Daycare-update

[gardenmom5]

OK what I mean is this week off doesnt teach the baby anything. I know they arent singling her out. Im not taking up for her. He shoukd not be allowed to bite. Trust me Id be pissed if my kid got bit over and over. Im just saying the week off is silly and will change nothing. Did I make myself clear? I agree biters should be kicked out. I do not understand what a week off will accomplish.

 

as other's have said - this gives the mom the opportunity to help teach him not to bite.

I doubt this was the first time - and probably not the second either.   but there should be a limit.

you agree biters should be kicked out - but you're upset your nephew was suspended.  (as in, he has an opportunity for a second chance to come back.) :confused1:   I'm confused at what I'm understanding, it sounds conflicting.

 

would you rather he was completely kicked out and she had to find new arrangements, instead of just for a week?

 

Maybe, so but she called and called and could not find other options.

 

most places don't' have spots for a single week.  if she was looking at a permanent change, she'd probably have more luck.  family members or friends might if they lived close enough.  or someone who does babysitting on the side.

[OneStepAtATime]

1.  OP, no a 1 week suspension is not going to solve the biting issue (but if this is ongoing then it at least protects the other kids and makes the parent aware that this is something the day care is taking seriously and is not equipped to deal with).  Some day schools have personnel that are actually trained in how to handle toddlers in a developmentally appropriate way.  Many day cares (and I have worked in some) seem to often not have trained personnel.  

2.  Toddlers bite for a variety of reasons:

• sensory seeking
• frustration over lack of communication
• stress at home
• stress at day care
• bullying
• etc.

3.  If the mom has a biter it may help to try and determine WHY he is biting but that can be hard to figure out.

4.  Yes my son was bitten as a 2 year old. I was not angry.  The other child was non-verbal and frustrated at his lack of ability to communicate.  After I explained to DS why he got bitten DS understood, too.  The school was supportive and tried harder to be proactive in helping this other child communicate and NOT get so frustrated that he would resort to biting.  He never bit DS again.

5.  My daughter bit another child.  She was hurt and frustrated and confused.  Same school.  They were very supportive and understanding and worked to help redirect her behavior and to help her understand why the other child had done what they did to get her so upset.

 

I'm sorry she is in such a challenging position.  I hope she can find a workable solution.

[Elizabeth86]

as other's have said - this gives the mom the opportunity to help teach him not to bite.

I doubt this was the first time - and probably not the second either. but there should be a limit.

you agree biters should be kicked out - but you're upset your nephew was suspended. (as in, he has an opportunity for a second chance to come back.) :confused1: I'm confused at what I'm understanding, it sounds conflicting.

 

would you rather he was completely kicked out and she had to find new arrangements, instead of just for a week?

 

 

most places don't' have spots for a single week. if she was looking at a permanent change, she'd probably have more luck. family members or friends might if they lived close enough. or someone who does babysitting on the side.

LISTEN CAREFULLY I am not upset. Never said I was upset he was suspended. I just dont think you can teach a not yet 2 year old not to bite if they arent biting at home. Im just confused how a week off is going to help. Im not upset at the situation, I feel it just wont help anything. She only has like 2 hours each evening with him after work and school and obviously that will be dinner, clean up, laundry, baths, bed and prep for the next day. Edited September 23, 2017 by Elizabeth86

[Elizabeth86]

1. OP, no a 1 week suspension is not going to solve the biting issue (but if this is ongoing then it at least protects the other kids and makes the parent aware that this is something the day care is taking seriously and is not equipped to deal with). Some day schools have personnel that are actually trained in how to handle toddlers in a developmentally appropriate way. Many day cares (and I have worked in some) seem to often not have trained personnel.

2. Toddlers bite for a variety of reasons:

• sensory seeking
• frustration over lack of communication
• stress at home
• stress at day care
• bullying
• etc.

3. If the mom has a biter it may help to try and determine WHY he is biting but that can be hard to figure out.

4. Yes my son was bitten as a 2 year old. I was not angry. The other child was non-verbal and frustrated at his lack of ability to communicate. After I explained to DS why he got bitten DS understood, too. The school was supportive and tried harder to be proactive in helping this other child communicate and NOT get so frustrated that he would resort to biting. He never bit DS again.

5. My daughter bit another child. She was hurt and frustrated and confused. Same school. They were very supportive and understanding and worked to help redirect her behavior and to help her understand why the other child had done what they did to get her so upset.

 

I'm sorry she is in such a challenging position. I hope she can find a workable solution.

Thanks for understanding what I am trying to say. I see the suspension is more of a wake up call to parents?I guess that makes a bit of sense.

[gardenmom5]

LISTEN CAREFULLY I am not upset. Never said I was upset he was suspended. I just dont think you can teach a not yet 2 year old not to bite if they arent biting at home. Im just confused how a week off is going to help. Im not upset at the situation, I feel it just wont help anything. She only has like 2 hours each evening with him after work and school and obviously that will be dinner, clean up, laundry, baths, bed and prep for the next day.

 

you can figure out WHY they are biting, and work on it from that angle.  and a week is time enough for that. 

It is also a way the daycare and make sure the mom knows they're serious.

 

if she's not even able/unwilling to figure out why he is biting - she should be prepared they may kick him out for good.

Edited September 23, 2017 by gardenmom5

[Janeway]

Really, it is the job of the daycare to take care of what happens during the day. Biting is s childcare issue. The daycare is failing to do their job.

[Catwoman]

Really, it is the job of the daycare to take care of what happens during the day. Biting is s childcare issue. The daycare is failing to do their job.

Why are you insisting that the daycare center has to "do their job" and deal with children who bite other children? And even you assume that's the case and they aren't doing their job, what is the solution? The mom can't force them to work with her son and teach him not to bite.

