Menu
Jump to content

What's with the ads?

38carrots

Why do you wear make-up? (if you do)

Recommended Posts

See I have a hard time understanding when people say they wear it for themselves. It just doesn't compute. Makeup is such a pain in the a** to deal with that I can't wrap my brain around the fact that people want to wear it and don't feel obligated out of societies expectations.

 

I know this isn't the case for everyone but I hate makeup so much my brain has a hard time believing it isn't always for someone else/society

 

I don't see it as a pain to deal with. Takes an extra 5-7 minutes to get ready. Washes off easy at night. I wear it because I prefer the way I look with it. So much better than every brown spot or whatever showing up. I feel more put together. It is definitely not about sexual attractiveness. My dh could care less if I wore make up. He gets frustrated if I've taken a break from it and he wants to go somewhere, meaning he has to wait an extra 15 minutes (because that means I'm also not dressed to go out).

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you don't like makeup, then don't wear it. Not judgement from me. I like how I look in makeup. I feel more put together, like putting on more flattering clothes. Don't judge me for wanting to look nice. I don't do it for a man. I never did. I do it for me.

 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you can't really separate out the biology from the culture, or an interest in self-care or even having fun from the biology.

 

Usually, a certain level of self-care is indicative of psychological health - stopping that is a major sign of some sort of mental or psychological problem.

 

Social norms develop based on all kinds of things - what looks "healthy" what is sexually attractive, the chances of historical development and geography, etc.  What we perceive as "normal" will depend on our cultural exposure.

 

I don't think it's repulsive to want to be attractive to men, for what its worth.  That doesn't necessarily mean anything extreme - they are conditioned by cultural norms as well.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love makeup! I love wearing nice clothes. I love fixing my hair. I enjoy it when people tell me I'm pretty, or I look nice. I can't imagine leaving my house looking like a fright. To me that sort of look means, "I don't think I'm worth the effort." I like to put my best self forward at all times, and for me, that best self is well dressed, with makeup, and decent looking hair. And to be honest, the reality is, people are nicer to you and treat you better if you're more attractive. I wish the world didn't work that way....but it does.

  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you can't really separate out the biology from the culture

So, how does this work in the case of an older woman (without uterus and ovaries due to surgery) and married to the same man for 3 decades and still is obsessed with makeup and spends too much money (out of proportion to their family food budget) on makeup. I have such an IL and was wondering why they do it - biology (as in attracting men) is out of the picture for them definitely. Is it peer pressure?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think both males and females have ideas about what people should look like or look like in different situations. Ad companies are usually very good at determining who their audience is and who they expect to see.  I know that homeschooling communities in different areas dressed differently.  I mostly kept dressing the same and having the same types of hairstyles I wanted.  In my case, I know I look better in makeup but don't usually wear it. Partly because I don't want to wear it everyday (I don't even leave the house most days), the stuff is unsafe to use way before I use it up and so it isn't very economical.  I am considering getting some new makeup partly to get people to pay attention to my face and ignore my legs (I have lately gotten a new unpleasant looking problem with my legs called livido reticulitis as a result of my autoimmune conditions). 

 

As to my dh, he decided to be with me when I usually wasn't wearing make-up and he still likes me regardless of it.  His main concern is that I stay as healthy as possible so he really is more interested in my not getting an eye infection over wearing make-up.

 

This is a key point, I think. You made a clear personal choice. But I wonder how many people do something different from the majority of women they encounter daily. I have tons of reasons I think I don't wear makeup, but in truth, it's probably just because in the particular slice of culture I inhabit, that's what I've grown accustomed to. And in certain settings-- I'm looking at you, East Coast academia-- wearing makeup certainly isn't considered part of a woman's necessary professional attire. In any case, I suspect if I grew up in a region where every woman wore at least a little makeup, I'd put it on like I put my bra on every morning...because it's part of getting dressed.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh see I think it's cool that different people do different things and for the most part most report feeling totally happy/cool with whatever it is they do/don't do. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to think that for much of my life, I was as pretty without makeup as with.

