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Middle schoolers at community college


mysticmomma
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We have had the opposite experience. The higher-level math teachers at the high school were lousy, but the math professors at the CC were excellent. I have a close friend who is the head of the math dept. at a state university and she was furious when she saw what the high school calculus teacher was sending home for assignments.

Agree! There's a reason that AP calculus scores are being accepted at fewer schools than they used to. Even our local directional state school doesn't give credit for Calc 2 and expects 4 or better to get Calc 1 credit. High school teachers just aren't nearly as qualified and/or do not have the opportunity to teach an equivalent curriculum.

 

Many AP students have never done delta-epsilon limit derivations. For business calc, that's fine, but for science and math, it is abominable.

 

I do understand that there are some atrocious CC's out there, in which case you'd be comparing substandard to atrocious. I guess substandard beats atrocious.

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Mine were 15 and 17 when they started cc. Students 16 and under had to have permission from the professor. She never had a problem getting it. If your kid is academically and emotionally ready and can handle adult talk, then it's fine. Our kids were always in the top 3 students in each of their classes. They thought it was easy.

 

I wouldn't send a non-driving kid again. I drove middle daughter for a semester and it was really annoying. We were 10 or 15 minutes away, depending on whether or not we made all the lights. I still had youngest at home to homeschool, so it was a pain to drop everything and drive the middle kid. Oldest and middle had different schedules, of course.

 

If your kid still needs you for things like dealing with teachers, turning things in, signing up for classes, sorting out deadlines, etc. then they're not ready. I did 2 things: went to the mandatory minor student counselor session and sign consent for my minor student to take classes. My kids did everything else themselves. They looked up and signed up for classes, got their books, turned things in, contacted professors as necessary, paid with our debit card for college expenses, the whole thing. If they're not ready to do it without mommy holding their hands, they're not ready to do it at all.

 

Granted it's not just homeschoolers. My middle daughter took a philosophy class where the professor handed out a contract type paper that basically said I won't have my mommy call and and argue with my professor because I'm a grown up. Most students are late teens and twenty somethings in those first two year general ed classes and they had problems with young adult students getting mommy to handle their problems for them.

 

Don't be that homeschooler! This is a secular environment. Expect secular thinking and secular talk. There will be negative talk about different religions and philosophical points of view. There will be other religious points of view. If your kid is going to be upset about that or if you are, don't send them.

 

Only once was middle daughter embarrassed about her age. Her science teacher scolded some lazy students who couldn't contribute anything to the discussion because they obviously hadn't been keeping up with readings and assignments. He said, pointing to her, "Maybe I should just ask the 15 year old. She always knows the answer and she always get the assignments done. " She wanted to die for being dragged into it.

 

Once in an English class everyone had to divide up and group according to age. Someone asked her straight out how old she was. When she told them she got a, "Holy sh!t! You're only 15." by a young man who had paid her some attention. I think he was disappointed she wasn't an adult. At that age she was regularly mistaken for being a late teen because of her demeanor in multiple venues.

I'm also annoyed when the prof would say "the 12 year old knows it. Come on guys", but DS loves that crap.

I try to impress upon him it's a sad commentary on the state of public higher education, not a glowing commentary on him.

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I'm also annoyed when the prof would say "the 12 year old knows it. Come on guys", but DS loves that crap.

I try to impress upon him it's a sad commentary on the state of public higher education, not a glowing commentary on him.

 

I suspect the difference is in being a 15 year old girl who is more likely to understand the potential social consequences to herself of being the person the teacher uses to show a student s/he is performing poorly in front of the class than a 12 year old boy who is less likely to be attuned to such social things. Showing approval of it in any way could set yourself up for negative repercussions. Public humiliation is something people don't take kindly to and being brought into it could possibly set the person brought into it up for some negative repercussions.  That's what I'd point out to my kid if they didn't pick up on it.

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I suspect the difference is in being a 15 year old girl who is more likely to understand the potential social consequences to herself of being the person the teacher uses to show a student s/he is performing poorly in front of the class than a 12 year old boy who is less likely to be attuned to such social things. Showing approval of it in any way could set yourself up for negative repercussions. Public humiliation is something people don't take kindly to and being brought into it could possibly set the person brought into it up for some negative repercussions. That's what I'd point out to my kid if they didn't pick up on it.

Yes, your kid is totally more attuned to social repercussions of being on a college campus than my kid, and you have clearly thought this through more than I have :)

I was trying to be helpful to the OP, not enter into a discussion.

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In January, it will be 20 years that I've been teaching at the community college level. Both schools I work for are very strict that you must be 16, so it wouldn't be an option at all here. About a decade ago they allowed the professor to decide, but no longer. 

 

As others have said, you have to keep in mind that it's an adult environment no matter what class you take. I wouldn't send a teen unless they were mature enough to handle that. I get the reports that list the people on probation, pediphiles, etc. in my classes. I've had students who stopped coming, and I later found out that they stopped because they were in jail for assaulting a college employee. It really isn't that different that way than public high school here, but you have to keep in mind who is also going to school. My oldest was fine with "whatever," but I limited my younger one with dual enrollment. 

 

Anything in the humanities may have more adult content, even languages. It depends on what text they choose and how the professor presents it. I've heard of Spanish professors assigning Telemundo episodes that offended some of the homeschoolers who were using the college Spanish class for dual enrollment.The one my daughter has is more careful that way.