 

It seems to me that the daycare center is doing a very good thing by giving the mom a chance to try to correct the biting behavior in her child during the weeklong suspension, rather than simply telling her that they will no longer be able to accommodate her child.

 

You are correct when you say that job of the daycare is to take care of what happens during the day. They are doing exactly that. They are protecting all of the other children from this one particular child who bites.

[Catwoman]

LISTEN CAREFULLY I am not upset. Never said I was upset he was suspended. I just dont think you can teach a not yet 2 year old not to bite if they arent biting at home. Im just confused how a week off is going to help. Im not upset at the situation, I feel it just wont help anything. She only has like 2 hours each evening with him after work and school and obviously that will be dinner, clean up, laundry, baths, bed and prep for the next day.

I truly do sympathize with the mom. It's not like she wants her son to bite other kids. It's not like she doesn't want him to stop doing it. And on top of everything else, she's juggling an incredibly busy schedule and raising a child on her own. She is in a very difficult situation and I'm sure she's doing the very best she can.

 

The problem is that she can't expect the daycare to care about those things, and even if they do, they still have rules to follow and a lot of other parents who need to be kept happy -- parents who need to feel that their children are safe from things like being bitten by her son.

 

I'm sure he's a sweet little guy who has a temporary bad habit, and I hope everything works out for him and his mom. I know the mom doesn't have a lot of time each night to work with him, but it's only a week and I think she should give it her very best effort so he won't get kicked out of the daycare center for good. Perhaps she can also get the temporary babysitters to work with him on not biting others, as well.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I worked in daycares a quarter of a century ago. These policies were in place back then. A child has to be ready to pace with the group behaviorally or he's not safe and others aren't safe...I saw suspensions for biting that were lifted if mom went to the doctor, had a plan in place, and there was noticeable improvement. If this didn't happen, either the child lacked the support he needed to succeed in a group childcare setting, or *maybe he was too stressed by that setting.*

 

I used to help people, kind of unofficially, to find licensed in home providers in their area who had stopped providing care, or who only did before and after school, who would be willing to take on a child who needed a gentler environment and more attention. Getting "kicked out of daycare" may be the best thing that ever happened to some children, if their parents can find a better fit.

[Elizabeth86]

I truly do sympathize with the mom. It's not like she wants her son to bite other kids. It's not like she doesn't want him to stop doing it. And on top of everything else, she's juggling an incredibly busy schedule and raising a child on her own. She is in a very difficult situation and I'm sure she's doing the very best she can.

 

The problem is that she can't expect the daycare to care about those things, and even if they do, they still have rules to follow and a lot of other parents who need to be kept happy -- parents who need to feel that their children are safe from things like being bitten by her son.

 

I'm sure he's a sweet little guy who has a temporary bad habit, and I hope everything works out for him and his mom. I know the mom doesn't have a lot of time each night to work with him, but it's only a week and I think she should give it her very best effort so he won't get kicked out of the daycare center for good. Perhaps she can also get the temporary babysitters to work with him on not biting others, as well.

I never ever ever said SHE expected the day care to fix the problem. Im tired of people twisting what Im trying to say around. She doesnt expect a damn thing. She isnt even mad, just stressed. *I* am the one that thought this policy was odd not her, but I have no dc experience or have even given a thought to how a daycare might run. Im not mad either, I just thought it sounded like something that wouldnt be helpful. People, I was just curious if this is how things work everywhere and how she might help him. That is all. This was the reason for my post. Let me say it again, *SHE* does not expect anything, she is just feeling unsure of what to do. Clear enough?

 

Im not mad.

 

She is not mad.

 

No one is mad.

Edited September 23, 2017 by Elizabeth86

[kiwik]

It is for biting and I do see the daycare side of it. I would be upset if my kid was bit by other kids. I just cannot imagine anyone expecting a week off to change his behavior. I see not allowing the kid back anymore.

 

Any tips on teaching a 2 year old not to bite others?

Not where my kids went. Lots of 2 year olds bite so you need to supervise them closely. Ds10 got bitten quite a lot especially by his best friend. The only time he bit was that same friend at 4. The kids mother was quite pleased. Edited September 24, 2017 by kiwik

[kiwik]

I'm sorry to hear about her personal situation, but she needs to take responsibility for her own child's behavior and work closely with him to resolve the biting issue. I don't think it's fair of her to expect that the daycare will handle this for her, or that the other children at daycare should have to endure being bitten by her son.

It is not that simple. My 8 year old has just been expelled from school for losing his temper. He is borderline ASD and becomes overwhelmed easily. The new principal simply decided he didn't want to deal with his needs. There is nothing I can do to prevent him becoming upset at school. I can't stop kids teasing him, I can't control the noise and I can't give him to the support he needs. If it had happened even 2 months earlier it would have meant financial ruin. Her kid bites. It may only happen at daycare. Ds10 came home with enough bites to suspect it is pretty common - and no I didn't get stressed about it because mostly he couldn't remember getting them anyway.

[kiwik]

I truly do sympathize with the mom. It's not like she wants her son to bite other kids. It's not like she doesn't want him to stop doing it. And on top of everything else, she's juggling an incredibly busy schedule and raising a child on her own. She is in a very difficult situation and I'm sure she's doing the very best she can.

 

The problem is that she can't expect the daycare to care about those things, and even if they do, they still have rules to follow and a lot of other parents who need to be kept happy -- parents who need to feel that their children are safe from things like being bitten by her son.

 

I'm sure he's a sweet little guy who has a temporary bad habit, and I hope everything works out for him and his mom. I know the mom doesn't have a lot of time each night to work with him, but it's only a week and I think she should give it her very best effort so he won't get kicked out of the daycare center for good. Perhaps she can also get the temporary babysitters to work with him on not biting others, as well.

