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On "taking a knee"


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Speaking of respect and disrespect, can we have a calm and respectful conversation about this issue that is dominating the news? I'm hopeful we can. However, if you continue to shout, using your all caps, and jump over people who agree, disagree, and with those who are asking questions to sort through all this, the thread will be shut down.

 

I think this can be an enlightening discussion as long as someone doesn't talk down (or shout down) those with whom they disagree.

 

Thank you! While I am pleasantly surprised the thread is still going - moderators seem to have selectively deleted certain comments only - I do agree that virtual screeching does not move us forward. Even in the midst of pain and fear and a lot of other emotions, it seems more productive to debate issues and not resort to sarcasm and ad hominem attacks.

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Where did the idea that the *national* anthem was only to honor our military? We need a new anthem, if that's the case.

 

America seems to have this borderline cult mindset about our military. We must always honor them, thank them, never criticize the things they're doing, or point out that some of it isn't actually defending America's freedom (Iraq?!) unless you want to deal with serious social repercussions. Military is sacred. Military First.

 

As a military family, I have a problem with this too. Not all who serve are heroes or in it for the right reasons. Some are real jerks. Most are normal people just trying to do their jobs. Military families do make sacrifices, and I think those sacrifices should be respected, but we aren't perfect and shouldn't be worshiped.

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You know, I'm really concerned with the number of people who seem to think that patriotic gestures - like showing a flag or standing for the anthem or pledge - specifically are to show solidarity with the armed forces. Can't we be patriotic without being militaristic?

 

I think we can. I respect the military as a whole, the sacrifices they and their families make. I don't always like how this resource is employed.

But, yes, I think you can show awareness that you live in a great country - not a perfect one, one with several issues to work on, one that is continuously evolving - but still feel happy and privileged to live here - regardless of your view of military and militaristic involvement.

 

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I was at PickNSave this morning doing some grocery shopping and the cashier & bagger spent the whole time talking about how they are sick of the sore losers who lost the election and refuse to move on, comparing the current president to Lincoln, and how it's so inappropriate to bring politics into your job.

 

Oh, the irony. Preach it, Alanis.

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I only read about half of this thread, and I have no desire to vilify anyone, but this is how I feel.

 

In my mind: 

 

*The national anthem represents all of those who have served.

*Standing for it is an act of solidarity and respect to service men and women.

*It has zero to do with politics.

*Taking a knee is a well-intentioned, but wrong way to protest. To me, it's like egging your doctor's car because you're frustrated with our healthcare system. It's going after the wrong people.

*I don't think any of the people taking a knee intend for it to be disrespectful to the armed forces. Intent vs. Impact. Even if they don't intend the disrespect, that is the impact it is having on many.

*I prefer taking a knee to sitting on your butt.

*Colin Kaepernick was overrated. Always. He's not an employed quarterback for 2 reasons- First, he was never consistently that good. Second, he made himself controversial. You can stay in football (sometimes) if one of those factors applies, but definitely not if both do. 

 

I don't need anyone to agree with me. 

 

The national anthem, much as I can't sing it and it wouldn't have been my pick (America the Beautiful for the anthem!), represents me as an American, despite the fact I have never served in the armed forces. It represents the whole population not just the armed forces and veterans. 

 

Since you haven't read the whole thread, I'll let you know that many posters have said service men & women they're familiar with have no qualms with kneeling during the anthem as a protest. Here's a WWII veteran getting down on one knee in support yesterday: http://mashable.com/2017/09/25/wwii-veteran-take-knee-support-protest/#HO.4h9mvjmq9 

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Where did the idea that the *national* anthem was only to honor our military? We need a new anthem, if that's the case.

 

America seems to have this borderline cult mindset about our military. We must always honor them, thank them, never criticize the things they're doing, or point out that some of it isn't actually defending America's freedom (Iraq?!) unless you want to deal with serious social repercussions. Military is sacred. Military First.

 

 

You know, I'm really concerned with the number of people who seem to think that patriotic gestures - like showing a flag or standing for the anthem or pledge - specifically are to show solidarity with the armed forces. Can't we be patriotic without being militaristic?

