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Need some perspective....excluding boyfriends/spouses at family events


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But a number of PPs suggested that she go ahead and exclude the boyfriend and if that causes a rift with the daughter, too bad. I think if there is any level of real concern about the boyfriend - or even if not at this age, because to me living with a boyfriend at 18 is a concern in itself - putting the daughter in an "us or him" situation is a bad idea.

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My understanding is that she found the environment created by the other child's behavior intolerable given her own health condition, so it's not a real option.

 

You misunderstand. The home is stressful, but it is not intolerable. If you had read the old posts as you claimed you had, you would understand that. 

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*FOR ME* I would try to win the boyfriend over to changing his mind about me. I wouldn't try to talk to him directly about his feelings about you again. I'd just try to be inviting and hospitable.

 

One reason for this is because if he is controlling, this can give your daughter a chance to see it more clearly.

 

If dinner with them will make you uncomfortable, I'd plan something else, quiet with Dh alone.

 

Is their any activity you can do alone, such as shopping on her day off? I'd try to maximize those opportunities.

 

I would never criticize him to her again because that will only draw them closer together.

 

So I'd include him, be loving to him and tell Dd that you are sorry you ever said anything bad about him, and you are trying very hard to make up for it.

 

I have made a promise to my kids that I will love whoever they love and I'm keeping it.

 

I had a good friend who had a son-in-law she loved and a son-in-law she hated.

 

15 years later, the good SIL got hooked on speed and started sleeping with his dealer. The daughter married to the bad SIL passed away. He drives the grand baby across the country several times a year and does everything in his power to keep their relationship close even though he could have just turned his back on my friend.

 

I never want to alienate someone my kid loves. It just doesn't serve me. It doesn't serve my kid.

Edited by amy g.
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But a number of PPs suggested that she go ahead and exclude the boyfriend and if that causes a rift with the daughter, too bad. I think if there is any level of real concern about the boyfriend - or even if not at this age, because to me living with a boyfriend at 18 is a concern in itself - putting the daughter in an "us or him" situation is a bad idea.

 

I don't think this is correct. I think people have encouraged Tap to stand up for herself and not allow herself to be manipulated by this young man - to have her birthday party the way that she wants to have it. People have acknowledged that that may cause difficulty in her relationship with her daughter. That is not the same thing as intentionally creating a rift. This young man is not a family member. 

 

Are you proposing that Tap allow herself to be manipulated to the extent that something like her personal birthday celebration has to take place on this young man's terms? Do you realize how damaging manipulation can be to a person? It doesn't just damage relationships, it damages individual people. Are you saying that because Tap's daughter has chosen this young man as her boyfriend,  Tap has to agree to allow him to manipulate her? If so, is there ever a point when the manipulation would be unacceptable? If not, why not? What if they marry - does Tap have to put up with the manipulation for an indefinite period of time? It seems like you are encouraging Tap to do the dance of an abused person who constantly has to weigh wether or not to stand up for herself while considering the possible consequences, and you are telling Tap that she, personally, is not worth it, that she has to allow herself to be manipulated in order to keep the peace. What kind of example would that set for Tap's daughter if, indeed, this young man is abusing her or even if the relationship is just unhealthy or not viable long term for any reason? 

Edited by TechWife
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*FOR ME* I would try to win the boyfriend over to changing his mind about me. I wouldn't try to talk to him directly about his feelings about you again. I'd just try to be inviting and hospitable.

 

One reason for this is because if he is controlling, this can give your daughter a chance to see it more clearly.

 

If dinner with them will make you uncomfortable, I'd plan something else, quiet with Dh alone.

 

Is their any activity you can do alone, such as shopping on her day off? I'd try to maximize those opportunities.

 

I would never criticize him to her again because that will only draw them closer together.

 

So I'd include him, be loving to him and tell Dd that you are sorry you ever said anything bad about him, and you are trying very hard to make up for it.

 

I have made a promise to my kids that I will love whoever they love and I'm keeping it.

 

I had a good friend who had a son-in-law she loved and a son-in-law she hated.

 

15 years later, the good SIL got hooked on speed and started sleeping with his dealer. The daughter married to the bad SIL passed away. He drives the grand baby across the country several times a year and does everything in his power to keep their relationship close even though he could have just turned his back on my friend.

 

I never want to alienate someone my kid loves. It just doesn't serve me. It doesn't serve my kid.

I wish I could like this more than once.

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But a number of PPs suggested that she go ahead and exclude the boyfriend and if that causes a rift with the daughter, too bad. I think if there is any level of real concern about the boyfriend - or even if not at this age, because to me living with a boyfriend at 18 is a concern in itself - putting the daughter in an "us or him" situation is a bad idea.

My son is 17 and I can't even begin to imagine being okay with him sleeping over at a girlfriend's house, let alone living there, so I understand what you're saying, but Tap has been here for a long time and she has always been a very smart and sensible woman, so I give her the benefit of the doubt that she has made the best possible decisions for her own dd given the circumstances.

 

I know a few people have suggested that she exclude the boyfriend from her birthday celebration even if it causes a rift with her dd, but I think most people realize that Tap won't do that if she thinks it will upset her dd. Her relationship with her dd seems to be paramount to her -- to the point where she has gone through an awful lot of maintain it. I'm sure she doesn't like the idea that her dd is so dependent on the boyfriend, and I'll bet she probably has some of the same concerns you mentioned. I know I don't like her dd being so dependent on the guy because they both seem so young to me, and there is certainly a possibility that they will eventually break up, which could be very hard on Tap's dd. But one thing I absolutely believe is that if the relationship with the boyfriend doesn't work out, Tap's dd will know she can go to her mom for help and comfort.

Edited by Catwoman
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I don't think this is correct. I think people have encouraged Tap to stand up for herself and not allow herself to be manipulated by this young man - to have her birthday party the way that she wants to have it. People have acknowledged that that may cause difficulty in her relationship with her daughter. That is not the same thing as intentionally creating a rift. This young man is not a family member.

