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Dyslexia reading curricula recs for 11yo please


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Following on from my post about tutoring an 11yo struggling in writing, I am now sure the problem is dyslexia.

She needs to start right back from the very beginning with letter sounds.

 

So I would like to compile a complete list of ALL the intensive reading curricula that will be appropriate for this situation and a child of this age so that I can research which one will be the best fit for this child as well as weighing up overall cost, shipping, availability in australia or shipping available to us, ease of use, how many times a week we would need to use the program etc.

 

BTW I passed the barton tutor test and she passed the barton student test so we don't need pre-barton level suggestions.

Thanks

 

 

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Orton Gillingham Reading Program for Dyslexia - 14 Choices

 

The lady at this blog has posted here (on WTM LC) in the past. I'm not saying I agree with her list or am like yeah, go with what she says. I'm just saying it's a list and you wanted a list. There's this funky trend I notice where people in the homeschool community either endorse curricula or write curricula, and sometimes I just kinda scratch my head. We already said this before, but there are options out there that sometimes people make work for dyslexics, but you have to look at the whole of the situation. You've got some pretty significant dyslexia if the mom (where the genes came from) is still illiterate as an adult. I like your use of the term *intensive*. I think that is exactly what you're looking for.

 

So anyways, that list is what I went through when I chose Barton. A lot of those things have been mentioned on the boards, and it's handy to google site search to find past posts about them. To site search, you can use the search bar at the top of the screen or you can go to your google bar and type the terms plus "site:welltrainedmind.com"  So, for instance, if you wanted to see past threads about Wilson Reading, you could type into your google bar "wilson reading site:welltrainedmind.com" Or make it more fun and do "wilson barton site:welltrainedmind.com" 

 

So google site searching will give you a way to see how those materials have worked for people in the past. The *reason* people keep mentioning Barton is because it's fully scripted. Some programs require training. There might be some places doing complete OG training online. It would be another approach to consider. If you found an online OG course, you'd get all the training and wouldn't need multiple levels of Barton. It's something we've discussed here on the boards, so you can find threads on it. It's not necessarily *easier* because then you're left writing your own lesson plans. That can be really time intensive! There are people who've done OG training who still use Barton, because they like having the scripted lessons, the word lists already. Barton also gives you the reading materials to go with the levels. That can be an additional expense. And Barton is targeted at older kids and adults, not K5ers, so it includes reading tasks that are quite mature. They'll have things on taxes, the prom, cancer, all kinds of mature topics. Some programs are targeting younger children (to give a solid foundation to beginners, a good thing!), so the maturity of the materials is really different. You'll see Barton being used with younger kids, like mine, but it's a real stretch. It's most logical market is 3rd grade and up. It's an easy fit for adults.

 

Another tip is to search google and look for videos. When I was going through that blog list to choose for my ds,  I found videos on youtube explaining some of the programs. That was really handy, to see them in action. 

 

The *similarities* of many of the programs are greater than the seeming differences, but there will be differences. Age-appropriateness, what is included, how detailed the lessons are to get to the teeny tiny steps, no assumptions, that a person with an SLD needs. The more general the market, the less teeny tiny the steps will be. You definitely want multi-sensory, and some will be more than others. Fwiw, I really like the Barton tiles. I've used AAS1-6, and to me the little paper tiles just aren't the same. Also Barton has a really stellar, really STELLAR app. Remember, she was a computer programmer, and she put tons of money into the app. It's pricy, but it works really, really well and makes the lessons fabulous. It's just a terrific tool, so well done. It's one that, if you're using another system, you'll go wow I'd love to have the Barton app. :D

 

Honestly, she's listing stuff that is more like a supplement. LIPS is something you use foundationally. I combined it with Barton 1 and 2, because my ds wouldn't have been able to do Barton 1 and 2 without the added supports. Earobics, etc., these are supplements. So just take your time, look through the list, ask questions. That google site search will help, because then you can see what threads there have been in the past for AAR vs. Barton, that kind of thing. The AAR thing is tricky, because there are some very vocal people in the homeschool dyslexia community saying to use it. Again, look at their situation, the tools, compare, see. I got AAR pre but we ended up needing LIPS. (mainstream thorough vs. therapy level) My ds is admittedly a wicked case, with his apraxia plus plus plus.

 

Here's the audible version of Dyslexic Advantage. It will change their lives.

Amazon.com: The Dyslexic Advantage: Unlocking the Hidden Potential of the Dyslexic Brain (Audible Audio Edition): Brock l. Eide, Paul Costanzo, Fernette L. Eide, Tantor Audio: Books

ANYTHING you can do to work to her strengths, highlight her strengths, etc. will be good. DA explains some of the structural brain differences, like the spacing of the mini-columns, and when you tell this to the dc she'll realize why it's harder for her to learn BUT also why she has some surprising abilities! So it can flip the dynamic at a hard time.

