Competitive vs Collaborative environments?

[rbk mama]

How do you find out this information about colleges?  For example, I've read comments about Johns Hopkins and Columbia as being colleges with very competitive environments.  I know that MIT has designed classes to be collaborative, that students need to work together in order to complete their assignments.  Its difficult for me to understand why anyone would want to study in an environment that pits students against each other (if that is actually how it plays out).  How do you find out this kind of information?  Specifically looking at engineering (not pre-med), but curious in general.

TIA!  

[Janeway]

Knowing what I know now, I cannot stand collaborative environments. Every single time I have seen them, kids just get put in to groups and told to do a project together. There is no structure and someone else up doing all the work and someone ends up left out and no one has control over their own grade, etc. Things become more hostile and stressful. No way. I have even heard feedback like this from colleges with the best of schools. Schools do well when they do not base grades based on how other students do, then students help each other. But not the whole junky stupid "group project" problem.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Janeway

[snowbeltmom]

Knowing what I know now, I cannot stand collaborative environments. Every single time I have seen them, kids just get put in to groups and told to do a project together. There is no structure and someone else up doing all the work and someone ends up left out and no one has control over their own grade, etc. Things become more hostile and stressful. No way. I have even heard feedback like this from colleges with the best of schools. Schools do well when they do not base grades based on how other students do, then students help each other. But not the whole junky stupid "group project" problem.

What you describe sounds more like a "group project" than a "collaborative environment."  In my experience, a collaborative environment is one where the students get together to work on problem sets together rather than working individually on the problem sets.  The kids in a collaborative environment definitely have control over their grades as the biggest percentage of their grade for most classes is based on in-class tests and final exam.

[Janeway]

What you describe sounds more like a "group project" than a "collaborative environment."  In my experience, a collaborative environment is one where the students get together to work on problem sets together rather than working individually on the problem sets.  The kids in a collaborative environment definitely have control over their grades as the biggest percentage of their grade for most classes is based on in-class tests and final exam.

Students have always had that option.

 

The competitiveness where students are pitted against each other is when grading practices give A's to the top certain percent, B's to the next certain percent, and so on. In those cases, if 50% of the class earned 100% and 50% earned 99%, those with 99% will get C's. That kind of grading practice leads to a competitive learning environment where no one feels they can trust each other.

 

A collaborative class environment refers to group projects and grading based on it. I know some current and recent victims of this kind of environment and it is not pretty. One guy, top student, straight A's in college, the nice and hardworking kind of guy who gets his textbooks in advance and reads them in advance and goes the extra mile..anyway, he was paired last semester with some partying jerks who did not want to include him on a project. He kept contacting his partners and trying to be a part of it. In the end, he got his first B in college when his partners refused to include him. Another person I heard from tells me that she either ends up doing all the work or gets left out. She hated it so much that she left that college. She is at UT Austin now where it is not like that, at least, not in the classes she is taking. I know someone whose son is not that ambitious, so it does not bother him. He just shrugs it off. If the other students want to do all the work, he doesn't care. If they want him to do the work, whatever. 

 

People do not learn as a collective. Brains operate individually. I can see studying together and helping each other and maybe even bouncing ideas off each other. But unless each student does all the work, they will not learn much. And if it is just about output, then why pay for it?

[lewelma]

We asked professors and students at each university we visited. Are you allowed/encouraged to work together on assignments or are you required to have your assignments be totally your own? It was very clear which university was which. No one hedged. They either allowed/encouraged it or they didn't.

[snowbeltmom]

How do you find out this information about colleges?  For example, I've read comments about Johns Hopkins and Columbia as being colleges with very competitive environments.  I know that MIT has designed classes to be collaborative, that students need to work together in order to complete their assignments.  Its difficult for me to understand why anyone would want to study in an environment that pits students against each other (if that is actually how it plays out).  How do you find out this kind of information?  Specifically looking at engineering (not pre-med), but curious in general.

TIA!  

 

In the case of MIT, I wouldn't say the classes are designed to be collaborative. Instead, I would say that the environment is collaborative.  The kids don't need to work together in order to complete their assignments, but many of the kids do work together on problem sets. (My son did have one class with a group project that was minimally factored into his final grade.)

 

Many of the professors also curve grades.  However, according to my son, this does not hinder the collaborative environment.

 

During the college search with my kids, I would ask other people who were familiar with the schools on our list to see if they could shed some light on the type of school environment.  This feedback did cause some schools to fall off the lists.  I think where there is smoke, there is usually fire.

 

 

 

 

[Hoggirl]

I tend to think of collaborative in this context as "supportive." I know that's not the definition, but I think this is what people mean within a college environment.

 

Ds's school is considered to have a collaborative environment, but I don't in any way think this diminishes competitiveness. But it's more of a competitiveness from *within* to strive to achieve higher/better/more. Not an "I'm doing better than you" sort of thing.

 

I do differentiate the term "cutthroat." I think of that as students trying to thwart the success of others. I don't have an issue with competitiveness, in general.

 

Ds has had some group projects, but I think those were primarily freshman year. More in gen Ed classes. I think he enjoyed them, and I don't think there was any dead weight. The most challenging part was finding a time when everyone could meet because they were all so involved with multiple extracurriculars. I honestly don't know if he works on p-sets with others or not.