 

 

As a military family, I have a problem with this too. Not all who serve are heroes or in it for the right reasons. Some are real jerks. Most are normal people just trying to do their jobs. Military families do make sacrifices, and I think those sacrifices should be respected, but we aren't perfect and shouldn't be worshiped.

 

Yes, all of the above.

 

I have no idea how the military managed to co-opt the National Anthem. As the daughter of a WWII vet it scares the carp out of me (fascism again).

 

If the military somehow owns the Star Spangled Banner then we need to have a very serious discussion about either how to take it back or about picking something else for our national anthem. Hopefully America the Beautiful, which has always been the better choice IMO. ;)

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America the Beautiful isn't half bad, though I've always liked America - too bad it has the same tune as God Save the Queen, though. Could get awkward at international events :)

 

(Alternatively, we could go with Lift Every Voice, which is beautiful, but to be honest, I'm only suggesting because I think it's funny to imagine freaking out white supremacists with the idea of having the Black National Anthem as everybody's national anthem!)

 

At any rate, either one of those is infinitely more singable than The Star-Spangled Banner. Drinking song melodies should never be made into patriotic songs.

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The national anthem, much as I can't sing it and it wouldn't have been my pick (America the Beautiful for the anthem!), represents me as an American, despite the fact I have never served in the armed forces. It represents the whole population not just the armed forces and veterans.

 

Since you haven't read the whole thread, I'll let you know that many posters have said service men & women they're familiar with have no qualms with kneeling during the anthem as a protest. Here's a WWII veteran getting down on one knee in support yesterday: http://mashable.com/2017/09/25/wwii-veteran-take-knee-support-protest/#HO.4h9mvjmq9

♥ï¸â™¥ï¸â™¥ï¸

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The national anthem, much as I can't sing it and it wouldn't have been my pick (America the Beautiful for the anthem!), represents me as an American, despite the fact I have never served in the armed forces. It represents the whole population not just the armed forces and veterans. 

 

Since you haven't read the whole thread, I'll let you know that many posters have said service men & women they're familiar with have no qualms with kneeling during the anthem as a protest. Here's a WWII veteran getting down on one knee in support yesterday: http://mashable.com/2017/09/25/wwii-veteran-take-knee-support-protest/#HO.4h9mvjmq9 

Yeah, I'm sure that's true but based on the fact that I have been/am part of that community, I'll just say that the exceptions are not the rule.  

 

And while, of course, every American might feel a connection with the national anthem, it is different for those who have served.

 

Yes, there are exceptions all around, and I mean this with absolutely no disrespect, but you haven't served. You haven't been the wife or child of a service person (I'm assuming based on your statement above). There are layers to this that you do not understand and pointing out the exceptions doesn't really change anything.

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Yeah, I'm sure that's true but based on the fact that I have been/am part of that community, I'll just say that the exceptions are not the rule.

 

And while, of course, every American might feel a connection with the national anthem, it is different for those who have served.

 

Yes, there are exceptions all around, and I mean this with absolutely no disrespect, but you haven't served. You haven't been the wife or child of a service person (I'm assuming based on your statement above). There are layers to this that you do not understand and pointing out the exceptions doesn't really change anything.

It is not different. The national anthem is not a military anthem. Where on earth did that notion come from?

 

ETA: and speaking as the daughter, DIL, and granddaughter of service members I don't believe military service gives anyone the right to claim OUR national anthem.

Edited by Barb_
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I only read about half of this thread, and I have no desire to vilify anyone, but this is how I feel.

 

In my mind:

 

The national anthem represents all of those who have served.

 

No. The NATIONAL anthem represents the NATION.

 

These songs represent those who have served and their branch of service:

Anchors Aweigh - Navy

The Caissons go Rolling Along - Army

The Wild Blue Yonder - Air Force

The Marines Hymn - Marine Corps

 

 

*Standing for it is an act of solidarity and respect to service men and women.

 

No

 

*It has zero to do with politics.

*Taking a knee is a well-intentioned, but wrong way to protest.

 

Unless you are one of the oppressed, you don't get to decide what is right or wrong with their message or the delivery of it.

 

To me, it's like egging your doctor's car because you're frustrated with our healthcare system. It's going after the wrong people.

*I don't think any of the people taking a knee intend for it to be disrespectful to the armed forces. Intent vs. Impact. Even if they don't intend the disrespect, that is the impact it is having on many.

