One girl didn't get a cookie ...

[Chika]

So, we were just at our kids' group music lessons and the teachers basically canceled the lesson and handed out cookies to frost and decorate. Some of the kids were in costume. There was one girl in the group who wasn't allowed to decorate a cookie (by her mom) because they "don't celebrate halloween." I *do* get that some people choose not to participate in this holiday (believe me, I do -- we turned off the lights and closed the curtains for a few years there). But ... decorating a cookie? Why is that seen as "celebrating halloween?" Couldn't it have just been .... decorating a cookie?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Giving the mom the benefit of the doubt here: Sometimes there is so much pressure to cave or at least to blur the edges of our convictions that I could see the desire to draw a hard line in the sand, so to speak. I doubt I would have made the same choice as she did (I love cookies of any shape!). But if it was my MIL I might - because she tries to sabotage our convictions in little ways all the time. So I just might have a big fight over just a cookie.

[Chika]

Yeah, I know. And I have to realize that we've been all over the spectrum in what we've done as a family, from the pretending we're not home thing to the Harvest Party at church thing to handing out treats but not trick-or-treating thing to -- this year! -- trick or treating for real, (but no scary costumes! lol). I guess my disappointment for the girl is actually judgment of the mom, so I best not go *there* eh?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Well, you can have a tiny bit of judgment of the mom! - but really, the girl won't die for missing one cookie. And unless the mom is harsh and legalistic on everything then the girl won't be needing psychological help either! (This said by a mom who has looked back and seen that I could have lightened up more in the past).

[Harriet Vane]

:rant:As a side note, I get pretty steamed when I pay for a lesson only to have it turn into a cookie-frosting session. This is not what I pay for, and it's gotten to the point where everyone feels a need to do something celebratory for every holiday. Especially at Christmas, EVERY activity in which my kids participate will feel a need to give them candy or a cheap plastic trinket or junk food party, not to mention the extra performances or recitals or special holiday projects. I think it actually detracts from the specialness of the holiday through overkill. By the time the holiday arrives we're sick of it.

[EKS]

:rant:As a side note, I get pretty steamed when I pay for a lesson only to have it turn into a cookie-frosting session. This is not what I pay for, and it's gotten to the point where everyone feels a need to do something celebratory for every holiday. Especially at Christmas, EVERY activity in which my kids participate will feel a need to give them candy or a cheap plastic trinket or junk food party, not to mention the extra performances or recitals or special holiday projects. I think it actually detracts from the specialness of the holiday through overkill. By the time the holiday arrives we're sick of it.

 

:iagree:

[Lovedtodeath]

This was probably the fault of the teacher! The mom told the teacher, "we don't celebrate Halloween." The teacher decides that the cookie is part of a Halloween celebration.

 

We do not celebrate holidays. When DD was in K (for about 22 weeks) they sent her to the office over every little thing... even making a Pilgrim costume. I told the teacher to try and check with me instead of excluding her so often and that it was fine for her to make the costume.

[Tap]

Oh man this is one of my soap box subjects so you may want to stop reading now!

 

 

I agree with Strider.

 

And I will take it one step further and say that it wasn't the parents fault the girl didn't get to decorate a cookie, but the teachers! Decorating cookies has Nothing to do with music classes. If she wanted to do that, she could have had them do something with music noted or staffs or anything other than Halloween.

 

In my opinion the teacher was quite rude to assume that everyone celebrated Halloween and that the parents wouldn't mind having a fun day instead of the class.

 

I now feel that I have to ask all of my kids teachers on the day before any holiday, what they will be doing in class for the day. Most often, studies are halted for something fun. I don't have a problem with the festivities, but sometimes we hurry around to get to a class, making an already busy day crazy, to find out that they aren't really having class that day. I like to be able to let the kids choose how to spend the day instead. Sometimes they still want to go and sometimes they would rather have extra time at home. I understand that kids are distracted and you need to plan lite for the day...I just don't agree with doing something totally unrelated.

 

In ds's Highschool Biology class today they made bones out of pretzels, starburst, frosting and sprinkles. Then she sent home the class work for homework. ...huh?! (PS>Bones aren't anything related to current studies.)

 

 

Just in case anyone wonders...yes, we celebrate Halloween and always have.

[mommaduck]

The mom probably felt sabotaged by this unexpected turn of events. There might even be prior history where the teacher KNEW how this family felt, so the mom had to finally draw a hard line. I can't tell you how many times people have tried to undermine my parenting by making my daughter change clothes when at a sleepover (guess what, no more sleepovers...ever!) into things they KNEW we disapproved of, my mother yanking off my headcovering everytime she went to "hug" me, putting in a movie that was supposed to be "sooo" good and ended up with us walking out of the room, landing Christmass presents on our doorstep for our "poor, deprived kids" (we bought them things throughout the year and we don't do Christmass!!!).

[Lovedtodeath]

If the cookies were shaped like ghosts, my DD would not be allowed. Bats or pumpkins... maybe. It depends on her attitude. If she thinks she is participating in Halloween by decorating her cookies, then no way! It would be cruel to confuse the poor kid like that. I can get her a gingerbread kit that we can do at home.

[Nestof3]

I personally would have let my son decorate the cookie, but that is irrelevant (and we don't "do" Halloween). I will share, though, that with people we're close to, if we give an inch, they try to take a mile.