 

Are you proposing that Tap allow herself to be manipulated to the extent that something like her personal birthday celebration has to take place on this young man's terms? Do you realize how damaging manipulation can be to a person? It doesn't just damage relationships, it damages individual people. Are you saying that because Tap's daughter has chosen this young man as her boyfriend, Tap has to agree to allow him to manipulate her? If so, is there ever a point when the manipulation would be unacceptable? If not, why not? What if they marry - does Tap have to put up with the manipulation for an indefinite period of time? It seems like you are encouraging Tap to do the dance of an abused person who constantly has to weigh wether or not to stand up for herself while considering the possible consequences, and you are telling Tap that she, personally, is not worth it, that she has to allow herself to be manipulated in order to keep the peace. What kind of example would that set for Tap's daughter if, indeed, this young man is abusing her or even if the relationship is just unhealthy or not viable long term for any reason?

Yes!

 

I don't think Tap would do anything to risk her relationship with her dd, but I think it's incredibly unfair that she can't even enjoy one simple celebration without feeling like she has to kiss up to her dd's boyfriend.

 

I think the guy is a bit of a drama queen, and he has no reason to grow up and learn how to act like an adult because no one is challenging his rude behavior. I wish someone in the family would step up and defend Tap, because this young man has been way out of line for quite some time now.

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I would never criticize him to her again because that will only draw them closer together.

 

So I'd include him, be loving to him and tell Dd that you are sorry you ever said anything bad about him, and you are trying very hard to make up for it.

 

I have made a promise to my kids that I will love whoever they love and I'm keeping it.

 

 

 

When people behave in normal ways, this is a normal reaction. However, this young man is not really behaving in a normal way. 

 

I don't want to go into too many details, because it is not my story to share, but I know someone whose father told her when she was dating that her boyfriend was not a good man. He told her when they were engaged. After they married, he told her if she ever wanted to come home, she was welcome. He tolerated the presence of the man in the family, but never liked him and didn't go out of his way to spend time with him. After many years, recalling her father's past statements and actions were part of what convinced her that her husband's behavior was not normal and that it was okay for her to leave her abusive husband. 

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I understand about controlling and potentially abusive relationships.

 

My experience has been that the more outsiders comment negatively, the more that they are drawn together. It is so easy for the abuser to triangle and isolate them.

 

When the family is warm and loving...no matter what, the abused partner can see the situation more clearly.

 

They also know that they have a family to come home to.

 

I don't doubt that other parenting choices can have a positive outcome too, but that is not what I would do.

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. It may not have previously occurred to Tap that this guy's problems have implications beyond the tenor of her own interactions with him, but now people have pointed it out to her.

it has occurred to her. Weve discussed that on st least two precious threads. There are no good options. I remember one specific thread where Tap asked for advice and ideas specifically with the hope that someone would have a novel brainstorm to give her daughter option and we were all stumped. Really there's a ton to this backstory.

 

Taps not dumping her daughter. These events have been agonized over for a long time.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited by fairfarmhand
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I don't think this is correct. I think people have encouraged Tap to stand up for herself and not allow herself to be manipulated by this young man - to have her birthday party the way that she wants to have it. People have acknowledged that that may cause difficulty in her relationship with her daughter. That is not the same thing as intentionally creating a rift. This young man is not a family member. 

 

Are you proposing that Tap allow herself to be manipulated to the extent that something like her personal birthday celebration has to take place on this young man's terms? Do you realize how damaging manipulation can be to a person? It doesn't just damage relationships, it damages individual people. Are you saying that because Tap's daughter has chosen this young man as her boyfriend,  Tap has to agree to allow him to manipulate her? If so, is there ever a point when the manipulation would be unacceptable? If not, why not? What if they marry - does Tap have to put up with the manipulation for an indefinite period of time? It seems like you are encouraging Tap to do the dance of an abused person who constantly has to weigh wether or not to stand up for herself while considering the possible consequences, and you are telling Tap that she, personally, is not worth it, that she has to allow herself to be manipulated in order to keep the peace. What kind of example would that set for Tap's daughter if, indeed, this young man is abusing her or even if the relationship is just unhealthy or not viable long term for any reason? 

 

I think that the parents of a chronically ill teen who doesn't drive have a degree of agency in the fact she's living with this guy that they wouldn't have if she had decided to move in with someone as a truly independent adult (in more than the bare legal sense), and as such they have a certain degree of responsibility to stay engaged with the situation. How is a guy good enough to take over the role of providing a home, but not good enough to come to a birthday party?

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I think that the parents of a chronically ill teen who doesn't drive have a degree of agency in the fact she's living with this guy that they wouldn't have if she had decided to move in with someone as a truly independent adult (in more than the bare legal sense), and as such they have a certain degree of responsibility to stay engaged with the situation. How is a guy good enough to take over the role of providing a home, but not good enough to come to a birthday party?

I feel like you're missing the point about the way this young man treats Tap.

 

She can't force her dd to break up with the boyfriend, even though the boyfriend has made it abundantly clear that he doesn't like Tap. All Tap is asking is for is a few hours -- a fun, peaceful birthday dinner with her husband and children -- and she knows that won't happen if the boyfriend is there. I don't understand why she is being vilified for that.

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First, I've been here quite a while, despite the low post count. Tap is NOT the 'bad guy' here. She is stuck between a rock and a hard place, which is an incredibly difficult place to be as a parent.

Second, Tap's dd is 18. Even if Tap demanded she come home or move elsewhere, dd doesn't have to.

Third, I believe Tap's dd does stay at home sometimes. It's not like she's ostracized her.

Fourth, Tap has tried over and over to please both of her children. To see that they are loved, healthy, and taken care of.