 

Do you think the dc also has ADHD? It's 60% comorbid with dyslexia, so it's something to ask. She'll very possibly have low working memory, midline issues, retained reflexes, etc. You could weave in a few minutes of working memory work as a fun time. Midline exercises might get her brain in gear and help her relax and work better. She'll also need RAN/RAS work. I'm trying to remember here, but I think when I was starting with my ds I made pages from (wow the name is slipping my mind, it's a $10 ebook) that had crossbody exercises. So we'd do RAN/RAS colored dot reading pages WHILE we did the crossbody/midline work. It was just a really good physical warm-up to get his body ready to focus and work. RAN/RAS scores are strongly correlated with strong readers, so improving her RAN/RAS will be one of the MOST VALUABLE, free, simple things you can do for her. It will be the difference between crunch crunch and fluidity. And it's FREE. I don't think reading programs typically bring them in. I've shared some Dropbox files in the past, so you can google to find the link. (I'm incredibly lazy.)

 

I admire the effort and tenacity you're showing here to help this family. I'm sure whatever you pick will work out well. Good luck! :)

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Thank you OhElizabeth, so much to think about and check out. That list might be exactly what I needed to get started on making sure we are making the best choice.

No I would not say this child has adhd, her younger sister, age 8, is mildly dyslexic and has adhd though, so maybe that is something to keep in mind. She does not have the best working memory though so I will do some research into it, maybe this will prove to be another piece in the puzzle.

Thanks so much for taking the time to give such a thorough reply, I will read everything more carefully and continue researching tomorrow, it is past bedtime here now :)

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https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=og+training+site:welltrainedmind.com&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

 

Just to give you a little jumpstart, here's a google site search for past threads on getting OG training. Actually what I was trying to find for you was the username for the lady whose blog I linked. She used to post here some. She ended up doing OG training with an org and had a book she liked. That dyslexia org in Australia could probably point you to someplace to get training. If there's any coming up, it would definitely, definitely be an option to consider. There's just nothing like getting intensive training. It would be rocket fuel for you. Of course, you used AAS, so some of it is already familiar. Still, it just gives you options. 

 

Orton-Gillingham training - The Learning Challenges Board - The Well-Trained Mind Community  Ok, I found it! This is the thread, and it was started by me, hehe. So you can see where I was, where we are now, and laugh. :)  Anyways, the poster is SandyKC, and that's her blog I linked earlier. She links the book she used, which she was comfortable with after her OG training. 

 

That thread did show up in the google site search I linked. There's lots of good stuff there, and you get to see multiple people's experiences over time. Posters come and go as people drift in and out. Google site search is awesome. :)

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Ok, I'll bore you a bit more. So like say you go wow, SandyKC used Language Tool Kit & Manual, Grades K-5: Paula D. Rome, Jean S. Osman: 9780838805206 - Christianbook.com after her OG training and I want to use that too, but then what did she use for spelling? Is LTK strong on spelling? Dunno. Barton includes spelling. So you could use your AAS, or you could go back to google site search and see what Sandy used. So it would be "spelling SandyKC site:welltrainedmind.com" Also she has a spelling tab on her blog. But again you get that discrepancy between hindsight and what they really did. ;)

 

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Edited by OhElizabeth
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The two programs that were most highly recommended to me by a reading teacher specialist for my ds who was then a smart 9yo but dyslexic and not reading were HighNoon and Language!  Both were also mentioned in a book on overcoming dyslexia by Sally Shaywitz?  a Yale University dyslexia specialist...sorry on possibly wrong name, but again it has been awhile. I would recommend the book she wrote as well even though it is getting pretty old now.

 

HighNoon is what worked best for my ds, but again that was done in lots of small increments during day--possible that the child could work on her own for some sessions, so this might still work for her too.  It started right from the beginning with letter sounds. I agree with the blurb below that says "easy to use." And for my ds, I also agree that it supported the rapid development of everything it says.

 

 

 

High Noon Reading Intervention Program

Two Levels Cover Grades 1-3 Reading Skills

Easy to use, High Noon Reading Intervention supports rapid development of skills in phonics, vocabulary, spelling, fluency, and comprehension. Two levels cover grades 1-3 reading skills, with flexible entry points and frequent assessment giving teachers flexibility to design the course of intervention to suit the particular student.

More Information / Samples / Purchase

 

I

 

 

I also agree with the accuracy of this description:

 

Teachers Edition: 
For each level, this guide provides everything you will need for planning and teaching the program. Each four-page lesson plan includes reduced pages from the Student Book and Workbook. Lesson steps are listed and scripting is provided to model the teaching of new concepts. Review of the "teaching" script is the only preparation suggested for each lesson, and this can be completed in about five minutes. 

