CC Challenge A and struggling...

[staceyobu]

My daughter started Challenge A this year.  She is super smart and has always been fairly motivated to get through her work.  I observed two separate challenge A classes last spring and felt like it would be a good fit for her and a good way to provide her some community.

 

She is enjoying the class days, but the work at home is killing us.  This was a short week with Labor Day and 5 math lessons are assigned.  So, she had to do two lessons two separate days.  Math takes her forever.  The Latin is taking an hour plus and she is dreading it. The geography is extremely hard to figure out where to start and seems like a daunting task. She is just sitting in front of a map of Canada and crying.

 

I'm hoping it's just the first few weeks and she will figure out how to get in the swing of things. I know her age may be a factor in her general apathy. I just feel like I handed over all control to my schedule and curriculum to someone else and now I'm sorta regretting it.  They tell parents to scale, but I also don't want to fall behind two weeks in.  I mean, if we slow down on math now, she will be behind the next 28 weeks. Or, if we fall behind in Latin, she will not understand what is going on in class the rest of the year. 

 

I've been reading other stories online but everyone seems to say their child loves it and had an amazing year. Am I crazy?  

[ondreeuh]

I'm sorry it's such a rough start. One thing I wonder - do you think the reviews you are reading are a fair representation? I know CC can be pick about people "slandering" the company/method, plus maybe the peope who don't like it are just less likely to speak up? Also - people may be motivated to really "talk up" the program if they are trying to recruit more families. Personally, I can't imagine that that kind of inflexibility would work for most kids.

 

Can you contact someone about the geography - clarify what to do? What about asking them to assign less work on a holiday week?

 

I think a huge reason that CC is not very popular on the board is because most of us like to customize education. It sounds like you are having to fit your DD into a box. :(

Edited September 2, 2017 by ondreeuh

[staceyobu]

They can't assign less work on holiday weeks because the weekly class days are dictated by a schedule that comes from the top down.  So, you are free to not do assignments at home, but lessons 1-5 will still be discussed in class on week 1, lessons 6-10 on week 2, etc.  So, I can get off track and not worry about her participating as much in class, but the MAIN reason I paid is to allow her to discuss with peers!

 

 

 

 

Can you contact someone about the geography - clarify what to do? What about asking them to assign less work on a holiday week?

 

 

 

 

[matrips]

We don't do Challenge and stopped CC a few years back, but my understanding from visiting a couple Challenge As is that everyone does their own math curriculum. You dont have to do Saxon. In the challenges I saw, they just do math problems or kids bring in some, or cover terms etc in class.

For geography, have you looked at the ArtK12 mapping books? I just bought the series for my kids and it tells you exactly where to start and what to draw next etc. it was 45 pages just to cover the mainland of Canada. Next week we're adding in the islands. It's done in a way to help you remember the steps on your own with a few practices. I've had my kids mapping different parts of the world each year and this is he easiest its ever been.

The Latin is a lot. Most folks I know add in more resources. I think Magistra Latin is one site that has books that go along with Henle and makes it more manageable. I could be slightly wrong on the name but google and see.

[Lori D.]

:grouphug:  

 

No personal experience with CC, and not a fan of the program/materials for a number of reasons, but that doesn't mean it's not a good fit for others. :) So take the rest of what I say with a grain of salt. ;) With that said...

 

Any time you transition to a very different way of doing things, it is an upheaval, and there is apt to be stress (and tears), and time needed for adjusting to the new routine. This isn't much different than if your DD were attending a brick-and-mortar school, and had to adjust to assignments, homework, a schedule and new expectations.

 

So first thing: be gentle with yourselves, and realize it's going to take a good 2 months or so to get used to your new materials, new schedule, and new routine/way of schooling -- not just the in-class days, but also of how to "do" CC at home.

 

General ideas:

While I support the idea of moving students towards independence, I don't think you can just toss a student into the deep end of starting a new program like CC at age 11-12, and expect that the student will develop the tools for independent working overnight. I really do think most students require a LOT of scaffolding and guidance into HOW to study and work independently, and some students really don't "click" with this until INTO high school -- like 10th or 11th grade, for some. So it takes gentle, patience and consistency as the parent/teacher to guide your student into independence throughout 7th and 8th grades for sure... JMO! :)

 

Also JMO: one hour is a VERY long time for a middle school student to focus steadily on a single subject, esp. if it is a subject that is difficult for the student or disliked by the student. (Research is coming out that shows that even adults work better for longer when they work in concentrated "bursts" that are a bit less than 1 hour, followed by a short break.)