Fifth, bf is a Jackass, with a capital "J". He got mad once because Tap commented to dd's doctor staff that she was eating chicken a lot when the drs suggested dd needed more iron (I think that's right, correct me if I'm wrong someone). He actually got mad because he perceived that as Tap looking down on his family for eating chicken. If that's not totally absurd and **new word alert** Jackassish behavior, I don't know what is.

And finally, Tap deserves one unstressed and fun evening with her family. And I hope she gets it.

I had forgotten the chicken story! The boyfriend was completely ridiculous! It was unimaginable to me that anyone could have gotten upset about such a quick, offhand comment that was obviously completely normal and that wasn't even directed toward him. All Tap was doing was telling the doctor what her dd ate, and the boyfriend found a way to twist it around and turn it into something to get highly insulted about.

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I feel like you're missing the point about the way this young man treats Tap.

 

She can't force her dd to break up with the boyfriend, even though the boyfriend has made it abundantly clear that he doesn't like Tap. All Tap is asking is for is a few hours -- a fun, peaceful birthday dinner with her husband and children -- and she knows that won't happen if the boyfriend is there. I don't understand why she is being vilified for that.

Setting that aside, though, it doesn't ultimately really matter what people on the internet think or what is "right" or "wrong" in her request. It's entirely possible that asking for that is going to alienate her daughter or result in her daughter not coming because her boyfriend has not been invited when boyfriends have been welcome in the past. Tap has agency to make that choice, but her daughter has agency to make choices in response. 

 

I still think it's entirely likely that her dd is going to take offense by that simply because if Tap thought it was going to be no big deal, she would have already said something to her daughter and that would have been that. I mean, if it was a no harm, no foul request she'd just ask it confident that her dd would say, "Ok, cool, Mom. See you at dinner."

 

So, yeah, Tap is entirely within her right to say "I don't want bf in my house or at my birthday because I don't like him." Then what? Is the discomfort of the evening worse than the possible loss of the larger relationship with her daughter. Maybe it is? Maybe it isn't. It's still a possible outcome.

 

I'd be more like amy g. That wouldn't be worth it to me. Maybe Tap's different. Ultimately that's the choice, though, right?

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Setting that aside, though, it doesn't ultimately really matter what people on the internet think or what is "right" or "wrong" in her request. It's entirely possible that asking for that is going to alienate her daughter or result in her daughter not coming because her boyfriend has not been invited when boyfriends have been welcome in the past. Tap has agency to make that choice, but her daughter has agency to make choices in response.

 

I still think it's entirely likely that her dd is going to take offense by that simply because if Tap thought it was going to be no big deal, she would have already said something to her daughter and that would have been that. I mean, if it was a no harm, no foul request she'd just ask it confident that her dd would say, "Ok, cool, Mom. See you at dinner."

 

So, yeah, Tap is entirely within her right to say "I don't want bf in my house or at my birthday because I don't like him." Then what? Is the discomfort of the evening worse than the possible loss of the larger relationship with her daughter. Maybe it is? Maybe it isn't. It's still a possible outcome.

 

I'd be more like amy g. That wouldn't be worth it to me. Maybe Tap's different. Ultimately that's the choice, though, right?

I agree with you. I don't think Tap will risk her relationship with her dd just so she can exclude the boyfriend from her birthday dinner. But I wish she could. I wish her dd would offer to leave the guy at home. I wish Tap's son or her dh would talk to the dd and ask her to surprise her mom by showing up without the boyfriend and her dd would think that was a great idea.

 

I wish Tap could, just this once, be able to think of herself first and not have to worry that the one simple thing she wants for her birthday probably can't happen because the special snowflake boyfriend might get offended. Again.

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I think that the parents of a chronically ill teen who doesn't drive have a degree of agency in the fact she's living with this guy that they wouldn't have if she had decided to move in with someone as a truly independent adult (in more than the bare legal sense), and as such they have a certain degree of responsibility to stay engaged with the situation. How is a guy good enough to take over the role of providing a home, but not good enough to come to a birthday party?

 

 

I was a pp who thought that Tap could tell her dd that she would like the dd at her b'day dinner, but not the bf.

 

 In answer to your question, I believe that Tap is staying engaged with the situation her dd is in.  

 

There are a lot of people who are able to provide a home for someone, but not necessarily ones who will be invited out to any particular dinner.

 

 So far as I know, it is the bf's father who is most likely "providing the home" in any case, not the bf.  I'm not sure that any more need to invite the bf to b'day dinner exists in this case than if the 2 dc were at college and sharing a dorm room.

 

I would feel differently about that if they were actually in their own home as adults whether married or in a domestic partnership.  

 

 

I think if it were Tap's dd's b'day, then, yes, the bf would need to be invited.  And I think Thanksgiving dinner or an equivalent, likely is something to which the bf needs to be invited. But I don't think that applies to Tap's own birthday dinner.

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I had forgotten the chicken story! The boyfriend was completely ridiculous! It was unimaginable to me that anyone could have gotten upset about such a quick, offhand comment that was obviously completely normal and that wasn't even directed toward him. All Tap was doing was telling the doctor what her dd ate, and the boyfriend found a way to twist it around and turn it into something to get highly insulted about.

Yep, he turned it around and made it all about himself. My hunch is he has a passive aggressive family that reads between the lines and makes assumptions about what people "really mean". I feel bad for Tap in this situation.

 

To also reaffirm what was already said by others DD is 18 not 15. She cannot be made to break up with him or move somewhere else. She is not a child anymore. At 18 many kids are off at college, living in dorms and spending the night with whoever they choose too. Jumping on Tap for her grown daughter living with her boyfriend seems odd to me. Ideal? No but completely out of the norm? No, not at all. I know lots of young adults who choose this route.

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I think that the parents of a chronically ill teen who doesn't drive have a degree of agency in the fact she's living with this guy that they wouldn't have if she had decided to move in with someone as a truly independent adult (in more than the bare legal sense), and as such they have a certain degree of responsibility to stay engaged with the situation. How is a guy good enough to take over the role of providing a home, but not good enough to come to a birthday party?