 

 

 

 

 

And after doing a few lessons, I got the system down to where I'd say it took no preparation prior to opening to where we were and jumping right in.  One of the big reasons many people recommend Barton is that it is supposed to be easy to teach, which is probably so. But I doubt that it is easier to teach than High Noon. So I'd suggest a choice at least as between those two based on other factors.

 

 

 

 

 

Language! is meant to be done in 90 minute daily sessions in school and might fit for a tutoring situation better for that reason. We did do some work with Language! also.

 

BUT my ds could not do even the lowest level of Language! until about half way through, maybe more, HighNoon's first Intervention level.  It might have technically started with letter sounds, but it fairly rapidly moved on to words like "abstract" which made it interesting, but too much, way too fast for ds. It may be true as the last google blurb says that it has 2x literacy gains of other programs--but for my own ds it was not sufficiently slow and incremental to be a suitable starting program.

 

From your first post where you wrote that the girl was reading at first grade level, I thought she might be able to manage Language!, but from this one that says she needs to go back to letter sounds, I would less think so.

 

Both High Noon and Language! are, to my understanding, approved for use in the state of California.  Neither were approved in Oregon, where we are, so at his public school extra reading they used a program called Treasures, which IMO was not as good as either High Noon or Language!  (eta I'm also not sure that Treasures is available to purchase in single book quantities).

 

Both High Noon and Language! are suitable for an 11 year old. High Noon chapter books had quite a bit of reading that involved a theme of persistence (eg in a hike, a bike race, etc.) early on, which was helpful during persisting in reading. Higher level readers had readings on cities such as Venice, or past the point that we stopped using it, famous people, etc.  The intervention book also had reading suited to an 11yo. Language! had readings on things like a visit to an art museum, bats, and other things--suited perhaps to middle through high school interest level.    

 

I am linking based on google search, not sure what is best link:

 

(eta the $153 showing in google results below is a price for set of 5 student materials. I actually got a teacher book, student book and student workbook at around $78US per level, plus the Sound Out Chapter Books.  Ds did not have comprehension issues so no extra books for extra practice on that, but I do wish I'd gotten the extra spelling books that sync with the program.)

 

High Noon Books - Build a Reading Program
www.highnoonbooks.com/hnb/build_course.tpl
‎
 
... struggling readers in elementary through middle school, High Noon Reading Intervention is a lifeline. ... See sample pages here.
Skills Workbooks - HNB: Results
www.highnoonbooks.com/listHNB.tpl?...readingPrograms... Reading%20Programs...Reading%20Programs%20...
‎
 
High Noon Reading is a reading intervention program for students in grades 3 and above that focuses on the development of decoding, fluency, and ...
 

 

 

HNB: High Noon Reading-Level 1 - High Noon Books
www.highnoonbooks.com/detailHNB.tpl?eqskudatarq=S8271-8
‎
 
$153.00 - In stock
High Noon Reading is a reading intervention program for students in grades 3 and above that focuses on the ... Sound Out Chapter Books - Set A-1. see_also1
 

 

Sound Out Phonics Based Chapter Books - High Noon Books
www.highnoonbooks.com/HNB/sound-out_products.tpl
‎
 
Skills Workbooks · Reading Intervention Â· Language Games ... Sets A-1, A-2, and A-2 each consist of six books, three of which focus on shor vowels and ... You can select the rightSound Out Chapter Book for your student by consulting the chart below. ... High Interest low level Books & Programs for Struggling Readers

 

 

 

LANGUAGE! Training & Support - Voyager Sopris Learning
www.voyagersopris.com/literacy/language/training-support
‎
 
LANGUAGE! lessons, comprised of 6 key instructional steps, designed for a 90- minute instructional block each day. Flexible implementation models are ...
LANGUAGE! Research and Results - Voyager Sopris Learning
www.voyagersopris.com/literacy/language/research-results
‎
 
LANGUAGE!Ⓡ integrates reading, writing, spelling, vocabulary, grammar, foundational skills, and spoken English. The entire curriculum weaves all of the ...
2017 LANGUAGE! Live - Voyager Sopris Learning
www.voyagersopris.com/info/language-live/
‎
 
LANGUAGE!® Live redefines literacy intervention. Struggling readers in grades 5 â€“12 excel with 2X literacy gains to close the gap faster than with any other ...
 

 

Edited by Pen
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Note on differences: High Noon did NOT depend on or include color tiles (or any letter tiles-- though we did have a set bought separately, it was not particularly useful for my ds).  My particular ds's situation made very clear black on white materials preferable as not causing visual distraction and confusion. So that worked well for him.

 

 It is extremely incremental.