 

I do think those days are gone though.  :P

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't wear a lot, just eyeliner and mascara. I wear it because it improves how I look. It accentuates my eyes. I wear it both for myself and for others.

 

My husband prefers that I don't wear foundation. He doesn't like the way it smells. He doesn't care for lipstick, either. Other than that, he claims not to notice if I wear makeup--but I think I get more compliments from him when I do.  :)

 

I see nothing wrong with accentuating the positive in one's appearance, either with particular hairstyles or clothing or makeup. I enjoy looking as attractive as possible. It makes me feel good about myself. I draw the line at spending a lot of time or money on makeup, however.

 

 

I have crazy hair if I don't fix it.  I look like a wild animal.  So yeah, I feel much better when it is fixed.  I don't like much fuss time either.  I go to bed with we hair, wake up and spend about 12 minutes straighteing it, 8 minutes on my make up and I'm done.  And yes I time myself.  LOL.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, how does this work in the case of an older woman (without uterus and ovaries due to surgery) and married to the same man for 3 decades and still is obsessed with makeup and spends too much money (out of proportion to their family food budget) on makeup. I have such an IL and was wondering why they do it - biology (as in attracting men) is out of the picture for them definitely. Is it peer pressure?

Why would her age or marital status have anything to do with it? Maybe she simply enjoys buying and wearing makeup. Maybe she thinks the makeup makes her look prettier, and she likes to feel pretty. Some of us think makeup is fun and we buy it and wear it because we like applying it and trying out new products and colors.

 

It seems like a lot of people like to look for all sorts of hidden psychological motivations for why women wear makeup. I'm not sure why anyone cares if one woman chooses to wear makeup while another chooses not to wear it. It doesn't affect me if other women don't use any makeup, so why would anyone look for a reason why I do wear it?

Edited by Catwoman
  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love makeup! I love wearing nice clothes. I love fixing my hair. I enjoy it when people tell me I'm pretty, or I look nice. I can't imagine leaving my house looking like a fright. To me that sort of look means, "I don't think I'm worth the effort." I like to put my best self forward at all times, and for me, that best self is well dressed, with makeup, and decent looking hair. And to be honest, the reality is, people are nicer to you and treat you better if you're more attractive. I wish the world didn't work that way....but it does.

I was thinking this, too, if we want to go wide-lens and talk about the larger culture. I'm sure you've all seen those documentaries in which they do tests to figure out who gets the benefits in the world - nice-looking people or unattractive people by our typical cultural standards. It is the nice-looking people by a wide margin, who get the jobs, who get the friendly smile from clerks, who get the better treatment by a server, who get the promotion, even who are responded to better by kids in a preschool. Now, obviously, we are not all born with the genetic good looks card in our favor, but being well-groomed and conforming to standards of presenting oneself well, does help move one up the scale a ways.

 

If I did nothing at all to enhance my appearance and showcase my better features, I would have many strikes against me. But I make an effort to minimize my less attractive natural realities and to enhance the things that already are pretty good by our cultural expectations.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would her age or marital status have anything to do with it? Maybe she simply enjoys buying and wearing makeup. Maybe she thinks the makeup makes her look prettier, and she likes to feel pretty. Some of us think makeup is fun and we buy it and wear it because we like applying it and trying out new products and colors.

 

It seems like a lot of people like to look for all sorts of hidden psychological motivations for why women wear makeup. I'm not sure why anyone cares if one woman chooses to wear makeup while another chooses not to wear it. It doesn't affect me if other women don't use any makeup, so why would anyone look for a reason why I do wear it?

 

Right on Catwoman!  :-)

 

Makeup can be fun. Or I should say, it's fun for some people.  