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Yes, your kid is totally more attuned to social repercussions of being on a college campus than my kid, and you have clearly thought this through more than I have :)

I was trying to be helpful to the OP, not enter into a discussion.

 

I thought it was good example to the OP and other readers of how non-academic skills like social awareness can potentially have an effect in an academic setting like a cc.

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Many people are adding their stories about how well their 15 yos are doing de, but I do think there is a significant difference between 12 and 15.

 

I also realize some 12 yos do thrive in de as these post illustrate. But, I don't think the stories about how well a 15 yo are doing are directly applicable to a 12 yo.

 

Interesting discussion and many of us ponder these questions. Has OP come back and explained if her dd is truly a prodigy whose needs can't be met any other way or if she was just looking for some exposure to Spanish? I tried to keep up with the thread but I don't remember seeing that.

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I thought it was good example to the OP and other readers of how non-academic skills like social awareness can potentially have an effect in an academic setting like a cc.

It's a good example to the OP that there are all kinds and what is true about your kid isn't true about mine and it's not all owing to his lack of social skills.

Of all the things my DS could be accused of, this one makes me 😂.

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When I was 16, working long hours and taking a full college load, telling men who assumed I was much older that I was 16 made them run (literally run). 

 

This is pretty much how my husband handled girls hitting on him when he was in the Davidson Scholars Program at University of Washington. He'd be sure to drop his age in conversations on occasion. He was tall enough to pass for older and is very handsome, even now. But he couldn't even drive yet. He took the bus -- lots of students take the bus there. So he just made sure that his age came up when situations came up.

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Interesting discussion and many of us ponder these questions. Has OP come back and explained if her dd is truly a prodigy whose needs can't be met any other way or if she was just looking for some exposure to Spanish? I tried to keep up with the thread but I don't remember seeing that.

 

 

No, she hasn't - I'm not sure if we've overwhelmed/intimidated her or if she's just been busy.

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Mine started CC as a 11yo and is now a 14yo university freshman. When I sought out this path it was not about dealing with a prodigy. It was about serving a need for my child to learn with more freedom and lower cost (we are in CA where CC units are either free or you can choose a full time option for $46 per unit). And as my child was considered an adult, we did not have teachers giving my child unwanted advice about what he can and cannot do.

 

My suggestion is to remember and mark these two words: drop dates.

 

Yes, you will need to take into account the following:

  • Fees
  • Maturity and executive function skills
  • Ability to navigate an adult environment
  • Will you be driving her there daily? At my kiddo's CC, foreign language classes often met daily
  • Facility with the language
  • Prof's reviews on rate my professor
  • Safety of campus (ours was tucked neatly in a relatively safe residential area)
  • The fact that grades will follow her from now on

BUT...there is such a thing as a drop date when she can drop the class without a fee (and a later date when she can drop it with a fee and without incurring a W as well as possibly another date when she can drop it but will incur a W...one or two Ws don't hurt kids very much unless they have a track record of performing very poorly all the time).

 

I like taking risks when it is obvious that my child needs me to BUT only after careful research. If your research shows that this could work I would give it  a try. I would not do it if I cannot monitor the situation closely though. Good luck!

Edited by quark
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I thought it was good example to the OP and other readers of how non-academic skills like social awareness can potentially have an effect in an academic setting like a cc.

I don't get it. Should a child not respond in a class with a correct answer because he must think in advance that maybe his teacher will point out his age and shame the older students with it??? I really don't get how his is the lack of social awareness for a student. Maybe it's more of a lack of social awareness on the part of a teacher?

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Many people are adding their stories about how well their 15 yos are doing de, but I do think there is a significant difference between 12 and 15.

 

I also realize some 12 yos do thrive in de as these post illustrate. But, I don't think the stories about how well a 15 yo are doing are directly applicable to a 12 yo.

 

Interesting discussion and many of us ponder these questions. Has OP come back and explained if her dd is truly a prodigy whose needs can't be met any other way or if she was just looking for some exposure to Spanish? I tried to keep up with the thread but I don't remember seeing that.

 

Very much depends on the 12yo and 15yo.  I know plenty of 20yo's who can't compete with some 15yo's!

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I don't get it. Should a child not respond in a class with a correct answer because he must think in advance that maybe his teacher will point out his age and shame the older students with it??? I really don't get how his is the lack of social awareness for a student. Maybe it's more of a lack of social awareness on the part of a teacher?

 

I took the example/post to which you're referring to mean that the child's response to being used by the professor to shame other students is where social awareness/unawareness comes in. I don't think any child/teen could predict that type of behaviour from a professor. I thought of it as (italics are likely responses, not saying that any particular child would respond that way): 

 

Child A responds to many questions correctly, and the professor shames older students by bringing up Child A's age. Child A takes this as positive reinforcement, and begins answering even more questions to show off their knowledge and further impress the professor. 

 

Child B responds to many questions correctly, and the professor shames older students by bringing up Child B's age. Child B recognizes that they have been used to make other students feel badly, and feels for those students in addition to being somewhat embarrassed. Child B remembers to be careful to give other students a chance to answer, not to show up other students, to be encouraging to struggling students, etc.

 

I would consider Child B to be more socially aware, which would likely lead to a more mature response. My 15yo would be Child B. I'm not sure he would have been at 12. 

 

* Child A and Child B do not refer to anyone in this thread's child. Could also be called Adult A and Adult B. 

