. Working memory is the scratch memory of the brain and how things get into long-term memory. In other words, working on *working memory* instead of math facts might actual do more for him. 

 

The low processing speed on my dd made math very tedious and fatiguing. I used to say on the boards that she had steam coming out her ears. She's still that way. Things just fatigue her brain. So it's something to watch for and account for. It's a reason to let him use accommodations or shorter sessions. You can think about what is most important and what is less important. To me, life skills, like being able to do percentages and estimating when you shop, tell if something is a good deal with a calculator, understand contracts, these are important. Some things are less important, like whether I do division by hand or with the calculator, kwim? This is an age to get very realistic, because your time begins to run out. 

 

Personally, I think MUS is better for this situation than TT. We used both in high school, and I'm just saying, contrasting them, I would lean toward MUS. And I would *not* get into some rabbit hole of doing tons of computation. At this point, in 9th, I would be nailing fractions and moving on. I would at least want the goal of getting through algebra 1 and geometry by the end of high school if he can. That means fractions in 9th, pre-algebra in 10th, algebra 1 in 11th, geometry in 12th.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Just thought I would update people a bit.

 

I kept doing research, and found (in a round-about-way) a school textbook (and all the teacher resources) available from our Teacher's Library (which we can use as homeschoolers).  The course is for struggling students in grade 7 or 8 to help them with the areas that they struggle in - up to 3 grade levels lower, and there are similar courses for younger grades that could be used as a resource if an even more fundamental skill is missing.

 

For each small unit, (withing the various math strands) there is a diagnostic test.  Based on the results, it then has different 'pathways' through the lessons to help them with the skills they are struggling with.  So there might be up to 5 lessons in the unit, or only 1 (or none, If they get it all right).    The course is supposedly designed to be able to be used for tutors, or within a regular class, or in a special course. 

 

I am trying out a combination of this course and Khan Academy.   He will do the diagnostic test for each little unit.  Then we will go through the pathway lessons that make sense... this requires some teaching from me.  And I am assigning similar assignments in Khan Academy, for extra practice, and for review (because I believe that Khan Academy reviews things in the Master Challenges...)

 

I hope this works to bring him to a good grade 8 level at least.  I can work out a plan after that for next year when he is in grade 10. 

I know one of the schools around here has a Math Foundations course in grade 9.... I'm tempted to phone the school to find out what textbook they use...  as an option if he is still struggling or this course doesn't work out.... 

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I haven't read any of the responses. 

I am just writing what I use for my dyslexic sons.

 We did Saxon. f. At the moment ds14 ( profoundly dyslexic) has just started algebra 1/2 . I write out every single problem for him.  first meltdown started at chapter 3 when it was a revision of division. he didn't melt down as such, just went into his room, barricaded the door and wept for over an hour.  :crying:  :crying:  :crying:  He doesn't have rapid recall of basic math facts like times tables quick enough to be able to do division problems. HIs working memory is low and his processing speed is  extremely low.  He does have a times table cheat sheet., but he feels personal that he is too old to use it. I have given him a  very basic calculator. He now can just concentrate on the concepts and use the calculator to do the calculation part. It is better that he can work out how math works, understand how to manipulate numbers etc than get hung up on how to do division and not progress.

 

This son now is almost enjoying the math. he feels he can almost do the lesson independently. the only subject he can........   

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I thought math SLD had a lot more problems with number sense and understanding of numbers, whereas difficulty memorizing math facts is considered a common thing with dyslexia.    

 

No, I don't have any children on the spectrum.

 

No, there is no list to get on for evals unless he becomes a public school student.  There is nothing.  Zero.  No support.  I chose to homeschool so my kids get nothing.  The 1-2 year wait is what has been reported as a problem for public school students, in elementary, to get evaluated for reading problems.  Where they would then be put into a reading program that would be inappropriate for a dyslexic child.   I am 98% sure that the public school would fail him completely at this stage of things.

 

He was doing great with RightStart. like 90%+ on each test and review lesson.  It was taking a bit longer than I had hoped - but each level, individually, was within the length of time reported.  He started a bit behind because of the struggles in MEP - and he never got quick enough on the math facts.... (he can figure them out correctly, but takes a LOT longer than normal - and I did give him a reference sheet.)   So yes, I knew he was behind - but I did NOT expect him to struggle with other programs like this.  :(

 

(ETA: Just saw your update!  Glad you found something great to try!)

 

Is there a university within driving distance that has a graduate program in psychology?  Check and see if they offer reduced-rate testing services performed by student clinicians.  A full eval will give you the best results.  However, I totally understand that sometimes it's just not possible.

 

The bolded sentence jumped out at me.  How's his processing speed?  This youtube video is an excellent explanation of slow processing speed.  It's about an hour long, but so worthwhile.

 

Also, check his working memory.  Poor working memory can make math very difficult.  You can do an informal digit span test at home.  Here's a video showing one being administered (you can keep going with more digits until he maxes out).  Compare his results to this table and you'll get an idea of whether or not his working memory is relatively weak compared to his age-mates.  

 

Since math facts memorization and retrieval are a problem, always allow use of reference materials, times tables, etc.  It's not cheating.  What do we adults do when we can't remember something?  We look it up.  Same thing here.

 

My daughter uses Teaching Textbooks, but it is expensive and not every student clicks with it.  They have a very good resale value, though, so if you can afford to buy a used copy you can resell it for about what you paid for it.  Oh, I just thought of something: I've heard that TT is beta testing an online program for about $5/mo.  You can try emailing them and asking if you can be a part of that.  If nothing else, it allows you to test drive TT without dropping $100 for it.

 

I used to own Learn Math Fast.  I like it, but it's very reading-heavy.  IF you can read the lessons to him (as needed) and provide him with extra practice, it might work well.

Edited by shinyhappypeople
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Ooo thanks! My ds is diagnosed with SLD math and we have an IEP through the ps, even though we homeschool. I've never quite figured out what they actually use for intervention for math, so that will be interesting to go look at it. I have stuff I use (Ronit Bird, etc.), but sometimes there's a lot of strength to published intervention materials. When things are very sequential, very gradual, in print, sometimes they give my ds a predictability that is really good for him. He has made surprising progress when I find materials like that. And sometimes not, lol. But yeah, I'll go look. :D

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  • 3 years later...
On 10/30/2017 at 10:06 PM, scoutingmom said:

Sorry, thought I'd mentioned it. "Leaps and Bounds". Actually "Leaps and Bounds toward Math Understanding" http://www.nelson.com/leapsandbounds/ ' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'> http://www.nelson.com/leapsandbounds/

It's been a few years. How did this resource work out for you? Or did you find any other solutions that you would recommend instead?

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  • 3 weeks later...

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