 

It is not "rule based."   There was intensive practice with most frequent short sounds of vowels presented first, less common ones later.  So that instead of learning that /a/ might sound like aa (cap), ah (father) , ay (cake), uh, etc., they practiced a lot of reading with /a/ sounding like the a in cap (as in the first sound out book: The Red Cap), and later learned other sounds for it getting to fluency in each pattern.  Nonsense words really only appeared in the form of names, with, for example, Matt Sims, the author of the Sound Out books being itself a couple of decodable simple words. This was an excellent fit for my ds.  While Barton seems to be a more frequent choice, of people on this forum, I am not sure that my ds would be reading even now if we had gone with Barton because his particular dyslexia took a form where he would not have been able  to cope with the nonsense words, letter tiles and some of the other features that were apparently at its base.

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Pen, that's really fascinating! Ottakee frequently recommends the I See Sam books, and that's how they are too, very incremental. The op can find them online as pdf versions for free. I tried them with my ds, and he would read the book and have no clue about any of the words when he finished. He could literally read the same word over and over and then not recognize it on the next page.  :cursing:  So for him, that kind of repetition-drive approach couldn't work, but I can totally see where it's working for some kids! 

 

Just as a total aside, I don't think any of the dyslexia-oriented OG approaches are teaching multiple sounds upfront. SWR/WRTR, these kinds of programs do, but they're more streamlined (lite, if you will) and meant for a mainstream audience. I *did* teach all the sounds upfront to my ds while we were doing LIPS, but I'm a hack, awful person. I didn't require him to use them, but I did teach them. Didn't rattle him, but that's him. But in general, I don't think any programs meant for dyslexia want you to do that. 

 

For the op, one of the reasons they use non-sense words in dyslexia programs is to bust through their ability to guess. If you have someone who is used to guessing, the nonsense words force them to tackle the word as it's given. I can totally see where they could be an issue for some kids or fluster some kids. Just saying there's a reason why they are useful. I don't belabor them with my ds, because frankly sometimes they mystify ME as a non-dyslexic! Like seriously, I'm not dyslexic, have done plenty with linguistics and languages, and I just scratch my head on some of them. So they are skippable if it really, really bugs you. The non-sense components in Barton that are integrated into the scripted instructional portions of the lessons are usually brief and tight. I found them *helpful* for my ds because they were usually getting them to discriminate very similar sounds, something that is an issue for my ds. The non-sense words in the reading lists, those I find more flustering, and to me (shhh) they're skippable if your kid is swimming along. If I read the list and hate them or think they're going to fluster him, I just skip. They're usually one column out of three on the word drill pages, making them easy to skip. But in the instructional portions, those are usually pretty high quality and tight. 

 

I'm not disagreeing with Pen, because I get what she's saying. I'm just delineating how much it would be in Barton and what you're looking at, if it matters. For my ds, the tiles are really good, because it gives him the ability to move sounds around in his mind and physically, without having to write. That's why the app is so great too. We had to do a lot with helping him hear the sounds and process the sounds, so the tiles are an essential thing for him. Even today, we were doing something where he needed to spell BARN, and he couldn't hear the sounds. So to be able to slow that down, represent it physically, say hey I think we're missing a vowel here, move it around... that really helps. For him the really hard step is the discrimination, hearing the sounds. 

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Adding: The reason I taught my ds all the sounds upfront, besides me being a hack horrible person, is that he's autistic. I figured I didn't want him coming back with some rigidity saying no A can't saying /ah/ because it only says /a/, kwim? So I figured the only way to beat that was to tell him upfront that the phonograms were going to have all these sounds but that he didn't have to USE them all upfront. 

 

Psychology. :D

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Am I the only one who loves the idea of the I See Sam books but the print was just too darn small for my kids at 4-5?

With the exception of DH every single person in both sides of our families has eyesight issues.  Every one.  And many have wonky ones.  Big print is our friend.   :laugh:

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Dancing Bears is another option for an older dyslexic student. They don't use nonsense words (although there are some unfamiliar words that are common in the UK) but there is lots of decoding practice with isolated words, and the stories are so wacky that you really can't guess what's coming next. Some people object to the topics (a boy loses his clothes and has to wear a dress, and then is mistaken for a girl, and my son recently read the sentence "Paul quit the pub crawl at ten o'clock.") but honestly it helps to keep his attention. 

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Am I the only one who loves the idea of the I See Sam books but the print was just too darn small for my kids at 4-5?

 

If you get the free pdfs, you can view them on your device and make them larger. :)

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Adding: The reason I taught my ds all the sounds upfront, besides me being a hack horrible person, is that he's autistic. I figured I didn't want him coming back with some rigidity saying no A can't saying /ah/ because it only says /a/, kwim? So I figured the only way to beat that was to tell him upfront that the phonograms were going to have all these sounds but that he didn't have to USE them all upfront. 