 

For a middle schooler, I'd suggest doing the difficult subjects that require a lot of brain power by working in a focused block of 35-40 minutes, then take a 10-15 minute break. Make sure that a protein snack and movement (like a quick jog to the corner and back, or jumping on a mini-trampolene) is part of the break, to feed the brain and get the blood flowing. Then take 20-30 minutes to finish the subject -- OR, if your student would do better by moving to something new and having that second shorter session after lunch, then switch to a different subject (something that is not so hard/intensive for the student) before tackling the next subject that is difficult or requires a lot of brain power. Handle that subject in a similar way: 35-40 minutes of hard focus, 10-15 minute break, then finish with a shorter 20-30 minute second session (or do that second shorter session after lunch).

 

A very different idea: my DS#2 had mild LDs in Spelling, Writing, and Math (esp. the abstract math concepts such as Algebra). In high school, we discovered he actually did much better at getting through the dreaded Math by putting it LAST in the day. This is based on Dianne Craft's explanation of students who have "blocked learning gates" only have so much "brain battery energy" in a day for ALL of the school work. If you use up ALL of the energy early in the day on their hardest subject, they have nothing left for the rest of the day/rest of the subjects; also, they tend to try and conserve some of that "brain battery energy", knowing it has to last them all day -- so they only feel "safe" doling out just a little energy for each subject, rather than fully focusing on each. By moving the hardest subject last, they can use their brain battery energy freely earlier in the day on all the other subjects, knowing that once the hard subject is done, they are DONE for the day, and so they are relaxed about using ALL their brain battery energy, knowing they don't have to try and keep some in reserve for later.

 

All that to say: you might consider moving the Math to the end of your day, work for 45 minutes, and whatever gets done is great, and just loop the rest of the lesson to the next day. Will DD be "behind"? Maybe. But the CC tutor is there to answer questions, so DD can ask the questions of where SHE is in the math, and not worry about where anyone else in the math. And even if she is "behind", she'll be seeing the tutor's explanations of topics coming soon to her math lessons, so it's just a preview of coming attractions, which might end up making things somewhat familiar to her (and therefore less difficult) when she gets there. Key to this is helping DD relax and not worry about where she is in the Math in relationship to the other students. It's NOT a race; by the end of the school year, everyone finishes the text -- look, at that, we're all in the same spot! ;)

 

Latin:

From what I see on the CC website, you do not go over the entire text of Henle 1 in Challenge A. Challenge B starts over at the beginning of Henle Latin 1 and reviews. Even if it takes DD a while to get used to studying this foreign language, eventually she'll start figuring it out -- and she'll get to review right off the bat at the start of next year (if you continue with CC). Knowing that might help take some of the stress off of DD. :) The Family Style Schooling blog has some ideas for supplementing or supporting Henle 1 for Latin; perhaps some of those ideas might help your DD, or be an explanation of the concepts that clicks better for her.

 

Another place to give DD and yourself an extra big dollop of grace. Learning a foreign language is HARD -- new vocabulary words, vowel conjugations, and Latin has declensions. And from what I can see of Henle, it's also about learning Grammar -- and your DD may not be familiar with the Grammar concepts being taught in Henle from her past Grammar programs -- so really a whole second subject on TOP of the memorizing vocabulary and conjugations, etc.

 

Math:

What was DD using last year for Math? Was that working well for her? If so, I'd recommend going back to that and do the Pre-Algebra. (It looks like Challenge A uses Saxon 8/7, which is Pre-Algebra.) And then DD can just bring in questions from her own program for extra help on CC class days.

 

Frankly, if a student struggles with Math or dislikes Math, regardless of what CC was using, I absolutely would make sure to find the program that was the best fit for that student's learning style and understanding for Pre-Algebra and Algebra 1, because those topics are absolutely foundational for understanding and doing well with high school Maths. You do NOT want to be in the position of the student being fuzzy on Pre-Algebra and Algebra 1, because it leads to increasing Math struggles in the rest of high school, and it sometimes means having to back up and re-do.

