Autism and fiction?

[Lecka]

http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/about-aspergers-m/girls-and-women-who-have-aspergers

 

I identify with a lot of this. I was a great reader and had a deep inner life, I was very interested in science fiction, and I had an interest in a foreign country.

 

So, fiction is meaningful to me, and I expect it to be at least accessible to my kids. They are not drawn to it like I was, but even is smaller and less-intense doses it can still be part of their lives, and I think fiction gives so much perspective about the lives of other people. I consider myself someone who has learned so much from reading fiction, and I think I would have a lot harder time without insights I don't know if I would have picked up on in any other way.

 

At the same time -- I think now there are things like Social Thinking materials, books about "the hidden curriculum," books by people like Temple Grandin, etc, and so I think there are a lot more options for kids today. Also I think parents and teachers are aware of a need to do more and help more, that I think goes a long way.

 

Anyway -- when it comes to my son who has autism, I want him to like fiction. At this point it is something he enjoys as a way to spend time with me, and he likes funny parts and silly parts, and he likes it when two characters are friends and have a friendly way of being together and enjoying each other's company.

 

He likes to see what will happen in stories.

 

When we read stories with a plot twist, he likes to either see it coming, or find it clever.

 

This makes me really happy, I enjoy sharing it with him. And he has come a long way for us to be able to have a pleasant story time, he used to find it so frustrating and difficult.

 

But at this point, I don't think that fiction is going to be for him what it was for me. I don't think it is going to be a window into other people's minds and thought process for him. It just doesn't seem to be going in that direction at this point.

 

I like our story time anyway, though, and I think it is helpful for him too in learning, but it is not something where I think it is of overwhelming value for him.

 

I am really curious how much other people value fiction for their kids with autism. If they aren't that interested, do you care? Do you find it is particularly helpful? If there is something you want to work on, and there are 5 general options, are you drawn to the option of "talk about it during story time"?

 

For my son, he is 8 right now, and there is an older boy everyone thinks is similar to him. This boy is in middle school now and can read Encyclopedia Brown books for pleasure.

 

I would LOVE this outcome for my son. I deeply aspire to this outcome. Not specifically Encyclopedia Brown, but some fairly similar series, and for my son to be able to read for pleasure.

 

Is this kind of thing meaningful to other parents?

 

If not, do you think it is honestly not meaningful for kids, they aren't missing anything, or there are other things that are more valuable to do instead?

 

There are definitely some things I don't do that are valuable to other people, that just aren't as valuable to me, and I think things like "sure, it would be nice, but I consider it optional," and I am curious if people decide priorities like this based mainly on personal preferences, or mainly on what they think will be most practical for their kids.

[nature girl]

Do you think he might enjoy narrative nonfiction? There are books on space exploration, dinosaurs, animal friendships, etc., with stories that read almost like fiction. It's a great way to understand different cultures, lives similar and different from his own...and it may be more interesting to him, knowing it's real. You could also try watching movies based on books, before reading the books themselves, to make him feel more of a connection to the story.

[WoolC]

http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/about-aspergers-m/girls-and-women-who-have-aspergers

 

I identify with a lot of this. I was a great reader and had a deep inner life, I was very interested in science fiction, and I had an interest in a foreign country.

 

So, fiction is meaningful to me, and I expect it to be at least accessible to my kids. They are not drawn to it like I was, but even is smaller and less-intense doses it can still be part of their lives, and I think fiction gives so much perspective about the lives of other people. I consider myself someone who has learned so much from reading fiction, and I think I would have a lot harder time without insights I don't know if I would have picked up on in any other way.

 

At the same time -- I think now there are things like Social Thinking materials, books about "the hidden curriculum," books by people like Temple Grandin, etc, and so I think there are a lot more options for kids today. Also I think parents and teachers are aware of a need to do more and help more, that I think goes a long way.

 

Anyway -- when it comes to my son who has autism, I want him to like fiction. At this point it is something he enjoys as a way to spend time with me, and he likes funny parts and silly parts, and he likes it when two characters are friends and have a friendly way of being together and enjoying each other's company.

 

He likes to see what will happen in stories.

 

When we read stories with a plot twist, he likes to either see it coming, or find it clever.