A week without daycare may mean not paying rent or eating. When you live pay to pay having to pay two lots of childcare for the week (and she will be paying the place he is suspended from) or taking a week off can wreck your finances for months not to mention causing crippling stress.

 

 

And why on earth should the childcare centre not care. Caring for kids and by extension their families is what they are there for. If you don' genuinely care about all the kids you should change careers.

 

Eta. I must learn to multi quote.

Edited September 24, 2017 by kiwik

[catz]

I think really when you have 12 toddlers in a single room with one person, they are expecting age inappropriate behavior.  That kind of set up is more like a preschool setting where kids would normally be at least 3.  But it can work for the 2 year olds with decent communication and social skills.  Some 2 year olds would do better with a more "baby" setting.   If he's biting repeatedly there, and not at home, this really may not be a good fit yet.  He may be stressed and overwhelmed.  The toddler may be trying to tell the world something.  Does it suck that this is a single mother who can't afford to not have daycare?  Yes, absolutely.  I think it's atrocious as a society, we don't work with families better.  But do I think a private probably understaffed daycare with 12 young kids in a single room need to make every behavioral situation work that comes up?  Not really.  I had a kid at 2 that would have been traumatized and hysterical with every bite.  She was a super sensitive preschooler.

 

Kiwik - that is awful.  Was that a public or a private school your son was removed from?  I hope you are able to find a better fit for him. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by WoolySocks

[Bluegoat]

LISTEN CAREFULLY I am not upset. Never said I was upset he was suspended. I just dont think you can teach a not yet 2 year old not to bite if they arent biting at home. Im just confused how a week off is going to help. Im not upset at the situation, I feel it just wont help anything. She only has like 2 hours each evening with him after work and school and obviously that will be dinner, clean up, laundry, baths, bed and prep for the next day.

 

It's idiotic.  If it is happening at the daycare, it has to do with the daycare environment.  There is nothing the mom can do about that.

 

The daycare environment isn't the mom's responsibility, she can't effect it, and she isn't there to respond to her kid and change his behaviour.

 

A child a bit older, maybe you could try and address it at home, but not at two.

 

Honestly, this is why daycare as normative for young toddlers probably can't work - you need a situation where the care an be more similar to a home environment, or parents can stay at home.  Good luck getting people to agree to ether of those though.

[catz]

It's idiotic.  If it is happening at the daycare, it has to do with the daycare environment.  There is nothing the mom can do about that.

 

The daycare environment isn't the mom's responsibility, she can't effect it, and she isn't there to respond to her kid and change his behaviour.

 

A child a bit older, maybe you could try and address it at home, but not at two.

 

Honestly, this is why daycare as normative for young toddlers probably can't work - you need a situation where the care an be more similar to a home environment, or parents can stay at home.  Good luck getting people to agree to ether of those though.

 

The mom chose the daycare environment.  It's possibly not working for the child.  Maybe the toddler would do better with an auntie or grandma type for another year or so.  I had to pull my kid out of school and make a change because of him acting out.  He was getting a rep as the bad kid at age 6.  It really was the best decision we ever made for him. 

 

Do I think it would be great if there were more and better  and more affordable options for kids that don't fit into a nice neat box?  Absolutely. 

 

I just don't get saying this is the daycare's problem, that they should deal if this has been a repeated and ongoing issue.  That is the time to step back and decide if a more holisitic change would be helpful.  This might be a very stressed toddler.  I don't think it's at all out of line for a time out and regroup.  Parenting is hard.   12 kids in one room is not a set up to allow for a parental level of shadowing and involvement. 

[Janeway]

Why are you insisting that the daycare center has to "do their job" and deal with children who bite other children? And even you assume that's the case and they aren't doing their job, what is the solution? The mom can't force them to work with her son and teach him not to bite.

 

It seems to me that the daycare center is doing a very good thing by giving the mom a chance to try to correct the biting behavior in her child during the weeklong suspension, rather than simply telling her that they will no longer be able to accommodate her child.

 

You are correct when you say that job of the daycare is to take care of what happens during the day. They are doing exactly that. They are protecting all of the other children from this one particular child who bites.

A GOOD daycare will not exceed the ratios put forth by NAEYC. A bad daycare will not only not maintain those ratios but will also pull staff members to do other things like clean, take out trash, cook, drive the bus, etc. A good daycare will have activities and a schedule and move the children from one activity to the next. A bad daycare will just coral the children for long periods at a time with little supervision. A good daycare will pay enough attention to the children, especially the biter, that they can head off a biting incident. A bad one won't. A bad one might demand that the parent fix what happens during the day from the distance of work. 

 

http://www.naeyc.org/event/challenging-behaviors/highlights

 

You cannot teach a child at 8pm to not bite at 10am. And I still maintain that this daycare is a bad one and a fail. And the suspension is just a symptom of a bigger problem with the daycare and their failure to know how to care for children.

[EmseB]

A GOOD daycare will not exceed the ratios put forth by NAEYC. A bad daycare will not only not maintain those ratios but will also pull staff members to do other things like clean, take out trash, cook, drive the bus, etc. A good daycare will have activities and a schedule and move the children from one activity to the next. A bad daycare will just coral the children for long periods at a time with little supervision. A good daycare will pay enough attention to the children, especially the biter, that they can head off a biting incident. A bad one won't. A bad one might demand that the parent fix what happens during the day from the distance of work.

 

http://www.naeyc.org/event/challenging-behaviors/highlights

 

You cannot teach a child at 8pm to not bite at 10am. And I still maintain that this daycare is a bad one and a fail. And the suspension is just a symptom of a bigger problem with the daycare and their failure to know how to care for children.