 

For instance, one year, my mom bought the boys all of these Halloween crafts to make. Next year, she invited them over to decorate her Halloween window. Next year, she had them fix the candy bags that she gives out. Next year, she asked if the boys could hand out the candy with her (which I said no to this time). I tried so hard to just grin and bear it, trying not to hurt my mom's feelings yet stick with a decision my husband and I made. It just got to be too much, and I had to tell her "No Halloween stuff." She still brings us candy on my son's b-day (which was last night), and I love candy. Honestly, no big deal. She used little leaf-adorned containers. She tries. I just hate being in an awkward situation. There was a time she treated me like I was totally depriving her b/c I didn't bring my boys to her doorstep all dressed out.

 

I wish that the boys could just enjoy the fall without constantly being reminded that we don't "do Halloween." To me, it's like -- big deal -- we do all sorts of other great things. And, to them, it's no big deal. They didn't bat an eye tonight. Actually, these disgusting manequin things at Michaels this year totally turned my youngest off to Halloween, which was amazing, because he's always been very drawn to it. This year, he announced he didn't like Halloween. My middle son was always very "we don't do Halloween" and couldn't care less.

 

Sometimes I feel like other religious people in this country -- of religions not quite so "popular" for lack of a better word -- can so much more easily get away with doing something outside of the norm because it's just accepted that they're going to do those sorts of "different" things. Like, when I hear people speak of people who don't celebrate birthdays for religious reasons, people are like "hmm -- that's odd" -- but they never seem offended or annoyed.

 

But as Christians -- well, there's always the "I know lots of Christians who ________________" that we have gotten over the last several years, and it gets a little old. It's almost like since other Christians do ______________, we have no good reason to do anything to the contrary.

 

I'm just saying, it all gets a little annoying sometimes trying to figure out how best to honor and love the One you have proclaimed as your Lord. I think we should be free to best determine that for ourselves.

 

And besides, if I am paying for music class, I expect music -- not cupcake decorating. :)

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Children need to be children. They have plenty of time to decide FOR THEMSELVES what religion they want to practice and how they want to practice it. They don't see things the same way adults do, and they shouldn't- because they are CHILDREN. Decorating a cookie should be no more than that- a fun activity. Unless the parent has issues and is making a big deal out of it, Halloween should be nothing more than a fun day for children to be children and enjoy fun activities- like decorating cookies. Setting children up for exclusion is a form of emotional abuse IMO.

 

Some people do things differently than I do. They aren't trying to "sabotage my convictions" or do anything negative whatsoever. They are enriching my child's life by allowing her to see different ways of doing things. Some of these are good, some not so good- but that's just my opinion. I think it's great my dd has so many different paths to choose- FOR HERSELF- and that she will have a wealth of experiences to draw from in adult life.

[Lovedtodeath]

I am sure you would draw the line of your child participating in a religious ritual if it were particularly disturbing to you or the general population.

 

My daughter knows that we do not celebrate holidays. She looks to us for consistency. If she were to participate she would feel guilty, but get away with it. Repeat that for a while and you end up with a child who feels no guilt, who has no lines of right and wrong.

[Haiku]

Setting children up for exclusion is a form of emotional abuse IMO.

 

Normally I'm right there with ya, Jedi, but I think you crossed the line here. Abuse is a very strong word and I think you're tossing it out way too lightly. Calling religious or family values abuse because a kid doesn't get to have a cookie (or something equally inconsequential) trivializes actual abuse.

 

I also think it's reasonable to assume that many kids don't mind being different because their beliefs are important to them. My kids are young but they will tell people in detail exactly why they eat and believe as they do, and they take pride in it. Just because we "exlude" ourselves from certain things doesn't mean that we are missing out.

 

Anyway, what annoys me is the fact that the people who run children's activities feel the need to feed kids. We are vegan AND we have some food allergies to watch out for, so my kids don't eat at functions outside the house (unless a friend or family who knows us and plans appropriately is the host) unless we take our own food. IMO, handing out food at kids' events is a big no-no. There are lots of food allergies and dietary choices out there, and it's ridiculous to assume that every kid is going to be able to eat a certain snack.

 

I took my kids to a local story time a few times and I had to stop going because they kept handing out food. At a library!! Everything they handed out had milk in it ... aside from the fact that we are vegan, one of my kids is allergic to milk! Grrr!

 

I agree that if I am paying for the class, I want the time spent on the class. At the very least, families should be warned ahead of time so that they can have the option of paying a reduced fee and opting out of the holiday activity.

 

Tara

[Chika]

This was probably the fault of the teacher! The mom told the teacher, "we don't celebrate Halloween." The teacher decides that the cookie is part of a Halloween celebration.

 

Nope, not in this case. While I can see that that could happen, I saw the mom coaching the girl in the back when she realized what was going on, so when the girl sat down and the teacher offered the cookie the girl said "I don't celebrate Halloween." And it was just a round sugar cookie, and the frostings were vanilla and chocolate -- no real Halloween focused things at all. That's why I kind of didn't get it. But I understand sometimes making it easiest by just drawing a hard line and not crossing it.

 

Now when the announced that 15 minutes into class they were all going to join with the other classes and watch Fantasia 2008 for the rest of the time, that's when I just kinda went "Hunh?" and *we* bowed out. I've got better things to do than to sit and watch a group video with a bunch of kids, lol.

[Nestof3]

Fantasia 2008

 

And, you know, I hate to sound picky, but not everyone really wants their child watching topless female fairies flying around either.