 

Geography:

Well, if not given any direction as to what I'm supposed to learn or how to go about it, I'd stand in front of a map of Canada and cry too. ;) Totally agree with Ondreeh -- get some specific info from CC about WHAT you're supposed to be learning, and ideas of HOW to go about it. "Learn Canada geography" doesn't cut it. And for memorization work -- I'd do that WITH DD. Memorize the provinces and capitals together and quiz each other in 5 minutes of practice each day.

 

But I'd also be thinking hard about how to give DD some context. JMO, but I don't think most students learn Geography without a reason or "big picture" for caring, or a visual or hands-on way of making this distant country more tangible, or having some way of making a "mental hook" for information about the country you're studying. How about adding some variety to the learning mix:

- 10 minutes/day of online geography games (Sheppard Software; CG Kids Map of Canada Puzzle; etc.)

- make a traditional food; listen to traditional music of the nation; play a traditional game

- hit your library for a picture book of traditional myths, or short children's non-fiction about the country/people

- read a historical/cultural fiction book set in the country as a family read-aloud (Anne of Green Gables is set in Nova Scotia!)

- make a lapbook about the country; here's one for Canada; or make your own -- a paragraph about the most interesting facts to DD about each province)

 

What about doing Mapping the World By Art assignments during the week -- pick the ones that match up with whatever country CC is studying.

 

Also really like matrips geography suggestion in the post above. :)

 

 

Again,  :grouphug: to help you this rough patch of transition, and hope that you'll quickly be able to make some tweaks to make this work for you. Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Lori D.

[Angie in VA]

I haven't said it yet this school year, so here goes. 

 

I  just  :001_wub:  Lori D.!

 

 

 

[Wildwood]

I don't think you are crazy.  The workload is kind of ridiculous.  We started Ch. A this year and I am so far feeling like I probably made the wrong decision.  I mainly enrolled my daughter because she wanted to.  She wanted the organization and the community time.  I would imagine the student eventually gets into a groove and learns how to keep up with the weekly schedule, but I think the joy of learning is pretty much lost in the process. For my daughter, anyway. My daughter feels like she is just making her way through a checklist and most days she's just wiped out and unmotivated.

 

Anyway, that's my rant.  We did get the ArtK12 Canada and Greenland geography book (mentioned above) and that has been very helpful for my daughter.  With Latin...I won't allow it to go past an hour and won't allow it to take over and make my daughter overwhelmed.  I told her just do the assignments as written, and if they stick a little that's great.  If not, then we move on and call it good.  I look at it as a cursory run through Latin and that's it.  I'm not concerned about mastery at all at this point.  Latin just doesn't rank high enough over here for us to get overwhelmed by it.

We do a different math than the scheduled Saxon.  So, it seems to me you could do math on your own schedule and not worry about the pace of the class.  Our tutor pulls problems from the warm-up section from Saxon and my daughter just goes along with it even though she uses a completely different math program.

[Wildwood]

Lori D. is such an encourager!  Makes me feel  bad for being such a downer in my post ;)

[Lori D.]

...Makes me feel  bad for being such a downer in my post ;)

 

Oh, Wildwood! I *loved* your post! I think you are being very realistic. And you have REAL experience in your post, and some great ideas for how to mentally approach the Latin, and how to realistically do the Geography and Math!

 

I know you're feeling the joy has been sucked out of homeschooling right now, but I do think a lot of that is just getting used to the new way of working. And 7th/8th grades really ARE a step up in workload and exhausting. 9th grade is another big step up in the workload, and it, too, takes time to adjust to.

 

That's one of the downsides of going with CC, is that you can't ramp up *slowly* like you can with all doing-it-at-home -- we were able to start with 3 subjects the first week, then add another subject or two the second week, and finally be up to full workload by the end of week 3 of our school year. With CC, you're going 0 to 60mph straight off of the starting line. I'm sure it will all settle in, and you'll have a good year! Yes, different. But good in it's own way! Hugs, Lori D.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Lori D.