 

This makes me really happy, I enjoy sharing it with him. And he has come a long way for us to be able to have a pleasant story time, he used to find it so frustrating and difficult.

 

But at this point, I don't think that fiction is going to be for him what it was for me. I don't think it is going to be a window into other people's minds and thought process for him. It just doesn't seem to be going in that direction at this point.

 

I like our story time anyway, though, and I think it is helpful for him too in learning, but it is not something where I think it is of overwhelming value for him.

 

I am really curious how much other people value fiction for their kids with autism. If they aren't that interested, do you care? Do you find it is particularly helpful? If there is something you want to work on, and there are 5 general options, are you drawn to the option of "talk about it during story time"?

 

For my son, he is 8 right now, and there is an older boy everyone thinks is similar to him. This boy is in middle school now and can read Encyclopedia Brown books for pleasure.

 

I would LOVE this outcome for my son. I deeply aspire to this outcome. Not specifically Encyclopedia Brown, but some fairly similar series, and for my son to be able to read for pleasure.

 

Is this kind of thing meaningful to other parents?

 

If not, do you think it is honestly not meaningful for kids, they aren't missing anything, or there are other things that are more valuable to do instead?

 

There are definitely some things I don't do that are valuable to other people, that just aren't as valuable to me, and I think things like "sure, it would be nice, but I consider it optional," and I am curious if people decide priorities like this based mainly on personal preferences, or mainly on what they think will be most practical for their kids.

I find the value of stories to be tremendous for my son with autism and my NT son alike. I've noticed that my ds on the spectrum is more likely to pick up a lego encyclopedia or nonfiction science reader with lots of pictures just to look through on his own as opposed to fiction (though this is my struggling reader) but he loves our family read aloud time.

 

I can't say that I've found it helpful for targeting specific problems with my son. I have found it to spark imaginative play, to give us another way to connect as a family and to make comparisons in our everyday life. We talk a lot about what a character should do and think of the possible consequences for various decisions. We find the idea of building a family culture around books as espoused by Sarah McKenzie, Cindy Rollins, etc to be incredibly inspiring and valuable.

 

So, yes I would love if my son became an avid reader as he grows, but realistically, I will be happy if he will listen to audio books, continue read aloud times with the family and enjoy story telling.

 

Now if listening to family read alouds were frustrating for my son I don't know how much I would push it. I think I would stick to short, engaging stories. I would limit screens and other highly stimulating forms of entertainment to make reading more enjoyable.

[Lecka]

Now that I think about it, I have read narrative non-fiction about things like seasons, going camping, seeing fireflies, going to a beach, going to a firehouse, and some things like that.

 

He doesn't really like new things unless he already know a little about them. And some things are hard to introduce.

 

He also has a low vocabulary which is a catch-22 because it is very, very hard when even basic things will have a lot of new vocabulary words involved. Vocabulary is his lowest score. But at the same time, I want to improve his vocabulary!!!!!!! It just is a slow process, because if there is too much then he can't learn anything.

 

But maybe I am more balanced than I was thinking, and it just doesn't look like it did with my other kids.

 

I do have a stack of "Who Would Win" books in my basement that my daughter liked, too, and he might like those now.

 

He also just told me (I just picked him up from day camp) that he watched a Wild Kratts movie, and he liked it. I know they have books.

 

I think what is getting me is my daughter liked Wild Kratts 2 years ago, and he didn't like it then. But if he likes it now then I can try again.

 

I can talk to my other kids about watching Magic School Bus, also. That is how they got exposed to a lot of things. In the past he didn't like it but maybe he would now.

 

I haven't seen the family reading culture books. They sound up my alley!

 

My kids are all within 3 1/2 years, but I usually don't have family read-alouds. Sometimes they will all listen to whatever I am reading Eli. They still like some storybooks when they are in the mood. Then right now I have one reading Dork Diaries and one reading The Hobbit. It has ended up with me having some really good 1:1 with each of my kids, but then it is only here and there for other things. And we all hate for Eli to be left out, and my older son is very sensitive to this too, so a book he couldn't keep up with wouldn't be very nice, but he just isn't at the level where my other kids would be very engaged.