 

My daughter grew up with a mom who didn't wear makeup. (I had worn it as a teen and throughout my working  years, but gave up when the first kid arrived.)  In the circles we ran in when she was little, most of the women didn't wear makeup either.  So she had no expectation of wearing makeup.  I did not buy her "play makeup" because, well, it's still makeup and I don't like little girls in makeup.  The magazines that came to our house were focused on home and cooking, so no makeup there.

 

And then one day, maybe about 13? - she asked when she could wear makeup.  So we talked about it and decided what she could wear when.  And who would pay for it.  Fortunately, she was babysitting by then, so she had her own money. I've never bought her one item of makeup except as birthday or Christmas gifts.  And she's been having fun with makeup ever since, to the point she is considering a career related to it.  

 

She wears it at home when she is not going anywhere. She wears it to church where there are no attractive young men to... attract.  She wears it running to Walmart with me.  

 

She got me wearing some again.  I'm happy she did!  

 

People have been decorating their faces and bodies for a long time.  At t his time and in our current culture, it's typically the women only who do it. Why that is I do not know, nor do I care.   Human nature is interesting but I don't feel the need to understand every single thing people do.  :-)

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wear minimal make up.  I wear foundation because I don't have the most even skin tone and have redness some.  Foundation evens that out.  And I wear lip gloss, well, tinted Burts Bees.  It gives me some color because I tend to look washed out.

 

If I have extra time, I put on eye shadow and mascara but not normally.

 

For men?  Pfffttt....nope.  

 

It is the same reason I actually try on clothing before I buy or wear them out in public. I want to look decent.

If I didn't care at all, I would just buy men's jeans, whatever Tee I found lying about, and not wash my hair.

 

Really, we all care to some degree don't we?

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Wearing makeup generally means I am treated better.

 

That is interesting. Could you elaborate? I feel that I am treated just fine, and I never wear makeup. What would "better" treatment entail?

 

ETA: And I should add, being treated fine includes being treated respectfully in a professional setting, being listened to, being appreciated for my professional expertise.

Edited by regentrude
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like how I look in it. I have a lot of uneven tones and freckles/darker blotches. I like how it evens out the color of my skin. I used to buy Mary Kay but have been trying drug store brands. I'm currently using Rimmel BB Cream Matte and like it. Most days I only wear the foundation, their pressed powder, and eyeliner. Some days I add contour and blush on my cheeks and some on my eyes. 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This begs the question. Why isn't it required for men? What does it say about our view of women that foregoing corrective coloration is in the same category as dirty uncombed hair?

Well last time I went to the pool and the currently fashionable "required for men" waxing every hair off the chest looked like a pretty equitable sacrifice to me! 😂

 

ETA of course I know what you mean. For what it's worth, I actually have noticed some men wearing foundation/face makeup lately, and obviously covering gray hair. So there's that.

Edited by Seasider
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I say let's try this out. We should all not shave pits or legs, put on a dress with no make up but comb our hair and not be disheveled. Go out and do the daily things and then pay very close attention to the inner voice of discomfort. Just thinking about doing it makes me want to hide as painful as that is for me to admit. Why? Why do I feel uncomfortable with that?

 

I did this happily until I was in my 30s and then moved to a country that had weird expectations for female beauty routines.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This begs the question. Why isn't it required for men? What does it say about our view of women that foregoing corrective coloration is in the same category as dirty uncombed hair?

I've often thought of it the other way: I feel sorry for some men in that it is (generally, most places) not socially acceptable for them to correct their skin coloration or enhance their eyes or make their lips stand out with make up. Have acne? Rosacea? Pale rabbit eyes and blonde lashes? Oh well.

 

My brother has the same hereditary dark circles under his eyes that eye have. But I can cover them up and nobody goes, "OH MY GOD! You're wearing MAKE-UP?"

