This is how we should all approach the race question.

[poppy]

But isn't that the whole point - that people DON'T treat others with respect???? I don't understand your snark here.

 

Anne

White supremacy organizers say all races should be treated with respect . And they are just advocating for their race the way non whites advocate for their own self interest. Talking about race as 'let's all treat each other with dignity ' is a safe way to describe race relations even in virulently racist communities. So -- yeah it's true but you get no points for saying it.

[Pawz4me]

White supremacy organizers say all races should be treated with respect . And they are just advocating for their race the way non whites advocate for their own self interest. Talking about race as 'let's all treat each other with dignity ' is a safe way to describe race relations even in virulently racist communities. So -- yeah it's true but you get no points for saying it.

 

If we start attacking well meaning people who are truly trying to understand (which I think most of us here--not all, but most-- are earnestly trying to do). . .well, we may as well hang it up. There's no way anything constructive is ever going to be accomplished by snarking at people like that. FWIW, I also think the OP was well meant and didn't deserve the tone her post was first met with.

 

I honestly don't know how to live in a world where saying we should treat all people with respect is somehow a bad thing. I truly don't. I think there's probably no hope for us.

[Guest]

That's very big of you, to declare everyone should be treated with respect. I mean c'mon. That is baseline human, not a goal.

I don't even know what you're saying. Of course it is baseline human, and it doesn't always happen, but her little guy was absolutely on the right track for his age and I was agreeing and complimenting her.

 

What a weird attack out of left field...?

[Guest]

But isn't that the whole point - that people DON'T treat others with respect???? I don't understand your snark here.

 

Anne

Her point is to be unkind or deliberately obtuse, from what I can tell. Sheesh. Edited September 27, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[Guest]

White supremacy organizers say all races should be treated with respect . And they are just advocating for their race the way non whites advocate for their own self interest. Talking about race as 'let's all treat each other with dignity ' is a safe way to describe race relations even in virulently racist communities. So -- yeah it's true but you get no points for saying it.

Who the heck is going for points? I was explaining the viewpoint we reinforce with our kids and that the OP does as well. I don't know what white supremacist groups do or don't claim because, dun dun dun, I have absolutely zero contact with them.

 

Seriously, back off.

[nixpix5]

This is just not true.

 

Here's an example of a discriminatory "colorblind" rule - students attending XYZ school cannot have "gang" hairstyles like cornrows or dreadlocks. Translation? Common hairstyles for African-American children and youths are "gang" hairstyles, they should treat their hair so it acts more like white person hair.

Yeah, this one is sad to me and I agree, it needs to not be like this at all. It is a vicious cycle. I grew up in an area in the 90s when black gangs were everywhere. It was so bad they put together police task forces to deal with it. It was a scary time and I had some scary stuff happen to me. I did not know fear of black men until the experiences I had with them during a 4 year period. I was traumatized. I believe my adolescent brain began forming assumptions, ie men that have this hair style, this type of clothing, who talk this way and walk this way want to harm me. I just never felt that way or noticed skin color until then. My own high school banned dreads and cornrows during that era as well as certain clothing and colors. While it was hurtful for some of the great kids at my school, it protected them in the moment because innocent boys with certain hair styles and clothing were getting shot at and beaten up.

 

I had to check my own prejudice at the door because there was such a deep anxiety that came up some times from that time. I didn't want to hurt or offend someone but what happened in me was sometimes very primal. In a 4 year period as a teen I had my house broken into, my neighbors murdered, a gun held to my head, my boyfriend beat up, my friend shot in the head, I was raped and my classroom learning disrupted not to mention being grabbed at and cat called by 20 to 30 something black men who fit a certain profile. I grew so terrified I didn't want to be out at night in my town. It took me YEARS to stop seeing cornrows and saggy pants as things only gang members wore. In my area, it was mostly true that guys didn't wear them if they weren't identifying a certain way.

 

Now, over time that hasn't held true. I think it is much more mainstream now but atleast in my area it wasn't the case back then.

 

This isn't excusing it and I want you to hear that I agree with you. Hiding race conversations and pretending preconceived prejudices don't exist is not the answer. I have had to work incredibly hard to not get defensive about this topic. There was a time I wanted to because of my own bad experiences. I was hurt, wounded, traumatized by many black men.