[Angie in VA]

Well, I got lost looking at one link Lori D. shared. I'm such a daydreamer: DIY kitchen table, affordable flooring, creative white board alternative, etc., but, hey, OP, look here

 

https://familystyleschooling.com/2016/05/16/cc-challenge-years/

 

and

 

https://familystyleschooling.com/2015/08/26/10-ways-to-prepare-for-challenge-a/

 

 

Disclosure: we used some CC materials at home in the elementary years and attended some 3 day seminars/camps in the summer, but never enrolled in CC or any other co-op for that matter. 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2017 by Angie in VA

[Mrs Twain]

This is what I use to teach my kids to draw all the countries in the world and the 50 states.  I recommend it to all my friends who do Challenge A.  It is a very simplified way of drawing the countries/continents, and for Challenge A I think it would take about 15 minutes per day at the most.

 

http://map-of-the-whole-world.weebly.com

 

You can try something for free (I don't know what they have as their free download right now), and you can buy the whole program (PDF's) for $14.99.  It has been a great program.  I did it together with my eldest, and now we both can draw the whole world.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Mrs Twain

[MeganW]

The geography is extremely hard to figure out where to start and seems like a daunting task. She is just sitting in front of a map of Canada and crying.

 

I can't help with the rest, but the geography I have a GREAT suggestion for!

 

My kids have done REALLY well with this series:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Draw-Canada-Greenland-Kristin-Draeger/dp/1517193311/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1504404374&sr=8-5&keywords=artk12

 

My only complaint is that they don't have any gridlines, so I always make a copy of the final page of the book, and then with Sharpie draw in some lines (major ones like Equator and Prime Meridian if possible, but if no significant lines are there, I just make some up).  I then put my copy with the black lines behind each page of the book and trace the lines in.  It's a pain, but it does make it much easier to get the proportions right.

[Southern Ivy]

I have no experience with CC and especially not with Challenge A. But, I went to the Parent Practicum in July and during one of the sessions, the parents were talking about kids going into Challenge A. They stressed that it's a HUGE change and there is a lot of responsibility given to the student. The moms were saying that they were questioning their decisions and wanted to cry right along with their kids, BUT they all eventually found their groove and the year smoothed out. 

So, if this is what you're wanting to do, I would just continue to coach your child through the first quarter and help her through this learning curve. But, at least, according in the SW Missouri CC groups, you're not alone in this!

[Brenda in FL]

I am a CCer and have had 3 kids go through CH A. The first one is a lot like having your first baby. It seems so time consuming and difficult, but when you have your second, you wonder why you thought it was so hard with the first. Challenge is a lot like that!

 

If your child is 12, keep reminding yourself that it's middle school, the "grades" and courses aren't going on a transcript yet, and that might help to relieve some stress. Remind yourself of why you signed up for CC in the first place and focus on those aspects rather than trying to finish all the workload.

 

Lori D gave some excellent advice!!

 

Work your own pace with math. (It took my daughter, now in CH IV, two years to get through Algebra I!)

 

Keep Latin to under an hour a day. If you don't finish all the exercises, don't worry about it. Review vocab everyday and copy declension endings, and move on to the next assigned lesson each week even if you didn't finish all the exercises. She will repeat those lessons next year, and review them all in CH I.

 

With the new cartography book, I am not sure how geography is now approached. In the past, the maps in the guide weren't very user friendly so I found black line maps on line that my child copied and labeled everyday. We used the Shepard software each day as well to drill the countries and capitals.

 

Hang in there! And when you both feel like crying, take a break - get outside a take a nap - read a book, and pick up later in the day or the next day. You can do this!

[Brenda in FL]

I also want to say that I totally agree with those that say it's not yet time to let your child loose to plan and hold themselves accountable to the schedule. Depending on how many kids you have, you may have to do that. But now that all my kids are either in high school or graduated, I see the value in trying to keep up with the oldest child especially if you plan to homeschool through high school. The younger kids pick up so much from observing and listening to what their older siblings are doing. And we as teachers are better prepared when it's the younger kid's turn to approach those difficult subjects.

[UnsinkableKristen]

We just quit Challenge B yesterday.  DD13 and I were *miserable*.  We started CC because I thought it would be helpful to not have to plan the curriculum for once, DD would get time with peers and time to discuss, and she would be challenged.  What ended up happening was me modifying everything, me realizing I didn't agree with the educational philosophy that underpinned the lesson plans, DD getting frustrated every week because she was interested in the material but it moved so fast she never got to dig in and LEARN.  It was all box checking.  