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only time I ever wear makeup of any kind is if someone's opinion of my appearance maters and the only situations I can think of like that are job interviews. Last interview I had was in 2013...and I didn't wear make up for it. They didn't care, all they cared was that I could read and pass a drug test.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like make up, not a lot though. I wear Dr. Pepper chapstick, mascara & I use highlighter around my cheekbones and eyebrow bone. I also like wearing cute clothes, perfume, having my hair straightened- it all takes little effort but I feel prettier. The same way I eat well and exercise, I just feel better all around. 😊

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd just like to make it clear that I don't judge women for wearing makeup. I don't ever think about anyone else's makeup routine. I was just pointing out that for me, since it was brought up here and I actually thought about it, it's simply something my brain can't compute on why anyone would do it because I hate it so much. But I can literally feel it on my face all day long and it drives me crazy.

 

It is just one of those few things I can't wrap my head around.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wear light make up every day because I want to look awake, healthy, and ready for the day. 

 

For special events, I wear make up to look appropriately formal. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd just like to make it clear that I don't judge women for wearing makeup. I don't ever think about anyone else's makeup routine. I was just pointing out that for me, since it was brought up here and I actually thought about it, it's simply something my brain can't compute on why anyone would do it because I hate it so much. But I can literally feel it on my face all day long and it drives me crazy.

 

It is just one of those few things I can't wrap my head around.

I like wearing makeup, but I understand what you mean. I have tried brands that I could feel on my face all day and I hated it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did this happily until I was in my 30s and then moved to a country that had weird expectations for female beauty routines.

But if many of us moved there from the United States, we might think that country had weird expectations for female beauty routines.

 

I think it's just a matter of both personal preference and different cultures. I don't think either way is wrong or weird.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've often thought of it the other way: I feel sorry for some men in that it is (generally, most places) not socially acceptable for them to correct their skin coloration or enhance their eyes or make their lips stand out with make up. Have acne? Rosacea? Pale rabbit eyes and blonde lashes? Oh well.

 

My brother has the same hereditary dark circles under his eyes that eye have. But I can cover them up and nobody goes, "OH MY GOD! You're wearing MAKE-UP?"

 

He can be himself without anyone thinking he is out of line, let alone unprofessional, for failing to "correct" it. If his natural face doesn't look great, "oh well" indeed - as a man, it won't affect his social esteem or income, because unlike you and me he's not living in a society where his degree of conformity to the sexual/aesthetic standards of the opposite sex is the implicit bottom line on his worth as a person.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, how does this work in the case of an older woman (without uterus and ovaries due to surgery) and married to the same man for 3 decades and still is obsessed with makeup and spends too much money (out of proportion to their family food budget) on makeup. I have such an IL and was wondering why they do it - biology (as in attracting men) is out of the picture for them definitely. Is it peer pressure?

 

Having a husband and being infertile often don't change the imperative to be sexually attractive, in my observation.  It isn't generally particularly concious, anyway.  After all, people who are well fed still like to think about cooking, and not because they are worried about starving.

 

And culture doesn't care about those individual circumstances either.  Probably more than in the past - we no longer expect older women to dress in a more reserved way, and we worship youth culture and have no respect for elders, especially women.  We also live in a consumer society that emphasizes spending to make us feel better.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did this happily until I was in my 30s and then moved to a country that had weird expectations for female beauty routines.

So awesome! I feel so conditioned that if I am prickly I shave or don't wear shorts/dresses. I had a friend in high school who didn't shave and bucked the system. It seemed so liberating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I didn't care at all, I would just buy men's jeans, whatever Tee I found lying about, and not wash my hair.

And, this is my life lol.  Well, I wash my hair, but of course it gets itchy and gross and starts falling out if I don't.  I do brush/comb/pick it out, but most days, I just yank it back in a pony tail so it's up and out of the way.  It's super ultra curly and takes a lot of work and I have seriously contemplated shaving it more than once lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have crazy hair if I don't fix it.  I look like a wild animal.  So yeah, I feel much better when it is fixed.  I don't like much fuss time either.  I go to bed with we hair, wake up and spend about 12 minutes straighteing it, 8 minutes on my make up and I'm done.  And yes I time myself.  LOL.  