 

And just as many, if not more armed forces personnel are saying it is disrespectful to tell these people, whose rights they fight to defend that they are doing something wrong. IOW, opinions like yours are disrespectful to armed forces personnel and the constitution they defend. Intent vs. impact.

 

*I prefer taking a knee to sitting on your butt.

*Colin Kaepernick was overrated. Always. He's not an employed quarterback for 2 reasons- First, he was never consistently that good. Second, he made himself controversial. You can stay in football (sometimes) if one of those factors applies, but definitely not if both do.

 

I don't need anyone to agree with me.

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As a military family, I have a problem with this too. Not all who serve are heroes or in it for the right reasons. Some are real jerks. Most are normal people just trying to do their jobs. Military families do make sacrifices, and I think those sacrifices should be respected, but we aren't perfect and shouldn't be worshiped.

:iagree: Vehemently!

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America the Beautiful isn't half bad, though I've always liked America - too bad it has the same tune as God Save the Queen, though. Could get awkward at international events :)

 

(Alternatively, we could go with Lift Every Voice, which is beautiful, but to be honest, I'm only suggesting because I think it's funny to imagine freaking out white supremacists with the idea of having the Black National Anthem as everybody's national anthem!)

 

At any rate, either one of those is infinitely more singable than The Star-Spangled Banner. Drinking song melodies should never be made into patriotic songs.

A good example of reverse discrimination.

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Yeah, I'm sure that's true but based on the fact that I have been/am part of that community, I'll just say that the exceptions are not the rule.  

 

And while, of course, every American might feel a connection with the national anthem, it is different for those who have served.

 

Yes, there are exceptions all around, and I mean this with absolutely no disrespect, but you haven't served. You haven't been the wife or child of a service person (I'm assuming based on your statement above). There are layers to this that you do not understand and pointing out the exceptions doesn't really change anything.

 

No disrespect???  You just told me that the national anthem isn't mine; I get a "connection" to it, but it's only the military's. That's like telling me I am a second-class citizen in my opinion. Thanks for that.

 

It's not just a military anthem; you may feel a deep connection to it, but your connection is not any more important than my connection. 

 

I was going to list all of the members of my family who have served, but obviously, we aren't going to come to an agreement on this, and I'm just going to make myself mad.

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Yeah, I'm sure that's true but based on the fact that I have been/am part of that community, I'll just say that the exceptions are not the rule.  

 

And while, of course, every American might feel a connection with the national anthem, it is different for those who have served.

 

Yes, there are exceptions all around, and I mean this with absolutely no disrespect, but you haven't served. You haven't been the wife or child of a service person (I'm assuming based on your statement above). There are layers to this that you do not understand and pointing out the exceptions doesn't really change anything.

 

This sounds like a friend of mine who was in the middle of IVF, researching adoption, who said to me, with my 3 month-old baby, that people who go through IVF/adoption love their babies more than those who don't struggle with fertility.

 

You may feel like it, but that doesn't make it true.

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Yeah, I'm sure that's true but based on the fact that I have been/am part of that community, I'll just say that the exceptions are not the rule.

 

And while, of course, every American might feel a connection with the national anthem, it is different for those who have served.

 

Yes, there are exceptions all around, and I mean this with absolutely no disrespect, but you haven't served. You haven't been the wife or child of a service person (I'm assuming based on your statement above). There are layers to this that you do not understand and pointing out the exceptions doesn't really change anything.

This is flat out wrong and incredibly disrespectful.

 

I AM the wife of a service person on active duty. My children miss out on a whole lot of their Dad and vice versa.

 

But NOTHING gives my husband, our children, or myself any more "connection" to the National anthem, nor a right to exclude any other person from that "connection" in any way.

 

I'm appalled.

 

Any military service member taking PERSONAL issue with citizens exercising their rights really needs to look at their own motivations, because this protest is not about them.

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Things that are explicitly related to what is being protested. And things that build the society you want to see. It is always most effective to build. Hardest, but most effective.

 

There were a bunch of them mentioned upthread, in several places. I can look them up later to link to, do not have time to do so right now.