 

I am not sure what  you mean by "a degree of agency." Tap is engaged with her daughter. Her boyfriend's family is providing the home, not the boyfriend. 

 

I think the short answer, though,  is that you don't buy access to someone. You don't pay in order to become part of the family. Providing shelter doesn't make you a good person. You have to build relationships to be part of the family.  Where she lives is Tap's daughter's choice. Who Tap has at her birthday party should be Tap's choice. 

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Yes!

 

I don't think Tap would do anything to risk her relationship with her dd, but I think it's incredibly unfair that she can't even enjoy one simple celebration without feeling like she has to kiss up to her dd's boyfriend.

 

I think the guy is a bit of a drama queen, and he has no reason to grow up and learn how to act like an adult because no one is challenging his rude behavior. I wish someone in the family would step up and defend Tap, because this young man has been way out of line for quite some time now.

 

Exactly. 

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I'm sorry -- I don't think I understand your question. (I'm not trying to be snarky -- I really don't understand! :) )

When I asked what he has done to show disdain for her the response included:

 

"He has directly accused her of not liking him, and he doesn't believe her when she tells him that's not the case,"  

 

From what I read, it sounds as if his accusation that she does not like him is true;  Is she being honest with him if she says it is not the case?  

 

From his perspective I can see "I don't think she likes me and I tried to address it.  She said that isn't the case.  But, she doesn't want me to come to her birthday celebration because she hates when I am around. How can I address something that she tells me isn't the case?  If it isn't that she doesn't like me, why doesn't she want me there?"

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That's such an excellent point about the dd's behavior changing when the boyfriend is around. It made me remember that in past threads, I have been concerned that the boyfriend might be a control freak who is trying to separate Tap's dd from her family. It seems like he's always driving a wedge between them, and that's troubling.

Idolize

Isolate

 

First two classic steps of an abuser in a new relationship.

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When I asked what he has done to show disdain for her the response included:

 

"He has directly accused her of not liking him, and he doesn't believe her when she tells him that's not the case,"

 

From what I read, it sounds as if his accusation that she does not like him is true; Is she being honest with him if she says it is not the case?

 

From his perspective I can see "I don't think she likes me and I tried to address it. She said that isn't the case. But, she doesn't want me to come to her birthday celebration because she hates when I am around. How can I address something that she tells me isn't the case? If it isn't that she doesn't like me, why doesn't she want me there?"

She was trying to get along with him. He rejected her at every possible opportunity. He looked for the tiniest slight in everything she said to him, or even in his presence. I think she may have reached a point where she's tired of trying when he refuses to make even the slightest effort in return. How long should she be expected to keep kissing up to this guy?

 

Edited to add: I feel like I'm not explaining this well enough. I would suggest you go back and read the old threads about this boyfriend so you'll see why some of us have such negative feelings toward him. (I'm not trying to be dismissive; I just think if you read the old threads, you'll understand! :) )

Edited by Catwoman
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I haven't read all of the responses so I'm just reacting to the original post.

 

BF's actions remind me almost exactly of my sister's DIL who has been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder.  Of course I have no idea if that's true with BF, of course.  But, I can't tell you how very similar his actions and reactions and interpretations are to this person in my sister's life.   IT IS PAINFUL.  And, whatever is going on with your dd and her BF will be so much harder if they get married without dealing with all of this.  I'd be doing everything I could to be loving, close, and honest with my dd.  I'd try and help her build interests in other areas and have fun in different ways, separate from her BF, that encourage her to be strong and independent.  I'd maybe even plan a trip with the just two of you or something.  Whatever it takes.  And, I'd change the dinner to immediate family only.  

 

:grouphug:

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When people behave in normal ways, this is a normal reaction. However, this young man is not really behaving in a normal way. 

 

I don't want to go into too many details, because it is not my story to share, but I know someone whose father told her when she was dating that her boyfriend was not a good man. He told her when they were engaged. After they married, he told her if she ever wanted to come home, she was welcome. He tolerated the presence of the man in the family, but never liked him and didn't go out of his way to spend time with him. After many years, recalling her father's past statements and actions were part of what convinced her that her husband's behavior was not normal and that it was okay for her to leave her abusive husband. 

 

It is so so very subjective, though.

 

My IL's have said and described by behaviour, my ideas, the way I do things in all kinds of ways - not normal, crazy, "old country".  Well, it's their opinion.  I disagree. 

 

I haven't been in their house for over 5 yrs now.  My husband just takes the kids.  It's not something I ever wanted for my family, but it is what it is now.

 

FTR, I do think this guy is very disrespectful to Tap and I said as much in her previous thread. 

Edited by SereneHome
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Yeah, the nurse/dr was trying to help dd and JABF (jacka** bf) made it about himself. I don't remember any abuse red flags, but he's definitely nuts.

 

if you've read the personality disorder threads - you'll see THAT IS a classic red flag.

e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g. is about *them*.  e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g.  

 

i  hope it's just immaturity on his part -but given what she's described, would be wary it might be something more.

 

Yep, he turned it around and made it all about himself. My hunch is he has a passive aggressive family that reads between the lines and makes assumptions about what people "really mean". I feel bad for Tap in this situation.

 

To also reaffirm what was already said by others DD is 18 not 15. She cannot be made to break up with him or move somewhere else. She is not a child anymore. At 18 many kids are off at college, living in dorms and spending the night with whoever they choose too. Jumping on Tap for her grown daughter living with her boyfriend seems odd to me. Ideal? No but completely out of the norm? No, not at all. I know lots of young adults who choose this route.

 

and that is a flag.

 

 

Idolize

Isolate

 

First two classic steps of an abuser in a new relationship.

 

making everything about himself.

Edited by gardenmom5
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I haven't read all of the responses so I'm just reacting to the original post.