 

LOL. Trying to picture you looking like a wild animal and failing. I think I still picture you looking like your old Scarlett O'Hara avatar!

 

I don't think 12 minutes is excessive. I'm just not that patient. I was in the 80's, though. Those bangs took time, effort, and plenty of hairspray. My mom actually bought me a see-through hairspray face shield so I wouldn't inhale as much!  :laugh:

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well last time I went to the pool and the currently fashionable "required for men" waxing every hair off the chest looked like a pretty equitable sacrifice to me! 😂

 

ETA of course I know what you mean. For what it's worth, I actually have noticed some men wearing foundation/face makeup lately, and obviously covering gray hair. So there's that.

 

Gosh, that is not a trend I enjoy!  Unfair as it is, I feel like it looks girly, and I prefer men not to look girly.  My dh is not a hairy guy, so I feel I haven't let my prejudices influence me too much on this, but it does make me muse about how grooming trends reflect (or not) masculine and feminine qualities.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would her age or marital status have anything to do with it? Maybe she simply enjoys buying and wearing makeup. Maybe she thinks the makeup makes her look prettier, and she likes to feel pretty. Some of us think makeup is fun and we buy it and wear it because we like applying it and trying out new products and colors.

 

It seems like a lot of people like to look for all sorts of hidden psychological motivations for why women wear makeup. I'm not sure why anyone cares if one woman chooses to wear makeup while another chooses not to wear it. It doesn't affect me if other women don't use any makeup, so why would anyone look for a reason why I do wear it?

 

To the bolded - because to women who don't wear makeup (or can't - I have both allergies and sensory issues, and it makes me feel not-myself to the point of throwing me off, psychologically) it doesn't feel like a free personal choice that nobody cares either way about. We know that many people look down on us for not wearing it, and we know that it can affect us in jobs etc. Even in this thread, not wearing makeup has been repeatedly compared to going around dirty and ungroomed. So saying "it's just my personal choice! what's the big deal?" seems like an unjust denial of the pressures and consequences that are involved. Trying to question the shared, unspoken societal assumptions about women that drive the idea that our plain face just isn't good enough isn't digging for hidden psychological motivations in individuals. Anyone who tries to attack another woman in those terms is out of line. It's about asking, what are we all assuming about men and women that makes this seem so unremarkable to so many people, yet carries all these consequences?

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He can be himself without anyone thinking he is out of line, let alone unprofessional, for failing to "correct" it. If his natural face doesn't look great, "oh well" indeed - as a man, it won't affect his social esteem or income, because unlike you and me he's not living in a society where his degree of conformity to the sexual/aesthetic standards of the opposite sex is the implicit bottom line on his worth as a person.

 

I think attractiveness correlates to success in men as much as it does in women.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He can be himself without anyone thinking he is out of line, let alone unprofessional, for failing to "correct" it. If his natural face doesn't look great, "oh well" indeed - as a man, it won't affect his social esteem or income, because unlike you and me he's not living in a society where his degree of conformity to the sexual/aesthetic standards of the opposite sex is the implicit bottom line on his worth as a person.

 

I have never ever felt like anyone, male or female, should have "corrected" a natural look.

 

If people enjoy wearing make-up, more power to them.  If people prefer to skip it, more power to them.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be clear, I don't care who wears make up......I truthfully am not going to notice anyway. 

 

But...I also don't care if someone looks down on me for not wearing it.  If they care that much about what my face looks like, I probably don't want to hang out with them anyway. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is interesting. Could you elaborate? I feel that I am treated just fine, and I never wear makeup. What would "better" treatment entail?

 

ETA: And I should add, being treated fine includes being treated respectfully in a professional setting, being listened to, being appreciated for my professional expertise.