 

Even with high-quality picture books like Jan Brett, those are still harder for Eli, except for the Gingerbread Boy and The Mitten and The Hat. These are fine with my daughter but she is engaged by the ones too hard for Eli.

 

He has a history of tuning out (or something, I don't really know, but maybe tuning it out) language and so I do not want to have him listen along with harder books unless he wants to. But he mostly needs to be engaged and not along-for-the-ride, because I don't want to risk him getting in a habit of tuning out language when it is too hard.

 

I think though, with the progress he has made with fiction, maybe I can go back and really look at some non-fiction type things my other kids liked when they were in pre-school and Kindergarten, and look for more kinds of non-fiction (like Lego books), too. I have been thinking of just a certain kind of non-fiction. They should have simpler vocabulary words, too.

[Lecka]

I talked to my kids, and they are happy to watch some Magic School Bus and label some vocabulary words as they are on screen. I think it will go a long way.

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[Lecka]

I have not heard of the Skybrary! That looks cool!!!!!

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[Lecka]

I love Reading Rainbow.

 

For my other kids, my daughter's first chapter book I read to her was The BFG, and my son's was Fantastic Mr. Fox. Then we watched the movies. So fun.

 

My daughter has been reading a lot today, I hate it sometimes when they seem far apart. They are going to be in separate schools next year, too, but back in the same school for 4th grade.

[kbutton]

We value fiction, but my son will still "get" something from most books, even when he is missing things here or there (and I missed things too as a kid), or it will make more sense to him later, and he'll think back on it. We are somewhat stalled on reading level due to language issues and social skills, but not everyone reads challenging fiction for fun. He definitely has a range he can read for fun. I have a range I choose to read for fun, and if I read something challenging, it's probably non-fiction. I read for escape, lol! 

 

He tends to like biography-ish stuff where people tell their thoughts about things as well as facts. He also really enjoys stories about horses and some other animals--the Freddy books (about a pig--it explains a LOT of social stuff), Marguerite Henry, Black Beauty, etc. They would be too much now for your son, but those sorts of stories at a different level might be interesting to him.

 

I definitely see some quirks in what makes more or less sense to him, but he (fortunately) does get something from reading and discussing books even if he's just listening to a discussion. 

 

I think if it's important to you, pursue it as much as you want to, as much as you both enjoy it, and as much as it doesn't take away from something else that is crucial. 

 

From what you describe, I wonder if your son is at a point where he's matured quite a bit, but his next point where he'll hang around and enjoy something is sort of between "typical" levels of growth, and trying to find just right materials is a little tricky right now. It's cool that he's liking certain shows, and that your other kids will accommodate that. Very sweet.

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[Lecka]

Thanks for the suggestions :)

 

Well, I did get out my little stack of "Who Would Win" by Jerry Palotta, which were my daughter's favorites.

 

And first he said no, he didn't want to look at them, but I pointed out one had a lion, and he rides lion bus now (they put a lion sticker on the bus, and he has a tag on his backpack with a picture of a lion), and he was like "oh, yes, I would like to look at the lion one." Then he was very interested.

 

I think his overall language level has come up, without me realizing that it means he will have a good attitude with non-fiction, too.

 

I have seen the Magic School Bus books, but I didn't know they went along with episodes. That is just the kind of thing he likes. His first books were about episodes of Diego and Dora.

 

I looked up the Freddy the Pig books, too, and they look great! I had not heard of them before. I will keep them in mind :)

[Lecka]

I am ending up trying Magic Tree House books plus Fact Trackers.

[Amy Elizabeth]

I don't have time to read all of the replies right now, but as someone on the spectrum and with two kids on the spectrum... I think fiction is very important! You can tell a lot about who people are based on the stories they tell. (how's that for an analytical way to view something seemingly no analytical! lol) Growing up my lowest scores were always vocabulary, but my daughter who is my mini-me, at 8 scored at a 7the grade level for vocabulary. When I was in school they did all the vocabulary building books and such, but with my daughter, all we do is read great books and have her narrate back to me each chapter as we read. That's it! Many of the books we read are audiobooks, and I completely count that as reading (unless I am specifically look at her reading fluency) because our comprehension and reading fluency abilities are NOT evenly matched. I can read very well as an adult, but I am a VERY slow reader. I read at exactly half the speed of other adults at my education level so if there is an audiobook option, I often choose to take it and do not apologize for it. That is how my daughter learned to love books...listening to audiobooks as she went to sleep!