[Lovedtodeath]

Nope, not in this case. While I can see that that could happen, I saw the mom coaching the girl in the back when she realized what was going on, so when the girl sat down and the teacher offered the cookie the girl said "I don't celebrate Halloween." And it was just a round sugar cookie, and the frostings were vanilla and chocolate -- no real Halloween focused things at all. That's why I kind of didn't get it. But I understand sometimes making it easiest by just drawing a hard line and not crossing it.

:001_huh: That is hard to understand by the way you describe it.

 

And, you know, I hate to sound picky, but not everyone really wants their child watching topless female fairies flying around either.

:lol: :lol:

[kalanamak]

 

Now when the announced that 15 minutes into class they were all going to join with the other classes and watch Fantasia 2008 for the rest of the time, .

 

What is Fantasia 2008? To me it is a Montreal Film Festival.

[Nestof3]

What is Fantasia 2008? To me it is a Montreal Film Festival.

 

Oops. I was thinking it was just a newly packaged Fantasia movie. I just remember years ago, when my oldest son was young, we rented it, and I couldn't believe there were fairies with bOOks flying around. :)

[Chika]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's a Disney flick related to the original Fantasia (the teacher said it had "classical music" in it and I seem to recall that about the original). I actually think THIS is something I will be more likely to mention to the program organizers that I'd prefer not be happening without prior notification (and that I'd prefer, um, music LESSONS instead actually).

[Danestress]

I adore Halloween and would totally let my kids participate (though I would be annoyed to pay for music lessons and then not actually have the lesson). But honestly

 

Why is that seen as "celebrating halloween?" Couldn't it have just been .... decorating a cookie?

 

 

Why should we even attempt to answer that? She's the Mom. It's her choice. She doesn't need a "good enough" reason to suit your or to suit me. Why can't music class just be about music?

[helena]

we are Muslim and vegan, oh man.... people don't know what to do with us:001_smile: there are awkward moments for sure, but my kids are looking to me, watching and listening. What ever choices they make for themselves, I hopefully will have taught them, that you believe things because you BELIEVE them. You've used your brain and your heart, and you make sacrifices. Hopefully they will develop character, and conviction. I try to be gracious, and firm. That can't be so bad. We still give out candy to the other kids, we'll go to grandparents for Christmas, but our children know there are boundaries. I would have let her decorate the cookie, but my kids would have declined to eat it, they would have said it's not vegan, and not thought twice about it not being a holiday we celebrate.

[Chika]

Why should we even attempt to answer that? She's the Mom. It's her choice. She doesn't need a "good enough" reason to suit your or to suit me.

 

Yeah, I kinda commented on that in the follow up posts (see the convo with Jean in Newcastle). I do get that for the reasons described above.

 

Now I'm starting to get more peeved about having paid for .... decorating cookies and Fantasia 2008, lol.

[Nestof3]

Chicka,

 

I just have to say that everytime I see your avatar, I have to wonder if you look anything like it. :D It's so cute yet classy.

[Chika]

It's the fun, funky me I wanted to be about 10-15 years ago and am trying to become now, lol. They don't have a "laugh lines" option in avatar-making!

 

:lol:

[Danestress]

Now I'm starting to get more peeved about having paid for .... decorating cookies and Fantasia 2008, lol.

 

Well, nothing like hanging out with friends who convince you to get madder about new things:)

[Chika]

Yeah, that's one way to look at the day, lol! It's funny, the two gals leading today's class -- one of them was handing out cookies, then the frosting, then (of course) the sprinkles. The kids are totally engrossed in this and all the while the *other* one was at the board trying to get kids to name the notes she'd written on the board and the songs that she was playing (probably so she could say they DID actually get some music instruction today). I'm sitting in the back thinking, "Nice try, sistah -- work with kids much?" (They're former students themselves). Ah, well. It's really no big deal and next week we'll go back to plinking out Hot Cross Buns.

[Deeke]

Children need to be children. They have plenty of time to decide FOR THEMSELVES what religion they want to practice and how they want to practice it. They don't see things the same way adults do, and they shouldn't- because they are CHILDREN. Decorating a cookie should be no more than that- a fun activity. Unless the parent has issues and is making a big deal out of it, Halloween should be nothing more than a fun day for children to be children and enjoy fun activities- like decorating cookies. Setting children up for exclusion is a form of emotional abuse IMO.

 

Some people do things differently than I do. They aren't trying to "sabotage my convictions" or do anything negative whatsoever. They are enriching my child's life by allowing her to see different ways of doing things. Some of these are good, some not so good- but that's just my opinion. I think it's great my dd has so many different paths to choose- FOR HERSELF- and that she will have a wealth of experiences to draw from in adult life.

 

:iagree:

 

Great post!

[Carrie12345]

Children need to be children. They have plenty of time to decide FOR THEMSELVES what religion they want to practice and how they want to practice it. They don't see things the same way adults do, and they shouldn't- because they are CHILDREN. Decorating a cookie should be no more than that- a fun activity. Unless the parent has issues and is making a big deal out of it, Halloween should be nothing more than a fun day for children to be children and enjoy fun activities- like decorating cookies. Setting children up for exclusion is a form of emotional abuse IMO.

 

Some people do things differently than I do. They aren't trying to "sabotage my convictions" or do anything negative whatsoever. They are enriching my child's life by allowing her to see different ways of doing things. Some of these are good, some not so good- but that's just my opinion. I think it's great my dd has so many different paths to choose- FOR HERSELF- and that she will have a wealth of experiences to draw from in adult life.