 

Psychology. :D

 

 

I told my ds upfront that he would be learning one way that an A could sound first, and then other ways later.  Mine is not autistic but I still wanted to avoid that same sort of issue.  His name has more than one of the same vowel with a different sound for each (not Stevensen, but along those lines), so I had an easy example to use upfront about that.  I didn't teach them all upfront, just warned him of what to expect later on.

 

 

That's a way in which I think our boys could be similar.

 

In other ways, I think they are very different in what works well.  For example, you mentioned comics being good for yours. That was really hard for mine because the combo of busy page plus not having standard print font--I think.  So he had read Harry Potter novels before he was able to read his first comic style material (which was Beast Academy).

 

Getting that a and  and g and were the same letter was tough for mine.  Exact issues of font, and print size and white space between lines, and page size and color or lack thereof were important.  

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Pen, that's really fascinating! Ottakee frequently recommends the I See Sam books, and that's how they are too, very incremental. The op can find them online as pdf versions for free. I tried them with my ds, and he would read the book and have no clue about any of the words when he finished. He could literally read the same word over and over and then not recognize it on the next page.  :cursing:  So for him, that kind of repetition-drive approach couldn't work, but I can totally see where it's working for some kids! 

 

Just as a total aside, I don't think any of the dyslexia-oriented OG approaches are teaching multiple sounds upfront. SWR/WRTR, these kinds of programs do, but they're more streamlined (lite, if you will) and meant for a mainstream audience. I *did* teach all the sounds upfront to my ds while we were doing LIPS, but I'm a hack, awful person. I didn't require him to use them, but I did teach them. Didn't rattle him, but that's him. But in general, I don't think any programs meant for dyslexia want you to do that. 

 

For the op, one of the reasons they use non-sense words in dyslexia programs is to bust through their ability to guess. If you have someone who is used to guessing, the nonsense words force them to tackle the word as it's given. I can totally see where they could be an issue for some kids or fluster some kids. Just saying there's a reason why they are useful. I don't belabor them with my ds, because frankly sometimes they mystify ME as a non-dyslexic! Like seriously, I'm not dyslexic, have done plenty with linguistics and languages, and I just scratch my head on some of them. So they are skippable if it really, really bugs you. The non-sense components in Barton that are integrated into the scripted instructional portions of the lessons are usually brief and tight. I found them *helpful* for my ds because they were usually getting them to discriminate very similar sounds, something that is an issue for my ds. The non-sense words in the reading lists, those I find more flustering, and to me (shhh) they're skippable if your kid is swimming along. If I read the list and hate them or think they're going to fluster him, I just skip. They're usually one column out of three on the word drill pages, making them easy to skip. But in the instructional portions, those are usually pretty high quality and tight. 

 

I'm not disagreeing with Pen, because I get what she's saying. I'm just delineating how much it would be in Barton and what you're looking at, if it matters. For my ds, the tiles are really good, because it gives him the ability to move sounds around in his mind and physically, without having to write. That's why the app is so great too. We had to do a lot with helping him hear the sounds and process the sounds, so the tiles are an essential thing for him. Even today, we were doing something where he needed to spell BARN, and he couldn't hear the sounds. So to be able to slow that down, represent it physically, say hey I think we're missing a vowel here, move it around... that really helps. For him the really hard step is the discrimination, hearing the sounds. 

 

 

I think that I once found the I See Sam books online and that they were very different than the High Noon Sound Out Chapter books (someone told me the readers associated with Barton are based on the Sound Out Chapter Books, so, if that was true, and it may not have been, that might be an area where Barton and High Noon are more similar).

 

I guess that even what "incremental" means can differ.  What I meant is that comparing High Noon with Language!, High Noon stuck with almost entirely one syllable words for around 65 lessons. Language! had 2 or more syllable words very soon. I don't recall exactly how far in, but maybe 5 lessons or so.  

 

For my ds it was not a matter of repetition of a single word that helped. What helped him was to have first the very incremental work through each of the main short letter sounds in the main student and workbook, followed by reading ALL of the A1, A2, A3  short vowel readers (I think 9 total books, each 48 pages long as I recall), to really get the single consonant (no blends or digraphs), short vowel, one syllable "pattern" down with total fluency.  

 

[eta I think I remember the designations of the readers wrong...  might have been A1, B1, C1 for the 3 at lowest level.  Anyway,   most components of High Noon/Academic Therapy Press materials were available separately (though also some parts were in reduced price sets), so that if a child did Not need Sound Out readers you could get no readers, or anywhere from 1 to 3 sets at each level. And extra materials could be added on as needed for comprehension, spelling, visual tracking etc.  I got more than I needed. But did not really know what I needed till after getting and trying. By the time I had found High Noon, my ds was feeling extremely discouraged and I was feeling pretty desperate.]