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I took the example/post to which you're referring to mean that the child's response to being used by the professor to shame other students is where social awareness/unawareness comes in. I don't think any child/teen could predict that type of behaviour from a professor. I thought of it as (italics are likely responses, not saying that any particular child would respond that way):

 

Child A responds to many questions correctly, and the professor shames older students by bringing up Child A's age. Child A takes this as positive reinforcement, and begins answering even more questions to show off their knowledge and further impress the professor.

 

Child B responds to many questions correctly, and the professor shames older students by bringing up Child B's age. Child B recognizes that they have been used to make other students feel badly, and feels for those students in addition to being somewhat embarrassed. Child B remembers to be careful to give other students a chance to answer, not to show up other students, to be encouraging to struggling students, etc.

 

I would consider Child B to be more socially aware, which would likely lead to a more mature response. My 15yo would be Child B. I'm not sure he would have been at 12.

 

* Child A and Child B do not refer to anyone in this thread's child. Could also be called Adult A and Adult B.

You're assuming a lot here, including that "shaming" is effective (lol) and that a kid that noted what the teacher did is somehow taking the bait and applying for teacher pet of the year position. Those you lay out are not the only two possible outcomes, and I think it's silly I have to point this out.

In any event,child A may not need to be socially aware because she's not on campus to make friends and influence people. And of the things that keep me up at night, my child being cornered in a dark alley owing to superior knowledge of the subjonctif doesn't rank high...

Edited by madteaparty
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I took the example/post to which you're referring to mean that the child's response to being used by the professor to shame other students is where social awareness/unawareness comes in. I don't think any child/teen could predict that type of behaviour from a professor. I thought of it as (italics are likely responses, not saying that any particular child would respond that way):

 

Child A responds to many questions correctly, and the professor shames older students by bringing up Child A's age. Child A takes this as positive reinforcement, and begins answering even more questions to show off their knowledge and further impress the professor.

 

Child B responds to many questions correctly, and the professor shames older students by bringing up Child B's age. Child B recognizes that they have been used to make other students feel badly, and feels for those students in addition to being somewhat embarrassed. Child B remembers to be careful to give other students a chance to answer, not to show up other students, to be encouraging to struggling students, etc.

 

I would consider Child B to be more socially aware, which would likely lead to a more mature response. My 15yo would be Child B. I'm not sure he would have been at 12.

 

* Child A and Child B do not refer to anyone in this thread's child. Could also be called Adult A and Adult B.

See, I don't see it that way. If there is any lack of awareness here, it's on the part of the teacher. She shouldn't be the one using a child's age to point anything out.

A child/student needs to answer questions and raise his hand as the class permits. He shouldn't be the one worriying about the feelings of older adaults who happen to not bother doing their work. That's why a parent pays often outrageous tuition so a child can participate and learn. Are you seriously implying a child should stop participating to spare the feelings of older learners? 😳

And if the kid comes home and feels good about being the one who know the most, good for him. He worked hard. He isn't the one pointing out his age here. He is just doing his job, his homework.

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Very much depends on the 12yo and 15yo.  I know plenty of 20yo's who can't compete with some 15yo's!

 

Of course it depends.  IT always depends.  But there is such a thing as not seeing the forest for the trees.

 

As a general rule, there is major development that happens between the ages of 12 and 15 with regard to the kinds of skills that would be important in a cc environment.  Abstract thought improves, self-control, organizational skills, social skills, and more.  It' one of the age variations where you see siblings or friends that go along pretty well at earlier ages will drift apart a bit, at least for a while.  Most 15 year olds are old enough to babysit for long periods and are about to be old enough to drive, they may date.  Many 12 year olds have never ridden the bus alone.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to say that a lot more kids at 15 will be able to manage than at 12, and that anecdotes about 15 year olds aren't that useful in suggesting how likely it is that 12 year olds might manage well.

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Guys, I think the point about the kid raising his hand was just that a younger kid not getting that it is awkward is likely because his social development is lower than the older kid at 15.  Maybe especially with girl boy difference as well.  Nothing really to do with what his appropriate response should be or whether the teacher was wrong to say anything in the first place.

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Guys, I think the point about the kid raising his hand was just that a younger kid not getting that it is awkward is likely because his social development is lower than the older kid at 15. Maybe especially with girl boy difference as well. Nothing really to do with what his appropriate response should be or whether the teacher was wrong to say anything in the first place.

Ugh. This kid never raised his hand in the first place. This is absurd. There are reasons 12 year olds don't belong on college campuses. This is about the very least of those. Edited by madteaparty
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See, I don't see it that way. If there is any lack of awareness here, it's on the part of the teacher. She shouldn't be the one using a child's age to point anything out.

A child/student needs to answer questions and raise his hand as the class permits. He shouldn't be the one worriying about the feelings of older adaults who happen to not bother doing their work. That's why a parent pays often outrageous tuition so a child can participate and learn. Are you seriously implying a child should stop participating to spare the feelings of older learners? 😳

And if the kid comes home and feels good about being the one who know the most, good for him. He worked hard. He isn't the one pointing out his age here. He is just doing his job, his homework.

 

I completely agree that the professor is in the wrong in this situation. I have been in classes where teachers have pointed out the student who is doing well in order to make other students feel badly, and it is not right. 

 

I don't think that the child should stop participating. It would be a shame if a professor's comment had that effect. I just think that all students should consider the feelings and needs of other students in the class when gauging how much, when, and how to participate in a classroom. If you feel differently, I do see the value in the argument in your post and don't need to debate this point. 