 

I have learned to get dressed up (and that includes wearing light makeup) when dealing with medical, healthcare, and educational professionals in relation to my SN child. I get treated better when it looks like I've just come from an office than if I show up with my normal SAHM appearance. My concerns get taken more seriously and I'm more likely to get what I want from them.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think attractiveness correlates to success in men as much as it does in women.

 

I really don't think so. When I was temping, I realized that my practical, tomboyish approach to business casual was limiting me. And part of how I knew it was limiting me was because I was stuck working with a guy who was 400 pounds with bad hygiene. The men who presented with a similar level of care to what I did - khakis, sweater, hair neatly combed - were on a level above me, alongside women who put considerable effort into looks and fashion; and needless to say, if I as a woman was 400 pounds with bad hygiene I would not have had the job at all. There are high powered public-facing careers where looks matter a lot for both sexes, but for the most part, at the levels where most of us operate and excluding special subcultures such as academia, all you have to do is look around to see women making a greater effort than similarly situated men. Because they have to.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd just like to make it clear that I don't judge women for wearing makeup. I don't ever think about anyone else's makeup routine. I was just pointing out that for me, since it was brought up here and I actually thought about it, it's simply something my brain can't compute on why anyone would do it because I hate it so much. But I can literally feel it on my face all day long and it drives me crazy.

 

It is just one of those few things I can't wrap my head around.

Yeah, but I've met you IRL. *telling the Hive* She's so naturally beautiful, she doesn't need make-up.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't think so. When I was temping, I realized that my practical, tomboyish approach to business casual was limiting me. And part of how I knew it was limiting me was because I was stuck working with a guy who was 400 pounds with bad hygiene. The men who presented with a similar level of care to what I did - khakis, sweater, hair neatly combed - were on a level above me, alongside women who put considerable effort into looks and fashion; and needless to say, if I as a woman was 400 pounds with bad hygiene I would not have had the job at all. There are high powered public-facing careers where looks matter a lot for both sexes, but for the most part, at the levels where most of us operate and excluding special subcultures such as academia, all you have to do is look around to see women making a greater effort than similarly situated men. Because they have to.

 

Well, those aren't quite the same thing.

 

Men may not have as much maintenance to meet the social expectations - though that is changing and also at times limiting in its own way.

 

But their success is still related to their attractiveness according to social norms, and I think there is robust research to support that.

 

I think that was part of what Quill was getting at.  A man with a very bad complexion may well suffer the effects of that in terms of career or dating, but also isn't cultural allowed to cover it with make-up.  A short man will be less likely to be hired than a tall one, but can't wear heels to give the illusion of height.  Men who wear lifts have all kinds of character flaws ascribed to them as a result.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have learned to get dressed up (and that includes wearing light makeup) when dealing with medical, healthcare, and educational professionals in relation to my SN child. I get treated better when it looks like I've just come from an office than if I show up with my normal SAHM appearance. My concerns get taken more seriously and I'm more likely to get what I want from them.

I absolutely agree with this. When I have to go to Verizon and argue about my cell phone, it goes better if I wear a suit or dress clothes and look like I'm coming from an office than if I stroll in wearing my homeschooling mom look.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He can be himself without anyone thinking he is out of line, let alone unprofessional, for failing to "correct" it. If his natural face doesn't look great, "oh well" indeed - as a man, it won't affect his social esteem or income, because unlike you and me he's not living in a society where his degree of conformity to the sexual/aesthetic standards of the opposite sex is the implicit bottom line on his worth as a person.

Things are changing in that regard. Boys and men are becoming more self conscious. There is a lot of pressure to be thin and muscular, have a full head of hair, yet be hairless in the right places, such as chest and back. There has been an increase in grooming products and services for men as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, those aren't quite the same thing.

 

Men may not have as much maintenance to meet the social expectations - though that is changing and also at times limiting in its own way.

 

But their success is still related to their attractiveness according to social norms, and I think there is robust research to support that.