 

BF's actions remind me almost exactly of my sister's DIL who has been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder.  Of course I have no idea if that's true with BF, of course.  But, I can't tell you how very similar his actions and reactions and interpretations are to this person in my sister's life.   IT IS PAINFUL.  And, whatever is going on with your dd and her BF will be so much harder if they get married without dealing with all of this.  I'd be doing everything I could to be loving, close, and honest with my dd.  I'd try and help her build interests in other areas and have fun in different ways, separate from her BF, that encourage her to be strong and independent.  I'd maybe even plan a trip with the just two of you or something.  Whatever it takes.  And, I'd change the dinner to immediate family only.  

 

:grouphug:

 

he reminds me of my grandmother - who likely had a personality disorder.  it would explain so much. the only thing you can do - is avoid them like the plague.  if you're related to them . . . boundaries, boundaries, and more boundaries.

 

if someone has never dealt with someone with a personality disorder - it can be beyond comprehension.  it is so subtle.  outsiders who have no experience with personality disorders will almost never see "it" - no matter how much you tell them.

if they decide they don't like you, nothing you do will ever good enough.  nothing.  i used to joke my grandmother took miranda rights her motto'  ANYTHING you say WILL be used against you.  *anything*.  I could say "i love you" - and some day, some time - it would be used against me.

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My inlaws purposely exclude some of the spouses and gc. I won't bore you with the control attempts, although they are humorous.

 

Were I you, I would tell the kid he needs to understand the concept of respect.  Invite him, but tell him you will respect if he doesn't come as its not right to come if he isn't able to celebrate.  You can indicate you can respect that, but you can't respect coming and stinking up the event.

 

Is your dd sticking with this fella because he is telling her he can give her a better life, and she sees no other options?  

 

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So, I'm skipping most of these comments in the middle of the thread because I don't have the energy to read them. Hope I didn't miss anything important.

 

Let's see if I have this straight. This is the same boyfriend who called you judgmental a few times, right? I said at the time that I could see how your statements sounded judgmental, even if that's not what you intended.

 

Now he's saying you don't like him and he doesn't want to talk to you. To be fair, unless I'm wildly off the mark here, you don't like him. You have your reasons, and they're valid, but he's correct: You just don't like him. He was perhaps a bit overly direct and blunt with his request, but if he comes from a background where people hint around their true feelings and snipe at each other obliquely he might feel that this sort of directness is the only way to make sure you're understood. (Is this immature? Perhaps. I don't have the whole picture here. But he's much younger than everybody on this thread. Young adults are still, well, young.)

 

So you have a few options.

 

You can say to him, or your daughter, in a very direct way "He's welcome to come, but since we don't really like each other I won't mind if he doesn't show up or if he just gives me his best wishes and leaves. I would really like to see you, though, and will miss you if you don't come." I don't think this would go over well with most people, but you never know - it might play great with Mr. "You don't like me!" Some people really like refreshing honesty.

 

If nobody else is bringing along a significant other (other than perhaps their spouse) you can say "I'd really like to make this family-only, we hardly get together to do that anymore!", but if they are bringing dates then it's hard to pass that off. Her boyfriend whom she lives with and who goes with her to medical appointments is a very important person in her life. Like him or not, you don't want to put her in a position where she feels like choosing between the two of you.

 

You can forego a family dinner and just get together with your daughter one-on-one. If you're having a special "girl's day out" thing, you won't be excluding him.

 

You can have your family dinner and make sure to seat him far from you, and then limit your direct interactions with him to "Hello" and "Are you ready to order" and "It was great seeing you!". (And as a note, usual rules of manners state that couples are not seated together, but are split up so as to encourage them to mingle. It's assumed they spend enough time talking together normally.) This is the option I'd go with, honestly. It's pretty late in the game to change your plans, and I think talking to him directly is not a winning option.

 

And now I'm going to take a paragraph to defend this young man. Not because his words are that defensible, but because almost nobody else is doing it and he's getting pretty beat up here!

 

It is okay to set a boundary of "I'm not going to talk to this person", and it's okay to tell them that directly if necessary. (It's usually not okay to go to their house to do it, but again, I don't expect people barely out of adolescence to always be perfect at it.) Whether or not he's justified in thinking that Tap didn't like him before he called her judgmental and said he thought she didn't like him, I will say again that "she's judging me" was not a totally wild response to what she said in her last thread. Could this indicate some sort of personality disorder or be a sign that he's potentially abusive? Maybe - but it seems to me more likely that he's just very used to people judging and criticizing each other using just that sort of attack. These sort of experiences can set your expectations in weird ways. (For example, I personally have an almost visceral response to the phrase "walking on eggshells", because people in my life have used that phrase to complain that I wasn't letting them say egregiously inappropriate things without comment. I'm sure that's not what Tap means when she uses that phrase, or what any of you mean when talking about her, but it's been hard for me to not immediately jump to that conclusion! And I've had years more practice dealing with people and being an adult than this man. All it takes is three words and I'm shuddering.)

 

I think it's probably more helpful to focus on how to respond to this request in a way that makes everybody, if not happy, not especially unhappy than to try to figure out exactly how much of a jerk this man is, and what dire consequences are implied by it. Does it matter if he made his request because he's an immature abusive narcissist or because Tap is a terrible human being who hates him and doesn't love her kid*? (Or because there's just some miscommunication going on and building up?) No, not really - and I think that acting as though you think the last one is the truth is probably the best thing to do in general, even if you really don't.

 

* I don't think that's true at all, and think that's a terrible thing to say to somebody, much less to repeat over and over again.

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I don't have answers, just so sorry that you are going through this  :grouphug:   Family dynamics and changes are tough.  When two sets of values and lifestyles come together, it can be hard to figure out how to make it work.  If your daughter ends up remaining with him long term, then I hope  you can work things out.  It won't be easy, but I am hopeful.  Hang in there.  :grouphug:

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Yep, he turned it around and made it all about himself. My hunch is he has a passive aggressive family that reads between the lines and makes assumptions about what people "really mean". I feel bad for Tap in this situation.

