Need some perspective....excluding boyfriends/spouses at family events

[Catwoman]

Well I don't know what those issues are but if OP and family can't make providing an alternative to the problematic boyfriend a priority, I don't see how she gets to complain about him being problematic. But then I don't subscribe to the common view on this forum that 18 is a full-fledged adult to whom parents have zero obligations. Assuming he is about the same age all the talk about "this man" is a bit laughable. Becoming the new instant home for a girlfriend who has nowhere else to go would be a lot for even the nicest guy that age to take on and is bound to lead to some issues.

I don't think you understand this situation. What you're saying would make perfect sense if Tap didn't have a younger dd with RAD, whose behavior is apparently a big reason why the older dd is mostly living with the boyfriend. But Tap can't exactly throw her younger child out on the street, so she has to do the best she can. She has acknowledged how much she appreciates the help her dd has received from the boyfriend and his family, and she has done so very much to try to develop a good relationship with the boyfriend and to help him feel comfortable in her home, but it seems as though he continues to reject all of her attempts.

 

I hate to see anyone judging Tap harshly, because I know from past threads just how incredibly hard she has tried to make everyone happy.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Catwoman

[Catwoman]

It's incredibly troubling that a teen with serious health problems may have to stay with a guy who's a problem because there's no place for her at home. Given that he's already the roof over her head, making her choose between him and you may seal the deal. What if she does see the light on him, what's she supposed to do then, start couch-surfing? I kind of can't believe you're worried about something like a birthday party while your daughter's young life is shaping up this way. I don't understand your decision not to have a place for your own child but I seriously hope you reconsider it.

 

ETA I agree with Callie it's also possible that this is a good/normal guy whose view of you has been colored by the situation of having to take her in.

Wow.

 

Harsh.

 

And completely inaccurate.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Catwoman

[marbel]

I don't think you understand this situation. What you're saying would make perfect sense if Tap didn't have a younger dd with RAD, whose behavior is apparently a big reason why the older dd is mostly living with the boyfriend. But Tap can't exactly throw her younger child out on the street, so she has to do the best she can. She has acknowledged how much she appreciates the help her dd has received from the boyfriend and his family, and she has done so very much to try to develop a good relationship with the boyfriend and to help him feel comfortable in her home, but it seems as though he continues to reject all of her attempts.

 

I hate to see anyone judging Tap harshly, because I know from past threads just how incredibly hard she has tried to make everyone happy.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you at all.  But just adding on, sort of...

 

Not everyone knows the whole story (I'm sure I don't, but I know a fair bit from posts over time) so a person going by any individual post is likely to find many of the responses perplexing.  If I try to read the OP in this thread as if I have no prior knowledge of the situation, I know I would be confused.   

 

I'm not suggesting that Tap or anyone else insert the entire history of a situation into every thread.  But, just understand that not everyone who reads a post is going to know the whole story.

[Catwoman]

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. But just adding on, sort of...

 

Not everyone knows the whole story (I'm sure I don't, but I know a fair bit from posts over time) so a person going by any individual post is likely to find many of the responses perplexing. If I try to read the OP in this thread as if I have no prior knowledge of the situation, I know I would be confused.

 

I'm not suggesting that Tap or anyone else insert the entire history of a situation into every thread. But, just understand that not everyone who reads a post is going to know the whole story.

I agree with you. :)

 

I did mention in an earlier post that there was a long history here, and that I understood why someone reading only this thread with no knowledge of Tap's past threads might interpret this thread differently than many of us who are more familiar with the situation, but I should have mentioned that again in my posts to winterbaby.

 

(Edited because I can't type.)

Edited September 28, 2017 by Catwoman

[winterbaby]

I don't think you understand this situation. What you're saying would make perfect sense if Tap didn't have a younger dd with RAD, whose behavior is apparently a big reason why the older dd is mostly living with the boyfriend. But Tap can't exactly throw her younger child out on the street, so she has to do the best she can. She has acknowledged how much she appreciates the help her dd has received from the boyfriend and his family, and she has done so very much to try to develop a good relationship with the boyfriend and to help him feel comfortable in her home, but it seems as though he continues to reject all of her attempts.

 

I hate to see anyone judging Tap harshly, because I know from past threads just how incredibly hard she has tried to make everyone happy.

 

It works out the same, though, no matter how good the reason why she can't provide an alternative to this guy supposedly is. If he's what's standing between OP's daughter and the street/couch-surfing/????, there's no point in being anything but endlessly gracious and accommodating to him. If he's not good enough that should have been considered earlier. At this point OP should be proactive in finding her DD a third option before trying to alienate the provider of the roof over her head.

 

[hjffkj]

With all the added backstory I would honestly just deal with him at my bday dinner because ruffling feathers with him isn't worth my dd possibly having to decide between her family of origin and a safe enough place to live.

 

If having a nice bday dinner were that important to me I'd have 2. One with dd and her bf and one without

[Sandwalker]

I know it's complicated and you have reasons for submitting. But you are being abused by your daughter's boyfriend. You don't deserve that, Tap. No woman deserves to be abused.

This. And i worry about the daughter, too.

[Catwoman]

It works out the same, though, no matter how good the reason why she can't provide an alternative to this guy supposedly is. If he's what's standing between OP's daughter and the street/couch-surfing/????, there's no point in being anything but endlessly gracious and accommodating to him. If he's not good enough that should have been considered earlier. At this point OP should be proactive in finding her DD a third option before trying to alienate the provider of the roof over her head.