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 I just think that all students should consider the feelings and needs of other students in the class when gauging how much, when, and how to participate in a classroom.

 

As a professor, I very strongly disagree with this. I want my students to participate as much as they can.

I want them to raise their hand to answer when they think they know the answer, because that gives me valuable feedback. It is still my prerogative to choose whom to call, and a good instructor will try to involve many students.

I want my students to ask questions and not worry how other students feel about them asking questions and "wasting" class time; again, it is my responsibility to judge whether answering the question is feasible, or whether the answer has to be deferred until after class.

It is the instructor's responsibility to manage the classroom dynamics. It is absolutely not the students' responsibility to hold back with both their knowledge and their questions because of other students' feelings. I expect that adults are capable of reacting like adults. 

 

This argument smacks very much of middle school, when my DD was told to her face "Dumb down a bit, you make us look stupid". Attitudes like this have no place in a college classroom.

Edited by regentrude
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Many people are adding their stories about how well their 15 yos are doing de, but I do think there is a significant difference between 12 and 15.

I also realize some 12 yos do thrive in de as these post illustrate. But, I don't think the stories about how well a 15 yo are doing are directly applicable to a 12 yo.

Interesting discussion and many of us ponder these questions. Has OP come back and explained if her dd is truly a prodigy whose needs can't be met any other way or if she was just looking for some exposure to Spanish? I tried to keep up with the thread but I don't remember seeing that.

I understood that the OP wanted her kid to have some language classes under her belt so she be on track with other rising 9th graders who could begin high school in Spanish II or higher. The prodigy thing came out of left field.

 

Our CC actually has some homeschool-specific classes. These are non-credit courses that serve school-aged homeschoolers. Some things are just hard to do at home or without a group. It's cheaper to pay for a CC chemistry course, than it is to set it up yourself. Language classes are also better left to experienced teachers. Lots of homeschoolers plan to attend high school and would be in the same boat as the OP's daughter. It would be worth approaching the language department and asking if they have a homeschool class or if they're willing to form one if the interest is there.

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Of course it depends.  IT always depends.  But there is such a thing as not seeing the forest for the trees.

 

As a general rule, there is major development that happens between the ages of 12 and 15 with regard to the kinds of skills that would be important in a cc environment.  Abstract thought improves, self-control, organizational skills, social skills, and more.  It' one of the age variations where you see siblings or friends that go along pretty well at earlier ages will drift apart a bit, at least for a while.  Most 15 year olds are old enough to babysit for long periods and are about to be old enough to drive, they may date.  Many 12 year olds have never ridden the bus alone.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to say that a lot more kids at 15 will be able to manage than at 12, and that anecdotes about 15 year olds aren't that useful in suggesting how likely it is that 12 year olds might manage well.

 

My DE kid was not ready in 7th (and the first semester in 9th when she started at the CC had a definite learning curve) but I do know a number of others who were ready in middle school. It's definitely an individual thing and I trust parents to know their own children far better than any of us could.

 

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As a professor, I very strongly disagree with this. I want my students to participate as much as they can.

I want them to raise their hand to answer when they think they know the answer, because that gives me valuable feedback. It is still my prerogative to choose whom to call, and a good instructor will try to involve many students.

I want my students to ask questions and not worry how other students feel about them asking questions and "wasting" class time; again, it is my responsibility to judge whether answering the question is feasible, or whether the answer has to be deferred until after class.

It is the instructor's responsibility to manage the classroom dynamics. It is absolutely not the students' responsibility to hold back with both their knowledge and their questions because of other students' feelings. I expect that adults are capable of reacting like adults. 

 

This argument smacks very much of middle school, when my DD was told to her face "Dumb down a bit, you make us look stupid". Attitudes like this have no place in a college classroom.

 

I do value your experiences, and I think in a classroom like yours it is to every student's benefit to participate as much as they are able. I just think that depending on the class size, structure, and climate, maintaining a classroom dynamic can either be the professor's responsibility entirely, or a shared responsibility between the professor and students. In your classroom, the structure allows you to easily limit students' participation to a level that allows every student an equal opportunity to learn. In other classrooms, that might not be the case. 

 

Apart from a handful of introductory classes, my college classmates and I weren't required to raise our hand and wait to be called on. We were welcome to ask questions, answer questions, and share opinions/interpretations/experiences as they related to the lecture. In this setting, if a student felt the need to ask 20 or 30 questions in a single lecture, quickly answer all of the professor's questions before the other students had a chance, or share everything that popped into their brain, it would be difficult and awkward for the professor to keep the class on track. In my first year or two, there were a few instances of this, with students attempting to have a one-on-one conversation or debate with the professor, or by making long-winded, semi-relevant comments. By the time we got to upper-level classes everyone had learned to share the air in the room, so to speak.

 

I think you may have read more into the statement you quoted than I intended, because I absolutely don't believe in bright students being "dumbed down" or hiding their knowledge or skills. I feel that by students carefully considering what and how to add to the class, the level of the class actually increases quite a bit

 

I only took two physics courses in college, but from what I remember I either knew the answer to the professor's question and raised my hand, or I didn't. Whether I gave the answer or the guy next to me did so didn't make any difference. In arts/humanities courses, everyone could come up with an answer to most question, and if we'd all participated as much as possible we would have been there all day. Instead, if I felt like I had an insightful, important, or especially interesting answer, I shared it with the class. Otherwise, I listened to the insightful/important/interesting responses from my classmates, and I suspect we all learned a lot more that way. 