 

Not to excuse the BF in question, but there ARE people who are sneaky about hiding their poisonous insults in a whole heaping spoonful of sugar and who feign innocence when called out on it. So if someone is used to those kind of people, then "reading between the lines" is a defense mechanism. There's a whole branch of MIL's family who are like that and I am very glad that we live on the opposite coast from them and rarely see them.

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Not to excuse the BF in question, but there ARE people who are sneaky about hiding their poisonous insults in a whole heaping spoonful of sugar and who feign innocence when called out on it. So if someone is used to those kind of people, then "reading between the lines" is a defense mechanism. There's a whole branch of MIL's family who are like that and I am very glad that we live on the opposite coast from them and rarely see them.

Yep, that is kind of what I meant when I said he probably has a passive aggressive family who reads between the lines. Those people create the double bind parenting effect. They are unpredictable and you never know where you stand. It could be having a parent who is syrupy sweet to a guest and the minute that guest leaves parent is saying nasty comments. Kids who grow up with this can be very unsettled and cannot take things at face value. They learn to be suspicious of people's intention and often read people incorrectly. He does sound this way to me. I could be wrong, but atleast to me and the small bit I have read about him he doesn't seem abusive he just seems like hr is overly sensitive. Like someone raised this way who now has a broken social sensor and probably responds poorly to bluntness, directness or anything not delivered in a really smoothed over way.

Edited by nixpix5
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Well, I still remember when the boyfriend was spending at least half of his nights sleeping over at Tap's house and how she went so far as to serve them their favorite breakfasts in bed, so I really don't think she has mistreated this guy.

 

This would be odd and uncomfortable to me.  I can't imagine my mother serving DH and me breakfast in bed.  Nor could I have imagined my MIL serving me breakfast in bed with DH.  I would have either felt like my privacy was being invaded or that I was being checked up on.  

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Tap, I kind of hope you aren't reading this anymore. But if you are I just wanted to offer you hugs.

Can't like this enough. Winterbaby, you're really missing some stuff here or have a broken compassion button if you think this isn't an impossible situation. And the fact that the poor woman just wants to have a birthday without dealing with her daughter's jerk boyfriend, who detests Tap but hangs around like a bad odor, should speak to some of the desperation and exhaustion this whole situation brings.

 

This is one of those things where you just have to hug someone and shut your trap. Because there is no good answer. And nobody has endless reserves to put up with crap, birthday or no.

Edited by Arctic Mama
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Well, I'm super sorry you are going though this. SO sorry. I'd be totally sad. I hope the relationship ends quickly, before kids and marriage, and with as little pain as possible for your daughter. 

 

That said . . . there is the tragic possibility that your daughter will actually marry this idiot and have your grandkids with him.

 

So, if I were you, I'd suck it up, be crazy sweet and nice to this asshat, and have a miserable birthday. I'd do all in my power to make yourself blameless and likable. And I'd suffer. Honestly, I'd probably be seeing a therapist by now in your shoes, and I'd get lots of guidance on how to handle this creep.

 

And, I'd put lots of energy into hoping that this asshat drops off the face of the earth ASAP. (((Hugs)))

 

 

 

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This would be odd and uncomfortable to me. I can't imagine my mother serving DH and me breakfast in bed. Nor could I have imagined my MIL serving me breakfast in bed with DH. I would have either felt like my privacy was being invaded or that I was being checked up on.

I was thinking the same thing when I saw people posting it as a positive thing and a way that shows OP likes the bf. If that had happened to me I'd likely feel very uncomfortable. I'd feel like my personal space was being invaded and would need to set boundaries with that person.

 

But the bf loses me entirely when he asks her not to talk to him, even though he keeps coming over her house. Normal adults do not act that way.

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I was thinking the same thing when I saw people posting it as a positive thing and a way that shows OP likes the bf. If that had happened to me I'd likely feel very uncomfortable. I'd feel like my personal space was being invaded and would need to set boundaries with that person.

 

But the bf loses me entirely when he asks her not to talk to him, even though he keeps coming over her house. Normal adults do not act that way.

Is that an exact quote though? Because I have a parent that would say, "He told me not to talk to him," when the actual statement from that person was something like, "I don't think we have anything left to talk about," to end a disagreement.

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Is that an exact quote though? Because I have a parent that would say, "He told me not to talk to him," when the actual statement from that person was something like, "I don't think we have anything left to talk about," to end a disagreement.

I will take the OP at her word.

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Is that an exact quote though? Because I have a parent that would say, "He told me not to talk to him," when the actual statement from that person was something like, "I don't think we have anything left to talk about," to end a disagreement.

 

Either way, he also said Tap was not to talk *about* him. Short of court orders, we don't get to police what people say to that extent.

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Only thing I can come up with is to tell her "it is clear he does not want to be here, I hope you are not pushing him to come."

 

My sister's husband was like this. He had nothing to take issue with, so he never said anything. But he would sit in the living room, in the dark, and wait for about 30 minutes to an hour and then come out and say he was going to get going. It was so weird. It was awkward. 

 

 

Also, here is one thing I have learned about mean people. They have to have someone to lash out at. IF you remove yourself from where you can be the focus of their anger, they will have to find someone else to be angry at. This is actually what happened with my siblings. I removed myself from their circus a few years ago. Now that my mom died, I found out that for at least a year now, if not longer, they have been going at each other so bad that the police had to get involved twice. They are both now trying to get me to side with them and help against the other. I thought about getting involved (I got copies of the police reports so I would really know what I am dealing with) but then decided to take a step back because I know what they are and I know they just need an enemy to focus on and as soon as I get involved, they will both get back together and gang up on me. The same concept should work on your daughter. If you refuse to be involved and the object of her boyfriend's hate, then she will have to deal with him hating on someone else. Invite her over less. Be busy a lot. I know it sucks to not see her much, but not being any sort of topic of their conversations will help. Once he can no longer complain about you, he will have to complain about someone else. And perhaps then, your daughter will see him for what he is.

