Rosie Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Anyone had experience with this? I'm looking for suggestions for free online resources that aren't too "young" for an 18 year old who is struggling with the basics (from multiplication and fractions on up). Any other thoughts/ideas are welcome, too! Her mom would like her to be ready to take the ACT at the end of the school year. I own Math Mammoth Blue series 4th-6th, Beast Academy Guides, Singapore 4, CWP 2&3, Primary Grade Challenge Math, and Miquon. I'll pull from all of those, I'm sure. I also have Lial's Prealgebra and Foerster Algebra 1 on the shelf but haven't ever used them with anyone yet. Their family owns Math-U-See blocks, so I'll use those to teach what I can. I know about Khan Academy. My kids like Prodigy for practice but that's going to be too "young" for her. Alcumus will be too difficult. I'm trying to figure out what to give her for homework each week. Suggestions welcome. If you've done something like this before, I'm very interested in hearing about your experience! Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Have you given her a MUS placement test? How does her current level of proficiency compare to her level of instruction? You'd first like to know why instruction with what is generally a good program for kids who struggle (MUS) isn't sticking. You don't know if you're dealing with a math SLD (in which case nothing you own fits possibly) or something else. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted August 24, 2017 Author Share Posted August 24, 2017 (edited) Have you given her a MUS placement test? How does her current level of proficiency compare to her level of instruction? You'd first like to know why instruction with what is generally a good program for kids who struggle (MUS) isn't sticking. You don't know if you're dealing with a math SLD (in which case nothing you own fits possibly) or something else. I haven't begun working with her yet, so no placement tests have been taken! I just sent her mom a message asking why they switched from MUS to Life of Fred. She is currently working through LoF PreA with Physics. All three of the girls in the family (other two are 10th and 8th grade) are in PreAlgebra right now. I know their mom struggles with math, so I'm not sure if it's the instruction that's been lacking or if they all have math learning disabilities. The mom is going to get the 18yo tested soon to see if she can get accommodations for when she takes the ACT/SAT. Would that show whether or not and what type of learning disabilities she has? Why do you think the curricula I own wouldn't work for someone with math learning disabilities? What curricula would you recommend? EDIT: The mom just texted back to say MUS got confusing, and then they had a family issue and just switched to LoF. I guess I'll have to find out more in person once we start tutoring. Edited August 24, 2017 by Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 If they will do the MUS placement tests, that can verify her mastery of the material they've done so far. That will give you some information. If they will go back through the lettered levels, that will let you know if there are things to go back and catch or if she's ready to move forward. Yes, a basic psych eval will include IQ and achievement testing, which can help identify SLDs. If she mastered well what they covered with MUS, I would probably just pick up with MUS and move forward. The board might have brouhahas over it, but reality is it's FINE and would get the child's test scores up. However if she did not *master* what they covered with MUS, then that's going to bring the question why. If the parent was busy and handing it off and there's a lack of instruction, that's different from a math SLD. There actually is some new-ish testing for math SLD, but they look at number sense. Technically SLD math is a number sense disability. So kids could be brilliant at upper level math but still demonstrating a math disability. So even merely seeing low achievement isn't really telling you it's an SLD, because the question is why it's low. Does this dc have ADHD? Why is the mom assuming she'll get accommodations? The writing portion of the tests has faded in popularity, so she might not even need it. She's thinking extra time? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted August 24, 2017 Author Share Posted August 24, 2017 If they will do the MUS placement tests, that can verify her mastery of the material they've done so far. That will give you some information. If they will go back through the lettered levels, that will let you know if there are things to go back and catch or if she's ready to move forward. I'll definitely have her do this. Yes, a basic psych eval will include IQ and achievement testing, which can help identify SLDs. If she mastered well what they covered with MUS, I would probably just pick up with MUS and move forward. The board might have brouhahas over it, but reality is it's FINE and would get the child's test scores up. However if she did not *master* what they covered with MUS, then that's going to bring the question why. If the parent was busy and handing it off and there's a lack of instruction, that's different from a math SLD. I'm fairly certain the mom was working alongside her, but she struggles, too. She said LoF helped her (mom) finally understand fractions. There actually is some new-ish testing for math SLD, but they look at number sense. Technically SLD math is a number sense disability. So kids could be brilliant at upper level math but still demonstrating a math disability. So even merely seeing low achievement isn't really telling you it's an SLD, because the question is why it's low. Would you mind explaining the bolded sentence a little more? Do you mean they can do the procedural algorithms/formulas but don't understand the concepts? Does this dc have