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 my child being cornered in a dark alley owing to superior knowledge of the subjonctif doesn't rank high...

 

You're overstating it.  My point was about the child's possible unawareness of the situation-misreading a bad situation (teacher using one's child's success to shame another student for his or her failures) as good (the child interpreting the situation as praise for himself.) When a kid likes people pointing out he's the smart kid, he could have a hard time veiling his facial expressions or other body language or vocal tone to conceal his inner satisfaction or pleasure as the teacher points out that he knows more than the older kids. That's social awareness that can matter in those types of situations.  I never said the kid was going to get pummeled, I said there could negative consequences. The child might have a harder time in future group activities in that class with the older teen students.  The shamed student might make snide comments to the child or other students, not liking the kid's smug attitude, might refuse to group up with him during future assignments, intentionally making him feel ostracized.

 

I certainly don't think any student should ever pretend to not know an answer.  It's a reaction to being used to shame someone that's the example of social awareness.  My daughter was appropriately horrified she was being used to shame another student.  She knew it was wrong of the teacher to do, so there was no possibility she would smile or use proud body language in that situation-that could add fuel to fire.  I don't know that your kid did that, but when you said the kid ate that up, it became a real possibility that he might've sent non-verbal signals that he was pleased on some level.  12 year olds aren't known for their forethought and diplomacy during complicated negative social dynamics.  Usually people get a sense of that in their teens through social interactions with peers.

 

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Sorry folks, but some of this debate is downright comical.  Those 12yo kids who belong on a college campus are in the 1 in 10,000+ range.  How many kids have you personally taught?  Interacted with?  How many of those were in the 1 in 10,000+ category?  Ever met one?

 

20-year educators may have never seen one example in their careers.  Anyone with preconceived notions should throw them away, because extrapolation from the norm is not valid here.  You are talking about the tail end of a very long curve - someone who is very much not normal by definition.

 

I dare say you won't find many 12 year old kids in a college setting, but if you were to find the 1 in 10,000 child, odds are fairly good that you will run into them in a college setting, because that's where their peers are, and where they fit right in.  Yep, 12yo girls get creeped on.  We know of a couple such examples.  12yo boys get protected by their peers.  We know of a couple such examples.  By and large, they all really love it - it may be the best educational setting they've ever had.

 

If the OP isn't talking about one of these kids, then a CC may not be feasible at all.  I will not make any such assumptions because there are quite a few of those families on this site.  We like it here.

 

ETA: If you have sincere questions, you'll find many of us are more than happy to discuss what it is like.  It is difficult living on an island not by choice but by social misunderstanding.  Having an opportunity to educate through sharing is a prize we cannot easily walk past.  Just please don't pose the questions as accusations.

Edited by Mike in SA
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I do value your experiences, and I think in a classroom like yours it is to every student's benefit to participate as much as they are able. I just think that depending on the class size, structure, and climate, maintaining a classroom dynamic can either be the professor's responsibility entirely, or a shared responsibility between the professor and students. In your classroom, the structure allows you to easily limit students' participation to a level that allows every student an equal opportunity to learn. In other classrooms, that might not be the case. 

 

Apart from a handful of introductory classes, my college classmates and I weren't required to raise our hand and wait to be called on. We were welcome to ask questions, answer questions, and share opinions/interpretations/experiences as they related to the lecture. In this setting, if a student felt the need to ask 20 or 30 questions in a single lecture, quickly answer all of the professor's questions before the other students had a chance, or share everything that popped into their brain, it would be difficult and awkward for the professor to keep the class on track. In my first year or two, there were a few instances of this, with students attempting to have a one-on-one conversation or debate with the professor, or by making long-winded, semi-relevant comments. By the time we got to upper-level classes everyone had learned to share the air in the room, so to speak.

 

I think you may have read more into the statement you quoted than I intended, because I absolutely don't believe in bright students being "dumbed down" or hiding their knowledge or skills. I feel that by students carefully considering what and how to add to the class, the level of the class actually increases quite a bit

 

I only took two physics courses in college, but from what I remember I either knew the answer to the professor's question and raised my hand, or I didn't. Whether I gave the answer or the guy next to me did so didn't make any difference. In arts/humanities courses, everyone could come up with an answer to most question, and if we'd all participated as much as possible we would have been there all day. Instead, if I felt like I had an insightful, important, or especially interesting answer, I shared it with the class. Otherwise, I listened to the insightful/important/interesting responses from my classmates, and I suspect we all learned a lot more that way. 

 

Yeah, this is similar to my experience as a student.  It was really only in large first year classes that there was much had raising.  After that it was much more like a discussion, and the rules of polite behaviour applied.  Not that people pretended to be dumb, but you were cognizant that others might have something to say, that you didn't always have to be the first person to contribute, that sometimes it was better to sit back and listen, and think.

 

And also - IME the best classes are often ones where the students work to make comments and ask questions of each other, for the benefit of others.  The effort is really directed to the group experience, not an individual experience.

 

There is a certain kind of clueless person who will spend a lot of the on questions and points that are more of private concern and ought to be raised after class, or meant to show they are especially well-read, or just monopolize the discussion.

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Sorry folks, but some of this debate is downright comical.  Those 12yo kids who belong on a college campus are in the 1 in 10,000+ range.  How many kids have you personally taught?  Interacted with?  How many of those were in the 1 in 10,000+ category?  Ever met one?