[rbk mama]

In the case of MIT, I wouldn't say the classes are designed to be collaborative. Instead, I would say that the environment is collaborative.  The kids don't need to work together in order to complete their assignments, but many of the kids do work together on problem sets. (My son did have one class with a group project that was minimally factored into his final grade.)

 

Many of the professors also curve grades.  However, according to my son, this does not hinder the collaborative environment.

 

During the college search with my kids, I would ask other people who were familiar with the schools on our list to see if they could shed some light on the type of school environment.  This feedback did cause some schools to fall off the lists.  I think where there is smoke, there is usually fire.

 

Yes, what I meant is a collaborative environment - not group projects.  In the case of MIT, they told us (during a campus tour) that in many classes, the p-sets were too difficult for students to complete on their own, and that they would need to work together in order to complete them.  DS says the OCW he's used from them says something similar - that students are encouraged to work together on them.  What feels significant to me is the encouragement to assist the students around you and not feel you are in competition with them.

 

By competitive, yes, I'm concerned about cutthroat - where the tendency is to NOT want to help others because you need to get a better score than those around you.  The high school environment where we live tends to be cutthroat, as people are very concerned with their ranking.  Top students can have their books stolen before exams, that kind of thing.  I think any university setting which attracts top students will feel somewhat competitive simply because those students are driven, ambitious kids.  I do think the university can impact the way that plays out, though.

 

So, the best way is to ask current students?

[snowbeltmom]

Yes, what I meant is a collaborative environment - not group projects.  In the case of MIT, they told us (during a campus tour) that in many classes, the p-sets were too difficult for students to complete on their own, and that they would need to work together in order to complete them.  DS says the OCW he's used from them says something similar - that students are encouraged to work together on them.  What feels significant to me is the encouragement to assist the students around you and not feel you are in competition with them.

 

By competitive, yes, I'm concerned about cutthroat - where the tendency is to NOT want to help others because you need to get a better score than those around you.  The high school environment where we live tends to be cutthroat, as people are very concerned with their ranking.  Top students can have their books stolen before exams, that kind of thing.  I think any university setting which attracts top students will feel somewhat competitive simply because those students are driven, ambitious kids.  I do think the university can impact the way that plays out, though.

 

So, the best way is to ask current students?

 

We asked both current students when we were on tours and other people who had either graduated from the school or known someone well who had.  Through asking these questions, we heard of three kids who had transferred out of the same college all within two years of us asking the question.  When we were told of the first student, I gave the school the benefit of the doubt and attributed the student leaving due to the rigorous course load.  Then I was told by another family that one of their family members had transferred out of the same school to Harvard.  Then shortly after that, we learned of another kid who had transferred out of the same school to MIT.  All cited the same reason - the cut-throat environment- and clearly grades or not being able to hack the course load was not the issue with at least 2 of the students. 

 

[Guest]

Ask the students what the grading system is. If unlimited numbers can earn an A, it won't be as cut throat. If only the top x can earn the A, it will be cutthroat if pre-meds and scholarship students are in the class and they are struggling.

 

So far, we have found high school to be most cutthroat...students damaging other students instruments before auditions for all county etc, papers stolen, badmouthing the gifted and accusing them of obtaining parent help, pulling strings to get into classes they aren't qualified for, monopolizng discussions and tutoring sessions with stupid contributions,parents advocating for not offering AP stem courses, classes formed to benefit ivy applications and not offered to the competition, clubs closed to competitors, etc.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

We asked both current students when we were on tours and other people who had either graduated from the school or known someone well who had.  Through asking these questions, we heard of three kids who had transferred out of the same college all within two years of us asking the question.  When we were told of the first student, I gave the school the benefit of the doubt and attributed the student leaving due to the rigorous course load.  Then I was told by another family that one of their family members had transferred out of the same school to Harvard.  Then shortly after that, we learned of another kid who had transferred out of the same school to MIT.  All cited the same reason - the cut-throat environment- and clearly grades or not being able to hack the course load was not the issue with at least 2 of the students. 

 

 

The topic of environment came up when my son was visiting a couple schools.  He was with students who were applying to or had been accepted at some very prestigious and selective colleges.  One of them was mentioned as being very competitive - in the sense that academic success was seen as a zero sum game.  It was mentioned that this school had had problems with material being removed from reserve sets in the library (as in pages cut out of books that were on reference reserve for all to have access to).

 

By contrast, the school he ended up at seemed to think that the helping peers be successful at their goals was a worthy endeavor, not something that took away from your own success.  

[daijobu]

If there is a school that you are interested in, I would name it here or on College Confidential and ask.  You may need to be specific as the competitiveness can vary by major.   

[Ann.without.an.e]

Honestly, I wouldn't depend on the internet or outside feelings of a school to sway you.  Get on campus and ask, ask, ask the random students (not tour guides, etc).  I had always heard that Duke was super cutthroat and because of this dd almost didn't apply.  I not only believed it but when I did internet searches my feelings were confirmed.  When we went for the admitted student days, Dd and I asked random students and the responses we received were very different from the things we had always heard.  One girl laughed at the idea of it, saying that the classes were so challenging that they had to work together and encourage each other just to survive. The students seemed happy (opposite of what we had heard).  DD has loved her time there so far and they definitely collaborated for her two courses over the summer.  

Edited August 27, 2017 by Attolia