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How Good is Good Enough for Merit Aid


Chris in VA
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I'm going to delete so pls don't quote. 

 

Ds went to VCU and graduated. He had a super crappy SAT and homeschooled high school with only one outside class, and limited extracurriculars--but he got in, and he got out. He had one small scholarship, and we paid for school through home equity line of credit. Still paying $50K. Can't do that again. 

 

Dd has straight A's so far (not sure of her actual gradepoint, but it's around 4.3 or so). She made 5s on her two history AP tests, and a 4 on her Eng Comp AP. She'll have 3 APs this year and I predict will do well. Her first try at the SAT yielded a 1380, which included a 780 English score--she thinks she can study a bit and raise the math. She plays two instruments, has one leadership position, has membership in Natl Honor Society, French Honor Society, and a music honor society. She works two very small jobs (each once a week) and tutors for her local elementary school. 

 

SO--

 

Is she "good enough" for merit aid at schools that are not top tier but still pretty good schools--James Madison in VA, for example--

 

I just don't know what to expect. She wants to try looking at UNCG in Greensboro and App State. And she needs a few more school choices in case she doesn't get in. She is going for music education and isn't super strong in viola, but will probably have an acceptable (but not outstanding) audition. Because viola is always in demand, it's likely they will throw a couple thou her way, so there's that. 

 

I'm worried she won't get any help and we won't be able to afford school. She can go for two small scholarships locally--adding up to about 3200 dollars, but that's a drop in the bucket at some of these out of state places. She's NOT living at home or going online. 

 

I'm just...worked up about it. 

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Your DD is a great student with significant achievements/activities.  Unfortunately, it's a numbers game and there huge numbers of similar students also applying to the universities.  Bluntly, it is very difficult to get enough merit at an out-of-state public school to make it as affordable as in-state public options.

 

Try searching the websites of the schools of interest.  If they have any scholarships that are assured for stats, it should be on there.  Competitive scholarships are the huge unknown.  For the best odds, your DD should apply to schools where she is in the top of their accepted student pool.

 

Good luck.

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I have a kid also looking at music programs.  I think it is fine to be frank with your young adult - at least we are.  I'm telling my kid we can look at all the options and you can apply.  But for an undergraduate degree, money is going to be a big factor.  We are certainly not going into debt for it.  We have a number we can cover and a small number that we are comfortable with him in loans.  For many with music degrees if you really want to do it, you need a masters anyway.  I'm telling him to possibly save higher end school options for grad school when work study is a real option.  My kid is just going to be a junior, so we'll see where the cards fall.  My kid has a strong ACT score already and I suspect it will be even stronger in a year.  He has potential to do fantastic auditions depending on what he auditions in (he plays piano, guitar, and sings).  So I hope some merit is there, but who knows.  I want him to be happy with where he goes but I want to be realistic too.

 

Are the places she looking state schools with instate tuition options for you?  I'd make sure you have a couple state options with in state and just be very frank about what you can and cannot do.  It sounds like she could be in a good position for merit money.  Our state how gotten more stingy with merit in recent years so sometimes kids that have great academics do better financially at a private school.  All you can do is apply and see where the numbers fall and try not to get too attached before you see them.

 

I think going into debt as a parent is not a great idea.  You're also doing your kids a kindness by being well prepared for retirement.

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Thank you. There is only one instate public school that offers a decent music ed degree (ok there are two, but she doesn't want to live in Richmond). It would be rpughly 20K to attend it, and again, we feel she could easily get about 3 to 4K in scholarships at this point. We have very little saved through a 529 or whatever it is called--the educational savings acct. I just don't know how we are going to do this. I guess I will be working full time.

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I should say our retirement is not a problem. We have a livable pension coming, and our hpuse will be paid for in 5 years (we will sell it asap when dh leaves his current position because we currently live in a rectory and I never,ever want to live in the house we own.)

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Are there any live at home options where you are at for her?  Is she going to a B&M school and if so, is there an advisor there that might have recommendations?