 

You're making it sound as though Tap kicked her dd out of the house. That was not the case at all. Tap has always said that her dd is welcome to live at home. Her dd prefers to stay with the boyfriend. Tap has also been very accommodating to the boyfriend when he and her dd were living part of the time at Tap's house and the rest of the time at the boyfriend's parents' house.

[solascriptura]

I’m so perplexed as to why your dd keeps bringing him to your home. I suppose that she is trying to heal your relationship with her boyfriend? I think that if I was in your position I would be honest with her.

 

“Your bf made it pretty clear that he hates me and can’t stand to be in my presence. Why would he want to come to my dinner? Are you forcing him? It didn’t seem like the apology I gave that time was enough for him. You probably shouldn’t force the issue until he’s ready to work on the relationship.â€

 

I really hope, for everyone’s sake, that this bf doesn’t last forever. Wow! I would be pretty upset if my dd brought home a guy like that.

[winterbaby]

You're making it sound as though Tap kicked her dd out of the house. That was not the case at all. Tap has always said that her dd is welcome to live at home. Her dd prefers to stay with the boyfriend. Tap has also been very accommodating to the boyfriend when he and her dd were living part of the time at Tap's house and the rest of the time at the boyfriend's parents' house.

 

My understanding is that OP's DD is seriously ill and the other child's behaviors create an environment that aggravates her condition. It's hard to understand what the series of decisions might have been that would lead everyone to conclude that a dating partner and his parents were an ill teen's best option for where to stay, but in any case as of right now this boy is the roof over her head and I think if this DD is actually a priority at all, decisions about how to interact with him should weigh that factor heavily. It's simply too late to decide he's not good enough, unless alternatives are put in place. I don't think any woman should ever have to stay with a partner out of financial or logistical necessity, and that goes doubly for an eighteen year old girl. Whenever someone we know and care about - never mind one's own young daughter - is in such a situation, one should at the very least refrain from creating draconian "us or him" dilemmas or feeding into interpersonal drama with the problematic partner. And preferably, be proactive in helping the woman find alternatives. To not do this for a teen daughter boggles me and is coloring my perception of the backstory. Sorry, can't pretend this is normal.

Edited September 28, 2017 by winterbaby

[Lang Syne Boardie]

winterbaby, nobody thinks it's normal. Tap doesn't think it's normal. Neither of her daughters think it's normal. Other wtm'ers don't think it's normal. The difference between us and you is this:

 

Most women, after being on the planet a few decades, figure out that "normal" isn't handed out equally to all people. There's not enough pie. We don't all get normal.

 

So we ask for help with the abnormal, to keep going one more day...that's what Tap is doing.

 

And if we're a friend of a woman whose situation is not normal, we help her tease out the strands and make a plan, with as little judgment as possible. That's what the other wtm'ers are doing.

 

 

[goldberry]

that is a hard one.  If I recall, he was completely unreasonable and tends to easily take offense.  and your dd sticks with him. . .

 

 

on one hand, this near term event will be more pleasant without him. (boy do I get that.. . . . ),

othoh . . .. what if she has kids with him?  excluding him now, could make things far worse down the road.

this guy, for me, sent up flags that is you would try to exclude him, he'd start trying to prevent your dd from going to your family gatherings. . . and snowballing into something even worse.

 

This is the situation with my friends DD.  The DD and her BF have a child together and live with BF's parents.  My friend excluded the BF many a time because of this behavior. Eventually DD stopped attending anything.  After the baby was born, my friend and her DH had a family meeting.  They all hated BF, but did they still want a relationship with their sister and what were they willing to put up with to get it?

 

They reached the conclusion that they would invite him, and ignore him when he was being a jerk/difficult unless he was verbally abusing anyone including DD.  Then my friend's husband told him very directly that they would put up with many things for the sake of seeing DD, but not that.  BF got in line.  He's still a jerk/difficult though.

 

I will say though, going into someone's house but saying don't talk to me?  No. I wouldn't put up with that one.  That's abuse to Tap in her own home.

Edited September 28, 2017 by goldberry

[Lang Syne Boardie]

My understanding is that OP's DD is seriously ill and the other child's behaviors create an environment that aggravates her condition. It's hard to understand what the series of decisions might have been that would lead everyone to conclude that a dating partner and his parents were an ill teen's best option for where to stay, but in any case as of right now this boy is the roof over her head and I think if this DD is actually a priority at all, decisions about how to interact with him should weigh that factor heavily. It's simply too late to decide he's not good enough, unless alternatives are put in place. I don't think any woman should ever have to stay with a partner out of financial or logistical necessity, and that goes doubly for an eighteen year old girl. Whenever someone we know and care about - never mind one's own young daughter - is in such a situation, one should at the very least refrain from creating draconian "us or him" dilemmas or feeding into interpersonal drama with the problematic partner. And preferably, be proactive in helping the woman find alternatives. To not do this for a teen daughter boggles me and is coloring my perception of the backstory. Sorry, can't pretend this is normal.

 

I meant to quote this because YE GODS. "If this dd is actually a priority at all??" 

[winterbaby]

OP is not "the woman whose situation is not normal." Her daughter is.

[ErinE]

I meant to quote this because YE GODS. "If this dd is actually a priority at all??"

I liked your post because I share your shock. If you don't know Tap's background, please go back and read her posts before making insensitive comments.

Edited September 28, 2017 by ErinE

[Lang Syne Boardie]

OP is not "the woman whose situation is not normal." Her daughter is.

1. Wrong. Tap is in a not normal and difficult situation.

 

2. If her dd joins the forums, we can talk to her...

[Catwoman]

OP is not "the woman whose situation is not normal." Her daughter is.