Pretty sure that even NAEYC daycares have policies that will suspend or remove a child that bites repeatedly after no other options (redirecting, shadowing etc) are successful in stopping the behavior.

 

Daycares do not have to keep or enroll certain kids. It's not a right to be able to have one's kid in a certain daycare. If a daycare is unreasonable about what behaviors it will not accept, that will quickly become apparent because no one will be able to enroll or keep their kids there and they will not run a solvent business. I, personally, would prefer a center with a strict policy on biting other kids and for some parents it doesn't matter. But I wouldn't have any expectations that a center take my child unconditionally because group care requires a certain amount of assimilation, even from toddlers. In fact, that assimilation is what people say my kids are missing out on by not being in a group care setting. If they are missing out on the relative normality of biting and being bitten I'm rather okay with that I guess.

[KungFuPanda]

Daycare is a business and the staff is often poorly paid even if they're talented. In the younger ages they will keep the kids clean, fed, and generally happy. They'll also provide some environmental stimulation that will be written in the brochure to sound like Baby University. It's just stories and play and, done well, that really is great for most kids.

 

If there is a serious, recurrent behavior problem that is outside the norm for their group, it can be MUCH easier for them to fire the kid and sell that slot to a non-biter. There's a limit to the amount of time they'll put into one kid and I PROMISE you that they do not believe this is a daycare-specific issue.

 

It seems odd to me that biting is a suspendable toddler offense. In any group I'm guessing you're gonna have a biter to train. Still, parents of bitten children may transfer to another daycare. It's better for the bottom line to drive out the biter with repeated, inconvenient "suspensions."

[Bluegoat]

The mom chose the daycare environment.  It's possibly not working for the child.  Maybe the toddler would do better with an auntie or grandma type for another year or so.  I had to pull my kid out of school and make a change because of him acting out.  He was getting a rep as the bad kid at age 6.  It really was the best decision we ever made for him. 

 

Do I think it would be great if there were more and better  and more affordable options for kids that don't fit into a nice neat box?  Absolutely. 

 

I just don't get saying this is the daycare's problem, that they should deal if this has been a repeated and ongoing issue.  That is the time to step back and decide if a more holisitic change would be helpful.  This might be a very stressed toddler.  I don't think it's at all out of line for a time out and regroup.  Parenting is hard.   12 kids in one room is not a set up to allow for a parental level of shadowing and involvement. 

 

That's kind of my point though - a daycare environment with 12 kids in a room is not appropriate for a two-year old, if they are not even able to deal with normal two-year old behaviour.  

 

The idea that the mom can fix this in the time the kid is out is bizarre.  You don't stop a 2 year old biting by talking about it and reading books.  You do it one of two ways: figuring out what is triggering it and avoiding those scenarios somehow.  Or catching it in the moment and using negative reinforcement.  And always using positive reinforcement when the child is behaving as desired.

 

The mom is not going to be able to do these things with the child at home.

 

If we had  one year old kids  in daycare - which many are - and we saw that the daycare set up wasn't able to accommodate normal behaviour for a one year old, we'd say that they were set up in a way that was inappropriate - they should not claim to be able to care for that age group.  

 

You don't send your 1 year old to such a place and they say - oh, take your kids home until he can stop putting stuff in his mouth - we don't have the ability to watch out for that.  We only take the one year olds who are already beyond that.  It would be totally weird, and obviously not a safe environment.

 

There are abnormally aggressive two year olds, but that doesn't seem to be the case here, based on what the OP is saying.  But what I really do not get is what they expect her to do in that one week.  Possibly being home he will forget about it, but in all likelihood he'll go back and nothing will have changed, and they will still be unwilling to do what needs to be done to manage his normal behaviour.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Bluegoat

[TravelingChris]

I used daycare a bit when my kids were younger. Only my oldest was in daycare fulltime for about a year and a half from 1.75 to 3. When I was looking at daycares, I found some really bad ones including at least one national chain. I went with more expensive care situations that were not chaotic and much more calm. I don't know what happened to biters in any of the daycares I used full or part-time. My kids didn't have biting issues and I think only my son was bit once. I would have had an issue of there was repeated biting of him.

 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[EmseB]

Daycare is a business and the staff is often poorly paid even if they're talented. In the younger ages they will keep the kids clean, fed, and generally happy. They'll also provide some environmental stimulation that will be written in the brochure to sound like Baby University. It's just stories and play and, done well, that really is great for most kids.

 

If there is a serious, recurrent behavior problem that is outside the norm for their group, it can be MUCH easier for them to fire the kid and sell that slot to a non-biter. There's a limit to the amount of time they'll put into one kid and I PROMISE you that they do not believe this is a daycare-specific issue.

 

It seems odd to me that biting is a suspendable toddler offense. In any group I'm guessing you're gonna have a biter to train. Still, parents of bitten children may transfer to another daycare. It's better for the bottom line to drive out the biter with repeated, inconvenient "suspensions."

So the victims of the biting should be the ones to leave if they don't like being bitten? And the only reason a daycare would remove a biter is because of their bottom line? Not the safety or welfare of the other kids?

 

Biting *once* is usually not an offense that would get a kid punished. It is when it happens repeatedly and the daycare can no longer be liable for an injury cause by a known biter, and the child is biting in situations where even constant supervision would not prevent it. A parent with a kid in daycare is not paying for a 1:1 ratio or a nanny. Group care is not always suitable for all kids. Group daycare has limitations. The daycare is responsible to keep everyone safe within a group care environment.

Edited September 24, 2017 by EmseB

[fairfarmhand]

 

 

 

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[EmseB]

You don't send your 1 year old to such a place and they say - oh, take your kids home until he can stop putting stuff in his mouth - we don't have the ability to watch out for that. We only take the one year olds who are already beyond that. It would be totally weird, and obviously not a safe environment.