 

I am not letting my son dismiss programs out of hand because he doesn't like the look of the town or the campus or whatever. I've heard music programs can be quite a bit about connecting with a faculty member or 2 more than anything else.  I guess I'd be touring and talking to faculty carefully and applying to get the real numbers if there is an in state program that might work even if it seems like not great at first glance for whatever reason. 

 

Part of our financial plan is to finish paying off our mortgage before our junior gets to college. 

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Honestly, we don't start with where they want to attend.  We start with where they can afford.  That means looking at schools where we know they will qualify for scholarships or are inexpensive to begin with.   If the school doesn't offer or advertise scholarship awards and amts (even if they are competitive and not automatic) or I can't find info through reliable places like CC, we strike them off the list.  

 

 

I don't know anything about Lee other than several musically talented students we knew attended.  COA is around $25,000/yr http://catalog.leeuniversity.edu/content.php?catoid=10&navoid=5598&hl  It looks like she would qualify for $10,000 freshman yr.  (It looks like it goes down sophomore.  I didn't read the entire page but you'd need to understand how it works.

 Presidential Scholarship is awarded to any student who has graduated from an approved high school and who scores 27-31 on the ACT or 1290-1440* total score on the SAT. This guaranteed scholarship award is $10,000 for the first year (two semesters) and $6,000 for the second year (two semesters). During the second year, Presidential Scholars are eligible for the Honor Scholarship in addition to the second year award, if he or she meets Honor Scholarship requirements. Students who enroll in another college/university before attending Lee University forfeit eligibility. Presidential scholarships are awarded by the Office of Admissions. )

 

 

Truman State is cheap for OOS and offers scholarships.  http://www.truman.edu/admission-cost/cost-aid/tuition-costs/ She would get an automatic $5000 (

36-29 $5,000/y

)and they offer competitive music scholarships.  With the $5000, costs would be around $18,000.  She might be eligible for more.

 

 

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Have you checked out the tuition for the NC schools? Dd is attending UNCSA as a music major, and we are paying less in tuition as an out-of-state student than we did for the year when she attended William & Mary as an in-state student!

 

Seriously, out-of-state tuition for NC schools is quite reasonable.

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We ran into that. DS had stellar SAT's, multiple AP's, and dual enrollment. He got into several top state schools, but zero merit aid. Most merit scholarships at some schools are also need-based, so that was the problem. 

 

If she doesn't want to go locally, you may be stuck. I guess you apply and hope!

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Some really good points brought up be previous posters! Now is the time to sit down with DD and discuss and do the research *together* and make a plan *together*. :)

 

How much debt will she be afford to pay back? Esp. if she'll need a Master's degree on top of a Bachelor's? The rule of thumb is no more than what your earnings would be for the first year of salary at the entry level for the degree. From the US Bureau of Labor info and figures (info about the Music industry, and statistics about post-secondary Art/Drama/Music teachers), Music Ed. is an almost flatline growth field -- so, difficulty in finding a job -- and with only a Bachelor's degree, that looks like it might be no more than $35,000/year. That suggests that it would be very difficult to pay off debt AND live on your own AND save for a graduate degree. Understanding that those are realities, discuss now what options might be for dealing with these factors.

 

Come at it from the money-angle -- find schools with generous aid, and then narrow down to those with Music. Ed. degrees and good Music departments:

- FinAid: Full Tuition Academic Scholarships

- Yola Site: Automatic Full Tuition / Full Ride Scholarships

- Prep Scholar: Guaranteed Scholarships Based on SAT/ACT Scores

- College Matchmaker: 134 College Scholarships Awarded Solely for High Grades and SAT/ACT Scores

Search Engine website ($8 registration fee) for automatic scholarships (partial and full) based on student test scores and GPA

 

Tuition-free colleges:

The Best Schools Providing Free Tuition (note: usually still paying $10K/year for room & board)

12 Tuition Free Colleges

 

More options:

- College Xpress -- list of colleges that "go the extra mile" to make it financially possible to attend

"s/o cautionary tale: high cost of college -- a brainstorm $$ idea thread" -- past thread with alternative / outside-the-box ideas for funding college

 

Look for colleges that allow "stacking" (stack outside scholarships on top of whatever aid the school offers, instead of the school reducing aid by the amount of the outside scholarships).