 

20-year educators may have never seen one example in their careers.  Anyone with preconceived notions should throw them away, because extrapolation from the norm is not valid here.  You are talking about the tail end of a very long curve - someone who is very much not normal by definition.

 

I dare say you won't find many 12 year old kids in a college setting, but if you were to find the 1 in 10,000 child, odds are fairly good that you will run into them in a college setting, because that's where their peers are, and where they fit right in.  Yep, 12yo girls get creeped on.  We know of a couple such examples.  12yo boys get protected by their peers.  We know of a couple such examples.  By and large, they all really love it - it may be the best educational setting they've ever had.

 

If the OP isn't talking about one of these kids, then a CC may not be feasible at all.  I will not make any such assumptions because there are quite a few of those families on this site.  We like it here.

 

ETA: If you have sincere questions, you'll find many of us are more than happy to discuss what it is like.  It is difficult living on an island not by choice but by social misunderstanding.  Having an opportunity to educate through sharing is a prize we cannot easily walk past.  Just please don't pose the questions as accusations.

 

It's really not making unwarranted assumptions to read what the OP actually says.  You're making some pretty big leaps that don't seem to be justified - rather the opposite really - by the evidence.

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It's really not making unwarranted assumptions to read what the OP actually says.  You're making some pretty big leaps that don't seem to be justified - rather the opposite really - by the evidence.

 

But, all the parents who come along after will see the title when searching for info.  I choose not to assume for more than OP's sake.

 

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But, all the parents who come along after will see the title when searching for info.  I choose not to assume for more than OP's sake.

 

 

Yeah, I'm not sure that's very useful.  People are trying to talk about the OPs situation, perhaps generalizing somewhat, and you are talking about something different. You keep telling people they are being silly or making statements that may not apply, when they are probably much more to the point than what you are saying.

 

Threads on a discussion board are not meant to be like a guide book for any parents who happen by later.  The kind of people you are talking about will see from the very first post that this is not likely a discussion about child prodigies entering university at 12, or they will understand in any case that it is limited in particular ways they may or may not find useful.

 

Message boards have a conversational quality to them.  

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My ds started with one math class per semester at 16 years old. He is going to a CC that draws in a lot of high school students. I felt more comfortable with it only because he looks and acts much older and people tend to assume he's over 18 years old anyway. I'm not sure I would send a child who is obviously younger to CC unless they were gifted.

 

 

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The wonderful thing about a conversational thread on the Internet is that people can have different positions without any real consequences.

 

I do recommend not letting resentful thoughts color one's outlook on life. There are much more significant on goings in the world these days than an internet thread.

 

Still, if anyone would like to understand when a 12yo in middle school might make sense, the answers are largely here. Feel free to ask if you would like to have more insight.

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Sorry folks, but some of this debate is downright comical.  Those 12yo kids who belong on a college campus are in the 1 in 10,000+ range.  

 

 

I'm going to estimate that there are plenty of kids in the 1 in 1,000 range (or quite possibly even more common... I have no interest in trying to come up with an accurate cut-off) who could manage academically in a college class at 12yo, but who might or might not be best off in that environment. Have you read the book The Brainy Bunch, for example? The parents are arguing that their kids are pretty normal, which I seriously doubt, but odds are that they're not all in the 1 in 10,000 range either. There are people who try to get their kids into college as early as possible, just for the sake of getting them in as early as possible.

 

Not saying OP is one of those people, to be clear - she's stated that she plans on sending her kids to high school for 9th grade, which is not the kind of thing people who want their kids in college ASAP would do. 

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Sorry folks, but some of this debate is downright comical.  Those 12yo kids who belong on a college campus are in the 1 in 10,000+ range.

  

I'm going to estimate that there are plenty of kids in the 1 in 1,000 range (or quite possibly even more common... I have no interest in trying to come up with an accurate cut-off) who could manage academically in a college class at 12yo, but who might or might not be best off in that environment.

I thought OP was referring to community college. I remembered reading on the education forums of this board that some community colleges have no age restrictions and no test scores are needed for some classes. That is why boardies are sending their young kids to community colleges for those classes.

 

So OP would have to check with her respective local community colleges whether they are welcoming to one and all to take classes there. Some of our local community colleges have summer enrichment classes for school-aged kids for extra revenue. My nearest community college has nothing, my kids have to go to a further away one for summer classes/camps.

 

My serious looking DS12 does get hit on since he is 5'11" (178cm) and gets mistaken for a 12th grader or freshman. He was "carded" at Target because the staff thought he was much older than 12. There was a fruit basket at Target cafe for kids 12 and under to have a free clementine. My small sized DS11 gets asked for age anywhere he goes since people don't believe he is already 11 years old.

 

My further away community college is having an information session for homeschoolers interested in attending classes there. There is no information on their website so we might just go for the 1.5hrs evening session.

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Sorry folks, but some of this debate is downright comical. Those 12yo kids who belong on a college campus are in the 1 in 10,000+ range. How many kids have you personally taught? Interacted with? How many of those were in the 1 in 10,000+ category? Ever met one?

 

20-year educators may have never seen one example in their careers. Anyone with preconceived notions should throw them away, because extrapolation from the norm is not valid here. You are talking about the tail end of a very long curve - someone who is very much not normal by definition.

 

I dare say you won't find many 12 year old kids in a college setting, but if you were to find the 1 in 10,000 child, odds are fairly good that you will run into them in a college setting, because that's where their peers are, and where they fit right in. Yep, 12yo girls get creeped on. We know of a couple such examples. 12yo boys get protected by their peers. We know of a couple such examples. By and large, they all really love it - it may be the best educational setting they've ever had.