 

I have to disagree.

It isn't for *other adults to decide what is simply a fun, enriching activity and what is a big deal.

 

For example, most cartoons are considered harmless in our house. Shows from Blues Clues to The Avatar to select episodes of The Family Guy. I know that many parents have strong objections to The Family Guy, despite my own opinion, so I would never turn it on with OPK in my house.

 

Who am I to then assume that playing Blues Clues would never upset another parent? *I* don't see what the big deal is. In fact, I think my kids have learned a lot from Steve and Joe over the years. I personally think a parent who would be upset about that would be overreacting.

 

Doesn't matter. Not my call.

 

And I'm not going to touch the exclusion concept. Even as a permissive parent, I hear enough of that thrown at me for homeschooling my kids!

[kalanamak]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's a Disney flick related to the original Fantasia (the teacher said it had "classical music" in it and I seem to recall that about the original). I actually think THIS is something I will be more likely to mention to the program organizers that I'd prefer not be happening without prior notification (and that I'd prefer, um, music LESSONS instead actually).

 

I googled

fantasia 2008

and didn't get a disney mention at all. Is there a better name?

 

(she might have meant fantasia 2000, which wasn't as good as the first one, but for both of them, kiddo busily pipes up with whether something is a waltz, etc. and (this was when he was 5) danced along with them, too.)

[Jennifer in NH]

Anyway, what annoys me is the fact that the people who run children's activities feel the need to feed kids. We are vegan AND we have some food allergies to watch out for, so my kids don't eat at functions outside the house (unless a friend or family who knows us and plans appropriately is the host) unless we take our own food. IMO, handing out food at kids' events is a big no-no. There are lots of food allergies and dietary choices out there, and it's ridiculous to assume that every kid is going to be able to eat a certain snack.

 

I took my kids to a local story time a few times and I had to stop going because they kept handing out food. At a library!! Everything they handed out had milk in it ... aside from the fact that we are vegan, one of my kids is allergic to milk! Grrr!

 

I agree that if I am paying for the class, I want the time spent on the class. At the very least, families should be warned ahead of time so that they can have the option of paying a reduced fee and opting out of the holiday activity.

 

Tara

:iagree: I would be upset about the cookie itself. We no longer go to story time at our library or any of their events because I know there will be donuts. If you were in a room with my son, about 10 minutes after he ate a donut or a cookie, you would understand just why we don't do that. If we want to decorate cookies we can do that at home. If I am paying for a class, I assume there will be a class.

I too, hate when children's events serve food without letting the parents know first.

Jenny

[KarenNC]

Children need to be children. They have plenty of time to decide FOR THEMSELVES what religion they want to practice and how they want to practice it. They don't see things the same way adults do, and they shouldn't- because they are CHILDREN. Decorating a cookie should be no more than that- a fun activity. Unless the parent has issues and is making a big deal out of it, Halloween should be nothing more than a fun day for children to be children and enjoy fun activities- like decorating cookies. Setting children up for exclusion is a form of emotional abuse IMO.

 

Some people do things differently than I do. They aren't trying to "sabotage my convictions" or do anything negative whatsoever. They are enriching my child's life by allowing her to see different ways of doing things. Some of these are good, some not so good- but that's just my opinion. I think it's great my dd has so many different paths to choose- FOR HERSELF- and that she will have a wealth of experiences to draw from in adult life.

 

I agree that this is over the top. There are, remember, a great many people who would say we are *all* "setting our children up for exclusion" by choosing to homeschool and "emotionally abusing" them because they don't get to participate in all the public school activities.;)

 

The cookie was probably only the tip of the iceberg for this particular family in terms of having to deal with things related to Halloween--you have no idea of the larger issues they may have been facing. As a member of a very minority religion, sometimes it's a really hard line to walk with what's okay and what's not okay/confusing in participating in things related to the wider society, especially when the kids are very young. It's more about giving my child a consistent message about our family identity *from me* so that she can gain an understanding of what that identity is than about worrying about someone setting out to sabotage her deliberately. Yes, I know that there are folks (especially family members who may not agree with one's choices) who would do that, but most folks don't. The fact that I was not brought up in this faith makes it all the harder as I don't have a pattern to draw upon in leading her through this, so, yes, I was a bit more hardcore when she was younger.

 

For me, something like the cookie wouldn't have been a big issue religiously (in terms of paying for the lesson, now, that's something else:)), but there are other things that folks would and do see as innocuous that would be problematic depending on my child's age.

 

There's also the matter of the venue. There's a difference between going into a group *seeking out* those diverse experiences (which we have done and continue to do) and having them sprung upon you in a setting that is unrelated. For us, it was the secular-by-its-own-bylaws group that decided we needed to go Christmas caroling singing explicitly confessional Christian hymns when my daughter was 5. I don't object to caroling in and of itself, or even caroling with more generic, about the holiday songs, but this was not the venue in which I expected to have to deal with the religion issue at this age as the leader understood (I thought) that we had chosen this group explicitly *because* it was secular. I was rather blindsided and may not have reacted as gracefully off the cuff as I might have if given a chance to prepare.