 

So we quit and I feel FREE.  I'm sure there are people to whom this program is geared (some of my best friends are those people) but it was awful for us.  In fact, after I hung up with our Tutor, DD ran around the house yelling "DOBBY IS A FREE ELF."  :D 

[ScoutTN]

 Right there with ya.  :grouphug:

 

I'm not a CC person, but my 12 yo Dd has some outsourced classes for the first time this year and she needs the scaffolding that Lori suggests. We are working together using her planner to keep track of what she needs to do. I am helping her learn how to organize her time. Very Socratic, asking questions rather than saying, "Do it this way." That would not go over well.  ;)  I cannot help you with the specifics of curriculum because we use different materials, but I heartily second the breaks for exercise and snacks, and experimenting with study schedules. Keep in mind that this is a process, a journey, and we are helping them to establish good habits and learn skills that they will use for years to come. Do the next thing. Don't panic. Make sure she eats right, gets some exercise and good sleep.  

 

Middle school is a weird time. Hormones, brain fog, major growth spurts. Some of the drama would be inevitable, no matter how you educate.  :svengo:

 

 

 

[2_girls_mommy]

:grouphug:  

 

No personal experience with CC, and not a fan of the program/materials for a number of reasons, but that doesn't mean it's not a good fit for others. :) So take the rest of what I say with a grain of salt. ;) With that said...

 

Any time you transition to a very different way of doing things, it is an upheaval, and there is apt to be stress (and tears), and time needed for adjusting to the new routine. This isn't much different than if your DD were attending a brick-and-mortar school, and had to adjust to assignments, homework, a schedule and new expectations.

 

So first thing: be gentle with yourselves, and realize it's going to take a good 2 months or so to get used to your new materials, new schedule, and new routine/way of schooling -- not just the in-class days, but also of how to "do" CC at home.

 

General ideas:

While I support the idea of moving students towards independence, I don't think you can just toss a student into the deep end of starting a new program like CC at age 11-12, and expect that the student will develop the tools for independent working overnight. I really do think most students require a LOT of scaffolding and guidance into HOW to study and work independently, and some students really don't "click" with this until INTO high school -- like 10th or 11th grade, for some. So it takes gentle, patience and consistency as the parent/teacher to guide your student into independence throughout 7th and 8th grades for sure... JMO! :)

 

Also JMO: one hour is a VERY long time for a middle school student to focus steadily on a single subject, esp. if it is a subject that is difficult for the student or disliked by the student. (Research is coming out that shows that even adults work better for longer when they work in concentrated "bursts" that are a bit less than 1 hour, followed by a short break.)

 

For a middle schooler, I'd suggest doing the difficult subjects that require a lot of brain power by working in a focused block of 35-40 minutes, then take a 10-15 minute break. Make sure that a protein snack and movement (like a quick jog to the corner and back, or jumping on a mini-trampolene) is part of the break, to feed the brain and get the blood flowing. Then take 20-30 minutes to finish the subject -- OR, if your student would do better by moving to something new and having that second shorter session after lunch, then switch to a different subject (something that is not so hard/intensive for the student) before tackling the next subject that is difficult or requires a lot of brain power. Handle that subject in a similar way: 35-40 minutes of hard focus, 10-15 minute break, then finish with a shorter 20-30 minute second session (or do that second shorter session after lunch).

 

A very different idea: my DS#2 had mild LDs in Spelling, Writing, and Math (esp. the abstract math concepts such as Algebra). In high school, we discovered he actually did much better at getting through the dreaded Math by putting it LAST in the day. This is based on Dianne Craft's explanation of students who have "blocked learning gates" only have so much "brain battery energy" in a day for ALL of the school work. If you use up ALL of the energy early in the day on their hardest subject, they have nothing left for the rest of the day/rest of the subjects; also, they tend to try and conserve some of that "brain battery energy", knowing it has to last them all day -- so they only feel "safe" doling out just a little energy for each subject, rather than fully focusing on each. By moving the hardest subject last, they can use their brain battery energy freely earlier in the day on all the other subjects, knowing that once the hard subject is done, they are DONE for the day, and so they are relaxed about using ALL their brain battery energy, knowing they don't have to try and keep some in reserve for later.