Well, I don't think most of us would consider Tap's life to be "normal" either, knowing what we do about her situation with her younger dd.

 

She's not sitting around the house all day, watching HGTV and relaxing. Her life is HARD.

[goldberry]

OP is not "the woman whose situation is not normal." Her daughter is.

 

As is her other daughter.  The daughter in reference is not the only one involved, or the only priority.  Tap is having to balance competing issues of not-normalcy.

Edited September 28, 2017 by goldberry

[heartlikealion]

I feel like directly talking to him hasn't gotten Tap anywhere so what about a third party? For example, the time she went out to the car to talk to him. Maybe send someone else out to the car to encourage him to come inside. Maybe her dd could say, "Mom wants to speak to you. How do you feel about coming inside?" or when she went home that day pass on a message to him on the ride home? "Mom said such n such and don't forget you're welcome to come inside" or whatever. I don't know. I just feel like sometimes it's easier to get a middle man. I know I have a lot of issues with talking to my MIL directly and dh would always tell me to talk to her and then well, it got ugly a couple times. But you can't always win so YMMV.

[winterbaby]

My questioning of priorities has to do with the picture being painted of what a mean, horrible, manipulative, abusive person, this guy is  - it's even observed that the daughter's behavior is becoming more subdued around him, he really puts a chill on things... and the most pressing concern about the fact that the guy their daughter depends on for a place to live is acting this way is how it affects mom's birthday party.

[Catwoman]

My understanding is that OP's DD is seriously ill and the other child's behaviors create an environment that aggravates her condition. It's hard to understand what the series of decisions might have been that would lead everyone to conclude that a dating partner and his parents were an ill teen's best option for where to stay, but in any case as of right now this boy is the roof over her head and I think if this DD is actually a priority at all, decisions about how to interact with him should weigh that factor heavily. It's simply too late to decide he's not good enough, unless alternatives are put in place. I don't think any woman should ever have to stay with a partner out of financial or logistical necessity, and that goes doubly for an eighteen year old girl. Whenever someone we know and care about - never mind one's own young daughter - is in such a situation, one should at the very least refrain from creating draconian "us or him" dilemmas or feeding into interpersonal drama with the problematic partner. And preferably, be proactive in helping the woman find alternatives. To not do this for a teen daughter boggles me and is coloring my perception of the backstory. Sorry, can't pretend this is normal.

Have you read Tap's past threads about her dd and this boyfriend? Are you at all aware of how Tap has bent over backward time and time again to try to accommodate the boyfriend? Do you have any idea of how involved Tap is with her dd's medical situation?

 

You're trying to characterize her as an uncaring, unconcerned mother and you are absolutely wrong.

 

You really should ask more questions or read more threads before you get so judgmental.

 

I know you mean well and that you are concerned about Tap's dd. I can see that, and I think it's admirable. But I don't think you understand the whole backstory here, or you wouldn't be attacking Tap like this.

[winterbaby]

I feel like directly talking to him hasn't gotten Tap anywhere so what about a third party? For example, the time she went out to the car to talk to him. Maybe send someone else out to the car to encourage him to come inside. Maybe her dd could say, "Mom wants to speak to you. How do you feel about coming inside?" or when she went home that day pass on a message to him on the ride home? "Mom said such n such and don't forget you're welcome to come inside" or whatever. I don't know. I just feel like sometimes it's easier to get a middle man. I know I have a lot of issues with talking to my MIL directly and dh would always tell me to talk to her and then well, it got ugly a couple times. But you can't always win so YMMV.

 

If there's anything at all to the suggestion that this is not a good guy, please don't put the DD in that position.

[Catwoman]

My questioning of priorities has to do with the picture being painted of what a mean, horrible, manipulative, abusive person, this guy is - it's even observed that the daughter's behavior is becoming more subdued around him, he really puts a chill on things... and the most pressing concern about the fact that the guy their daughter depends on for a place to live is acting this way is how it affects mom's birthday party.

You are so incredibly mistaken about this that I don't even know where to begin.

 

The birthday party is such a tiny part of all of this.

 

And honestly, Tap has so much stress and worry every single day that I would never begrudge her one nice family day to celebrate her birthday. Is that really too much for her to wish for?

[heartlikealion]

If there's anything at all to the suggestion that this is not a good guy, please don't put the DD in that position.

 

Dd doesn't have to the middle man but she's kind of making herself one if she keeps bringing him with her. Maybe someone can clarify as I'm still uncertain... is he her only mode of transportation? If not, then maybe he should stay home and not sit in the driveway/street/whatever.

 

I don't honestly know enough about the guy to determine if he's a good or bad guy. I'm trying to give parties some benefit of the doubt. Like if he's really uncomfortable around Tap then it makes sense he would sit in the car. But if he was urged to come inside it might make him feel welcome if he currently does not. If Tap makes the bday invitation for just family and he insists on coming that's a red flag to me, unless Tap's dd is twisting his arm to tag along all the time and we're just not privy to that. We just don't know.

 

I agree that it could be a disaster making her middle man, but then maybe she needs to get out of that role. If it was my dd I might just ask her to the side (not in a text she'll show to him later) if this guy has any other interests/friends and is she interested/available for a girls' night. I feel like some space from him could be good. The "girly stuff" mentioned in another post got me thinking. And it doesn't have to be reserved for the bday celebration. It could just be a random night.

[heartlikealion]

And I realize the guy made things uncomfortable by blurting out things like, "don't talk to me" or whatever her said. Does her dd even know that happened?? I couldn't imagine insisting on bringing someone over to a family meal that said that to my mom!