 

If the OP isn't talking about one of these kids, then a CC may not be feasible at all. I will not make any such assumptions because there are quite a few of those families on this site. We like it here.

 

ETA: If you have sincere questions, you'll find many of us are more than happy to discuss what it is like. It is difficult living on an island not by choice but by social misunderstanding. Having an opportunity to educate through sharing is a prize we cannot easily walk past. Just please don't pose the questions as accusations.

The op was pretty clear about wanting her child to be able to keep up with typical middle schoolers upon entering high school.

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The op was pretty clear about wanting her child to be able to keep up with typical middle schoolers upon entering high school.

 

And I thought I was clear about 12yos in college not being typical middle schoolers???  There's more than one point being made here.  Talking about the extremes is talking about why typical kids might not want to take that route.  Plus, it lets people know they aren't completely off their rockers for thinking about sending their 12yo kids.  Both can be simultaneously valid talking points. 

 

If the thought process affects your sensibilities, then please ignore my ramblings.

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If you don't want to annoy people, try not to call them comical for remaining on-topic.

Do you realize how insulting it is to AL parents to have 12yo kids lumped into sweeping general classifications?

 

I will not apologize for others' narrow views. It's all on topic. I described views as being skewed. You are being insulting. I refuse to devolve in this direction. I'm out. No more troll feeding.

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The OP asked for experiences. Mosf of what has been shared is opinions based not on actual experience, or even on knowing a kid who has done this. So actual experiences, and knowing what kids who have been successful are like, and supplying that information so parents can judge for themselves if it's something to pursue is OT, but generalizations with no experience are on topic?

 

I don't think a kid wanting to go to high school is at all odd. High school is pictured as this wonderful, perfect, world. If they've never experienced it, they don't know.

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The OP asked for experiences. Mosf of what has been shared is opinions based not on actual experience, or even on knowing a kid who has done this. So actual experiences, and knowing what kids who have been successful are like, and supplying that information so parents can judge for themselves if it's something to pursue is OT, but generalizations with no experience are on topic?

 

I don't think a kid wanting to go to high school is at all odd. High school is pictured as this wonderful, perfect, world. If they've never experienced it, they don't know.

I was an accelerated learner.

 

I had a lousy experience as a middle schooler at a CC (and one of the best ones in the country).

 

The class quality was low, the student quality was low, and I always felt awkward. Actually, my only memories about it are the strong feeling of awkwardness and of waiting for an hour to be picked up when I finished the final an hour early.

 

It was the only solution we could come up with (having finished middle school math and the high school changing its bell schedule so I could no longer take math at the high school) and I am glad we did it but I would do almost anything to avoid it for my kids. My high school math classes were much deeper and more challenging. The students I was with were just in it to get a gen ed requirement out of the way and didn't care about the material. It was also lousy having a 3 hour math class once a week.

 

I got As in both classes.

 

Emily

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The OP asked for experiences. Mosf of what has been shared is opinions based not on actual experience, or even on knowing a kid who has done this. So actual experiences, and knowing what kids who have been successful are like, and supplying that information so parents can judge for themselves if it's something to pursue is OT, but generalizations with no experience are on topic?

 

I don't think a kid wanting to go to high school is at all odd. High school is pictured as this wonderful, perfect, world. If they've never experienced it, they don't know.

 

 

I'm totally lost about where this thread is.

 

But I posted speaking of my own experience. 15yo starting at CC, pretty much full time DE for the rest of high school.

 

I liked it at the time, but altogether, now, I think it was a net negative. Besides the horrid French class I nearly failed, I kept up on the pace and readings fine, and survived reading The Bluest Eye (the main characters were about my age and...spoiler alert! one ends up impregnated by her father).

 

For the truly PG/HG kids, yes, I see the necessity of starting college very early. But there seems to be this popular view in the homeschool world that CC is a great way for all homeschoolers to bypass "government" schools (which isn't even actually true, when you think about it) and "beat the system." Like my own parents who only had Associates degrees from the CC I went to, they didn't really understand that there could be differences in quality in education, and they didn't really value a high quality education anyways. I would have been a lot better off being streamed into a quality and challenging curriculum in middle school and then stacking up the hardest classes at my high school (which offered Latin and Calculus, neither of which I took) and a judicious use of CC for advanced English and History classes. That would have set me up MUCH better for college and Grad school.

 

So that's my actual experience, and why when I hear homeschoolers talk about sending kids, especially quite young and not exceptional kids, to CC I'm like Noooooooo!!!!! Really, even if you have a smart kid, there's probably a better option than just dumping them at CC full-time. And especially if the parents are also laboring under the "homeschooled kids who know how to read should be totally independent!" and also offer zero in the way of study skills, assignment management, and general oversight and encouragement (like, my parents, for example). I understand people also have to think of finances, I get that, but I'm thinking of people who see early CC simply as a way to score a deal and nab a piece of paper, all the while conning their kids out of a good education.

 

That's my experience. YMMV. 

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The OP asked for experiences. Mosf of what has been shared is opinions based not on actual experience, or even on knowing a kid who has done this. So actual experiences, and knowing what kids who have been successful are like, and supplying that information so parents can judge for themselves if it's something to pursue is OT, but generalizations with no experience are on topic?