ADHD? Why is the mom assuming she'll get accommodations? The writing portion of the tests has faded in popularity, so she might not even need it. She's thinking extra time? The 18yo has dyslexia. That is why the mom is assuming she'll get accommodations. Yes, she wants extra time. I'm not sure about ADHD. Thank you for helping me think through this. :) According to the mom, the daughter is a visual and kinesthetic learner. So I'm counting on the MUS blocks to help a lot. I've used Cuisenaire rods to teach for years, including kids with dyscalculia - though they were elementary age - and I looked through a couple Ronit Bird books when I was making the videos in my signature, so I'm pretty confident that I can help her. I have a friend who teaches high school level math that I can hand her off to if necessary, but it really sounds like the girl is struggling with the foundational basics, so that will have to be dealt with first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 (edited) Struggling with basics, like multiplication and fractions Her mom struggles with math Her mom wants her to take ACT at end of year The combination of factors does not compute for me. Imo, not a realistic goal. Is ACT necessary, or would Accuplacer be a possible choice? ETA How nice to see you here! I taught dd basic math when I homeschooled her in middle school. (Bricks and mortar elementary school had used Everday Math, useless. Everything had to be retaught.)) Math became dd's favorite subject, and your videos were her favorite part! We started using big whiteboards -- though not as big as your table -- and that was a gigantic help, as my dd is a visual learner. Edited August 24, 2017 by Alessandra 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 (edited) My ds has a gifted IQ and one psych described him as math gifted with a math disability. He said to teach him like he's math gifted AND work on the disability, not just assume only the disability. So, for instance, my ds very quickly caught on to negative numbers and could understand equations subtracting positive and negative numbers. Like literally brilliantly quickly. But hand him a new manipulative and he doesn't know 3+8. But that's SLD math plus the other SLDs plus autism. Edited August 24, 2017 by OhElizabeth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted August 24, 2017 Author Share Posted August 24, 2017 Struggling with basics, like multiplication and fractions Her mom struggles with math Her mom wants her to take ACT at end of year The combination of factors does not compute for me. Imo, not a realistic goal. I agree, but I haven't actually met with her yet, so I'm holding off on making judgments too quickly. Maybe the situation is different than I currently think it is. I'll find out in a week! Is ACT necessary, or would Accuplacer be a possible choice? I've never heard of Accuplacer. I'll look into it. Thanks! ETA How nice to see you here! I taught dd basic math when I homeschooled her in middle school. (Bricks and mortar elementary school had used Everday Math, useless. Everything had to be retaught.)) Math became dd's favorite subject, and your videos were her favorite part! We started using big whiteboards -- though not as big as your table -- and that was a gigantic help, as my dd is a visual learner. Thank you for mentioning that! Lots of people use our site but I rarely hear their stories. I'm so glad you found it helpful ad enjoyable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Yes, what Alessandra said is the elephant in the room. Kids can make a lot of progress with good intervention, but there's still just also reality. You have to see how much deficit there is, how deep the holes go, before you have some sense of where she will get to. That's really awkward to say a dc with dyslexia is reading to learn math, hmm. I don't know, just chewing on the irony there. I have the hardwood fractions puzzle from RS, which they no longer make, alas. That thing has been brilliant for my ds. They also just released a new fractions level. I agree a lot of kids, with and without disabilities, proceed forward without really understanding fractions. I have spent a lot of time developing is-ness with my ds on fractions. Like we're obsessively small in our steps with it. Flip over two cards, pick one to show how many parts are in the whole, pick the other to show how many of those parts you have, now lets compare and see who won and talk about it... And we use the hardwood fractions puzzle for it. Day after day after day. He doesn't yet get multiplication and having multiples of something, so he's sort of formative on his equivalent fractions. That's the math SLD showing up or the autism or both, don't know. For him, to have 3 of twos is rocket science. I just slowly keep exposing him. It's formative, like he's starting to get it. It's just not all the way there to be something he can harness. But we haven't done Ronit Bird multiplication. She wanted the bridging more solid, and he's just coming along there. We've done less with math and more with behavior, sigh. Anyways, my ds' hole is so deep and the digging so slow, that my perspective is probably skewed. You're just going to meet her where she is. But yeah, she'd like to be through MUS algebra 1 even to break a 19 on the ACT, I would think. Even with time accommodations, she still has to be able to read it. Or will they read it to her? I mean, it's a big hill. They could consider an extra year of high school... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Accuplacer is the test some CC use. So if her scores are low to get into a university, she can go into a technical college or community college and get remedial level help. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted August 24, 2017 Author Share Posted August 24, 2017 Yes, what Alessandra said is the elephant in the room. Kids can make a lot of progress with good intervention, but there's still just also reality. You have to see how much deficit there is, how deep the holes go, before you have some sense of where she will get to. Yep. I meet with her for the first time next week, so I won't know until then where she's really at. My guess is that it is too much to expect her to take the ACT this year. That's really awkward to say a dc with dyslexia is reading to learn math, hmm. I don't know, just chewing on the irony there. You're talking about Life of Fred, right? I agree. I plan on suggesting something else - just have to decide on what. I have the hardwood fractions puzzle from RS, which they no longer make, alas. That thing has been brilliant for my ds. They also just released a new fractions level. I agree a lot of kids, with and without disabilities, proceed forward without really understanding fractions. I have spent a lot of time developing is-ness with my ds on fractions. Like we're obsessively small in our steps with it. Flip over two cards, pick one to show how many parts are in the whole, pick the other to show how many of those parts you have, now lets compare and see who won and talk about it... And we use the hardwood fractions puzzle for it. Day after day after day. He doesn't yet get multiplication and having multiples of something, so he's sort of formative on his equivalent fractions. That's the math SLD showing up or the autism or both, don't know. For him, to have 3 of twos is rocket science. I just slowly keep exposing him. It's formative, like he's starting to get it. It's just not all the way there to be something he can harness. But we haven't done Ronit Bird multiplication. She wanted the bridging more solid, and he's just coming along there. So Bird suggests having a solid basis in addition/subtraction before moving on to multiplication? I'm trying to decide whether to stick with a mastery approach like that or to introduce all sorts of concepts with the blocks at the same time. I mean, I'm used to introducing kids to things like square numbers and the distributive property and multiplying teen numbers while they're still working on mental math within 100. You can work on the mental math WHILE learning the other concepts with the blocks. Hmmmm.... We've done less with math and more with behavior, sigh. Anyways, my ds' hole is so deep and the digging so slow, that my perspective is probably skewed. You're just going to meet her where she is. But yeah, she'd like to be through MUS algebra 1 even to break a 19 on the ACT, I would think. Even with time accommodations, she still has to be able to read it. Or will they read it to her? I mean, it's a big hill. Yeah, it is. They could consider an extra year of high school... Well, this is her extra year.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted August 24, 2017 Author Share Posted August 24, 2017 Another thing I'm thinking over is whether there are some topics that are okay to skip over and, if so, what they are. I'm so used to teaching every tiny little thing to mastery. But does she really need to know how to add 99 (or 98 or 199) in her head? Is it alright to help her understand the long multiplication and long division algorithms and why they work but not go bigger than numbers in the thousands place? She can use a calculator for the big numbers. It seems like the benefit of learning those algorithms is really just to gain greater number sense about the distributive property. Otherwise it seems like a waste of time when we have calculators at our fingertips all the time. I mean, my kids use Beast Academy and AoPS. There are lots of things in there that the average kid doesn't NEED to learn. I guess I need to get clear on what are the bare necessities.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie of KY Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 MEP has free resources on the web - just google MEP math. It starts at about a prealgebra/algebra level with level 7. I like that each "chapter" is a self-contained topic and therefore you can pick and choose what you want to work on with her. It definately does not feel too young for an 18 year old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) Overcoming Difficulty with Number by Bird would help, but it is not free. I used the back portions of the book with DS. I love that book. Love your videos too! Edited August 25, 2017 by Heathermomster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 MEP has free resources on the web - just google MEP math. It starts at about a prealgebra/algebra level with level 7. I like that each "chapter" is a self-contained topic and therefore you can pick and choose what you want to work on with her. It definately does not feel too young for an 18 year old. I forgot about MEP! I'll definitely check this out. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 Overcoming Difficulty with Number by Bird would help, but it is not free. I used the back portions of the book with DS. I love that book. Love your videos too! Thank you! I think this was the one I'd read when we made the videos. I just ordered it through interlibrary loan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 There are lots of things in there that the average kid doesn't NEED to learn. I guess I need to get clear on what are the bare necessities.... Do you have the red ACT book? Not everything in the public school textbook is tested either. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1119386896/ If the aim is to qualify for something like the Tennessee or Georgia's Hope Scholarship, then the required minimum ACT score could be achievable with test prep and ignoring non-tested topics for the time being. It is the composite score they are looking at so her English can help pull up the composite if her language skills are strong. My kids Geometry and trigonometry pull their math score up on the ACT. My kids are stronger in visual spatial actually so the geometry topics in ACT was less effort than algebra. MEP is free and not childish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 Do you have the red ACT book? Not everything in the public school textbook is tested either. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1119386896/ I don't. Thank you for the recommendation! If the aim is to qualify for something like the Tennessee or Georgia's Hope Scholarship, then the required minimum ACT score could be achievable with test prep and ignoring non-tested topics for the time being. It is the composite score they are looking at so her English can help pull up the composite if her language skills are strong. She has dyslexia, so language skills probably aren't strong. My kids Geometry and trigonometry pull their math score up on the ACT. My kids are stronger in visual spatial actually so the geometry topics in ACT was less effort than algebra. Her mom said she is a visual learner. I could do some work on Geometry, too, I suppose, while she's learning the arithmetic basics. MEP is free and not childish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterbaby Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 It's troubling - actually neglectful IMO - that a mom who knows she has severe difficulties herself would let it go so long. A large part of your challenge will be to communicate diplomatically about how much you can do at the last minute (and at this point with that much deficiency, even a whole year is the last minute). You have to make your own assessment because I wouldn't put much stock in what a parent who let this happen has to say. The ACT is probably not realistic. "Visual learner" though mom may say she is I don't know how much you'll be able to do with geometry and trig if basics are still an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) She has dyslexia, so language skills probably aren't strong.If she needs to have an ACT score for whatever purpose, look at requesting for accommodations http://www.act.org/content/act/en/products-and-services/the-act/registration/accommodations.html If it is for community college, Accuplacer test with accommodation might work better. The Accuplacer test is untimed compared to ACT which is timed. My oldest did well for the ACT but he was exhausted by the time science section comes around which is why I won't recommend that "timed torture" unless an ACT score is needed. The science section on ACT is quite reading intensive. "ACCUPLACER accommodations are available but are not approved by the College Board. Contact the test center at your college or other institution for more information" https://www.collegeboard.org/students-with-disabilities/accommodations-other-exams ETA: Link is to the student booklet from ACT. It has a practice exam in there. My slow speed reader couldn't finish any of the ACT sections when he took it. My fast reader just finished for the English sections, some time to spare for Math and was too exhausted to care for Science. https://www.act.org/content/dam/act/unsecured/documents/Preparing-for-the-ACT.pdf Edited August 25, 2017 by Arcadia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 It's troubling - actually neglectful IMO - that a mom who knows she has severe difficulties herself would let it go so long. A large part of your challenge will be to communicate diplomatically about how much you can do at the last minute (and at this point with that much deficiency, even a whole year is the last minute). You have to make your own assessment because I wouldn't put much stock in what a parent who let this happen has to say. The ACT is probably not realistic. "Visual learner" though mom may say she is I don't know how much you'll be able to do with geometry and trig if basics are still an issue. Yes, I agree that it seems unrealistic. Since I haven't actually met with her yet, though, I'm waiting to make any solid judgments about the situation for now. We'll see what happens. No matter what, I'm gonna do the best I can to help her out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 If she needs to have an ACT score for whatever purpose, look at requesting for accommodations http://www.act.org/content/act/en/products-and-services/the-act/registration/accommodations.html If it is for community college, Accuplacer test with accommodation might work better. The Accuplacer test is untimed compared to ACT which is timed. My oldest did well for the ACT but he was exhausted by the time science section comes around which is why I won't recommend that "timed torture" unless an ACT score is needed. The science section on ACT is quite reading intensive. "ACCUPLACER accommodations are available but are not approved by the College Board. Contact the test center at your college or other institution for more information" https://www.collegeboard.org/students-with-disabilities/accommodations-other-exams ETA: Link is to the student booklet from ACT. It has a practice exam in there. My slow speed reader couldn't finish any of the ACT sections when he took it. My fast reader just finished for the English sections, some time to spare for Math and was too exhausted to care for Science. https://www.act.org/content/dam/act/unsecured/documents/Preparing-for-the-ACT.pdf I'll pass this info on to the mom. Thank you!