 

Edited by Janeway
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This would be odd and uncomfortable to me.  I can't imagine my mother serving DH and me breakfast in bed.  Nor could I have imagined my MIL serving me breakfast in bed with DH.  I would have either felt like my privacy was being invaded or that I was being checked up on.  

 

I have to admit - I can't imagine serving my dd and dsil breakfast in bed - even if they'd been at my house in a "real" guest room.  (all my bedrooms are full).   I can' t imagine dh (more likely than me) doing it either.   make it, and they come to the table . . yes. the only times it's ever been brought to me I was too ill/injured to come to the table.

but we never do the cliched mother's day "breakfast in bed" either.

 

some families, bib is more of a "thing".   so, how common is bib in her family?  is that a normal thing?  or the bf's family?

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Against my better judgment I am jumping on the breakfast in bed bandwagon.   I can only assume that the OP has done it because it seemed like a desirable and nice thing to do.  I know that her daughter has an illness that effects energy and ability to do things sometimes (most of the time?).  So perhaps breakfast in bed is a nice luxury but maybe even sometimes almost a necessity.  Maybe her daughter has said she and the boyfriend liked it, etc.  The fact that OP has used it as an example of being nice to the boyfriend indicates that she perceived it as something good to do.  

 

It doesn't really matter how any of us would feel about being served breakfast in bed by our parents, or serving a bf/gf in our house.  

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Against my better judgment I am jumping on the breakfast in bed bandwagon.   I can only assume that the OP has done it because it seemed like a desirable and nice thing to do.  I know that her daughter has an illness that effects energy and ability to do things sometimes (most of the time?).  So perhaps breakfast in bed is a nice luxury but maybe even sometimes almost a necessity.  Maybe her daughter has said she and the boyfriend liked it, etc.  The fact that OP has used it as an example of being nice to the boyfriend indicates that she perceived it as something good to do.  

 

It doesn't really matter how any of us would feel about being served breakfast in bed by our parents, or serving a bf/gf in our house.  

 

if it's a normal thing in her family - it's a normal thing in her family.

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This would be odd and uncomfortable to me.  I can't imagine my mother serving DH and me breakfast in bed.  Nor could I have imagined my MIL serving me breakfast in bed with DH.  I would have either felt like my privacy was being invaded or that I was being checked up on.

 

  

I was thinking the same thing when I saw people posting it as a positive thing and a way that shows OP likes the bf. If that had happened to me I'd likely feel very uncomfortable. I'd feel like my personal space was being invaded and would need to set boundaries with that person.

But the bf loses me entirely when he asks her not to talk to him, even though he keeps coming over her house. Normal adults do not act that way.

As I recall the story, the dd and the boyfriend liked it that Tap was fussing over them and serving them special breakfasts. It was seen as a positive thing and not some sort of invasion of privacy. My point was that Tap has gone out of her way on many, many occasions to try to make the boyfriend feel welcome and special.

 

And honestly, if your mom had already allowed your boyfriend to sleep over in your bedroom, I think the next morning would be a little late to be "checking up" on the two of you. ;)

 

The feeling I get about the boyfriend is that he reads negative intent into every little passing comment, even when Tap is saying something nice. It's like if you thought a co-worker's new haircut looked great on her and you complimented her on how nice it looked, but she got offended because you obviously must have meant that her hair always looked awful before now. Well, no, that's not how you meant it, but she's all upset and angry anyway.

 

I think the boyfriend is that kind of person, and it's exhausting to be around people like that. And it sounds like this boyfriend even gets upset when he thinks a general comment is an insult toward him, even when it's something that isn't about him at all. It's like he's always looking for something to be offended about, and he personalizes every little thing.

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The feeling I get about the boyfriend is that he reads negative intent into every little passing comment, even when Tap is saying something nice.

 

I think the boyfriend is that kind of person, and it's exhausting to be around people like that. And it sounds like this boyfriend even gets upset when he thinks a general comment is an insult toward him, even when it's something that isn't about him at all. It's like he's always looking for something to be offended about, and he personalizes every little thing.

 

someone else brought up the possibility he comes from a passive-aggressive family, where you must read between the lines just to survive.  which can lead to paranoia.

 

I came from this, my grandmother was a nasty pow,  (if you love me you will read my mind. very much say one thing to someone's face, then be a snotty witch about them the moment someone's back was turned.)    and it was a real struggle to learn to take people at face value.  some were easier than others, and I'm grateful I've gotten to know some truly wonderful people.  it got fun to "take grandmother at face value".  she had to eat her words. i you want something,, give a straight answer.  dont' expect me to ask you a dozen times to prove my sincerity.

 

however, - if his family did play mind games that would leave him paranoid and not trusting people.   when you do NOT trust someone - you tend to hold things much closer to your chest.  you don't' go around telling them to their face to not talk to you, or about you etc., let alone telling her to her face she doesn't like him.

 

I do think it would be good for the daughter to get a better look at who this guy is - before she marries him, let alone has a child with him.   how to get her to see him through new eyes, I don't know.

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Tap's daughter has not been kicked out of her parents' house. She can return if she wants too. Why don't you understand that?

Because Tap herself has said in multiple thread that she agrees her daughter would be miserable if she came back and doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t blame her for wanting out.

 

It doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t matter why or how screwed Tap is between a rock and hard place to her young daughter who is tying to make do on her own and doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t think coming home is a a genuine option due to her sister with RAD. That sucks. Totally sucks.

 

But the bottom line for me here is simple.

 

Her dd canĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t come home. The notion that exchanging the BF her family doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t like for sibling abuse is a viable option seems disingenuous to me.

 

So her dd is living with this guy and his family and they are for the most part providing a stable safe home for her where she feels safe and able to function.

 

Tap can either suck it up and adore the guy like a long lost son and maybe have some relationship healing over time with her daughter and possibly him too, or she can decide not to do that and lose both.