I agree with your sentiment, but I still don't know what that looks like. They are protesting police brutality. How do they/we protest in a way that builds what we should all want for all people in terms of police restraint?

 

I'll look for more examples from you. Thanks.

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Yeah, I'm sure that's true but based on the fact that I have been/am part of that community, I'll just say that the exceptions are not the rule.

 

And while, of course, every American might feel a connection with the national anthem, it is different for those who have served.

 

Yes, there are exceptions all around, and I mean this with absolutely no disrespect, but you haven't served. You haven't been the wife or child of a service person (I'm assuming based on your statement above). There are layers to this that you do not understand and pointing out the exceptions doesn't really change anything.

I am a military veteran.

 

I do have strong feelings about the flag and the national anthem both--because they represent to me the country I love and would give my life for.

 

They DO NOT represent the military itself. They represent our nation, in all its messy diversity, mistakes, and striving. Members of the military, at their best, seek to serve that nation and make it a bit better.

 

So does every honorable citizen.

 

A patriot is a person who dreams and works for the good of their country.

 

Sometimes that may mean taking up a gun to defend the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

 

Sometimes that may mean taking a knee to raise awareness of where we as a national community are failing to stand up for those same rights.

 

Both actions can be done with honor and respect for the flag, the anthem, and all the best of what they can and do represent.

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I only read about half of this thread, and I have no desire to vilify anyone, but this is how I feel.

 

In my mind: 

 

*The national anthem represents all of those who have served.

*Standing for it is an act of solidarity and respect to service men and women.

*It has zero to do with politics.

*Taking a knee is a well-intentioned, but wrong way to protest. To me, it's like egging your doctor's car because you're frustrated with our healthcare system. It's going after the wrong people.

*I don't think any of the people taking a knee intend for it to be disrespectful to the armed forces. Intent vs. Impact. Even if they don't intend the disrespect, that is the impact it is having on many.

*I prefer taking a knee to sitting on your butt.

*Colin Kaepernick was overrated. Always. He's not an employed quarterback for 2 reasons- First, he was never consistently that good. Second, he made himself controversial. You can stay in football (sometimes) if one of those factors applies, but definitely not if both do. 

 

I don't need anyone to agree with me. 

 

My father and the other WWII vets I knew would be absolutely appalled and saddened by this. It would make them think their sacrifices had been for naught. This type of thinking is NOT what they fought for.

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This is flat out wrong and incredibly disrespectful.

 

I AM the wife of a service person on active duty. My children miss out on a whole lot of their Dad and vice versa.

 

But NOTHING gives my husband, our children, or myself any more "connection" to the National anthem, nor a right to exclude any other person from that "connection" in any way.

 

I'm appalled.

 

Any military service member taking PERSONAL issue with citizens exercising their rights really needs to look at their own motivations, because this protest is not about them.

 

Thank you for saying this.  

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What?

Yeah, it's nonsensical. Honestly, I think it is a tic. I see it a lot on Twitter, like on the Dallas Cowboys Twitter post from last night. People just spout off things like "black on black crime" and "reverse discrimination" apropos of absolutely nothing.

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A patriot is a person who dreams and works for the good of their country.

 

Sometimes that may mean taking up a gun to defend the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

 

Sometimes that may mean taking a knee to raise awareness of where we as a national community are failing to stand up for those same rights.

 

Both actions can be done with honor and respect for the flag, the anthem, and all the best of what they can and do represent.

This is well stated.

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America the Beautiful isn't half bad, though I've always liked America - too bad it has the same tune as God Save the Queen, though. Could get awkward at international events :)

 

(Alternatively, we could go with Lift Every Voice, which is beautiful, but to be honest, I'm only suggesting because I think it's funny to imagine freaking out white supremacists with the idea of having the Black National Anthem as everybody's national anthem!)

 

At any rate, either one of those is infinitely more singable than The Star-Spangled Banner. Drinking song melodies should never be made into patriotic songs.

 

The Stars and Stripes Forever would be really awesome, but only the trio section is really singable-even the President's Own Marine band and Soldier's Chorus don't try to sing the lyrics Sousa wrote for the other strains.

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If you're black and live in Missouri, and the NAACP puts out a travel advisory for black people to avoid Missouri, how do you build others' perspective, actions, and political cover to keep yourself safe?