 

When I grew up and worked with at risk youth I ended up working with many gang members. These young boys who had lived this tough life. They were soft hearted inside, so soft hearted in fact and so used to being hurt and thinking of themselves as garbage that they lashed out. They wanted to belong, they cared deeply what people thought, just not the right people. Something really changed in me, something broke. I loved these boys so much. I sat for hours running groups, listening to stories and a common thread ran through. They got to a certain age and the world was terrified by them. I remember one teen boy breaking down into sobs...he had such a chip on his shoulder until then and he said that suddenly when he grew tall and went through puberty people would lock their doors when he walked by. He could hear the click. People would cross the street so as not to walk past him. He started seeing himself different. He became who they believed he was. That moment changed me deeply. He also had been hurt by black men in his community who had, themselves been hurt. The worst part is I tried so hard to help him. I took him to community college and got him enrolled, helped him find a job, got him into substance abuse counseling but I couldn't change that deep image of himself. He ended up falling right back into gang activity and is now in prison.

 

Still, those boys were my own saving grace because until then I couldn't figure out why they wouldn't just stop doing crime. No kidding, I am embarrassed to admit it but that was how I thought.

 

I did get robbed twice after by boys in my gang groups but it was easier for me to see it as an individual issue and not a race issue.

 

I am one story and one experience. Each person, regardless of color, walks around having been victimized by others. You just cannot live life without experiencing it. We then assign rationale for it. We feel safer by doing it. My teen self said "I only have been hurt by black men, therefore if I avoid them I will be safe" deep down in my psyche that was the script that formed. It was toxic. I don't want to see any toxic scripts formed in anyone's mind. We need to just keep having honest race relations conversations. Most people mean well but people are complicated.

 

Becoming a Christian and seeing each person as someone loved and cherished by God changed my heart alot too. Everyone is a unique soul and should not be held accountable for someone else's behaviors just because they share a skin color, culture or religion.

 

Try not to eat me alive for this post. I was being completely transparent and that is scary. I just was trying to show my own journey and the complexity in it which is why the topic can be so sensitive and misunderstandings can take place.

[Barb_]

That was beautiful and honest.

[Ausmumof3]

I hear what you're saying, but I guess it depends on the person. We're a multi-racial family and dh does not like race brought up at all outside of our family (probably from a lifetime of hearing "what country are you from?").

 

We had an issue a couple of weeks ago at an amusement park, so this is a sensitive topic in our household right now. Dh let our 14 yro son go on a ride by himself. While he was waiting, one of the employees started harassing him about his ethnicity. He started off with the, "What are you?" (which is just rude) and after a number of rude and inappropriate questions, it just turned into, "Why does your terrorist country want to bomb us??" I mean, the guy wouldn't leave him alone. And ds was practically in tears when he rejoined us. All he wanted to do was ride the Superman, not explain his entire ethnic background, the military situation at the DMZ and his stance on allegiance to our country to a prying stranger.

 

Anyway, I'm tired and probably rambling, but what I'm trying to say is - dh just prefers people not bring it up (unless it's a respectful conversation, I guess). But, harassment is ridiculous. I don't know what some people are thinking sometimes.

 

And I probably shouldn't post when I'm exhausted. I'm probably not making any sense.

I'm so sorry. What a jerk!

[Janeway]

My 6yo son went with me to Target today. He's pretty mature for his age, so it wasn't a big deal when he was one aisle over for me... Until some other kid (16 or so) commented that "that white kid" needed to get out of the way so he could get his cart where he needed to go. On the way out of the store, my son asked me why they called him white. We had a bit of a conversation of it being just a descriptive term like "blonde," which he is. My 8yo piped up with a question about what would we call "not white." My 6yo responded, "People."

your children aren't privileged. They are being brought up right.

[Word Nerd]

That's very big of you, to declare everyone should be treated with respect. I mean c'mon. That is baseline human, not a goal.

C’mon indeed. Benign statements like that shouldn’t be met with sarcasm and sneering.

[EMS83]

...

Try not to eat me alive for this post. I was being completely transparent and that is scary. I just was trying to show my own journey and the complexity in it which is why the topic can be so sensitive and misunderstandings can take place.

Heavens no!  God bless you.   :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:   And thank you.

[Guest]

Heavens no! God bless you. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: And thank you.

Agree! I missed your post in my haste but I think this is so well stated.

[Tanaqui]

your children aren't privileged. They are being brought up right.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by emzhengjiu
personal attack

[Barb_]

Accidental post. Carry on.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Barb_

[Liz CA]

Yeah, this one is sad to me and I agree, it needs to not be like this at all. It is a vicious cycle. I grew up in an area in the 90s when black gangs were everywhere. It was so bad they put together police task forces to deal with it. It was a scary time and I had some scary stuff happen to me. I did not know fear of black men until the experiences I had with them during a 4 year period. I was traumatized. I believe my adolescent brain began forming assumptions, ie men that have this hair style, this type of clothing, who talk this way and walk this way want to harm me. I just never felt that way or noticed skin color until then. My own high school banned dreads and cornrows during that era as well as certain clothing and colors. While it was hurtful for some of the great kids at my school, it protected them in the moment because innocent boys with certain hair styles and clothing were getting shot at and beaten up.