Right. What do daycares do in order to keep kids from choking on objects that are inappropriate for them to mouth and are known dangers? They remove those things from the environment or keep them away from the kids. What you're failing to recognize is that the biter is the cause of the unsafe environment for the other kids, not the daycare.

 

If someone is a known biter, that's the same type of danger to other kids as having a choking hazard around. If the daycare knows about the repeated bites, they are liable for any injuries caused. Just like if they know theres marbles sitting out and a kid chokes...they are considered negligent, especially if they saw a kid put marbles in his mouth on more than one occasion. No one thinks it's nuts to keep the marbles away from the other kids. Somehow keeping the biter away is beyond the pale.

 

I think the 1:12 ratio is a bit of a red herring because I don't think that's legal anywhere for toddlers, but even if you have one person completely in charge of a known biter it is still extremely difficult to stop a bite unless you have a ton of experience knowing what to look for. It can happen in a split second, and not even be very apparent until someone is crying. And parents using a group daycare are not even paying for 1:1 care.

Edited September 24, 2017 by EmseB

[SKL]

Yes, let's be honest, some kids will bite even when their watchful mothers are looking right at them.

 

In my location, I think the adult-to-child limit is 1:8 until age 2.5 or 3, and then it's 1:12, but the daycare can decide not to move a child up if he isn't ready for 1:12.

 

I put my kids in daycare around age 2.5.  I don't remember them ever being bitten, nor were they "biters."  One time, though, the carer told me with surprise that my kid had "tried to bite" someone who "tried to do something to her."  I wasn't sure what to make of that, since my kid wasn't a biter before or after.  But maybe it meant they were skilled enough to know when a kid seemed "about to bite" another kid and stop it before it happened?  (She was in a 1:12 room FWIW.)

 

My reaction (after I got over my shock and horror) was to take my kid home, ask her what happened, and use dolls to model acceptable behavior for that situation.  My kid was verbal enough that we could practice a verbal defensive response to other kids' attacks.  I think she was a young 3 at the time.  I never got another report of her being physical in daycare.  Not sure if that would work on a 2yo boy, but it might be worth a try.

Edited September 24, 2017 by SKL

[catz]

 

 

The idea that the mom can fix this in the time the kid is out is bizarre.  You don't stop a 2 year old biting by talking about it and reading books.  You do it one of two ways: figuring out what is triggering it and avoiding those scenarios somehow.  Or catching it in the moment and using negative reinforcement.  And always using positive reinforcement when the child is behaving as desired.

 

 

I really don't think "fixing" a toddler in the week is the point. This is a way for the daycare to gently fire the family.  I'm guessing it's their protocol to have a warning system before pulling the plug. I think this toddler is telling mom this daycare situation is not working for him.

[Bootsie]

My children were not biters (as far as I know), but both experienced being bit by other children (and not necessarily in a daycare situation).  In those situations, it seemed to upset the adults around more than it did my kids.  How often is a biting incident serious?  Personally, I do not know of an instance of serious harm, but maybe it is more common to cause real harm than I realized. 

 

I did have a friend whose 4 year old came it and said "Molly hurt my teeth!"  The mother went to check on the one year old to find out what happened and found the 4 year olds teeth marks clearly on the one year olds arm.   

[rose]

Maybe there's a business opportunity here. Someone needs to start a day care for all the expelled biters. You could call yourself "Biter's Daycare: bite or be bitten". Something catchy like that should work.  :P

[Catwoman]

It is not that simple. My 8 year old has just been expelled from school for losing his temper. He is borderline ASD and becomes overwhelmed easily. The new principal simply decided he didn't want to deal with his needs. There is nothing I can do to prevent him becoming upset at school. I can't stop kids teasing him, I can't control the noise and I can't give him to the support he needs. If it had happened even 2 months earlier it would have meant financial ruin. Her kid bites. It may only happen at daycare. Ds10 came home with enough bites to suspect it is pretty common - and no I didn't get stressed about it because mostly he couldn't remember getting them anyway.

But just because you didn't get stressed because your child came home with bite marks on several occasions doesn't mean that other parents shouldn't be upset about it when it happens to their children. Biting hurts, and it can also be scary for the child who is bitten.

 

I'm very sorry to hear about your son. I don't know what the solution should be. I also think there is a big difference between a child getting angry and a child physically hurting other children.

 

Are school principals legally allowed to expel a child from school without offering a different school as an option?

[Catwoman]

A week without daycare may mean not paying rent or eating. When you live pay to pay having to pay two lots of childcare for the week (and she will be paying the place he is suspended from) or taking a week off can wreck your finances for months not to mention causing crippling stress.

 

 

And why on earth should the childcare centre not care. Caring for kids and by extension their families is what they are there for. If you don' genuinely care about all the kids you should change careers.

 

Eta. I must learn to multi quote.

I absolutely understand what you're saying and I do sympathize with the mom. But the mom's financial situation isn't the daycare's problem. It just isn't. The daycare's responsibility is to take care of the children and ensure their safety.

 

When a child is biting other children, the daycare staff sometimes have to make the difficult decision to remove that child from their center, either temporarily or permanently. And I'm not sure why people seem to be assuming that the staff at the daycare center hasn't tried to teach this particular child not to bite. Perhaps this is not a new behavior and the staff has done everything they can in order to prevent this little boy from biting the other kids, but he's still biting, and the staff can't spend all day watching this one child's every last movement to make sure he doesn't bite anyone.

[kiwik]

But just because you didn't get stressed because your child came home with bite marks on several occasions doesn't mean that other parents shouldn't be upset about it when it happens to their children. Biting hurts, and it can also be scary for the child who is bitten.