[Catwoman]

And I realize the guy made things uncomfortable by blurting out things like, "don't talk to me" or whatever her said. Does her dd even know that happened?? I couldn't imagine insisting on bringing someone over to a family meal that said that to my mom!

I know! I keep wondering what part the dd is playing in all of this, and how she feels about the whole situation.

[winterbaby]

I've read threads. I've also been the kid who "couldn't" stay at home because reasons, no one's fault really, just the way things are... and got a boatload of trouble as a result. As a result I weigh such reasons lightly, and there's very little chance that any amount of elaboration of reasons from the parents' point of view could ever change that. No amount of "good reasons" from the parents' point of view will magically make not being able to come home the best thing for the child. And yes I would "begrudge" (meaning say, hey there are bigger fish to fry right now) a party to someone who suspects their teen child is with an awful, abusive person and has nowhere else to go.

[Rosie_0801]

I've read threads. I've also been the kid who "couldn't" stay at home because reasons, no one's fault really, just the way things are... and got a boatload of trouble as a result. As a result I weigh such reasons lightly, and there's very little chance that any amount of elaboration of reasons from the parents' point of view could ever change that. No amount of "good reasons" from the parents' point of view will magically make not being able to come home the best thing for the child. And yes I would "begrudge" (meaning say, hey there are bigger fish to fry right now) a party to someone who suspects their teen child is with an awful, abusive person and has nowhere else to go.

 

You know, no one feels good about lives where "stiff petunias," "tough luck," and "sucks to be you" are the only options to choose from.

 

Bad things happen to good people. That's life. Tap doesn't have the power to make everything swell for everyone she cares for, and that's not because she's not a good enough girl, it's because she's not an all powerful deity.

[Corraleno]

I've read threads. I've also been the kid who "couldn't" stay at home because reasons, no one's fault really, just the way things are... and got a boatload of trouble as a result. As a result I weigh such reasons lightly, and there's very little chance that any amount of elaboration of reasons from the parents' point of view could ever change that. No amount of "good reasons" from the parents' point of view will magically make not being able to come home the best thing for the child. And yes I would "begrudge" (meaning say, hey there are bigger fish to fry right now) a party to someone who suspects their teen child is with an awful, abusive person and has nowhere else to go.

 

So how do you propose to solve the problem? Should she kick the younger child out? Put her in an institution?

 

Why don't you go adopt a child with severe RAD, who makes your life a living hell every. single. day, and then come back here in a few years so we can tell you what a selfish person and crap mother you are?

 

Honestly, your responses on this thread are so out of line you might as well be kicking puppies. 

[winterbaby]

You know, no one feels good about lives where "stiff petunias," "tough luck," and "sucks to be you" are the only options to choose from.

 

Bad things happen to good people. That's life. Tap doesn't have the power to make everything swell for everyone she cares for, and that's not because she's not a good enough girl, it's because she's not an all powerful deity.

 

I don't think it takes an all-powerful deity to understand that the fact that her daughter is with a troubling guy is a bigger problem for the daughter than for anyone else.

 

[Catwoman]

You know, no one feels good about lives where "stiff petunias," "tough luck," and "sucks to be you" are the only options to choose from.

 

Bad things happen to good people. That's life. Tap doesn't have the power to make everything swell for everyone she cares for, and that's not because she's not a good enough girl, it's because she's not an all powerful deity.

Well said, Rosie.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't think it takes an all-powerful deity to understand that the fact that her daughter is with a troubling guy is a bigger problem for the daughter than for anyone else.

It would take an all powerful deity to understand why you think you're the only one. Just shaking my head over here, realizing there's nothing anyone can say to you so we might as well stop.

 

Tap, please note your many friends of a long time back, and feel free to include any or all of us in a private group message next time, if that feels safer.

[Rosie_0801]

I don't think it takes an all-powerful deity to understand that the fact that her daughter is with a troubling guy is a bigger problem for the daughter than for anyone else.

 

Reread Correleno's post.

 

 

Otherwise, you're right. It doesn't take an all-powerful deity to understand that Tap's dd being with a troubling guy is a bigger problem for the daughter than anyone else. You are not the only one noticing that this is not a good thing. However, there's nothing Tap can do about it. She can't make the guy be great. She can't make her youngest dd's RAD disappear. She can't make her older dd's health problems disappear. 

 

She shouldn't have to be a victim of domestic violence from her dd's boyfriend either, and there's nothing she can do about that without cutting off her daughter. You can tell her to make good choices as much as you like, but she can't because there aren't any. Victim blaming never makes anyone say "Oh, you are so right. I just shouldn't allow these bad things! I never thought of that before!"

[nixpix5]

I've read threads. I've also been the kid who "couldn't" stay at home because reasons, no one's fault really, just the way things are... and got a boatload of trouble as a result. As a result I weigh such reasons lightly, and there's very little chance that any amount of elaboration of reasons from the parents' point of view could ever change that. No amount of "good reasons" from the parents' point of view will magically make not being able to come home the best thing for the child. And yes I would "begrudge" (meaning say, hey there are bigger fish to fry right now) a party to someone who suspects their teen child is with an awful, abusive person and has nowhere else to go.

It sounds like you are carrying some past hurts that color your way of looking at other's situations.

 

Tap is stuck between a rock and a hard place. She has a younger daughter with RAD that she cannot, legally, kick out on the street nor could I see her doing that. Older DD is making a choice to not be at home because of this DD it seems. I have never gathered from other threads that her BF is abusive. What he seems is immature and overly sensitive to everything. Tap has bent over backwards to deal with him and been far more gracious then I would have been. This is a hard situation and from what I have read Tap is one heck of a good mom. I feel exhausted for her when I picture the ways in which she cares for kids with high needs in the day to day.