Edited by Lori D.
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I wish I had good news. We've found merit aid to be something akin to slot machines in Vegas. You just have NO way to predict it.

 

I highly recommend if your are trying to keep her debt low that you look at out of state private schools not out of state public. Even though the price tags are higher, you might find that the scholarship pool is bigger by a large amount off setting the higher price, plus do to that cost they may also give some need based aid since you'll look needier on paper.

 

Next bit of advice, pretty much stay away from looking at schools in the Midwest/Great Lakes Region because when they were hit so hard first with the loss of manufacturing then with the mortgage fiasco, most of the schools saw a lost of revenue and cut their scholarships to the bone. For example, $4000.00 a year is about what you'd get at state school here with those stats. That's for anything from an in-state cost to attend of $20,000 (this includes room and board) to $29,000.00. For private schools, when our eldest boy was applying he had similar stats and received a half ride at Alma College - AWESOME LAC with an amazing Fine Arts department - but that was on a $42,000 cost to attend. So with a $5500.00 Stafford loan there was still $15,500.00 to come up with and the scholarship was not going to go up though tuition and fees were guaranteed to hike each year. He opted for a state school where with his scholarship and living at home, we only have to pay $2500.00 a semester plus his gas and car insurance.

 

Even U of Alabama which is known for great merit aid cut theirs for 2017 which tells me that likely those will be cut again in 2018. Estimating the cuts, took them from a definite option for our youngest to a "mostly likely can't afford it" school.

 

I wish I had better news. I am going back to work to pay for college. 

 

 

Edited by FaithManor
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It's always tough when dreams are dashed.

 

My father assured me that a specific account of theirs was set aside for my children's education. Guess what, that was never laid out in the will. My dad died first, and when my mother died, the accounts were all joint with my sibling, so they got everything. My sibling originally said they would divide everything down the road, but six years later, nope. They are aware of our financial difficulties.

 

I did inherit an IRA, but it just barely covers commuting to a state school. Loans are out at present, and the budget doesn't flex much.

 

Thankfully my offspring are happy with that, and we have solid commuter schools. Not everyone has that option.

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We ran into that. DS had stellar SAT's, multiple AP's, and dual enrollment. He got into several top state schools, but zero merit aid. Most merit scholarships at some schools are also need-based, so that was the problem. 

 

If she doesn't want to go locally, you may be stuck. I guess you apply and hope!

 

Between our boys they applied to and were accepted by UNC Chapel Hill, Wilmington, Greensboro and App. Although both of them have stellar academics and DS21 also had stellar extra curriculars, neither was offered any merit money at any state school. But our EFC is astronomically high (high enough that being full pay at a state school looked really, really good to us) and I've always wondered if our having a high EFC didn't hurt them in that regard.

 

OTOH, the good but not great CTCL private school DS18 applied to threw merit money at him hand over fist.

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Although I've got to believe you couldn't have been thinking about it in these terms at the time, the decision to go into major debt for a mediocre student son and do nothing for a high-achieving daughter is...... hard for me to process. Do you work? If not, could you start? Or lower expenses?

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Although I've got to believe you couldn't have been thinking about it in these terms at the time, the decision to go into major debt for a mediocre student son and do nothing for a high-achieving daughter is...... hard for me to process. Do you work? If not, could you start? Or lower expenses?

Just because someone made one mistake doesn't mean you need to make 2 to keep things "fair". I think a young adult can discuss the financial realities of college choices and a family can move forward together accordingly. A high end LAC experience is not a birth right no matter how high achieving a student is. And the OP didn't say they weren't planning on doing nothing.

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Just because someone made one mistake doesn't mean you need to make 2 to keep things "fair". I think a young adult can discuss the financial realities of college choices and a family can move forward together accordingly. A high end LAC experience is not a birth right no matter how high achieving a student is. And the OP didn't say they weren't planning on doing nothing.