 

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[Lecka]

Good to know :)

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[Lecka]

Thanks :)

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[PeterPan]

I don't have time to read all of the replies right now, but as someone on the spectrum and with two kids on the spectrum... I think fiction is very important! You can tell a lot about who people are based on the stories they tell. (how's that for an analytical way to view something seemingly no analytical! lol) Growing up my lowest scores were always vocabulary, but my daughter who is my mini-me, at 8 scored at a 7the grade level for vocabulary. When I was in school they did all the vocabulary building books and such, but with my daughter, all we do is read great books and have her narrate back to me each chapter as we read. That's it! Many of the books we read are audiobooks, and I completely count that as reading (unless I am specifically look at her reading fluency) because our comprehension and reading fluency abilities are NOT evenly matched. I can read very well as an adult, but I am a VERY slow reader. I read at exactly half the speed of other adults at my education level so if there is an audiobook option, I often choose to take it and do not apologize for it. That is how my daughter learned to love books...listening to audiobooks as she went to sleep!

 

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I kind of wanted to go into this, because I didn't want you to think people weren't replying. We use a lot of audiobooks too, and like your dd my ds has that off the charts vocabulary level. I think when you pair that with a gifted IQ you get some pretty astonishing seeming skills or splinter skills. Like if you give my ds a reading sample and ask him to read and answer multiple choice questions (the way you'd technically gauge comprehension for something like the DAR, which is what we were doing), he's going to have pretty phenomenal comprehension. But if you ask him to READ something, he's going to wilt pretty quickly. When you dig in on language, you find he's *actually* struggling pretty significantly, enough that an SLP recently coded him F80.2, receptive/expressive language delay. And yet you don't look at that DAR and think that, kwim? 

 

With him, I think it's the giftedness plus the exposures. He's just got splinter skills and funky remaining weaknesses. And I guess what I was curious about is what tools you've chosen to run, since you're a psych, since you have access to things... Do you still have access to things? Like if you wanted to run the CELF or CASL, could you? 

 

For my ds, it shows up in really detailed language testing. It shows up if you do a (now the name is slipping my mind, MLU=mean length utterance). With him, he'll be really short and rigid, same constructions all the time, for just general conversation where you're requiring conversation, back and forth. Then, when he seems to be on his own, just saying what is in his mind, he'll be more scripting (repeating content from tv, etc.) and it goes up. So which is he? He's both. 

 

So me, I view this whole fiction comprehension thing very cautiously. I see so many factors going on in my ds, and sometimes I think oh that's not an issue only to find out it IS an issue when we dig deeper. 

 

I agree, that's a really great thing if she's narrating! Might be some girl verbal strengths balancing things out there. It's definitely something to continue to nurture. I'm not really a fan of open-ended narrations, because they don't let you ascertain whether the dc is getting the most important details. You can tell it for yourself, but I'm just saying in general it's easy to say anything goes, which doesn't really serve them well in the long-run. In the long-run, we want to see that they're beginning to develop a sense of main idea, etc. etc.

 

Also, you mentioned fluency. My ds really benefited from the RAN/RAS work we did. It's free, easy, fast, and it was really good for us. It's one of those things that can't hurt if you think there's any indication for it. Again, you might have access to a tool like the CTOPP that could kick you out a RAN/RAS score to decide if it's worthwhile to work on.

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[Lecka]

https://amongstlovelythings.com/39/

 

This is a podcast about reading aloud, with Cheryl Swopes. Very inspiring!!!!!!

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[PeterPan]

Hey, I think I'm ready to discuss this now! I just wasn't before. I think you had the question before I had the question, and when you don't have the question you aren't pondering the answer, kwim? :)

 

Sigh. Your original question was whether kids with autism actually engage with fiction, whether are strings with that (like it has to be chained to a special interest), or whether there is some magic trick or thing that you do and SHAZAM they just start engaging with fiction. And then there's that even bigger question, like does it MATTER, does it hurt anything if we DON'T avidly pursue fiction, how diverse does the fiction need to be, could it be niched in a genre that clicks for them, etc...