 

It's also not all or nothing at all times. It's about giving her a foundation from which to understand and interpret those diverse experiences as she grows. I fully believe that exposing my child to lots of different ways of doing things is indeed enriching---when done in a manner appropriate for her age and understanding. That she might not get the equivalent of decorating that particular cookie when she was 5 doesn't mean that she will not have had lots of enriching, diverse cookie decorating experiences by the time she's 18. Frankly, at 5, she was no more ready to decide for herself about religious activities than she was to decide for herself whether she could drive a car or to go downtown on her own. Being able to make those decisions on her own is the *result* of many years of guided experience, not something a child can do from the beginning.

[KarenNC]

I googled

fantasia 2008

and didn't get a disney mention at all. Is there a better name?

 

(she might have meant fantasia 2000, which wasn't as good as the first one, but for both of them, kiddo busily pipes up with whether something is a waltz, etc. and (this was when he was 5) danced along with them, too.)

 

It's Fantasia 2000, I believe. I don't know of any other than the original and 2000 that Disney has done. The small fairies may have been topless, I don't recall, if so, not in any kind of explicitly drawn way that I noticed, but we each have our lines. I'm the one who has no problem with nude classical statuary but raised cain about the adult male leads in the local youth ballet's performance of the Nutcracker not wearing what I considered sufficient dance belts in the performance for the elementary schools a couple of years ago. The folks at the company assured me that there was absolutely nothing out of the ordinary, etc with the way their guys dressed. Sorry, seen enough performances of that particular ballet and others to see the difference. If I don't need to know if Barishnykov is circumcised, my 5 year old certainly didn't need to know it about those guys either;)---didn't help that she noticed *and* commented loudly about their "equipment" during the performance.

Edited November 1, 2008 by KarenNC

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

You know, instead of making a deal about "we don't celebrate Halloween" when she realized it was a Halloween thing and there was not going to be any class, she could have quietly bowed out (as Chicka did before the video). Problem solved. Kid doesn't have to violate any religious convictions and mom & daughter could have gone out for tea or something. Instead of having an uncomfortable situation for all involved, it could have been a nice memory for mom & daughter. Then mom could have privately spoken with whomever was in charge (by telephone, perhaps at a later date) and requested a refund for that class.

I suspect, though, that the mom was more interested in "proving a point"

[KarenNC]

You know, instead of making a deal about "we don't celebrate Halloween" when she realized it was a Halloween thing and there was not going to be any class, she could have quietly bowed out (as Chicka did before the video). Problem solved. Kid doesn't have to violate any religious convictions and mom & daughter could have gone out for tea or something. Instead of having an uncomfortable situation for all involved, it could have been a nice memory for mom & daughter. Then mom could have privately spoken with whomever was in charge (by telephone, perhaps at a later date) and requested a refund for that class.

I suspect, though, that the mom was more interested in "proving a point"

 

I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt unless "proving a point" of such things was a consistent habit. Yes, such a reaction would have been ideal, but unfortunately, one doesn't always think of these things on the spur of the moment but rather in hindsight. Hopefully, she will be prepared for such in the future.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt unless "proving a point" of such things was a consistent habit. Yes, such a reaction would have been ideal, but unfortunately, one doesn't always think of these things on the spur of the moment but rather in hindsight. Hopefully, she will be prepared for such in the future.

Good point, Karen.

[Tess in the Burbs]

we don't celebrate Halloween either....my husband did not participate in his work luncheon/costume event. So he did not add cash to the catered luncheon and brought his own. For him it's principle.

 

but we attend a birthday party yearly where they carve pumpkins. we do it. Halloween night we put them out back and light them up for our kids to see only. and that took some convincing for my husband to agree to. but we don't want to miss the party either!

 

were the cookies halloween themed? that I get. when we made the decision not to do Halloween there were so many 'what if/what about this kind of thing' to decide on.

 

this person has clearly chosen to do nothing related to Halloween and I get her point. it's everywhere and annoying as all get out and I am so glad it's gone. if they choose not to participate she has to answer to her child at home and I assure you the child will ask....every year, many times a day when kids around her do it.

 

I assume she doesn't do Santa either like me....and already people are asking about that!

[mommaduck]

I also would give her the benefit of the doubt...how many of us haven't responded in the most gracious manner when being sideswiped on an issue before? *raises hand*

[Blessedfamily]

I was going to say what Karen has already said but I'll add this. It's the surprise element that would have caused me to do the same. The parent didn't know the Halloween thing was coming so she had to react in the moment. I think a simple "we don't celebrate Hallooween" is to the point.

 

Now if the mother already knew(say it was posted on the class calendar) that a Halloween celebration was going to be used and she showed up just to make a ruckus, that would be different. In that case I would call the school director and ask when my child could do a make-up class with actual art or whatever.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Nope, not in this case. While I can see that that could happen, I saw the mom coaching the girl in the back when she realized what was going on, so when the girl sat down and the teacher offered the cookie the girl said "I don't celebrate Halloween." And it was just a round sugar cookie, and the frostings were vanilla and chocolate -- no real Halloween focused things at all. That's why I kind of didn't get it. But I understand sometimes making it easiest by just drawing a hard line and not crossing it.

 

Now when the announced that 15 minutes into class they were all going to join with the other classes and watch Fantasia 2008 for the rest of the time, that's when I just kinda went "Hunh?" and *we* bowed out. I've got better things to do than to sit and watch a group video with a bunch of kids, lol.

When I suggested the mom "bow out" I didn't mean to sound harsh. From Chicka's remarks (above) it seems as if, since she had time to "coach the girl in the back when she realized what was going on" she may have had time to formulate an alternative...Just as Chicka left instead of watching a video.