 

If you haven't had to deal with RAD then you have no idea what that is like. In all of my years of counseling the hardest cases I hsve ever dealt with were kids with RAD. They implode families and Tap is doing it every day.

 

This is a fellow mom and we should be warrior moms united. This job is tough and being transparent online to get help can feel vulnerable. We shouldn't tear each other down.

Edited September 28, 2017 by nixpix5

[MinivanMom]

Dd doesn't have to the middle man but she's kind of making herself one if she keeps bringing him with her. Maybe someone can clarify as I'm still uncertain... is he her only mode of transportation? If not, then maybe he should stay home and not sit in the driveway/street/whatever.

 

I don't honestly know enough about the guy to determine if he's a good or bad guy. I'm trying to give parties some benefit of the doubt. Like if he's really uncomfortable around Tap then it makes sense he would sit in the car. But if he was urged to come inside it might make him feel welcome if he currently does not. If Tap makes the bday invitation for just family and he insists on coming that's a red flag to me, unless Tap's dd is twisting his arm to tag along all the time and we're just not privy to that. We just don't know.

 

I agree that it could be a disaster making her middle man, but then maybe she needs to get out of that role. If it was my dd I might just ask her to the side (not in a text she'll show to him later) if this guy has any other interests/friends and is she interested/available for a girls' night. I feel like some space from him could be good. The "girly stuff" mentioned in another post got me thinking. And it doesn't have to be reserved for the bday celebration. It could just be a random night.

 

Okay, I had in-laws who did not like me. They still don't like me. And when we were dating, I remember a birthday party for dh's father where dh (then boyfriend) said, "Hey, this is a chance for me to connect with my siblings so I know my parents invited you, but I'd rather you didn't come." And that didn't bother me in the least, because obviously it was a gathering of dh's immediate family, and I was the girlfriend. Maybe I would have felt differently if we lived together; I don't know.

 

After we got married, dh would often visit his parents without me or go out to lunch with them without me, and, to be perfectly honest, I loved that because they aren't the easiest people to sit and chit-chat with. 

 

But for a birthday, dh would have flipped if I didn't come along. Partly because he wanted me as a buffer between him and his mom, who can be a bit much to take in any situation longer than a lunch, and partly because he had a strong sense that - as his wife - I ought to be included in all family birthdays and I had an obligation to attend all birthdays. And I know there were times that his parents said, "It's okay if Minivan Mom doesn't come, because we know she's so busy . . . " because really they didn't like me much and would have preferred I wasn't there. But I never missed a birthday, because it was very, very important to dh that I be there.

 

So I think there is a strong possibility that Tap's daughter is the one that wants him there, and that she is the one pressuring him to come. It's also possible that he's a controlling jerk who won't let the girlfriend go anywhere without him. Or he could be a perfectly nice (though over-sensitive) guy who feels very protective of his girlfriend, because of her fragile medical state and her difficult family situation. I think that's difficult to suss out from what Tap has shared. But I don't think coming to the birthday or being awkward at the birthday are red-flags in and of themselves. I don't even think the "don't talk to me" thing is necessarily a red-flag in the context of Tap being the one to confront him when he was avoiding her.

 

My big question would be: Does Tap's daughter feel free to get together with her family without him? Not in the context of him being excluded from a family party, but just in the day-to-day, "Hey, let's get together for lunch,"-type situation. If she can't come to lunch without boyfriend tagging along, that would be a bigger red-flag to me that the boyfriend may be more on the controlling side of things versus being an immature, overprotective boyfriend. KWIM?

[winterbaby]

 She can't make the guy be great. She can't make her youngest dd's RAD disappear. She can't make her older dd's health problems disappear. 

 

She shouldn't have to be a victim of domestic violence from her dd's boyfriend either, and there's nothing she can do about that without cutting off her daughter. You can tell her to make good choices as much as you like, but she can't because there aren't any. Victim blaming never makes anyone say "Oh, you are so right. I just shouldn't allow these bad things! I never thought of that before!"

 

There is one thing she can do, and that's to look at the question of him potentially being a nasty guy primarily in terms of her daughter's welfare rather than her own feelings. Help her come up with another place to live, if it can't be the family home. Barring that, at least talk to her about her concern about him in terms of the daughter's safety, do some education on the subject of red flags, and help make an emergency safety plan with the numbers of local women's resources etc. Accusing me of victim-blaming is a bit surreal in a thread full of insinuations about "where is the daughter in all this", talk of putting her up to confronting him, etc.

[Pen]

As long as you've not invited him so that you'd be uninviting him, I think it is fine to tell your dd that you would love to have her at your b'day dinner, but do not want her bf.  That if she does not want to come without him, that perhaps you and she can have a separate special time at another point. He's not a spouse, nor are they yet at the long term domestic partnership stage

[heartlikealion]

Okay, I had in-laws who did not like me. They still don't like me. And when we were dating, I remember a birthday party for dh's father where dh (then boyfriend) said, "Hey, this is a chance for me to connect with my siblings so I know my parents invited you, but I'd rather you didn't come." And that didn't bother me in the least, because obviously it was a gathering of dh's immediate family, and I was the girlfriend. Maybe I would have felt differently if we lived together; I don't know.

 

After we got married, dh would often visit his parents without me or go out to lunch with them without me, and, to be perfectly honest, I loved that because they aren't the easiest people to sit and chit-chat with. 