 

I had to check my own prejudice at the door because there was such a deep anxiety that came up some times from that time. I didn't want to hurt or offend someone but what happened in me was sometimes very primal. In a 4 year period as a teen I had my house broken into, my neighbors murdered, a gun held to my head, my boyfriend beat up, my friend shot in the head, I was raped and my classroom learning disrupted not to mention being grabbed at and cat called by 20 to 30 something black men who fit a certain profile. I grew so terrified I didn't want to be out at night in my town. It took me YEARS to stop seeing cornrows and saggy pants as things only gang members wore. In my area, it was mostly true that guys didn't wear them if they weren't identifying a certain way.

 

Now, over time that hasn't held true. I think it is much more mainstream now but atleast in my area it wasn't the case back then.

 

This isn't excusing it and I want you to hear that I agree with you. Hiding race conversations and pretending preconceived prejudices don't exist is not the answer. I have had to work incredibly hard to not get defensive about this topic. There was a time I wanted to because of my own bad experiences. I was hurt, wounded, traumatized by many black men.

 

When I grew up and worked with at risk youth I ended up working with many gang members. These young boys who had lived this tough life. They were soft hearted inside, so soft hearted in fact and so used to being hurt and thinking of themselves as garbage that they lashed out. They wanted to belong, they cared deeply what people thought, just not the right people. Something really changed in me, something broke. I loved these boys so much. I sat for hours running groups, listening to stories and a common thread ran through. They got to a certain age and the world was terrified by them. I remember one teen boy breaking down into sobs...he had such a chip on his shoulder until then and he said that suddenly when he grew tall and went through puberty people would lock their doors when he walked by. He could hear the click. People would cross the street so as not to walk past him. He started seeing himself different. He became who they believed he was. That moment changed me deeply. He also had been hurt by black men in his community who had, themselves been hurt. The worst part is I tried so hard to help him. I took him to community college and got him enrolled, helped him find a job, got him into substance abuse counseling but I couldn't change that deep image of himself. He ended up falling right back into gang activity and is now in prison.

 

Still, those boys were my own saving grace because until then I couldn't figure out why they wouldn't just stop doing crime. No kidding, I am embarrassed to admit it but that was how I thought.

 

I did get robbed twice after by boys in my gang groups but it was easier for me to see it as an individual issue and not a race issue.

 

I am one story and one experience. Each person, regardless of color, walks around having been victimized by others. You just cannot live life without experiencing it. We then assign rationale for it. We feel safer by doing it. My teen self said "I only have been hurt by black men, therefore if I avoid them I will be safe" deep down in my psyche that was the script that formed. It was toxic. I don't want to see any toxic scripts formed in anyone's mind. We need to just keep having honest race relations conversations. Most people mean well but people are complicated.

 

Becoming a Christian and seeing each person as someone loved and cherished by God changed my heart alot too. Everyone is a unique soul and should not be held accountable for someone else's behaviors just because they share a skin color, culture or religion.

 

Try not to eat me alive for this post. I was being completely transparent and that is scary. I just was trying to show my own journey and the complexity in it which is why the topic can be so sensitive and misunderstandings can take place.

 

Awesome post. Everyone, read it twice or three times.

 

Some people here like to take a tone that is "teaching" and "educating"...and sometimes a bit condescending. I like true, straightforward information - in fact I appreciate it very much - without the ad hominem attacks or making people feel like idiots for not already knowing what they are asking.

 

Like nixpix, I have a lot of contact with African Americans, Punjabis, Asians through my work and some are my clients. Since I also work in Behavioral Health, we do get to dig a little deeper and we get to see frequently what is under the veneer.

 

 

[poppy]

Her point is to be unkind or deliberately obtuse, from what I can tell. Sheesh.

 

No, it wasn't.  I just - it was one of the first posts on the thread, and got 8 likes for "All these people are made in God's image and should be treated with the same dignity and respect we ourselves would want."   I  don't understand why anyone would not treat "all these people" with dignity and respect.

 

 

It was a bit of an eye roll really. 

 

Anyway,  my post has since been deleted by a mod for personal attack. I think calling me "unkind" isn't exactly not a personal attack. But honestly. I never meant to get personal.  Just "all these people" set my teeth on edge.

[Carol in Cal.]

quote deleted

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by emzhengjiu
response to a deleted quote

[Carol in Cal.]