 

I'm very sorry to hear about your son. I don't know what the solution should be. I also think there is a big difference between a child getting angry and a child physically hurting other children.

 

Are school principals legally allowed to expel a child from school without offering a different school as an option?

He can get aggressive when angry. They do have to find another school but ds8 doesn't handle change that well and he is traumatised enough at this point. Actually it is not the end result that makes me angry it is that they didn't make use of the resources they can access and I can't until too late despite the fact that I did all the stuff I could do to make it possible for them to apply for them - I got referrals, assessments and recommendations from the authorities and they didn't act on those recommendations. If they had and it hadn't helped I would be sad but not angry.

 

The daycare centres here (NZ) have to have a 1:5 ratio for under 2 and 1:10 for over but the centres I used had 1:4 and 1:8 which made it easier to watch. They also encourage free and active indoor and/or outdoor play about 90% of the time which probably helps active children keep calm.

Edited September 25, 2017 by kiwik

[Bluegoat]

Right. What do daycares do in order to keep kids from choking on objects that are inappropriate for them to mouth and are known dangers? They remove those things from the environment or keep them away from the kids. What you're failing to recognize is that the biter is the cause of the unsafe environment for the other kids, not the daycare.

 

If someone is a known biter, that's the same type of danger to other kids as having a choking hazard around. If the daycare knows about the repeated bites, they are liable for any injuries caused. Just like if they know theres marbles sitting out and a kid chokes...they are considered negligent, especially if they saw a kid put marbles in his mouth on more than one occasion. No one thinks it's nuts to keep the marbles away from the other kids. Somehow keeping the biter away is beyond the pale.

 

I think the 1:12 ratio is a bit of a red herring because I don't think that's legal anywhere for toddlers, but even if you have one person completely in charge of a known biter it is still extremely difficult to stop a bite unless you have a ton of experience knowing what to look for. It can happen in a split second, and not even be very apparent until someone is crying. And parents using a group daycare are not even paying for 1:1 care.

 

But kids aren't items you pick up off the floor.  They are people, the people you are supposed to be serving.

 

If you are equipped to care for a two year old you need to be ready for two-year old behaviour.   It's more like the daycare saying they don't have the staff to keep the floor picked up to keep the babies from eating stuff.  Or a hospital throwing out a mental patient because he acts crazy.

 

Ratios are not the same as kids per room - I suspect this is part of the problem.  Kids in a room of 12 or even 24 kids with two or three teachers may be according to regulation, but in the end it isn't the same as a kid in a room with 5 others.  And often you see all the kids together outside in a play areas - 30 or more.  No matter how many supervisors, that is hard to see what is gong on, and it's an environment likely to create stress in the kids too.

 

 I don't think 1:1 care is really going to be necessary - many people have more than one child at home, and manage biting behaviour.  Things like appropriate room sizes, stable groups, perhaps multi-aged groups, stability having the same caretakers over the whole time rather than switching, all would tend to make for a better environment for dealing with difficult but normal behaviours.

[Bluegoat]

I really don't think "fixing" a toddler in the week is the point. This is a way for the daycare to gently fire the family.  I'm guessing it's their protocol to have a warning system before pulling the plug. I think this toddler is telling mom this daycare situation is not working for him.

 

I totally agree that it is a way to fire the toddler.  It's kind of on the passive-egressive side though, as far as that goes.  It makes it seem like it's the kid's fault, not the daycare which is inadequate.

 

I think a lot of those kinds of daycare options aren't good for many kids - even the ones that don't bite suffer more quietly.  But it comes out of the same problem which is not a great environment for kids - and not just kids with unusual needs.

 

To me, that's a significant problem.  saying that it's ok to manage it like this to me is normalizing that system.

[Catwoman]

He can get aggressive when angry. They do have to find another school but ds8 doesn't handle change that well and he is traumatised enough at this point. Actually it is not the end result that makes me angry it is that they didn't make use of the resources they can access and I can't until too late despite the fact that I did all the stuff I could do to make it possible for them to apply for them - I got referrals, assessments and recommendations from the authorities and they didn't act on those recommendations. If they had and it hadn't helped I would be sad but not angry.

The daycare centres here (NZ) have to have a 1:5 ratio for under 2 and 1:10 for over but the centres I used had 1:4 and 1:8 which made it easier to watch. They also encourage free and active indoor and/or outdoor play about 90% of the time which probably helps active children keep calm.

It sounds like you have every reason to be angry! You followed all of the rules and you did everything possible to qualify your son for the resources he needed, and the school completely dropped the ball and didn't do what they should have done, and now you and your son are paying the price for their negligence.

 

Is there any way to go over the principal's head and get a higher authority to help you?

 

I'm so sorry this is happening to your son. It's just terrible. :(

[EmseB]

But kids aren't items you pick up off the floor. They are people, the people you are supposed to be serving.

 

If you are equipped to care for a two year old you need to be ready for two-year old behaviour. It's more like the daycare saying they don't have the staff to keep the floor picked up to keep the babies from eating stuff. Or a hospital throwing out a mental patient because he acts crazy.

 

Ratios are not the same as kids per room - I suspect this is part of the problem. Kids in a room of 12 or even 24 kids with two or three teachers may be according to regulation, but in the end it isn't the same as a kid in a room with 5 others. And often you see all the kids together outside in a play areas - 30 or more. No matter how many supervisors, that is hard to see what is gong on, and it's an environment likely to create stress in the kids too.

 

I don't think 1:1 care is really going to be necessary - many people have more than one child at home, and manage biting behaviour. Things like appropriate room sizes, stable groups, perhaps multi-aged groups, stability having the same caretakers over the whole time rather than switching, all would tend to make for a better environment for dealing with difficult but normal behaviours.