 

 

I get what you are saying about the tiles. Tiles were sold as an extra available item from the HN publishers (I think as magnetic ones to go on a magnet board is what we got) and could be used along with High Noon, but were not integral to it and would not be included as a part of a set purchase. My ds does have dysgraphia, but could manage printing well enough to do the required written exercises with a pencil. Again, it may have helped that he was already older than your ds when he started.  

 

 [That did make me think of a game we had that used letter manipulatives and was fun when we had it, but might or might not be for an 11 year old.  It was called Word Pirates, I believe and used making words scrabble style to build paths to get from one place to another on a board. ]

 

Hearing was relatively less of an issue for my ds than some visual processing aspect of reading.  There was some hearing issue, but difficulties telling certain letters from each other visually was much greater than difficulties hearing sounds. And for that reason, I think, having relatively little based on nonsense words was important, because he did need to use some sense of what could be a word to help him discern what the letters were. [For him just the long word lists out of context were struggle enough not to add in extra  nonsense to it.]

 

[eta, and for him, I think a system that would help to fit with ultimate actual reading which uses context along with other factors as part of what was done helped rather than hindered...     At his public school they used a sight word system and then at his Waldorf school they used a word family reading system both of which definitely hindered his reading making it in a way less than just a non-reader, but rather an already mis-trained into bad habits non-reader situation. ]

 

 

(Don't want to rabbit trail this thread too far off, but,  incidentally, it just occurred to me to wonder, if dyslexia comes from something in the brain being spaced relatively farther apart than neurotypical and autism from the same whatevers  being spaced unusually close together, how would dyslexia and autism be together in the same child?  Or has that view of brain architecture of the two changed?)

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Yeah, that's what the Eides say. Then you look at the MRI study they cite and the pool was pitifully small. And with 12+ subtypes of autism (paths into autism) being discussed by researchers, it's just highly unlikely that this is a question that could be completely answered by one, 13 participant MRI study, kwim? Reality is, when you google you find LOTS AND LOTS of people saying their kids are diagnosed autism + dyslexia. And the Eides actually say in their book that they undiagnose kids as autistic and conclude it was dyslexia plus something else. That's pretty hogwash, at least around here. Nobody is disagreeing that my ds has autism. 

 

I think the DSM is the problem. My kid is exactly what he is and those other kids labeled autism + dyslexia are exactly what they are. It's the DSM that has the issue, no me. 

 

Oh, and it's multiple psychs that have said dyslexia on ds. Seriously. And a well-known reading tutor in our area. Like NOBODY is saying it's not dyslexia on him. When I take him to people who specialize in dyslexia, they say yes dyslexia, and when I take him to people who specialize in autism they say yes autism.

 

So I say it's the DSM that has the problem. If they want a real MRI study, gather these kids and see what is going on. And, fwiw, it has been a while, but I don't recall having the same wow experience with DA (Dyslexic Advantage) for him as I did for dd. Dd, ironically, is labeled ADHD, not dyslexic at all. For her, DA fits incredibly well. For ds, I think I got it out and didn't really click. So I agree it's a good question. I just don't have a good answer. 

 

Oh, get this. Total rabbit trail here. The new IS (intervention specialist) came today, looked at all our stuff, talked through things, and she wants to try a reading program meant for autism with him, one that pairs pictures and text. We'll see. She only has a few weeks this summer to try it. She was trying to wrangle with that same question of whether it's a decoding issue or a meaning issue or too busy to sit still issue or what... I thought it was intruiging. At the more sophisticated levels of it (News 2 You), they do things we had been discussing in another thread. 

News-2-You®: Cloud-based Special Education News | N2Y

 

So we'll see. We also discussed adding in some immersion reading and seeing if he's ready for that. 

 

Not to sound trite, but I find it works best right now just to use the tools and hang the labels. If the answer comes from the autism community, I'm cool with it. If it comes from the dyslexia community, I'm cool with it. If it comes from the ADHD community, I'm cool with it. My problem is where the contradict or where communities want to push or wait. Then it gets tricky, because you don't know whether to push or wait, ugh. And I take a really non-committal approach there. I'm willing to TRY something, see what happens, and back off. So far so good.

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Not to sound trite, but I find it works best right now just to use the tools and hang the labels. If the answer comes from the autism community, I'm cool with it. If it comes from the dyslexia community, I'm cool with it. If it comes from the ADHD community, I'm cool with it. My problem is where the contradict or where communities want to push or wait. Then it gets tricky, because you don't know whether to push or wait, ugh. And I take a really non-committal approach there. I'm willing to TRY something, see what happens, and back off. So far so good.

 

 

I totally agree with that, actually. "Use what works."

 

 

In terms of "what works" while there are a lot of possible programs mentioned in books on dyslexia I have read, my guess is that either High Noon or Barton would be a likely best fit for OP...  rather than Wilson, Davis, etc. etc.  That's just a gut feeling, and I could be totally wrong.