 

But for a birthday, dh would have flipped if I didn't come along. Partly because he wanted me as a buffer between him and his mom, who can be a bit much to take in any situation longer than a lunch, and partly because he had a strong sense that - as his wife - I ought to be included in all family birthdays and I had an obligation to attend all birthdays. And I know there were times that his parents said, "It's okay if Minivan Mom doesn't come, because we know she's so busy . . . " because really they didn't like me much and would have preferred I wasn't there. But I never missed a birthday, because it was very, very important to dh that I be there.

 

So I think there is a strong possibility that Tap's daughter is the one that wants him there, and that she is the one pressuring him to come. It's also possible that he's a controlling jerk who won't let the girlfriend go anywhere without him. Or he could be a perfectly nice (though over-sensitive) guy who feels very protective of his girlfriend, because of her fragile medical state and her difficult family situation. I think that's difficult to suss out from what Tap has shared. But I don't think coming to the birthday or being awkward at the birthday are red-flags in and of themselves. I don't even think the "don't talk to me" thing is necessarily a red-flag in the context of Tap being the one to confront him when he was avoiding her.

 

My big question would be: Does Tap's daughter feel free to get together with her family without him? Not in the context of him being excluded from a family party, but just in the day-to-day, "Hey, let's get together for lunch,"-type situation. If she can't come to lunch without boyfriend tagging along, that would be a bigger red-flag to me that the boyfriend may be more on the controlling side of things versus being an immature, overprotective boyfriend. KWIM?

 

Exactly. You said it better than me. I meant red flag more as inserting yourself where you are not invited. That just seems rude to me. As he is not married to her I don't consider him part of the family so if the invite goes out to family he should know he's not included. If he showed up I would ask my dd why he showed up (privately ask) and find out then if she invited him or he insisted. And even then I guess you might not get the truth. Depends on the people.

[Catwoman]

There is one thing she can do, and that's to look at the question of him potentially being a nasty guy primarily in terms of her daughter's welfare rather than her own feelings. Help her come up with another place to live, if it can't be the family home. Barring that, at least talk to her about her concern about him in terms of the daughter's safety, do some education on the subject of red flags, and help make an emergency safety plan with the numbers of local women's resources etc. Accusing me of victim-blaming is a bit surreal in a thread full of insinuations about "where is the daughter in all this", talk of putting her up to confronting him, etc.

In fairness to Tap, I don't think she believes the boyfriend is a danger to her dd. Some of us have seen red flags based on her posts, but to the best of my knowledge, Tap hasn't said she's worried about her dd's safety.

 

You keep stressing that Tap is more concerned about her own feelings than those of her dd, but that is simply not true. Tap has cared so much about her dd's feelings that she has continually gone out of her way to try to be friendly with the boyfriend, as well as to try her best not to put her daughter in the middle of her relationship issues with the boyfriend. She is doing everything she can to reduce her dd's stress and to try not to put her dd into an awkward position where she has to keep choosing between her family and her boyfriend.

 

I'm not sure why you seem so intent on blaming Tap and painting her as a bad mother. :confused:

[Bootsie]

The boyfriend has told Tap that he doesn't like being around her and that he intentionally avoids being near her. Tap has said that when he's with her family, his sullen behavior effects everyone. He has directly accused her of not liking him, and he doesn't believe her when she tells him that's not the case, and he is constantly perceiving innocent comments as being insults, to the point where Tap feels as though she has to walk on eggshells and analyze everything she says to him to try to ensure that she doesn't upset him or hurt his feelings.

 

Honestly, I think Tap is probably at a point where she doesn't know what to do. She wants to spend time with her dd, but the boyfriend seems to always inject himself into every possible situation, despite claiming he doesn't want to be around Tap. She doesn't complain about the boyfriend to her dd, because she doesn't want to cause trouble.

 

I think Tap is in a very difficult position.

From what I have read from the posts, I would have a difficult time arguing with him.  From the information provided, it sounds as if she does not like him and does not want him around.  She may very well have good reason for these feelings.  But if she doesn't want him to be at her house, doesn't want him at the dinner, doesn't like what he says to her, then I don't think it is fair to characterize him as "directly accusing her of not liking him, and not believing it when she tells him that's not the case."

 

I am having a difficult time seeing how he is constantly perceiving innocent comments some way and always injecting himself into every possible situation when he has been sitting out in the car in 100 degree weather and not coming into the house.  I am wondering if he is also in a difficult no-win situation.

[Crimson Wife]

There is one thing she can do, and that's to look at the question of him potentially being a nasty guy primarily in terms of her daughter's welfare rather than her own feelings. Help her come up with another place to live, if it can't be the family home. Barring that, at least talk to her about her concern about him in terms of the daughter's safety, do some education on the subject of red flags, and help make an emergency safety plan with the numbers of local women's resources etc. Accusing me of victim-blaming is a bit surreal in a thread full of insinuations about "where is the daughter in all this", talk of putting her up to confronting him, etc.

 

Saying this gently, but  I think you are reading more into this situation than has been stated. What makes you think that Tap's older daughter's physical safety is in jeopardy? :confused1:  All I'm seeing is that the BF has said some rude things. That might make him a jerk but most jerks don't ever wind up becoming violent towards anyone else.

 

I think that none of us are trained family therapists/counselors hearing both sides of the story so we should refrain from passing judgment and stick to encouraging Tap to seek out assistance from a qualified professional.