 

It's just hard for me to hear about because I also was at the wrong end of a gendered differential in parental support. I don't see why you have scare quotes on "fair." Even if there's no way to correct it now, that doesn't make it fair. I do think there is a birth right to roughly equitable material treatment. I really hope it works out for OP's daughter.

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. Most merit scholarships at some schools are also need-based, so that was the problem. 

 

 At some schools, merit scholarships are connected to a need component.  However, at plenty of schools, merit is strictly based on merit and not connected to need at all.  If you make too much for need-based aid and need merit $$, you have to spend time researching schools that are generous with merit scholarships.  It eliminates all need-based only schools. 

 

 We've found merit aid to be something akin to slot machines in Vegas. You just have NO way to predict it....

 

Even U of Alabama which is known for great merit aid cut theirs for 2017 which tells me that likely those will be cut again in 2018. Estimating the cuts, took them from a definite option for our youngest to a "mostly likely can't afford it" school.

 

 

Our experience is different.  I have not found merit to be completely unpredictable if the schools' websites are clear about how merit is awarded. When schools specify the avg stats of recipients, post profiles of past winners, define $$ amt awards, etc., it is easier to assess the likelihood of being awarded scholarships.  The higher your student's profile is compared to the other top applicants, the more likely they are to be invited to compete for their scholarships.

 

I am not convinced that UA will alter their awards for 2018.  I think they are going to have to see how their altering of awards this yr impacts their applicant/attending pool.  If it lowers their admissions stats significantly, I doubt they will alter it next yr.  They will probably want to stabilize their applicant pool and become known for that award before they make any other alterations.  And UA is awesome about letting scholarships stack and increasing the $$ amt of dept awards from yr to yr.  One of ds's physics scholarships has almost doubled in value.

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I highly recommend if your are trying to keep her debt low that you look at out of state private schools not out of state public. Even though the price tags are higher, you might find that the scholarship pool is bigger by a large amount off setting the higher price, plus do to that cost they may also give some need based aid since you'll look needier on paper.

 

 

 

 

We found the above to be true.

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You've gotten plenty of good info from others, so I'll only address one point: I would suggest your daughter try the ACT if she hasn't already. Since she's especially strong in English/reading/writing (relative to her math score), it could be a better overall test result for her. A higher standardized test score is likely to improve her chances of merit money.

 

 

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Thank you. There is only one instate public school that offers a decent music ed degree (ok there are two, but she doesn't want to live in Richmond). It would be rpughly 20K to attend it, and again, we feel she could easily get about 3 to 4K in scholarships at this point. We have very little saved through a 529 or whatever it is called--the educational savings acct. I just don't know how we are going to do this. I guess I will be working full time.

You might see if she will take another look at Richmond.  My daughter, (with similar stats to yours) attended college there and received good merit aid. She took subsidized student loans only for three of five years (so a total of $20,000) and between the loan and her merit aid we paid less than $400 tuition and fees every semester.  We did have to pay room and board but she lived off campus (her choice) and our annual cost was about $10,000.

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Well we spent tbe afternoon looking at all the links from Lori D.lol Thanks so much! And she is going to have a look at Christopher Newport. We have terrible memories of a treatment center for our second ds in Newport News, and do not like the city, so dd didnt consider it previously, but it looks good on paper and we will visit while at our house which is two hpurs from there.

 

As far as helping my "mediocre" son, I am slightly offended, TBH.My son is an Aspie, homeschooled high school, and needed an extra year of college. He did extraordinarily well and will now be able to live independently, doing the work that is his passion. His outstanding character and unbelievable perseverance and just plain hard work made him desreving of a chance at higher education. Be very careful before judging,please. We feel our talented and academically stellar daughter is also deserving of our financial help. She will also get funds for her wedding. We try to give our kids what we can. I knew, however, that she was much more likely to get merit aid. Neither child had/has the option of going just anywhere; ds was only allowed to look at instate schools,and we have to see what aid is offered to dd. On top of that, during ds'college years, we were also paying for years of residential treatment and counseling and hospitalization for our middle son, so we had to take out home equity LOC loans to pay for eldest's university.