I suspect we will have to agree to disagree. I also think we're maybe talking about two different scenarios, because I'm talking about the daycare trying many different things and the child continuing to bite other kids despite normal precautions and measures being taken. Not kicking out a kid after one incident, which, as you point out, is normal behavior.

 

 

 

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a daycare to manage a child that repeatedly bites by saying, "we are unable to ensure everyone's safety because your child bites others without warning and we can't provide the direct supervision s/he needs to stop biting."

 

Again, a daycare is under no obligation to take any particular child, biting or no, so it makes sense to me that they would have a policy on biting or other behavior that endangers other kids. I understand you don't agree.

[Pen]

What is the situation in some countries where, I presume, "daycare" is relatively more the norm for everyone? Do they have better ways to handle biting?  Or where a company provides onsite daycare for workers?

 

My nephew bit another child on first day of daycare, but, apparently as I heard about it, his "teacher" got down at his level and told him very firmly NO! and You  Must Not Ever Bite Anyone Again--and that worked.

[catz]

I totally agree that it is a way to fire the toddler.  It's kind of on the passive-egressive side though, as far as that goes.  It makes it seem like it's the kid's fault, not the daycare which is inadequate.

 

I think a lot of those kinds of daycare options aren't good for many kids - even the ones that don't bite suffer more quietly.  But it comes out of the same problem which is not a great environment for kids - and not just kids with unusual needs.

 

To me, that's a significant problem.  saying that it's ok to manage it like this to me is normalizing that system.

 

I suspect if the toddler gets a week 1-1 with mommy and possibly a better fitting day care option eventually he doesn't feel like a loser in the deal. 

 

I'm the last person who would try and normalize the institutionalization of children as it stands today.  I pulled my kid out hastily from school in first grade and haven't looked back.  He's a college bound junior.   I certainly didn't feel it was my child's fault when I had to make that decision.  But plenty of the adults in the building were probably happy to see him go other than his test scores.   I hope the mom from the OP feels the same way.  Young toddlers shouldn't be in classrooms.  But yet they exist and seem ok for some kids.  Kids acting out repeatedly are very often trying to send a message.

 

I'm very glad my kids never did full time day care at this age and I know that is a privilege to have that as an option. 

 

[wonderchica]

Re: child care ratios, here in NC legally you can have 1:6 until 2, then 1:10 until 3, then 1:15.

[Elizabeth86]

I suspect if the toddler gets a week 1-1 with mommy and possibly a better fitting day care option eventually he doesn't feel like a loser in the deal.

 

I'm the last person who would try and normalize the institutionalization of children as it stands today. I pulled my kid out hastily from school in first grade and haven't looked back. He's a college bound junior. I certainly didn't feel it was my child's fault when I had to make that decision. But plenty of the adults in the building were probably happy to see him go other than his test scores. I hope the mom from the OP feels the same way. Young toddlers shouldn't be in classrooms. But yet they exist and seem ok for some kids. Kids acting out repeatedly are very often trying to send a message.

 

I'm very glad my kids never did full time day care at this age and I know that is a privilege to have that as an option.

I totally agree I dont think daycare is best for kids. She really just doesnt have any options. She barely has daycare as an option. She has a few people she can count on from time to time, but no steady helpm

[KungFuPanda]

So the victims of the biting should be the ones to leave if they don't like being bitten? And the only reason a daycare would remove a biter is because of their bottom line? Not the safety or welfare of the other kids?

Biting *once* is usually not an offense that would get a kid punished. It is when it happens repeatedly and the daycare can no longer be liable for an injury cause by a known biter, and the child is biting in situations where even constant supervision would not prevent it. A parent with a kid in daycare is not paying for a 1:1 ratio or a nanny. Group care is not always suitable for all kids. Group daycare has limitations. The daycare is responsible to keep everyone safe within a group care environment.

That's not what I said. I said that from this daycare's perspective, they'd rather NOT risk the non-biters leaving. If you have to choose, you encourage the easier kid to stay and drive the difficult one out. With that kid gone, the other kids are safer, liability is lessened, and they've opted out of all the steps it takes to protect the kids while teaching the biter not to bite.

[EmseB]

That's not what I said. I said that from this daycare's perspective, they'd rather NOT risk the non-biters leaving. If you have to choose, you encourage the easier kid to stay and drive the difficult one out. With that kid gone, the other kids are safer, liability is lessened, and they've opted out of all the steps it takes to protect the kids while teaching the biter not to bite.

Oooor, they've tried all the steps and nothing has worked because the problem is that the kid doesn't do well in group care.

 

I think driving kids out is a bit of emotionally loaded language. I'm sure a daycare would rather figure out how to keep the client they have and stop the biting rather than not have the income.

Edited September 25, 2017 by EmseB

[Bluegoat]

Oooor, they've tried all the steps and nothing has worked because the problem is that the kid doesn't do well in group care.

 

I think driving kids out is a bit of emotionally loaded language. I'm sure a daycare would rather figure out how to keep the client they have and stop the biting rather than not have the income.

 

Many daycares have waiting lists.  They can choose to take the easier kids and punt the ones who would mean more work.

[Bluegoat]

I suspect we will have to agree to disagree. I also think we're maybe talking about two different scenarios, because I'm talking about the daycare trying many different things and the child continuing to bite other kids despite normal precautions and measures being taken. Not kicking out a kid after one incident, which, as you point out, is normal behavior.

 

 

 

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a daycare to manage a child that repeatedly bites by saying, "we are unable to ensure everyone's safety because your child bites others without warning and we can't provide the direct supervision s/he needs to stop biting."

 

Again, a daycare is under no obligation to take any particular child, biting or no, so it makes sense to me that they would have a policy on biting or other behavior that endangers other kids. I understand you don't agree.