[Catwoman]

From what I have read from the posts, I would have a difficult time arguing with him. From the information provided, it sounds as if she does not like him and does not want him around. She may very well have good reason for these feelings. But if she doesn't want him to be at her house, doesn't want him at the dinner, doesn't like what he says to her, then I don't think it is fair to characterize him as "directly accusing her of not liking him, and not believing it when she tells him that's not the case."

 

I am having a difficult time seeing how he is constantly perceiving innocent comments some way and always injecting himself into every possible situation when he has been sitting out in the car in 100 degree weather and not coming into the house. I am wondering if he is also in a difficult no-win situation.

Well, I still remember when the boyfriend was spending at least half of his nights sleeping over at Tap's house and how she went so far as to serve them their favorite breakfasts in bed, so I really don't think she has mistreated this guy.

 

In past threads, Tap detailed some of the situations where the guy got offended, and I thought he was being ridiculous -- and I didn't know much about the situation back then and I was trying to see things through his eyes. It was such minor stuff -- I remember thinking he was both immature (he's only 19 now, so that's understandable to a point,) and that he seemed to be looking for reasons to feel like he was being picked on. It sounded like no one in the family could even make a general little joking remark without him taking it personally and getting upset about it,

 

I'm sure he sees himself as the victim here. I wish I knew where Tap's dd stood on all of this, but I don't think Tap has talked with her about it very much because she doesn't want to put her dd in an awkward position.

[gardenmom5]

Reread Correleno's post.

 

 

Otherwise, you're right. It doesn't take an all-powerful deity to understand that Tap's dd being with a troubling guy is a bigger problem for the daughter than anyone else. You are not the only one noticing that this is not a good thing. However, there's nothing Tap can do about it. She can't make the guy be great. She can't make her youngest dd's RAD disappear. She can't make her older dd's health problems disappear. 

 

She shouldn't have to be a victim of domestic violence from her dd's boyfriend either, and there's nothing she can do about that without cutting off her daughter. You can tell her to make good choices as much as you like, but she can't because there aren't any. Victim blaming never makes anyone say "Oh, you are so right. I just shouldn't allow these bad things! I never thought of that before!"

 

 

a couple other options I'd like to add to your list:  (and i'd like your posts if I could . . . )

 

she can't make the dd drop the bf.

she can't make the dd give the proverbial brick upside the boyfriend's head to get through his thick skull he needs to "grow up already!"

she can't make the bf grow up any faster.

 

from my own observations of being in a crap situation that was out of my control - and having people (who *really* should have known enough to keep their lips zipped)  imply it was my fault . . . . . I came to the conclusion -those who victim blame are afraid of bad things happening to themselves. because if it's the "victims" fault, they think they're safe.  (because they're so special.)

 

and if I recall correctly - the dd doesn't drive, and they don't have (at least not useful) public transportation in their town.  so that does make her somewhat dependent upon boyfriend for transportation.

[Bootsie]

Well, I still remember when the boyfriend was spending at least half of his nights sleeping over at Tap's house and how she went so far as to serve them their favorite breakfasts in bed, so I really don't think she has mistreated this guy.

 

In past threads, Tap detailed some of the situations where the guy got offended, and I thought he was being ridiculous -- and I didn't know much about the situation back then and I was trying to see things through his eyes. It was such minor stuff -- I remember thinking he was both immature (he's only 19 now, so that's understandable to a point,) and that he seemed to be looking for reasons to feel like he was being picked on. It sounded like no one in the family could even make a general little joking remark without him taking it personally and getting upset about it,

 

I'm sure he sees himself as the victim here. I wish I knew where Tap's dd stood on all of this, but I don't think Tap has talked with her about it very much because she doesn't want to put her dd in an awkward position.

It sounds as if you do not like the BF; it also sounds to me as if Tap does not like BF.   What I am perplexed by is his being criticized for direct accusations that Tap doesn't like him.  

[TechWife]

My questioning of priorities has to do with the picture being painted of what a mean, horrible, manipulative, abusive person, this guy is  - it's even observed that the daughter's behavior is becoming more subdued around him, he really puts a chill on things... and the most pressing concern about the fact that the guy their daughter depends on for a place to live is acting this way is how it affects mom's birthday party.

 

No one, including Tap, is acting like the birthday party is the most pressing concern. That is simply the scenario Tap asked for help with at this particular moment in time. 

 

I've read threads. I've also been the kid who "couldn't" stay at home because reasons, no one's fault really, just the way things are... and got a boatload of trouble as a result. As a result I weigh such reasons lightly, and there's very little chance that any amount of elaboration of reasons from the parents' point of view could ever change that. No amount of "good reasons" from the parents' point of view will magically make not being able to come home the best thing for the child. And yes I would "begrudge" (meaning say, hey there are bigger fish to fry right now) a party to someone who suspects their teen child is with an awful, abusive person and has nowhere else to go.

 

No one has said that the oldest daughter cannot come home. Tap has not said that the oldest daughter cannot come home. In fact, not too long ago she was pondering talking to her daughter about this very thing. So, don't read things into the situation that aren't there. 

 

I don't think it takes an all-powerful deity to understand that the fact that her daughter is with a troubling guy is a bigger problem for the daughter than for anyone else.

 

No kidding. No one on this thread would argue with this. However, toxic behavior affects everyone that comes in contact with it. Tap is being affected by it and she is right when she looks for ways to deal with this behavior and still remain an whole, complete person herself. 