Yes, we have all acted in a way that could be wrongly perceived by others, yes, all of us have acted in "not the best" way in the "heat" of the moment (myself included, perhaps more than most). However, many in this thread have been posting "what should have been done" type posts, and I was simply offering an alternative I had not see given yet. Not being snarky or harsh toward this mother who probably isn't even reading this post, just an other option amongst all the rest.

As far as the motivation behind the actions, I offered one possible explanation. It is up to each one of us to examine our own motivations and actions and see if they are properly aligned with our (stated) beliefs.

[mommaduck]

Just wanted to add on the "setting up for exclusion" and "equals abuse" comment: If anyone set a child up for exclusion, it was the teacher by not thinking or respecting how others might feel the whole thing. I've also known other families that felt the same way by how Columbus Day, Thanksgiving, or Christmass are presented in the public school system.

Edited November 1, 2008 by mommaduck

[JFSinIL]

:iagree:

 

I second your agreement!:iagree:

[Jenny in Florida]

Normally I'm right there with ya, Jedi, but I think you crossed the line here. Abuse is a very strong word and I think you're tossing it out way too lightly. Calling religious or family values abuse because a kid doesn't get to have a cookie (or something equally inconsequential) trivializes actual abuse.

 

I also think it's reasonable to assume that many kids don't mind being different because their beliefs are important to them. My kids are young but they will tell people in detail exactly why they eat and believe as they do, and they take pride in it. Just because we "exlude" ourselves from certain things doesn't mean that we are missing out.

 

Anyway, what annoys me is the fact that the people who run children's activities feel the need to feed kids. We are vegan AND we have some food allergies to watch out for, so my kids don't eat at functions outside the house (unless a friend or family who knows us and plans appropriately is the host) unless we take our own food. IMO, handing out food at kids' events is a big no-no. There are lots of food allergies and dietary choices out there, and it's ridiculous to assume that every kid is going to be able to eat a certain snack.

 

I took my kids to a local story time a few times and I had to stop going because they kept handing out food. At a library!! Everything they handed out had milk in it ... aside from the fact that we are vegan, one of my kids is allergic to milk! Grrr!

 

I agree that if I am paying for the class, I want the time spent on the class. At the very least, families should be warned ahead of time so that they can have the option of paying a reduced fee and opting out of the holiday activity.

 

Tara

 

Wow, I agree with everything you said her, Tara. And I was drawing some of the same parallels (religious convictions - veganism).

 

One of the considerations we took into account when deciding to homeschool was our daughter's experience with "the food thing" in preschool. I had discussed our concerns with the administrator and the teachers before my daughter started classes and was assured that it would be okay. But it wasn't.

 

At the beginning of the year, we were given a calendar that had all the kids' birthdays on it. Knowing that parents were encouraged to bring treats in honor of their kids' birthdays, I kept an eye on the calendar and sent my daughter a "special snack" on any day I anticipated there would be treats. But sometimes I missed, either because I forgot to check the calendar or because a family sent treats on a different day or because a new child had joined the class and wasn't on the calendar. On those days, my daughter would be left eating her crackers while everyone else had cupcakes or cookies, and I hated that idea.

 

So, we finally agreed that I would provide the school with a box of pre-packaged treats that my daughter liked (not as much as fresh, homemade things, but better than plain crackers) that would be kept in the snack cupboard and could be handed to her in an "emergency" treat situation.

 

And I breathed a sigh of relief. But it wasn't over.

 

Then came the pudding painting. ("Oh, I know she can't eat it, but you don't mind if she sticks her hands in it, right?") And the various "experiments" with gelatin. ("Really? That's not vegetarian?") And the Thanksgiving "feast" that consisted primarily of candy corn and buttered popcorn.

 

I tried so hard to do my part, not to be a problem, to ask for as few accomodations as possible and to take the lion's share of the effort and expense on myself. For example, parents were expected to contribute to a communal snack supply at the beginning of each quarter. Needless to say, most of the snacks contributed by other famlies were things our family didn't eat. Nonetheless, I made my own contribution to the stash AND provided alternatives for my daughter. As previously mentioned, I provided her with special goodies for any special occasion AND brought cupcakes for the class on her birthdays.

 

But it still seemed like every week there was another problem. And it all just drove me crazy. It even got to the point at which the lead teacher was lecturing me about how "a little now and then won't hurt her," because it wasn't "unhealthy." I explained over and over that it wasn't about health, but about an ethical stance, but I really think it went over her head.

 

Oh, and don't even get me started on our experiences with Camp Fire. They were very nice people and ran a great program, but the food . . .

 

Fortunately, it doesn't seem to have done my kids any harm. They are, in fact, strong and secure individuals with very strong convinctions of their own. We always made sure we explained to them why we were taking the stances we took and why we would not be participating in this or that event. They get it, and they understand why it is important.

 

And I agree with the frustration about so many kids' events revolving around food. Our family eats a no-refined-sugar, vegan diet, and my son's best friend has multiple, severe food allergies. For a while, we were friendly with another family in which one of the children had both diabetes and celiac. In my opinion, insisting on doing activities that include food pretty much ensures that someone is going to get left out.

 

And it doesn't take big leap from our own experiences to understand how anyone with non-mainstream beliefs has challenges navigating out in the "regular world."