 

 

 

I have a friend who is a Black pastor in Missouri.

 

He is working on community uplift in his native Ferguson, and he is also going to various white and mostly white groups and sharing what he sees, what he grew up seeing, what he is doing now, and what Black people deal with locally.  I saw him give such a presentation a few months back, and it was interesting to hear the discussion of it afterwards.  One or two people questioned what he had said about his experiences, while others were pretty enlightened by that same information.  That second group is now able to frame these issues in a way that they didn't before, and that is helpful in building community support for change.  I personally am really glad to be able to quote him and others in talking with other Americans about how things are and how they should be.

 

I don't think he is safe, exactly, and I think that it's disgusting that he isn't.  But he is effective both locally and more broadly.  That's not the only answer to your question, but it's an example of a good one.

 

I hope to be effective as well.  I know that I have been part of raising a stand up kid, and also of arguing peacefully but clearly and persistently with people who think that we are equal already, even when I would rather scream at them (which is self-indulgent and counterproductive, so I try very hard not to do so.).  Nobody ever gets to say something racist in my presence without being called on it, or to try to make me 'assumed to agree' with anything like that.  I know that I have been able to be protective at times and defensive at times when someone else needed it.  I know that I have exercised my right to vote, and my lobbying powers.  These are necessary though not sufficient.

Edited by Carol in Cal.
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I agree with your sentiment, but I still don't know what that looks like. They are protesting police brutality. How do they/we protest in a way that builds what we should all want for all people in terms of police restraint?

 

I'll look for more examples from you. Thanks.

 

They are earlier in this thread from me and from someone else--Laurie R IIRC. 

 

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It is not different. The national anthem is not a military anthem. Where on earth did that notion come from?

 

ETA: and speaking as the daughter, DIL, and granddaughter of service members I don't believe military service gives anyone the right to claim OUR national anthem.

 

I'm not claiming it. That is absolutely not my point. But it is different.

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No disrespect???  You just told me that the national anthem isn't mine; I get a "connection" to it, but it's only the military's. That's like telling me I am a second-class citizen in my opinion. Thanks for that.

 

It's not just a military anthem; you may feel a deep connection to it, but your connection is not any more important than my connection. 

 

I was going to list all of the members of my family who have served, but obviously, we aren't going to come to an agreement on this, and I'm just going to make myself mad.

I didn't say that at all. I said that you don't get how service people feel about this because it's not your world or your life experience. THEREFORE, your examples of exceptions miss the point, because your emotional connection is DIFFERENT than ours.

 

In other words, I can go out and find someone in any category (woman, African American, liberal, republican, etc) and find an exception to whatever the common thinking/feeling is, but that person wouldn't prove any point or represent the group in any way. 

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I didn't say that at all. I said that you don't get how service people feel about this because it's not your world or your life experience. THEREFORE, your examples of exceptions miss the point, because your emotional connection is DIFFERENT than ours.

 

In other words, I can go out and find someone in any category (woman, African American, liberal, republican, etc) and find an exception to whatever the common thinking/feeling is, but that person wouldn't prove any point or represent the group in any way. 

 

Many of us have (or had, or both) service people in our family who do NOT think they have any special or different connection. We're telling you that you don't get to define how they feel about the issue. Yours is not the universal opinion of all military folks. 

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I didn't say that at all. I said that you don't get how service people feel about this because it's not your world or your life experience. THEREFORE, your examples of exceptions miss the point, because your emotional connection is DIFFERENT than ours.

 

It doesn't matter how you feel about it, your feelings don't get to determine the facts. The fact is that the National Anthem is a NATIONAL Anthem - not a military one. The fact is that making up "it's about respecting the military" in your own mind doesn't make this true. The fact is that your feelings are not more important than anybody else's. (And the fact is that I bet you don't know for sure which military opinion is outliers and which is standard. Does anybody have a poll on this subject?)

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This is flat out wrong and incredibly disrespectful.

 

I AM the wife of a service person on active duty. My children miss out on a whole lot of their Dad and vice versa.

 

But NOTHING gives my husband, our children, or myself any more "connection" to the National anthem, nor a right to exclude any other person from that "connection" in any way.

 

I'm appalled.