 

I think that was part of what Quill was getting at.  A man with a very bad complexion may well suffer the effects of that in terms of career or dating, but also isn't cultural allowed to cover it with make-up.  A short man will be less likely to be hired than a tall one, but can't wear heels to give the illusion of height.  Men who wear lifts have all kinds of character flaws ascribed to them as a result.

 

I'm not denying that looks sometimes play a role for men as compared with other men. But women are being judged on a whole different scale. In many settings, a woman gets counted as having an appearance problem simply for not being all done up, not actually having a problem. An average-looking, unadorned man is simply average-looking; an average-looking, unadorned woman has something wrong with her and gets bumped down a rung (or several). And I personally have as little option to do myself up as the man does, because of my sensory and other issues. And that gets counted against me in a way that wouldn't affect a man otherwise similar to myself.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He can be himself without anyone thinking he is out of line, let alone unprofessional, for failing to "correct" it. If his natural face doesn't look great, "oh well" indeed - as a man, it won't affect his social esteem or income, because unlike you and me he's not living in a society where his degree of conformity to the sexual/aesthetic standards of the opposite sex is the implicit bottom line on his worth as a person.

There is extensive research indicating that men also suffer decreased perks for having features considered unattractive AND it is not socially acceptable to alter that with make-up (or a multitude of different clothing style choices). If society's standard says women with larger breasts are attractive because of a subconscious connection to being a better nurturer of offspring, the same can be said of society's preference for tall men with a powerful upper body because of a subconscious connection to being a better protector of the social unit and provider of food through hunting.

 

During the most recent Presidential election, I saw an article about how predictably the nominee for President, and then subsequently, the winner of the election, was likely to be the tallest person. Tall men seem commanding and more powerful and we clearly, as a society, still respond to that. Donald Trump was the tallest candidate in the Republican field and then was the taller of the two nominees (obviously). Barrack Obama was also taller than McCain or Romney. I'll see if I can find and link the article which hopefully will not be interpreted as political.

 

ETA: My mistake: Romney was taller than Obama, but did not win. Here's an article, though not the one I was remembering:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/caveman-politics/201210/it-s-weird-candidate-height-matters-in-elections

 

For your personal experience with the large man with bad hygiene, I do agree that women are judged more harshly in society for not holding up to a standard of physical beauty and style. I do agree that if the choices for a job are a 400-lb women with bad hygiene vs. a 400-lb man with bad hygiene, the man has a better chance of getting the job. BUT, if that same man is pitted against a 6'5", lean, handsome and well-dressed man, he is NOT going to get the job unless the hiring partner is his Uncle Biff.

Edited by Quill
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have learned to get dressed up (and that includes wearing light makeup) when dealing with medical, healthcare, and educational professionals in relation to my SN child. I get treated better when it looks like I've just come from an office than if I show up with my normal SAHM appearance. My concerns get taken more seriously and I'm more likely to get what I want from them.

  

I absolutely agree with this. When I have to go to Verizon and argue about my cell phone, it goes better if I wear a suit or dress clothes and look like I'm coming from an office than if I stroll in wearing my homeschooling mom look.

Hmm, you guys are making me think that I should dress up for my doctor's appointment next week, so that my concerns will be taken seriously!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Hmm, you guys are making me think that I should dress up for my doctor's appointment next week, so that my concerns will be taken seriously!

It wouldn't hurt, I'm betting.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  

Hmm, you guys are making me think that I should dress up for my doctor's appointment next week, so that my concerns will be taken seriously!

 

It shouldn't matter but unfortunately I have found that it does.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is extensive research indicating that men also suffer decreased perks for having features considered unattractive AND it is not socially acceptable to alter that with make-up (or a multitude of different clothing style choices). If society's standard says women with larger breasts are attractive because of a subconscious connection to being a better nurturer of offspring, the same can be said of society's preference for tall men with a powerful upper body because of a subconscious connection to being a better protector of the social unit and provider of food through hunting.