 

It sounds to me like her daughter is slowly making the decision to cut ties or at least distance herself from an abusive family dynamic where she feels her needs will never be a consideration or where she is no longer willing to be involved in a family that requires her to put up with her sisterĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s abuse. I suspect she might be insisting on bringing BF as a buffer and a safe out. And yeah, that puts him in the position of seeming like an ahole and of not really liking the family that makes his gf feel this way.

 

This isnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t fair but itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s also not unreasonable of her. And as a mother, it would break my heart. But if Tab canĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t change the situation at home, then I do not think it is actually true that her daughter can come back. And whether it is fair or not, I think itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s very normal for her daughter to feel a lot of deeper anger, resentment, hurt and rejection about that than she may ever be willing to show her mother. But it wouldnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t surprise me if her BF does know and it affects how he views her FOO. ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s also possible that he thinks sheĂ¢â‚¬â„¢d be healthier emotionally if she just didnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t deal with her FOO and thus it makes him a party pooper to be around bc he doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t want to be there but doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t want to leave her hanging without his support either. Again. I know thatĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s not fair but if thatĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s the case, itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s not unreasonable either.

 

And yeah. That would better suited to the privledge of a husband in my household, but well they arenĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t married and Tap doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t seem bothered by them living together so acting like they are Ă¢â‚¬Å“justĂ¢â‚¬ bf/gf seems rather contrary.

 

If I were Tap, my only question would be what does dd want from me to strengthen our relationship? And then, if at all possible, IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢d do it. If she wants me to pretend everything is wonderful with BF, by God IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢ll make it my mission to deliver an Oscar worthy performance and she will never again hear one word or hint of disapproval from me about him.

 

This isnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t hating on Tap as a mother to point out there could be very valid issues from her dd affecting things. Parenting is just brutal hard and heartbreaking sometimes.

Edited by Murphy101
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Because Tap herself has said in multiple thread that she agrees her daughter would be miserable if she came back and doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t blame her for wanting out.

 

It doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t matter why or how screwed Tap is between a rock and hard place to her young daughter who is tying to make do on her own and doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t think coming home is a a genuine option due to her sister with RAD. That sucks. Totally sucks.

 

But the bottom line for me here is simple.

 

Her dd canĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t come home. The notion that exchanging the BF her family doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t like for sibling abuse is a viable option seems disingenuous to me.

 

So her dd is living with this guy and his family and they are for he most part providing a stable safe home for her where she feels safe and able to function.

 

Tap can either suck it up and adore the guy like a long lost son and maybe have some relationship healing over time with her daughter and possibly him too, or she can decide not to do that and lose both.

 

It sounds to me like her daughter is slowly making the decision to cut ties or at least distance herself from an abusive family dynamic where she feels her needs will never be a consideration or where she is no longer willing to be involved in a family that requires her to put up with her sisterĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s abuse. I suspect she might be insisting on bringing BF as a buffer and a safe out. And yeah, that puts him in the position of seeming like an ahole and of not really liking the family that makes his gf feel this way.

 

This isnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t fair but itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s also not unreasonable of her. And as a mother, it would break my heart. But if Tab canĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t change the situation at home, then I do not think it is actually true that her daughter can come back. And whether it is fair or not, I think itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s very normal for her daughter to feel a lot of deeper anger, resentment, hurt and rejection about that than she may ever be willing to show her mother. But it wouldnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t surprise me if her BF does know and it affects how he views her FOO. ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s also possible that he thinks sheĂ¢â‚¬â„¢d be healthier emotionally if she just didnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t deal with her FOO and thus it makes him a party pooper to be around bc he doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t want to be there but doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t want to leave her hanging without his support either. Again. I know thats not fair but if hats the case, itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s not unreasonable either.

 

And yeah. That would better suited to the privledge of a husband in my household, but well they arenĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t married and Tap doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t seem bothered by them living together so acting like they are Ă¢â‚¬Å“justĂ¢â‚¬ bf/gf seems rather contrary.

 

If I were Tap, my only question would be what does dd want from me to strengthen our relationship? And then, if at all possible, IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢d do it. If she wants me to pretend everything is wonderful with BF, by God IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢ll make it my mission to deliver an Oscar worthy performance and she will never again hear one word or hint of disapproval from me about him.

 

This isnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t hating on Tap as a mother to point out there could be very valid issues from her dd affecting things. Parenting is just brutal hard and heartbreaking sometimes.

Tap has repeatedly told us that she and her dd are very close and that they still do a lot of things together. As I understand it, the dd does still spend time in the family home, although she spends most nights at the boyfriend's house.

 

I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that Tap's dd is trying to distance herself from her mom. Tap has never said anything like that, and it doesn't seem to be something she's worried about right now. It's obvious that she doesn't want to hurt her dd's feelings and that she has been trying not to put her dd in the middle of the shaky relationship she has with the dd's boyfriend, but I think that's because she's trying to let her dd make her own decisions about the boyfriend.

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Tap has repeatedly told us that she and her dd are very close and that they still do a lot of things together. As I understand it, the dd does still spend time in the family home, although she spends most nights at the boyfriend's house.

 

I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that Tap's dd is trying to distance herself from her mom. Tap has never said anything like that, and it doesn't seem to be something she's worried about right now. It's obvious that she doesn't want to hurt her dd's feelings and that she has been trying not to put her dd in the middle of the shaky relationship she has with the dd's boyfriend, but I think that's because she's trying to let her dd make her own decisions about the boyfriend.

Alrighty. I'm thrilled to have misread the situation. But if this is the case, I'm just not sure what the big deal problem is then.

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Have they been together for several years? In one of your posts from a few years ago, which I saw while searching for the previous posts others were referring to, your DDĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s boyfriend sounded like a completely different person and was someone you got along well with. IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m just wondering if that was a different BF and if not, what happened to change his behavior and his relationship with you so dramatically.

 

This whole thing is very sad, and I hope you can have a pleasant celebration dinner no matter who attends.

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