 

As between those two, it is hard to try to convey what is different to someone. So I hope she will look at as much of online samples etc. as she can.  Even let the child look at online samples and see what they are like to the extent possible.  

 

I've also tried to convey some of what sort of kid and problems my ds had for which High Noon seemed to work, in contrast perhaps to what others may have written here or elsewhere about kids for whom Barton has seemed to work.  Or maybe both work for most. I don't actually know of any failures with either High Noon or Barton. That might be worth another thread: failures with certain dyslexia friendly reading programs and why.

 

I already gave that Language! was not a fit for my ds because, for him, it moved too fast too soon.  And by the time he could read it, he was close to being able to read Rick Riordan etc. books and not to need something like that any more.

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Oh, get this. Total rabbit trail here. The new IS (intervention specialist) came today, looked at all our stuff, talked through things, and she wants to try a reading program meant for autism with him, one that pairs pictures and text. We'll see. She only has a few weeks this summer to try it. She was trying to wrangle with that same question of whether it's a decoding issue or a meaning issue or too busy to sit still issue or what... I thought it was intruiging. 

 

 

That does not seem like a rabbit trail to the original poster's issues though because figuring out what exact sort of problem(s) exist is part of trying to figure out what sort of program(s) will work best for the dc.

 

For your ds, what you have written makes it sound like the problem is Not decoding. He seems to be able to decode at an expected level for his age given the comics you report him liking etc.  He also so far as I can tell seems to be able to decode at a level that allows him to read what he wants to read. Though maybe not what you wish he would read  :) .  

 

That seems different than a child who cannot decode at all or at even close to expected level at an older age than your ds is and is feeling discouraged and stupid because he/she cannot read what he/she would like to read or what friends are reading.  Which was my ds's situation and possibly closer to what the OP presented about the girl she is trying to help.

 

 

Another factor in finding a suitable program might be looking at strengths too, not just weaknesses.  

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So the mother approached the school this week and informed them she has hired a private tutor who has assessed the child as having a 1st grade reading ability and dyslexia and wanting to know what they will also be doing to help her daughter catch up, their response was "well that explains a lot"
UM what?
Are you telling me that the school does not know they have an 11yo who STILL can't even read 20 of the top 100 words, cannot decode ANYTHING and they have no flipping idea it is that bad!?
Oh my!
They have requested I write them a report with my findings and to outline what I plan on doing with her so that they can get their act into gear and work with us. Given the degree of educational neglect so far I can't see them actually doing anything to help the situation. I will consider the report, maybe, there is still a chance this kid will be pulled out of school to be homeschooled at least for the short term to help her catch up so I will wait until the parents have made a decision on that at least. Unfortunately given the mother's reading ability homeschooling is not really a great option but anything has to be better than staying in a school where they are not helping her to learn at all and if they do decide to homeschool I will be able to help them more frequently. This whole situation sucks.

Oh, the school have decided they can offer this child 2 hours a week of one on one math instruction (but still nothing for reading!). Seriously, she does need this but it is the least of her concerns. Besides a complete lack of any math fact memorisation or any math fluency she really only has a few holes in her understanding and is capable of grade level work in most topics if given adequate time, it is only the fluency that is holding her back. If given plenty of time she would test to be almost on grade level, but a timed test would have her completely failing and years behind.

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  Is changing to homeschool being considered for right now which I assume is mid-schoolyear where you are? Or to prepare and start in your summertime? Or???

 

If you can come up with a reading program to use, and if the school is willing and able to use the same one (our schools weren't, due to official local material approval issues), maybe they could use the materials you have chosen for  her to work with her on the days she is in school and you could tutor her on the weekend days, thus giving her 7days per week practice, or maybe you could do an extra day or 2 after school with the materials.

 

If she does homeschool, what subjects can the mother manage? Math? Can they get audio, online etc. materials to use?.  It sounds like child needs to be remediated in reading as a first priority, but not to fall behind in math while that would be happening.  The rest of 5th grade probably can be made up after reading is in place as long as math doesn't end up lost in the process.

 

If you get to be 'expert from afar' making recommendation to them, maybe you could suggest part of the time in school with support there, and part of the time for home based tutoring such as to fit your schedule needs, but not to put more on the mother than the mother is capable of teaching.

 

Or could the mother also be tutored with you and then the two of them practice during times/days you cannot manage?  Or maybe she reads enough better than dd to manage that herself?

 

If you do end up getting High Noon materials, consider a second set of any readers you get to make following along easier even if just two people working together, but even more so if there could be three needing to look at materials.  The teacher manual could, I guess, go with whatever adult is at that moment overseeing the girl's work.

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Do you have standardized test scores on the math? Math SLD isn't like dyslexia, where you have a CTOPP. They usually just look at test scores and diagnose. So then you could have data to justify whether her math issues are due to low processing speed or whether they're due to math SLD or both. 