[Blessedfamily]

When I suggested the mom "bow out" I didn't mean to sound harsh. From Chicka's remarks (above) it seems as if, since she had time to "coach the girl in the back when she realized what was going on" she may have had time to formulate an alternative...Just as Chicka left instead of watching a video.

Yes, we have all acted in a way that could be wrongly perceived by others, yes, all of us have acted in "not the best" way in the "heat" of the moment (myself included, perhaps more than most). However, many in this thread have been posting "what should have been done" type posts, and I was simply offering an alternative I had not see given yet. Not being snarky or harsh toward this mother who probably isn't even reading this post, just an other option amongst all the rest.

As far as the motivation behind the actions, I offered one possible explanation. It is up to each one of us to examine our own motivations and actions and see if they are properly aligned with our (stated) beliefs.

 

I know you didn't mean to be harsh. By the time I typed my response, you had already responded to Karen plus several other people had made the point. All between the time I pressed post response and when I finished typing mine. Multiple responses at once can make it seem like everyone's reacting strongly. You have to make allowances for us slow typers!:)

 

Eta: Now see. While I ws typing that little bit, Jenny in Florida typed that whole long post. I'm just too slow.

Edited November 1, 2008 by Blessedfamily

[Erica in PA]

Well, I'll agree with you, Chika, I think it's just plain silly. I understand the reasons that some people have for not celebrating Halloween, but to not allow decorating a cookie?? And I will bet that the cookie was not demonically designed or anything even close to that... was it maybe a jack o'lantern or orange and black sprinkles?

 

Imo, that is legalistic and silly. Does the mother have a right to do what she wants with her own dd? Sure. Do other people think that I am legalistic and silly sometimes with my own children? Probably so. But I can still admit that I think in this particular situation her decision was making a mountain out of a molehill, and unnecessarily strict.

 

Erica

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Abuse is a very strong word and I think you're tossing it out way too lightly.

 

In this case, the kid wasn't allergic to the cookie. Most places nowadays ask if the children have allergies or dietary restrictions. Also, not being able to eat the cookie would not prevent the kid from decorating the cookie and letting a friend eat it. If allergies prevented decorating the cookie, the child could have decorated a paper plate. The mother and teacher could have put their heads together to find a way for that kid to be included. But no- the mother put her OWN needs above that of the child.

 

If the kids are choosing for THEMSELVES not to eat certain things, or are choosing to believe certain things, that is one thing. However, when the parent makes the choice for the child, and the child has no other choice BUT to be excluded, that's abuse IMO. BTW- I love the kids who come over here and tell me what they can and can't eat. One little guy is vegan (his parents are not and I think is totally cool for a 9yo to make that decision totally on his own) and reads all my food labels. He's not rude about it at all, he just knows I'm oblivious to such things and I leave it up to him to pick their snack when he's here.

 

http://eqi.org/eabuse1.htm#Signs%20of%20Abusive,%20Authority%20Based%20Relationships

 

There are, remember, a great many people who would say we are *all* "setting our children up for exclusion" by choosing to homeschool and "emotionally abusing" them because they don't get to participate in all the public school activities.

I agree that our kids are missing out and that SOME homeschool parents are abusing their children. I continue to write to my state representatives for laws like FL has, where parents are held more accountable and kids are able to participate in programs at the public school. If my child did not enjoy homeschooling and begged to go to public school for valid reasons, I would not force her to continue homeschooling. I am not going to keep my child in a situation where she's not happy just because *I* might feel homeschooling is better.

 

Who am I to then assume that playing Blues Clues would never upset another parent? *I* don't see what the big deal is. In fact, I think my kids have learned a lot from Steve and Joe over the years. I personally think a parent who would be upset about that would be overreacting.

 

Parents need to use COMMON SENSE. My 7yo is allowed to watch R rated movies. I don't allow other kids to watch them at my house because I know that is outside the normal parameters of what the majority of kids are allowed to do. Blues Clues is designed for a certain age group, and if here are kids here in that age group, it does not breach the boundaries of common sense to turn that on.

 

I hate Barbie. I mean I really hate Barbie. I hate the whole image and the messages she sends to girls. I hate all the accessories and the materialism of it all. But, I have a daughter and Barbie is- well- Barbie. I don't have to go out and buy Barbies, but it is ridiculous to assume that I can forbid my daughter to play with Barbie ever. What I can do is talk to her about why I feel the way I do about Barbie and then let it go. Maybe she agrees, maybe she doesn't. Or maybe she doesn't right now, but when she's 20 she will realize mom had a point- or not. The point is I'm not going to allow my own feelings to get in the way of her enjoying a perfectly normal thing for girls her age to enjoy. She is not going to fall over dead or have any other physical or emotional harm come to her because she dresses up a Barbie.

 

At holiday time, there is a pretty good chance any classes your children take are going to do something special to celebrate mainstream holidays. I think it is ridiculous for a parent to be shocked when they show up on Christmas or Halloween and the class is doing something fun related to the holiday. I think it is a shame that parents would be upset by this. Whenever any kid I've ever met has come to class to find it's a holiday fun day, they have been EXCITED and HAPPY. Again- these things are for CHILDREN. They have their whole lives to learn music or whatever it is. They only have a short time to be children.

 

In case anyone missed the memo:

 

At Halloween time, people put out pumpkins and ghosts, children dress up in costumes and go out to collect candy.