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted September 2, 2017 Author Share Posted September 2, 2017 UPDATE: I met with the girl and her mom yesterday! It went well! I was wrong about the ACT. It is the PERT test that they want her to take. So she'll only need to get through Algebra 1. I've decided I don't like Math U See. From what I can tell, not enough time is spent on mental math, he teaches multiplication via skip counting (which doesn't work for kids who can't do rote memorizing well), and I prefer the way beast academy teaches the multiplication algorithm. The girl is very sweet and willing to learn. She did struggle to subtilize when younger. She now has dot patterns memorized. She struggles remembering a list of numbers (numerals) if she can't write it down. She struggles with algorithm steps. Very unsure about multiplication facts. Has difficulty with time and measurement. She says the numbers on the clock are wrong somehow. I sensed some math anxiety and low self-esteem, which makes sense considering the circumstances. Digit span seems within normal range. I might still have her work on that, though. She has facts to 10 memorized and knows how to cross over/bridge ten because of using RightStart years ago before they switched to MUS. (Though she had been trying to do the addition algorithm in her head for mental math which would cause a working memory overload) We worked on mental addition (adding tens then ones) with the MUS blocks, mostly within 100 but some larger. She did great. Then we moved on to multiplying by 4. I taught her to say "of" when she sees a multiplication symbol so that she would grab 4 of the 7 rod for 4x7. Then split it in two pieces. Figure out 2x7. Then double that. We worked up to problems like 21x4 and 53x4 (with blocks and drawings). We did a few x8 problems. We talked about and modeled the commutative property. It was actually quite enjoyable working with a young adult! No fidgeting. Lots of motivation. Good articulation about needs and understanding. The mom told me today that the daughter said she really understood what we did, so I'm anticipating future sessions going well, too. If anyone has more insight now that I have more information, I'd love to hear it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 (edited) Bird covers all that you described. If you teach her to draw the area model, that information will transfer easily to factoring in algebra. Factoring based upon the area model is presented by James Tanton and called the Galley Method. Edited September 2, 2017 by Heathermomster 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 It's not free, but ALEKS may be worth considering, particularly since some schools use it for math placement. Having said that, for the 18 yr old in a similar situation I mentor, what has worked best was to go ahead, graduate her, and send her onto CC. There, at least she's not the only 18 yr old struggling with 5th grade math in a non-credit class. (Having said that, my state has free CC tuition for high school graduates). Like with your student, it's hard to tell how much is diagnosed Ls issues, and how much is lack of instruction, but the CC seems pretty used to both. (She's actually doing math 1 1/2 hours/day in a classroom setting, with a mix of live and online instruction). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Another thing I'm thinking over is whether there are some topics that are okay to skip over and, if so, what they are. I'm so used to teaching every tiny little thing to mastery. But does she really need to know how to add 99 (or 98 or 199) in her head? Is it alright to help her understand the long multiplication and long division algorithms and why they work but not go bigger than numbers in the thousands place? She can use a calculator for the big numbers. It seems like the benefit of learning those algorithms is really just to gain greater number sense about the distributive property. Otherwise it seems like a waste of time when we have calculators at our fingertips all the time. I mean, my kids use Beast Academy and AoPS. There are lots of things in there that the average kid doesn't NEED to learn. I guess I need to get clear on what are the bare necessities.... I wish I had details for you, but skipping some topics is a technique some of our good ps teachers in math and science use, in order for kids to learn core topics thoroughly. I think it's a good strategy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 (edited) PERT has accommodations too. Your student sounds lovely to tutor :) "Accommodations for P.E.R.T. Are there testing accommodations for students with disabilities? Testing accommodations for students with disabilities include an accessibility wizard built into the assessment that allows selected students to adjust the font size on the screen. Within the same wizard, they can also change the font color and the background color, which provides different contrast for those that need it. Once the paper version of the P.E.R.T. is available, a Braille version will also be available at a higher cost per unit. Which students are eligible for accommodations? Students who have an IEP or 504 plan that authorizes accommodations on standardized tests may use the appropriate P.E.R.T. accommodations. Will there be a paper version of P.E.R.T. available for high schools? Currently, the paper version of the P.E.R.T. is under development. High schools are expected to primarily administer the C.A.T. version of P.E.R.T. except to those students whose IEP or 504 plans require accommodations." http://www.fldoe.org/core/fileparse.php/5592/urlt/0078246-pertfaq.pdf ETA: "P.E.R.T. Subject Area Assessments There are three P.E.R.T. assessments, each with 30 questions. The content that is tested is listed below by subject: Mathematics:  Equations – solving linear equations, linear inequalities, quadratic equations and literal equations  Evaluating algebraic expressions  Polynomials – factoring, simplifying, adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing  Dividing by monomials and binomials  Applying standard algorithms or concepts  Coordinate planes – translating between lines and inspect equations  Focusing on pairs of simultaneous linear equations in two variables" http://www.fldoe.org/core/fileparse.php/5592/urlt/0078248-pert-studentstudyguide.pdf Edited September 4, 2017 by Arcadia 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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