 

Any military service member taking PERSONAL issue with citizens exercising their rights really needs to look at their own motivations, because this protest is not about them.

Lord, how did everyone get the idea that I was taking the national anthem away from anyone?

 

That wasn't my point at all. My point was that these symbols are a much different part of their identity than the non-serving public. Do you really disagree with that- that patriotic symbols carry a different meaning for service people?

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Lord, how did everyone get the idea that I was taking the national anthem away from anyone?

 

That wasn't my point at all. My point was that these symbols are a much different part of their identity than the non-serving public. Do you really disagree with that- that patriotic symbols carry a different meaning for service people?

 

Yes. The service people I know/have known (quite a few family members, past and present) would for the most part vehemently disagree with you that patriotic symbols have any different or more special meaning to them than to people who haven't served. The military folks in my family have been very humble about their service and have never presumed it sets them apart in any way. Not the ones who were drafted during war time nor the ones who voluntarily chose military life.

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I'm not sure if this article has been posted yet, but it's a good read. Written by Eric Reid, explaining how the protest came about and how he and Kaepernick decided on taking a knee, rather than sitting or another form. I thought these sentences were particularly apt:

 

"After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former N.F.L. player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy."

 

 

 

 

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Speaking of respect and disrespect, can we have a calm and respectful conversation about this issue that is dominating the news? I'm hopeful we can. However, if you continue to shout, using your all caps, and jump over people who agree, disagree, and with those who are asking questions to sort through all this, the thread will be shut down.

 

I think this can be an enlightening discussion as long as someone doesn't talk down (or shout down) those with whom they disagree.

 

"Jumping over" and "shouting down" others???? I think Sneezy's contributions to this thread have been entirely respectful and incredibly generous, in substantively engaging the issues as well as sharing her deep distress and concern for her family, friends and community.

 

I really like how our pastor described Black Lives Matter using the metaphor of a fire department. When there's a house fire, firefighters don't go knocking at every house in town to make sure everyone is okay. They head straight to the house that's going up in flames--and it's not because they don't care about all the houses.

 

Sneezy, thanks to your husband for his service, to you and your kids for your service as military family members, and for the intellectual and emotional labor you put into this thread. It's got to be exhausting. 

 

Amy

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I didn't say that at all. I said that you don't get how service people feel about this because it's not your world or your life experience. THEREFORE, your examples of exceptions miss the point, because your emotional connection is DIFFERENT than ours.

 

In other words, I can go out and find someone in any category (woman, African American, liberal, republican, etc) and find an exception to whatever the common thinking/feeling is, but that person wouldn't prove any point or represent the group in any way.

It IS my world and life experience. Am I an example of an exception? What about all the other posters in this thread who are veterans or family of military members - are they exceptions too? How many exceptions does it take to not be an 'exception' any more? It looks to me that the majority here tend to side with "citizens' rights are exactly what the flag is all about" vs. "the flag is about respecting the military."

 

IOW, your point does not get to represent all service members and their families.

Edited by fraidycat
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Yes. The service people I know/have known (quite a few family members, past and present) would for the most part vehemently disagree with you that patriotic symbols have any different or more special meaning to them than to people who haven't served. The military folks in my family have been very humble about their service and have never presumed it sets them apart in any way. Not the ones who were drafted during war time nor the ones who voluntarily chose military life.

Exactly.

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I have a friend who is a Black pastor in Missouri.

 

He is working on community uplift in his native Ferguson, and he is also going to various white and mostly white groups and sharing what he sees, what he grew up seeing, what he is doing now, and what Black people deal with locally. I saw him give such a presentation a few months back, and it was interesting to hear the discussion of it afterwards. One or two people questioned what he had said about his experiences, while others were pretty enlightened by that same information. That second group is now able to frame these issues in a way that they didn't before, and that is helpful in building community support for change. I personally am really glad to be able to quote him and others in talking with other Americans about how things are and how they should be.

 

I don't think he is safe, exactly, and I think that it's disgusting that he isn't. But he is effective both locally and more broadly. That's not the only answer to your question, but it's an example of a good one.