 

At Christmas, people put up trees, ornaments, and children eagerly await Santa. There are special songs we only sing at Christmas time, and a lot of them have to do with Jesus because that is the dude that caused Christmas to be celebrated in the first place.

 

At Thanksgiving, you see turkeys and pilgrims, and a lot of fictional stories passed off as "history". People usually eat a lot of food and watch football.

 

At Valentine's Day, people give each other little cards and candy to show love. You will see hearts and cupids all over the place at this time of year.

 

At Easter, people decorate eggs and hide them. The Easter Bunny comes and leaves a basket of goodies for kids. You will also see lots of crosses around because Easter is a Christian holiday involving the story of the crucifixion.

 

On St. Patrick's Day, people wear green. There are shamrock decorations all over the place and folks drink beer.

 

On Mother's day and Father's day, kids celebrate that particular parent on that day.

 

So- these are the mainstream holidays that we celebrate here in America. Now you are prepared in case you show up at class and there is something going on to celebrate. Even if you don't celebrate the holiday, though, there are many ways you can keep your child from being excluded. One of my dd's friends has two dads, so Father's day has become "Roger Day" and she celebrates one parent on each day. That's just one example. I guarantee that whatever your religion or life situation, if you and your child's teacher put your heads together, there are many ways your child can keep from being excluded.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

I hate Barbie. I mean I really hate Barbie. I hate the whole image and the messages she sends to girls. I hate all the accessories and the materialism of it all. But, I have a daughter and Barbie is- well- Barbie. I don't have to go out and buy Barbies, but it is ridiculous to assume that I can forbid my daughter to play with Barbie ever. What I can do is talk to her about why I feel the way I do about Barbie and then let it go. Maybe she agrees, maybe she doesn't. Or maybe she doesn't right now, but when she's 20 she will realize mom had a point- or not. The point is I'm not going to allow my own feelings to get in the way of her enjoying a perfectly normal thing for girls her age to enjoy. She is not going to fall over dead or have any other physical or emotional harm come to her because she dresses up a Barbie.

I hate Barbie too...My dd LOVES Barbie. Her aunties give her Barbie. So, what do I do? I let her play w/Barbie....I still hate Barbie, but now I also see that it "fosters imaninative play" for my dd

 

 

In case anyone missed the memo:

 

 

Well...this just cracked me right up...too funny and spot on. Hope you're prepared for the fallout.:lol:

[Blessedfamily]

...In case anyone missed the memo:

 

At Halloween time, people put out pumpkins and ghosts, children dress up in costumes and go out to collect candy.

 

At Christmas, people put up trees, ornaments, and children eagerly await Santa. There are special songs we only sing at Christmas time, and a lot of them have to do with Jesus because that is the dude that caused Christmas to be celebrated in the first place.

 

At Thanksgiving, you see turkeys and pilgrims, and a lot of fictional stories passed off as "history". People usually eat a lot of food and watch football.

 

At Valentine's Day, people give each other little cards and candy to show love. You will see hearts and cupids all over the place at this time of year.

 

At Easter, people decorate eggs and hide them. The Easter Bunny comes and leaves a basket of goodies for kids. You will also see lots of crosses around because Easter is a Christian holiday involving the story of the crucifixion.

 

On St. Patrick's Day, people wear green. There are shamrock decorations all over the place and folks drink beer.

 

On Mother's day and Father's day, kids celebrate that particular parent on that day.

 

So- these are the mainstream holidays that we celebrate here in America. Now you are prepared in case you show up at class and there is something going on to celebrate. Even if you don't celebrate the holiday, though, there are many ways you can keep your child from being excluded. One of my dd's friends has two dads, so Father's day has become "Roger Day" and she celebrates one parent on each day. That's just one example. I guarantee that whatever your religion or life situation, if you and your child's teacher put your heads together, there are many ways your child can keep from being excluded.

 

Any case any teacher missed the memo:

 

If you're going to have an activity to celebrate a holiday, there may be kids in the class whose families don't celebrate. Have an alternative already prepared so they won't feel excluded, since you're the one initiating the activity. (Especially if it's outside of the scope of the class) Same thing for food related activities/vegetarians. Teacher, be prepared.

Edited November 1, 2008 by Blessedfamily

[Haiku]

Most places nowadays ask if the children have allergies or dietary restrictions.

 

This has not been my experience at all. At children's functions, people walk up to my kids and hand them food without asking or notifying me or asking my kids anything about their diets. Fortunately, my kids know that they have to clear any food items with me before they eat them. They will also pipe up and say, "I don't eat animals" or "I am allergic to soy." That's great, and I am glad that do it, but the fact that people seem to think they can just hand out food to kids shocks me.

 

And I simply fail to agree with you on what you consider to be abuse. I think that's an issue we'll never agree on.

 

Tara

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

Any case any teacher missed the memo:

 

If you're going to have an activity to celebrate a holiday, there may be kids in the class whose families don't celebrate. Have an alternative already prepared so they won't feel excluded, since you're the one initiating the activity. (Especially if it's outside of the scope of the class) Same thing for food related activities/vegetarians. Teacher, be prepared.

 

ITA with this. In classes I've taught, I've been put on the spot many a time with parents who suddenly show up and for some reason are shocked that the kids are having something special for a mainstream holiday though. While I try to do my best and will come up with SOMETHING to keep the child included, it would be nice if parents would "read the memo" and give a bit of advance warning so that I as a teacher can be better prepared. Teachers are not mind readers.