 

During the most recent Presidential election, I saw an article about how predictably the nominee for President, and then subsequently, the winner of the election, was likely to be the tallest person. Tall men seem commanding and more powerful and we clearly, as a society, still respond to that. Donald Trump was the tallest candidate in the Republican field and then was the taller of the two nominees (obviously). Barrack Obama was also taller than McCain or Romney. I'll see if I can find and link the article which hopefully will not be interpreted as political.

 

For your personal experience with the large man with bad hygiene, I do agree that women are judged more harshly in society for not holding up to a standard of physical beauty and style. I do agree that if the choices for a job are a 400-lb women with bad hygiene vs. a 400-lb man with bad hygiene, the man has a better chance of getting the job. BUT, if that same man is pitted against a 6'5", lean, handsome and well-dressed man, he is NOT going to get the job unless the hiring partner is his Uncle Biff.

True. I wonder if this is internal prejudices against what we perceive as not well maintained or if we innately assume that if someone is fit, looks healthy and clean they have better self control and are therefore more reliable. We have layered so many social constructs onto humans that we are no longer in touch with much of our innate responses but I do wonder about this.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Hmm, you guys are making me think that I should dress up for my doctor's appointment next week, so that my concerns will be taken seriously!

You should. I usually dress presentable when going to the doctors but one evening I had a later appointment and was meeting with a new doctor. I wore yoga pants, a hoodie, no make up and my hair pulled back in a messy pony tail. On the way into the building I walked through a cloud of smoke from someone smoking (their nurses to be exact!) As we talked about some symptoms I had she said "well one thing you should do is quit smoking" and I was so baffled. I have never smoked cigarettes a day in my life because they have killed 3 family members. So I tell her this and she said "are you sure? I could smell smoke when I came in" I was so livid. I told her it was her staff. I did wonder though had I been in my professional clothing and made up would she have just assumed I smoked or maybe would she have asked me if I lived with a smoker. It was interesting though.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

True. I wonder if this is internal prejudices against what we perceive as not well maintained or if we innately assume that if someone is fit, looks healthy and clean they have better self control and are therefore more reliable. We have layered so many social constructs onto humans that we are no longer in touch with much of our innate responses but I do wonder about this.

I think it is both of those things and more. Here is one thing that is true: people who are mentally unhealthy or have a lot of personal problems don't usually have a great presentation. I say, their outside matches their inside; they are disordered on the outside because they are disordered on the inside.

 

During a period of time when I was suffering from depression, I didn't care how I presented myself. I did sometimes literally wear what I had slept in as my "day" outfit. I dragged around, not looking put-together because I didn't have the mental space or wherewithall to put energy into looking better. So if someone had said (and in fact, I'm sure some did), "What is the matter with Danielle? She could look cute, but she makes no effort. She just looks a mess all the time," they may be making assumptions based on how I looked on the outside, but they would not have been wrong. So, while it may seem unfair that people make judgements about what others are like based on how they look, their judgements are often, maybe even usually, correct.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My answer is simple. Because I want to and some days don't want to, depends on my moods and where I'm going.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You should. I usually dress presentable when going to the doctors but one evening I had a later appointment and was meeting with a new doctor. I wore yoga pants, a hoodie, no make up and my hair pulled back in a messy pony tail. On the way into the building I walked through a cloud of smoke from someone smoking (their nurses to be exact!) As we talked about some symptoms I had she said "well one thing you should do is quit smoking" and I was so baffled. I have never smoked cigarettes a day in my life because they have killed 3 family members. So I tell her this and she said "are you sure? I could smell smoke when I came in" I was so livid. I told her it was her staff. I did wonder though had I been in my professional clothing and made up would she have just assumed I smoked or maybe would she have asked me if I lived with a smoker. It was interesting though.

Wow! I think I will put on my most professional-looking outfit, and put a little more effort into my hair and makeup. I need all the help I can get since I've already had one doctor dismiss my concerns.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...