No, it wasn't.  I just - it was one of the first posts on the thread, and got 8 likes for "All these people are made in God's image and should be treated with the same dignity and respect we ourselves would want."   I  don't understand why anyone would not treat "all these people" with dignity and respect.

 

 

It was a bit of an eye roll really. 

 

Anyway,  my post has since been deleted by a mod for personal attack. I think calling me "unkind" isn't exactly not a personal attack. But honestly. I never meant to get personal.  Just "all these people" set my teeth on edge.

 

Poppy, surely you must be aware that there was a time when arguments were made that some groups of people were subhuman--so that assertion needed to be made, and in fact at times required a fair amount of moral and/or physical courage to make it.

[poppy]

Poppy, surely you must be aware that there was a time when arguments were made that some groups of people were subhuman--so that assertion needed to be made, and in fact at times required a fair amount of moral and/or physical courage to make it.

By members of this forum? It is an act of moral courage to declare that no racial groups are subhuman ? Yikes.

 

When you set the bar that low it's really easy to applaud yourself for ... not being horribly racist ? And then what next? Or is that all the thinking on this topic that anyone ever needs?

 

 

Again - this isn't meant as a slap against AM. More against members of the group patting themselves on the back for saying something like 'we should treat everyone with dignity regardless of skin color' . It's not something i thought we'd disagree about.

Edited September 28, 2017 by poppy

[Tanaqui]

If people on this thread choose to make up their own definition of words like "cat" or "sky" or "privilege", that's not my problem, but I don't need to pretend that they aren't in a position to know better.

 

And that is exactly how I see it. If she came here and said "Your kid isn't wrong, the sky really IS the thing you eat with ice cream", or "Your child isn't ignorant, they're being raised right, 2+2 IS 5" I'd say the exact same thing

Edited September 28, 2017 by Tanaqui

[Carol in Cal.]

By members of this forum? It is an act of moral courage to declare that no racial groups are subhuman ? Yikes.

 

 

I specifically said, 'there was a time'.  If you think about that, I think you will realize that in no way does this refer to the recent past, and by extension, to members of this forum.

 

But I am actually old enough that I have been in such situations, unfortunately.  That might not be the case for you, I hope not.  The one that comes to mind has to do with an older woman who was raised in Germany during WWII and believed, and assumed that everyone did, that Jews were subhuman, as she HAD BEEN TAUGHT.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

Again - this isn't meant as a slap against AM. More against members of the group patting themselves on the back for saying something like 'we should treat everyone with dignity regardless of skin color' . It's not something i thought we'd disagree about.

I don't think anyone is patting themselves on the back, more like cheering.  

It's not something anyone disagrees about that I know of.

[meena]

Why is it that the more people throw out the race card, the more I am reminded of melatonin counts? I look around at the local gas station this morning as I read this post. There are all kinds of people sitting around eating breakfast together. (A really cool gas station with gourmet food.). No one seems to recognize any physical features of anyone that I could tell. So everyone who keeps telling me there is a race card to pull, let me take you back a few decades. Until then, I am going to understand that the race card sells newspapers and keeps people in unrest which sells more newspapers. The more we stay in unrest, the more children learn to pull a race card. I would venture to say that people in poverty, people obese, the elderly, homeless, the handicapped, those wearing certain religious articles, those passed out behind the wheel of a car, and those scratching their buttocks get more discrimination, in today's America. But, I am not sure anyone is keeping any statistics on such. At least I have never looked for any.

 

Are you white? If so, then it's easy for you to feel like it's just a "race card". You can see people of various skin colors eating and socializing harmoniously and not see the subtle acts of discrimination that happen all the time. I'm white and at one time might have thought similarly. I married a man with much darker skin than my own, and that has opened my eyes in many ways. First, I've heard his personal accounts, as well as those of his family, of being discriminated against. And not a long time ago, but in present times. Second, I've seen how some people act toward him (negatively), not realizing that we're together, and then seeing their demeanor change (to be more positive) when they realize he's with the white lady. Honestly, it bugs me when people assume we're not together because we don't have matching melanin. I've heard him called nasty words to his face and told to "go back to his own country" even though he was born in the US. He gets profiled because he looks "middle Eastern" even though he's not.

 

For you to think that racism ended decades ago and is only brought up in today's world to drive drama and sell newspapers is exactly why the term "white privilege" exists.

[meena]

OP, your son sounds like a very astute little guy! These conversations can be complicated, so I think it's great that you're talking openly about topics that some parents may avoid because it gets tough. I wonder what our kids' generation will be like as these topics are talked about more broadly and openly than when we were kids (at least in my experience).