 

There is one thing she can do, and that's to look at the question of him potentially being a nasty guy primarily in terms of her daughter's welfare rather than her own feelings. Help her come up with another place to live, if it can't be the family home. Barring that, at least talk to her about her concern about him in terms of the daughter's safety, do some education on the subject of red flags, and help make an emergency safety plan with the numbers of local women's resources etc. Accusing me of victim-blaming is a bit surreal in a thread full of insinuations about "where is the daughter in all this", talk of putting her up to confronting him, etc.

 

 

No one has said it can't be the family home. Additionally, the daughter hasn't expressed interest in leaving her boyfriend, either. No one has said that Tap and her husband wouldn't help her find another option if she wants one. As far as any of us knows, Tap has been nothing but supportive of this dd. 

 

Respectfully, you are jumping to conclusions and refusing to back off when people have told you that you don't have a grasp of the situation. 

Edited September 29, 2017 by TechWife

[winterbaby]

In fairness to Tap, I don't think she believes the boyfriend is a danger to her dd. Some of us have seen red flags based on her posts, but to the best of my knowledge, Tap hasn't said she's worried about her dd's safety.

 

You keep stressing that Tap is more concerned about her own feelings than those of her dd, but that is simply not true. Tap has cared so much about her dd's feelings that she has continually gone out of her way to try to be friendly with the boyfriend, as well as to try her best not to put her daughter in the middle of her relationship issues with the boyfriend. She is doing everything she can to reduce her dd's stress and to try not to put her dd into an awkward position where she has to keep choosing between her family and her boyfriend.

 

I'm not sure why you seem so intent on blaming Tap and painting her as a bad mother. :confused:

 

The daughter should have another option for where to live whether he's a bad guy or not. No woman and certainly no eighteen year old girl should ever be in a living situation with a partner where it's her only option and at eighteen I still, unlike some, believe the family has a significant role in helping determine what her options will be. My daughter could be 45 and I wouldn't want to see her dependent on a man in that way. For a man to know that his partner has no other option can sometimes lead to an unhealthy power dynamic and cause a situation that started out superficially OK to turn bad. Besides, what is the long-term plan here? Where does the DD go when the relationship ends up the way most relationships among that age group end up? It does sometime happen that a young person ends up not living with the family for one reason or another but particularly having it be with a partner, at such a young age and in such a state of dependency given her illness, is bad news. That's even if he has a stellar personality and sterling character. But apparently he doesn't. It may not have previously occurred to Tap that this guy's problems have implications beyond the tenor of her own interactions with him, but now people have pointed it out to her.

[TechWife]

The daughter should have another option for where to live whether he's a bad guy or not. No woman and certainly no eighteen year old girl should ever be in a living situation with a partner where it's her only option and at eighteen I still, unlike some, believe the family has a significant role in helping determine what her options will be. My daughter could be 45 and I wouldn't want to see her dependent on a man in that way. For a man to know that his partner has no other option can sometimes lead to an unhealthy power dynamic and cause a situation that started out superficially OK to turn bad. Besides, what is the long-term plan here? Where does the DD go when the relationship ends up the way most relationships among that age group end up? It does sometime happen that a young person ends up not living with the family for one reason or another but particularly having it be with a partner, at such a young age and in such a state of dependency given her illness, is bad news. That's even if he has a stellar personality and sterling character. But apparently he doesn't. It may not have previously occurred to Tap that this guy's problems have implications beyond the tenor of her own interactions with him, but now people have pointed it out to her.

 

Tap's daughter has not been kicked out of her parents' house. She can return if she wants too. Why don't you understand that? 

[winterbaby]

Tap's daughter has not been kicked out of her parents' house. She can return if she wants too. Why don't you understand that? 

 

My understanding is that she found the environment created by the other child's behavior intolerable given her own health condition, so it's not a real option.

 

[Catwoman]

It sounds as if you do not like the BF; it also sounds to me as if Tap does not like BF.   What I am perplexed by is his being criticized for direct accusations that Tap doesn't like him.

 

I'm sorry -- I don't think I understand your question. (I'm not trying to be snarky -- I really don't understand! :) )

[Catwoman]

The daughter should have another option for where to live whether he's a bad guy or not. No woman and certainly no eighteen year old girl should ever be in a living situation with a partner where it's her only option and at eighteen I still, unlike some, believe the family has a significant role in helping determine what her options will be. My daughter could be 45 and I wouldn't want to see her dependent on a man in that way. For a man to know that his partner has no other option can sometimes lead to an unhealthy power dynamic and cause a situation that started out superficially OK to turn bad. Besides, what is the long-term plan here? Where does the DD go when the relationship ends up the way most relationships among that age group end up? It does sometime happen that a young person ends up not living with the family for one reason or another but particularly having it be with a partner, at such a young age and in such a state of dependency given her illness, is bad news. That's even if he has a stellar personality and sterling character. But apparently he doesn't. It may not have previously occurred to Tap that this guy's problems have implications beyond the tenor of her own interactions with him, but now people have pointed it out to her.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you. I would hope that all of us would be concerned about our kids, no matter how old they are. I agree that it would be best if Tap's dd had additional options for where to live -- but I'm sure Tap will work with her dd to find a good option if and when her dd decides that she doesn't want to keep living with the boyfriend and she's not comfortable moving back home. The thing is, Tap's dd still want to live with the boyfriend, so it's not an issue for her dd right now. 

 

 

My understanding is that she found the environment created by the other child's behavior intolerable given her own health condition, so it's not a real option.

 

I agree with you that the situation with the younger dd makes it difficult for the older dd to move back home, but Tap seems to have a good relationship with her, so I have every reason to believe that the dd would feel comfortable telling Tap if she needed a new place to live, and that Tap would fully understand why she wouldn't want to move back home.