 

And like I said, those weren't my questions before, and they're becoming my questions now for ds. Like we read a lot of people here saying their dc with autism *only* reads non-fiction. Not slamming it, fine, taking it, and that would be moving up for my ds, sure! But then you see this list of outcomes forming:

 

-reads only non-fiction

-reads mainly non-fiction and required fiction

-reads main non-fiction but genre-specific or chained interest fiction

-reads balance of fiction and non-fiction

-reads mostly fiction

 

So I'm building a continuum there. And look how screwy it is that, once again, the NTs of the planet decide what is GOOD to read and what isn't good enough. So the NT el ed majors decide yes, the world revolves around fiction, must read fiction, "normal" people like fiction! Meanwhile, in the continual irony of life, anybody who is different and is gungho for non-fiction gets called weird and eventually handed a PhD. Sure you can get a PhD with fiction, but it's not like non-fictio is invaluable or some mediocre, non-choice. It just doesn't happen to be what the elementary school system values.

 

So I think we could ponder WHY we give a rip if they ever read Encyclopedia Brown. I'm just thinking out loud here. Why does it matter?

 

-ways to go to sleep (relaxation)

-things to do when bored (entertainment)

-things to have in common with people people

-vicarious social experiencing to grow as a social thinker

 

And those are all good things! My ds goes to bed with audiobooks or me reading aloud, but he actually struggles with having alternative ways to fall asleep. I think that's a really valid thing to say getting reading on board would give him a good skill there. Does it need to be fiction? Non-fiction might keep someone awake, seems to me. 

 

My ds has a lot of times when he's bored, and I point out to him we need to continue to work on his reading, that those are times when other people might make the choice to read a book for 1-2 hours a day.

 

Things to have in common with other people. Now that sounds laudable, but if the reading levels are lagging or the topics are very out of the norm, it might not work out anyway. And then you've got the question of language skills to be ABLE to talk about what they're reading about. My best hope there was jokes. Like read joke books, be able to tell the jokes to people... But for my ds to read a fiction book and engage in the plot and come out telling me about this crazy thing that happened, I'd be shocked. I'm not sure he even does that with movies or audiobooks or other fiction narrative media, kwim? That reflects our language issues, not maybe an absolute wall of what CAN be.

 

Reading for social exploration and social thinking, hmm. Nice thought, but the teacher can just as easily read that. Short is better. Read alouds are better. That just requires a lot of maturity, like high school level, to be reading and reflecting. Fat chance I guess. For my ds it's working better to have that as book chats over the Bible.

 

So I don't have a really great answer there. Those were factors I was considering. I need to make a choice whether I might go more toward non-fiction and not worry so much about fiction, or whether it's worth it to continue to engage with fiction. I think, just me personally, I'd like to see him engaging with text *avidly*, and I think I'm flexible on genre if he's engaging with text avidly. Then we can balance out the genre with read alouds and things. But even getting to engaging with text avidly is tricky. 

 

You could have the corrolary question, is it worth it to keep working on fiction in read alouds, which is what I think your Cheryl Swopes podcast interview was getting at. I think yes, definitely yes. There you've got an adult and you're working on social thinking and language skills. It's good. 

 

I found Fountas and Pinnell at our teacher's college library. I can see why ps kids can't read, if this is how they're being taught. It's total bunk for actual reading instruction (no phonics, nothing explicit). But for a very tightly controlled progression of sentence length, etc., brilliant. The books they use that are specifically labeled for the kits are adorable, with inferences, irony, etc. I've got the manual and am trying to read through it, but it *looks* like they're focusing more on word recognition and fluency than they are on reading comprehension, at least for the lower level. I glanced through the gr 3-6 manual, and it had more goodies for comprehension.

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[Amy Elizabeth]

I kind of wanted to go into this, because I didn't want you to think people weren't replying. We use a lot of audiobooks too, and like your dd my ds has that off the charts vocabulary level. I think when you pair that with a gifted IQ you get some pretty astonishing seeming skills or splinter skills. Like if you give my ds a reading sample and ask him to read and answer multiple choice questions (the way you'd technically gauge comprehension for something like the DAR, which is what we were doing), he's going to have pretty phenomenal comprehension. But if you ask him to READ something, he's going to wilt pretty quickly. When you dig in on language, you find he's *actually* struggling pretty significantly, enough that an SLP recently coded him F80.2, receptive/expressive language delay. And yet you don't look at that DAR and think that, kwim?