 

All that to say: you might consider moving the Math to the end of your day, work for 45 minutes, and whatever gets done is great, and just loop the rest of the lesson to the next day. Will DD be "behind"? Maybe. But the CC tutor is there to answer questions, so DD can ask the questions of where SHE is in the math, and not worry about where anyone else in the math. And even if she is "behind", she'll be seeing the tutor's explanations of topics coming soon to her math lessons, so it's just a preview of coming attractions, which might end up making things somewhat familiar to her (and therefore less difficult) when she gets there. Key to this is helping DD relax and not worry about where she is in the Math in relationship to the other students. It's NOT a race; by the end of the school year, everyone finishes the text -- look, at that, we're all in the same spot! ;)

 

Latin:

From what I see on the CC website, you do not go over the entire text of Henle 1 in Challenge A. Challenge B starts over at the beginning of Henle Latin 1 and reviews. Even if it takes DD a while to get used to studying this foreign language, eventually she'll start figuring it out -- and she'll get to review right off the bat at the start of next year (if you continue with CC). Knowing that might help take some of the stress off of DD. :) The Family Style Schooling blog has some ideas for supplementing or supporting Henle 1 for Latin; perhaps some of those ideas might help your DD, or be an explanation of the concepts that clicks better for her.

 

Another place to give DD and yourself an extra big dollop of grace. Learning a foreign language is HARD -- new vocabulary words, vowel conjugations, and Latin has declensions. And from what I can see of Henle, it's also about learning Grammar -- and your DD may not be familiar with the Grammar concepts being taught in Henle from her past Grammar programs -- so really a whole second subject on TOP of the memorizing vocabulary and conjugations, etc.

 

Math:

What was DD using last year for Math? Was that working well for her? If so, I'd recommend going back to that and do the Pre-Algebra. (It looks like Challenge A uses Saxon 8/7, which is Pre-Algebra.) And then DD can just bring in questions from her own program for extra help on CC class days.

 

Frankly, if a student struggles with Math or dislikes Math, regardless of what CC was using, I absolutely would make sure to find the program that was the best fit for that student's learning style and understanding for Pre-Algebra and Algebra 1, because those topics are absolutely foundational for understanding and doing well with high school Maths. You do NOT want to be in the position of the student being fuzzy on Pre-Algebra and Algebra 1, because it leads to increasing Math struggles in the rest of high school, and it sometimes means having to back up and re-do.

 

Geography:

Well, if not given any direction as to what I'm supposed to learn or how to go about it, I'd stand in front of a map of Canada and cry too. ;) Totally agree with Ondreeh -- get some specific info from CC about WHAT you're supposed to be learning, and ideas of HOW to go about it. "Learn Canada geography" doesn't cut it. And for memorization work -- I'd do that WITH DD. Memorize the provinces and capitals together and quiz each other in 5 minutes of practice each day.

 

But I'd also be thinking hard about how to give DD some context. JMO, but I don't think most students learn Geography without a reason or "big picture" for caring, or a visual or hands-on way of making this distant country more tangible, or having some way of making a "mental hook" for information about the country you're studying. How about adding some variety to the learning mix:

- 10 minutes/day of online geography games (Sheppard Software; CG Kids Map of Canada Puzzle; etc.)

- make a traditional food; listen to traditional music of the nation; play a traditional game

- hit your library for a picture book of traditional myths, or short children's non-fiction about the country/people

- read a historical/cultural fiction book set in the country as a family read-aloud (Anne of Green Gables is set in Nova Scotia!)

- make a lapbook about the country; here's one for Canada; or make your own -- a paragraph about the most interesting facts to DD about each province)

 

What about doing Mapping the World By Art assignments during the week -- pick the ones that match up with whatever country CC is studying.

 

Also really like matrips geography suggestion in the post above. :)

 

 

Again,  :grouphug: to help you this rough patch of transition, and hope that you'll quickly be able to make some tweaks to make this work for you. Warmest regards, Lori D.

I have found this to be true of moving a harder subject to later this year. Always before I wanted to try to get them done before lunch and before the energy of the day ran out. What was happening was the subjects that aren't tough weren't getting done at all or very often. So this year I moved a lot of things we were doing in the afternoons to the mornings to start the day off right, and it is working so much better. The kids know they have to get math and latin done daily. Now they get the lighter things in too, and still get the tougher thing done. It went against how I thought things would work. I just found this by trial and error!