 

Maybe that is what happened - it's not what always does, though.  I've known parents where biting was just an automatic out.

 

I think the thing is, there is really no reason for daycares to take the high road and actually try and accommodate kids who are more difficult, or give adequate management to be able to do that.

 

What do parents with 4 to 6 kids at home do when one goes through a real biting stage?  It happens.  People don't seem to think it's some terrible dangerous issue.

[Guest]

What is the situation in some countries where, I presume, "daycare" is relatively more the norm for everyone? Do they have better ways to handle biting? Or where a company provides onsite daycare for workers?

 

My nephew bit another child on first day of daycare, but, apparently as I heard about it, his "teacher" got down at his level and told him very firmly NO! and You Must Not Ever Bite Anyone Again--and that worked.

Just to be fair, the kids who stop biting after one firm correction? Not the ones getting dropped from daycare. Some kids are a lot tougher to manage than others.

[fralala]

Wow, it made me feel old when I recalled a study on preschool expulsions and Google revealed that it was published over 10 years ago. But it's pertinent: Pre-K Students Expelled at More Than Three Times the Rate of K-12 Students

 

An interesting quotation from the lead author of the study: "When teachers reported having access to a behavioral consultant who was able to provide classroom–based strategies for dealing with challenging student behaviors, the likelihood of expulsion was nearly cut in half.â€

 

It is a sad fact that most preschool/daycare teachers-- like most parents!-- are not properly educated in managing unwanted behaviors. That's why we get the hot sauce advice. There's actually really good research on what works with kids, and daycare would seem an excellent place to apply the research, since we can't require parents to receive accreditation! But it's also a problem that daycare workers receive so little respect and social support; if you go into a career because you have a passion for it, you are more likely to be enthusiastic about the opportunity to guide little kids to be their best (and keep up-to-date on the latest social research re: things like biting and intervention!), especially if you receive gratitude from society as a whole for helping socialize our littlest citizens. We don't necessarily need "behavioral consultants", just a little more information/education.

 

One thing I have observed, both as a parent aware of my own missteps and working in a preschool classroom, is that many times the perception of the adult plays as crucial a role-- or perhaps the more crucial role-- in understanding the behavior of children as the actual behaviors. And when I'm feeling frazzled, disrespected, and underpaid, you bet I don't want to be around a kid who is having a bad day or a bad week, nor do I want to be responsible for fixing it.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Maybe that is what happened - it's not what always does, though. I've known parents where biting was just an automatic out.

 

I think the thing is, there is really no reason for daycares to take the high road and actually try and accommodate kids who are more difficult, or give adequate management to be able to do that.

 

What do parents with 4 to 6 kids at home do when one goes through a real biting stage? It happens. People don't seem to think it's some terrible dangerous issue.

1. Accommodating would mean change of venue and increase in personnel - basically changing everything that makes daycare cheap. IOW, if the setting was too stressful for the child, "accommodate" means building on a less overstimulating space with far fewer people in it would probably resemble high quality childcare or a home). Who pays for that?

 

2. It's not the high road when it doesn't even help the child. High road as in "continue giving parents an affordable place to warehouse him" gets mom thru to another day without missing work, which can be crucial to family survival, but she is going to have more problems down the road.

 

3. In a family, if there's a biting problem, you don't have to go thru hep B and HIV testing for both children if the bite breaks the skin. And the ratio is one, sometimes two, to four or six, and the environment can actually be more controlled to react to children's needs, and parents are motivated if they're the ones with the child and can give that attention. Serious apples to oranges, comparing the family home to a daycare.

[SKL]

 

What do parents with 4 to 6 kids at home do when one goes through a real biting stage?  It happens.  People don't seem to think it's some terrible dangerous issue.

 

Kids of various ages who are siblings are a different issue: 

1) the horrified parent of the biter is the same as the horrified parent of the bitten child.  Way less stress on the caregiver.

2) biting is a phase that is usually age-specific and short-lived.  But in a room full of 2yos, unchecked biting is likely to be copied by others and become an epidemic.  In a typical family home, you don't have a roomful of kids who are all at the age when biting can become a habit.

[SKL]

The other thing is that the natural thing to do to a kid who can't stop biting is to keep him away from potential victims.  But I don't think it's even legal, let alone ethical or developmentally sound, to isolate a young child for long time periods.  Even ignoring the cost of having supervision for one child apart from his normal group.

[Catwoman]

Maybe that is what happened - it's not what always does, though. I've known parents where biting was just an automatic out.

 

I think the thing is, there is really no reason for daycares to take the high road and actually try and accommodate kids who are more difficult, or give adequate management to be able to do that.

 

What do parents with 4 to 6 kids at home do when one goes through a real biting stage? It happens. People don't seem to think it's some terrible dangerous issue.

But the daycare centers might be trying. Why do you assume that they're not doing their best to accommodate difficult kids? I doubt that most daycare centers would expel a child for a single offense. I'm sure they work with kids every day who are misbehaving in one way or another, but when a child has a history of biting other children and who isn't responding to the workers' attempts at correcting that behavior, the daycare center may have no other viable option but to suspend or expel that child.

 

And even if they would like to keep that child at the center, they may not be able to afford to pay additional workers to supervise the biting child as closely as is necessary. If the centers have to keep hiring extra workers, they will have to raise their prices accordingly, and many parents wouldn't be able to afford those increases.

[EmseB]

Many daycares have waiting lists. They can choose to take the easier kids and punt the ones who would mean more work.

 

How do they know from a waiting list which kids are "easier"? How do they know which kids will and won't bite?

 

And now we're just getting into ridiculous minutae of possible scenarios.

 

I don't even use daycare. If I did I'd prefer one set of policies re biting and you'd prefer another. To each their own.