I recognize you were triggered, but please do not think we are unequal with our kids, or that our mediocre son has some advantage by being male.

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Agreeing - have her test-drive the ACT and see if that yields results that might be in her favor. Also - our experience with OOS private vs IS public is shared with those above - which blew me away when we started to realize that fact. My oldest is OOS private right now - even with her stellar stats, the IS public wound up being one of her MOST expensive options. WTH.  :huh:  :glare: 

 

Best of luck to her and to you guys figuring it all out! :)

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 At some schools, merit scholarships are connected to a need component.  However, at plenty of schools, merit is strictly based on merit and not connected to need at all.  If you make too much for need-based aid and need merit $$, you have to spend time researching schools that are generous with merit scholarships.  It eliminates all need-based only schools. 

 

If it is tied to need, IMHO it is NOT truly merit based - our state Us have some true merit based "dollars"  (percentage discounts of tuition) based on class rank, GPA, test scores, etc. 

 

Obviously, Harvard,  MIT,  etc will probably not offer merit unless your student earned some kind of life achievement (think Nobel Prize).

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Can she look at finishing her undergraduate degree in three years to decrease the cost by 25%?  At a college with generous APs credit policies, and maybe some DE classes at a CC over the summers, it is not that difficult to knock off a year in a lot of majors.  My daughter is graduating two years early because of AP and DE classes.  Her DE was from the same school from which she will graduate, so she obviously had no problems with the school's recognizing its own DE credits.  She also did a study abroad for credit and has received credit (just an hour or so, I think) for being a TA.  It can make a lot of sense to spend more money and time on grad school if you know that is going to be necessary.

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Chris,

 

I'm going to throw an odd one out. Longwood. It is not known for music, but it is known for teacher training and placement. It used to have some of the best scholarships for merit among state schools (a couple years ago a young man turned down WM to attend Longwood on a full (tuition, room and board) scholarship based on merit). It's small so individual attention is going to be available to strong students because they just stand out. 

 

I had wondered why you weren't looking at CNU. Everyone I know who has gone there loved it, but if the location is going to be difficult it makes sense to eliminate it. 

 

I've spent a lot trying to get my 2E kid on his feet. I'm not sure we are there yet, but I think he's moving in the right direction. You had big financial pressures when your ds was in school . I think the fact that he is working and living independently shows you taking on debt was not a waste. Also someone who has mediocre stats is not a mediocre kid. I know you know that. There are a lot of people who are raising kids who are able to follow the straight line path to an independent life. They don't get how families with different kids live. I say as little as I can sometimes because those who don't get it make stupid assumptions. 

 

Good luck.

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What about trying a cross-match with schools that offer guaranteed merit aid (links in my previous post) with the List of Colleges and University Schools of Music?

 

Or checking in to the College Data website financial info about these schools: "The Top 10 Hidden Gem Music Schools in the US"?

 

 

ETA:

 

PS -- and, back to your original question of "how much merit aid to expect" (and therefore, what will you need to plan on financially -- like, how much will you have to work and earn to pay for college, if you go back to work):

 

From the College Data info on the schools you mentioned in your original post (James Madison and UNCG), the merit awards look like they run between $4000-$10,000, which, depending on whether you are in-state or out-of-state, and assuming she will also have the full Cost Of Attendance (COA) -- i.e., need room & board -- those awards would cover between 15% to 35% of your COA.

 

If the school allows "stacking" of scholarships, then outside scholarships of $3000-$5000 would provide another 105-15% of COA. If DD does earn some outside scholarships, would they be 1-time awards? Or renewable? Something to plan for financially, esp. if additional scholarships are only going to be in place for the first year...

 

 

Just a general observation from what I see of of the students of people on these boards: it seems like the average amount of aid for good students runs at about half of tuition. (Yes, there area some who have landed full tuition or even full ride scholarships, but that is not the average. ;) )

Edited by Lori D.
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My nephew will be a sophomore at CNU and really loves it. He is studying CS - something IT related. Last year he played violin in the orchestra and liked it, but he said he thought that music was just ok at CNU. He won't be doing orchestra again this year because of a scheduling conflict, and he doesn't act like he will miss it. His favorite prof is his Chinese instructor; he traveled to China this month with her and some of his class.