 

I hope to be effective as well. I know that I have been part of raising a stand up kid, and also of arguing peacefully but clearly and persistently with people who think that we are equal already, even when I would rather scream at them (which is self-indulgent and counterproductive, so I try very hard not to do so.). Nobody ever gets to say something racist in my presence without being called on it, or to try to make me 'assumed to agree' with anything like that. I know that I have been able to be protective at times and defensive at times when someone else needed it. I know that I have exercised my right to vote, and my lobbying powers. These are necessary though not sufficient.

The above example about the pastor is not a form of protest. He is actively working to change the status quo, and that is important work. It is extremely effective.

 

But I would still argue that protest needs to occur as well, otherwise some of those who are unaware will never be inspired to take up the cause. Protests are extremely effective in that regard. I see the two as both being vital to encourage change.

Edited by Homebody2
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The above example about the pastor is not a form of protest. He is actively working to change the status quo, and that is important work. It is extremely effective.

 

But I would still argue that protest needs to occur as well, otherwise those who are unaware will never be inspired to take up the cause. Protests are extremely effective in that regard. I see the two as both being vital to encourage change.

 

He is inspiring others to take up the cause even without protesting. 

Protesting is not the only way to inspire the unaware to take up a cause.

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A third factor in the ratings issue is the research on CTE, which is making many people pull away from football and switch to other sports. How that will play out, and whether it's even fixable, remains to be seen. But you are naive if you think the NFL ratings problem is entirely the result of white people being offended by players taking a knee.

 

This is a big reason why many are losing interest in the game. It's not why I did, but every time I think about starting to watch again I think about CTE. Dh's side of the family are football crazy and even they're starting to question whether their enjoyment of a game is worth it considering how many lives (not just the players but their families) can be ruined by CTE.

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He is inspiring others to take up the cause even without protesting.

Protesting is not the only way to inspire the unaware to take up a cause.

I don't believe you'll find anyone here will disagree with that. The things you mention are important and work in concert with large scale protest to change minds and hearts. Protest goes wide and community-level involvement goes deep. Real change needs both to take root and thrive.

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This is a big reason why many are losing interest in the game. It's not why I did, but every time I think about starting to watch again I think about CTE. Dh's side of the family are football crazy and even they're starting to question whether their enjoyment of a game is worth it considering how many lives (not just the players but their families) can be ruined by CTE.

 

Even Dh has been losing interest since all the info came out about CTE.  There are predictions out there about what will happen to football in the next decade, and it's not due to what's happening at this moment.

 

I wonder if it will end up being like boxing... still out there, but not with the same popularity.

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Even Dh has been losing interest since all the info came out about CTE.  There are predictions out there about what will happen to football in the next decade, and it's not due to what's happening at this moment.

 

I wonder if it will end up being like boxing... still out there, but not with the same popularity.

 

My husband, a life-long football fan, is also losing interest specifically because of the research on CTE.

 

FWIW, the large scale protests have increased, not decreased, the amount of respect he has for football players.

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Actually, if you look at the quote that I was answering you'll see someone denying exactly that.  Which is why I posted it.

I don't believe you'll find anyone here will disagree with that. The things you mention are important and work in concert with large scale protest to change minds and hearts. Protest goes wide and community-level involvement goes deep. Real change needs both to take root and thrive.

 

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Where did the idea that the *national* anthem was only to honor our military? We need a new anthem, if that's the case.

 

America seems to have this borderline cult mindset about our military. We must always honor them, thank them, never criticize the things they're doing, or point out that some of it isn't actually defending America's freedom (Iraq?!) unless you want to deal with serious social repercussions. Military is sacred. Military First.

 

Thank you. I am beyond grateful that there are people willing to defend us, with their lives if necessary, should our country be invaded.

 

That said, I do not owe, nor do I have, an unquestioning respect for all members of the military. I make no apologies for that. Some members of our military have tortured people. Many have killed innocent civilians, including children. If anyone thinks our military only "fights for our rights" and only fights for just causes, they need to think again.

 

I am aware that many people join with the very best of intentions, and that others were drafted. I also personally know people who joined specifically because they wanted to kill people or were disappointed that they did not have the opportunity to do so.

 

As you pointed out, Xuzi, there's a strange worshipful attitude towards the military in this country. I appreciate the military members and spouses here who have expressed that they're not comfortable with that type of adulation. I don't think it's right. I think it's dangerous.

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