 

I don't think a kid wanting to go to high school is at all odd. High school is pictured as this wonderful, perfect, world. If they've never experienced it, they don't know.

 

I don't think that's what anyone was objecting to.

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I understand people also have to think of finances, I get that, but I'm thinking of people who see early CC simply as a way to score a deal and nab a piece of paper, all the while conning their kids out of a good education.

My daughter is participating in the local middle college program as a homeschooler.  That is how our local school district feels about the program, I'm conning my kid out of a good education.  She could have been using the daddy Campbell for biology at the high school, and not the baby Campbell taking biology for the second time (after Miller Levine) at the CC (no waiver, so it had to be taken to advance to higher science).  She will probably graduate with an Associates Degree, and with five children, having the state pay for that is beneficial in our situation, but we do see many homeschoolers that could care less what they are taking, and who do move to full-time as soon as possible.  We can do much better with some classes, and choose that option, but I also know that she benefited more from Zoology, and Botany than what I could find otherwise, and taking Political Science during an election was an experience she won't soon forget. :-)  It's like anything else, there are positives and negatives that need to be considered.  

 

For this DD, CC isn't a challenge academically, but with her executive functioning, and social skills, it is the transition she needs to move forward. This program has lots of optional hand holding and study labs, etc. that aren't necessarily available to the general public starting with a required College Success class.  Academically she tested in with her 8th grade ACT, but it would have been a disaster for this child.  We may choose differently for the next child.

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So that's my actual experience, and why when I hear homeschoolers talk about sending kids, especially quite young and not exceptional kids, to CC I'm like Noooooooo!!!!! Really, even if you have a smart kid, there's probably a better option than just dumping them at CC full-time. And especially if the parents are also laboring under the "homeschooled kids who know how to read should be totally independent!" and also offer zero in the way of study skills, assignment management, and general oversight and encouragement (like, my parents, for example). I understand people also have to think of finances, I get that, but I'm thinking of people who see early CC simply as a way to score a deal and nab a piece of paper, all the while conning their kids out of a good education.

 

That's my experience. YMMV. 

 

We pay full price for DE tuition and textbooks - it is very expensive.  But, we feel our dd is getting an excellent education.  She started at 13 taking Spanish with a professor who is a native speaker from Spain with a Ph.D.  He was absolutely excellent and wants to continue mentoring her now that she's completed all of the Spanish classes offered at the school.  We've found that most of the instructors are so dedicated to their students and care about their success.  Currently, dd is 15 and taking two classes at the CC this semester - both with amazing instructors.  Dd loves it there and will go full time starting in her junior year.  

 

As I said earlier in the thread, my older kids went to our state flagship university and all agreed that the instruction at our local CC was, in general, better than what they received at the university.  And the CC close to their university is supposed to be excellent as well - many students take classes at the CC over the summer because they are taught better there than they are at the university.  

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We pay full price for DE tuition and textbooks - it is very expensive.  But, we feel our dd is getting an excellent education.  She started at 13 taking Spanish with a professor who is a native speaker from Spain with a Ph.D.  He was absolutely excellent and wants to continue mentoring her now that she's completed all of the Spanish classes offered at the school.  We've found that most of the instructors are so dedicated to their students and care about their success.  Currently, dd is 15 and taking two classes at the CC this semester - both with amazing instructors.  Dd loves it there and will go full time starting in her junior year.  

 

As I said earlier in the thread, my older kids went to our state flagship university and all agreed that the instruction at our local CC was, in general, better than what they received at the university.  And the CC close to their university is supposed to be excellent as well - many students take classes at the CC over the summer because they are taught better there than they are at the university.  

 

 

My parents enrolled me in the public HS so that DE would be free. They didn't actually want me to take an classes at the HS, we were longtime HSLDA members and were pretty scared of the evil public school. Though, looking back, I thank God I was DE through the PS. My mother was clueless about making a homeshool high school transcript. She's still clueless. Like, really, she has no idea that she could make a transcript or that she even could.

 

Her main goal was to get education over and done with as quickly as possible so that I could get a J.O.B. (yes, spelled out in capital letters). Yes, I got my bachelors when I was 20. But it totally tanked my life chances of getting a job I wanted.

 

It's good that you have a quality CC (mine was not, I went to the local state U 11th and 12th grade and it wasn't much better). But there's no life prize for accelerating out of education as quickly as possible. There really isn't, just so you know.

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My parents enrolled me in the public HS so that DE would be free. 

Her main goal was to get education over and done with as quickly as possible so that I could get a J.O.B. (yes, spelled out in capital letters). Yes, I got my bachelors when I was 20. But it totally tanked my life chances of getting a job I wanted.

 

It's good that you have a quality CC (mine was not, I went to the local state U 11th and 12th grade and it wasn't much better). But there's no life prize for accelerating out of education as quickly as possible. There really isn't, just so you know.

 

We are considering doing the same thing - enrolling dd in PS so DE would be free.

 

We are not using DE to rush through college, and plan on dd taking 4 years or more to finish school after high school graduation.  If she finishes earlier because she wants to, that's fine, but that's not our goal.  We have no idea what college she will eventually attend and if her CC credits will even transfer.

 

One of her older brothers started college with over 60 credits transferred and still took four full years to graduate.  It was fine with us.  He was able to take fewer credits per semester and earn a minor as well because he started with so many DE credits.  

 

I'm sorry that your experience wasn't good and that it ruined your chances of getting the job you wanted.   :grouphug:

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