 

I don't know how music is at Liberty, but they just got a beautiful new music building, and they give a lot of merit aid. It may be worth checking out.

 

I hope you find a good, affordable fit for your daughter.

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I've been looking for potential schools for a young man in a similar situation. He won't qualify for need-based aid, but can't expect much if any contribution from his parents, so he needs major merit aid/scholarships. His test scores are top tier, his extracurriculars are strong, but his GPA, while good, is not tippy top, and his course rigor is good-not-great.

 

The lists of schools that offer merit aid for particular stats (I think LoriD posted that above) are helpful. I've also been looking at the websites of various schools trying to pin down ones that offer large competitive scholarships for which he could be in the running. His safety will need to be the in-state university, though for various valid reasons he hopes to attend elsewhere.

 

Casting a wide net with applications can be helpful when there are competitive merit scholarships in play, though you run the risk of applicant burnout with multiple essays that need to be targeted to each school. Schools want to offer these scholarships to students that they think are likely to attend, so showing significant interest in the school as early as possible is important, in my opinion.

 

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As far as helping my "mediocre" son, I am slightly offended, TBH.My son is an Aspie, homeschooled high school, and needed an extra year of college. He did extraordinarily well and will now be able to live independently, doing the work that is his passion. His outstanding character and unbelievable perseverance and just plain hard work made him desreving of a chance at higher education. Be very careful before judging,please. We feel our talented and academically stellar daughter is also deserving of our financial help. She will also get funds for her wedding. We try to give our kids what we can. I knew, however, that she was much more likely to get merit aid. Neither child had/has the option of going just anywhere; ds was only allowed to look at instate schools,and we have to see what aid is offered to dd. On top of that, during ds'college years, we were also paying for years of residential treatment and counseling and hospitalization for our middle son, so we had to take out home equity LOC loans to pay for eldest's university.

I recognize you were triggered, but please do not think we are unequal with our kids, or that our mediocre son has some advantage by being male.

 

I'm sorry you felt you had to justify. I can speak as another parent who made choices for one child that I would not/cannot make for the second. In our case, it was our daughter on whose behalf we borrowed a ton of money to cover tuition for an out-of-state private college. At the time, it seemed to make sense. However, the hard reality is that our financial situation did not keep up as well as I had hoped, and we are now, six years after she graduated, still a good seven to 10 years away from paying off all of those loans. 

 

By the time it was my son's turn for college, we realized that we simply could not follow the same path. It had nothing to do with preferring one child over the other or their relative abilities or their genders or anything; it was just life. Fortunately, his needs were different, meaning he had more options. And I had a lot more understanding of the entire college application/financial aid process the second time around. 

 

In terms of dollars, once the dust clears, it is undeniable that we will have spent much more on our daughter's college degree. However, I invested a lot more time and effort into helping our son investigate and thoughtfully select among his educational options. So, he had the benefit of more attention and expertise. I wholeheartedly believe that "fair" doesn't have to mean "equal." For my kids, each one got/is getting the opportunities and support that are, as much as possible, what we can manage to provide. I would expect any reasonably mature human being to understand and appreciate that.

Edited by Jenny in Florida
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 She will also get funds for her wedding. We try to give our kids what we can.  

 

 

Maybe ask her about this if you haven't already, she might prefer the money to go to college. My kids know that we paying for a good education and a good start in life instead of a wedding. We will give them a gift if we are able, but funds go to college first. And our retirement, lol. 

 

As far as the original question, my experience is that top 25% at a school will get some scholarships, but it's more like top 10%-15% for the big money competitive scholarships. You'll see variance, of course, but that was a pattern. 

 

Personally, I would put more energy into improving test scores rather than music performance. Music scholarships are basically guaranteed jobs - you commit to a certain number of groups and performances. Any paying job is essentially a second job on top of school. Academic scholarships give you the money, they don't require any extra time, so any job you get is additional money. 

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