 

With him, I think it's the giftedness plus the exposures. He's just got splinter skills and funky remaining weaknesses. And I guess what I was curious about is what tools you've chosen to run, since you're a psych, since you have access to things... Do you still have access to things? Like if you wanted to run the CELF or CASL, could you?

 

For my ds, it shows up in really detailed language testing. It shows up if you do a (now the name is slipping my mind, MLU=mean length utterance). With him, he'll be really short and rigid, same constructions all the time, for just general conversation where you're requiring conversation, back and forth. Then, when he seems to be on his own, just saying what is in his mind, he'll be more scripting (repeating content from tv, etc.) and it goes up. So which is he? He's both.

 

So me, I view this whole fiction comprehension thing very cautiously. I see so many factors going on in my ds, and sometimes I think oh that's not an issue only to find out it IS an issue when we dig deeper.

 

I agree, that's a really great thing if she's narrating! Might be some girl verbal strengths balancing things out there. It's definitely something to continue to nurture. I'm not really a fan of open-ended narrations, because they don't let you ascertain whether the dc is getting the most important details. You can tell it for yourself, but I'm just saying in general it's easy to say anything goes, which doesn't really serve them well in the long-run. In the long-run, we want to see that they're beginning to develop a sense of main idea, etc. etc.

 

Also, you mentioned fluency. My ds really benefited from the RAN/RAS work we did. It's free, easy, fast, and it was really good for us. It's one of those things that can't hurt if you think there's any indication for it. Again, you might have access to a tool like the CTOPP that could kick you out a RAN/RAS score to decide if it's worthwhile to work on.

Sorry, just seeing this. I used the WIAT the last time I tested them. Yes, I still have access to tests, but it is not considered accurate if I test them myself... But I do it anyway because it is just for my own purposes. There are limitations to any test. What the WIAT tells me is how they compare in categories to kids their own age or grade level....which gives me an idea on where we are high or low so we can try to balance our skills out a bit if possible. With regards to narration...in a way it is open ended...but also not... The end goal is where the difference lies. I want to see their understanding of what they hear improve...not for them to have a certain level of understanding for each book. As long as they continue to climb their own ladder of education, they have met my expectations. With regards to fluency, we work on fluency every day, and I suspect her fluency will eventually surpass mine since I did not benefit from this type of education as a kid.

 

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[PeterPan]

AE, I hadn't thought to use test scores in that way. Interesting!

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[Lecka]

http://www.readingrockets.org/teaching/reading101-course/modules/comprehension/comprehension-practice

 

I am reading this today -- about good comprehension practices.

 

Why am I bad at this, lolololol.

 

This is for when the child is reading, but there is a suggestion to highlight pronouns with a color for each character, so kids can tell who is talking (or being referred to).

 

It sounds like a good idea to me, maybe useful for someone ;)

[Lecka]

http://www.readingrockets.org/strategies/story_maps

 

And these some graphic organizers from the same link.

[PeterPan]

You can make figures with clothespins and felt, then reread the book while moving the figures around. We did that for ds with a Shakespeare picture book where the characters and scenes kept changing. It would work for the pronoun issue too. Or do GPP if he actually needs pronoun/antecedent work. GPP is killer for that.

[PeterPan]

http://www.readingrockets.org/strategies/story_maps

 

And these some graphic organizers from the same link.

 

Those are really interesting ideas! I want to look through them, but some of those, like the jigsaw, are really interesting ways to interact with a book. It gets my mind going with all the things we could do. 

 

If you look at something like http://www.evan-moor.com/p/295/how-to-report-on-books-grades-1-2  the expectations for the age are kind of low. You might not need to do ALL the skills shown on the Reading Rockets site. Those might be to get you through gr 6 reading comprehension, where a dc would have more complex understanding. Like gr1 common core reading comprehension goals are something like beginning/middle/end and be able to say the point of the story or the moral. Gr2 standards were things like really basic perspective taking. 

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