 

Some achievement testing is not timed. I think psychs have a way to sort that out too. I know the Woodcock Johnson is not timed. I don't know about the WIAT. You'd just have to see. Just saying she isn't the only one in that pickle, where they need to know the actual grade level of the student, the actual achievement, and they have to discriminate it from processing speed.

 

So do any of the teachers at the school have OG training to be QUALIFIED to tutor her in reading? How would you find that out? 

 

Has the school ever done any evals? I agree that's astonishing that they're offering 2 hours a week on math and nothing on reading. :(

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Do you have standardized test scores on the math? Math SLD isn't like dyslexia, where you have a CTOPP. They usually just look at test scores and diagnose. So then you could have data to justify whether her math issues are due to low processing speed or whether they're due to math SLD or both. 

 

Some achievement testing is not timed. I think psychs have a way to sort that out too. I know the Woodcock Johnson is not timed. I don't know about the WIAT. You'd just have to see. Just saying she isn't the only one in that pickle, where they need to know the actual grade level of the student, the actual achievement, and they have to discriminate it from processing speed.

 

So do any of the teachers at the school have OG training to be QUALIFIED to tutor her in reading? How would you find that out? 

 

Has the school ever done any evals? I agree that's astonishing that they're offering 2 hours a week on math and nothing on reading. :(

 

 

The math issues could also be dyslexia based if, for example, reading word problems is involved.  And often kids with dyslexia have a hard time with math fact memorization, neatly lining up columns of figures, etc.

 

But 2 hours of one-on-one, if with someone any good, could help.

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Oh, the school have decided they can offer this child 2 hours a week of one on one math instruction (but still nothing for reading!). 

 

 

Did they say they refuse to help with anything for reading?

 

 Or are they waiting to hear from you as the expert hired by the mom to recommend to them what to offer for reading help? From what you wrote I would have thought it was this latter situation.

 

"They have requested I write them a report with my findings and to outline what I plan on doing with her so that they can get their act into gear and work with us. "

 

How about a short letter requesting 2 hours per day --ideally in at least 2 separated sessions -- of one-on-one reading help at the school with materials and methods to be mutually agreed on (since you are still researching that). Maybe they would say they cannot give 2, but could give 1 hour.    Or maybe they'll say none.  Or, better, ask for whatever exactly and truly you think would most help at this point.  Maybe release from school to go work with you at the times that work for your family. Think of what would be most ideal at this stage and ask for it.  

 

Also maybe ask for them to provide audio materials for learning history, science etc., since it is clear she would not be able to learn from on-grade-level text books.  And help with reading all instructions, word problems, etc., plus extra time on tests.  Or whatever accommodations you think she needs to be able to succeed in learning.

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I don't know about Australia, but in the US a school would not write an IEP saying that. The total instructional time per day might be an hour for the subject, but they would include classroom time, title 1 funding time, etc. etc. in that, so that the actual time per day with an intervention specialist might only be 15 minutes. 

 

That 2 hours per week is high enough that they *might* be meaning 15 minutes of math, 15 minutes of LA, each day, each day with an IS. Or maybe they mean a pullout of 30-45 min of math every day, but that would be surprising. We have laws on least restrictive environment, so they have to do in the classroom what they can. And with funding issues, the schools commit to low levels and then try to do more, not the other way around.

 

But yeah, I don't know Australia. Just saying there's probably going to be a gap between what you WANT and what they actually DO.

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Did they say they refuse to help with anything for reading?

 

 Or are they waiting to hear from you as the expert hired by the mom to recommend to them what to offer for reading help? From what you wrote I would have thought it was this latter situation.

 

"They have requested I write them a report with my findings and to outline what I plan on doing with her so that they can get their act into gear and work with us. "

 

How about a short letter requesting 2 hours per day --ideally in at least 2 separated sessions -- of one-on-one reading help at the school with materials and methods to be mutually agreed on (since you are still researching that). Maybe they would say they cannot give 2, but could give 1 hour.    Or maybe they'll say none.  Or, better, ask for whatever exactly and truly you think would most help at this point.  Maybe release from school to go work with you at the times that work for your family. Think of what would be most ideal at this stage and ask for it.  

 

Also maybe ask for them to provide audio materials for learning history, science etc., since it is clear she would not be able to learn from on-grade-level text books.  And help with reading all instructions, word problems, etc., plus extra time on tests.  Or whatever accommodations you think she needs to be able to succeed in learning.

 

Pen they are refusing to offer any help for reading at all, even with my report. They want the report so that they know what methods I will be using mostly just so that they know, but also so that they can make sure that any explicit teaching that may occur at school does not directly clash with what she will be learning at home. There might be hope that they will change their tune this week, this child is part aboriginal and as such she is in a "high risk" group which means the school gets more funding for her but the family can also access advocates. The mother has set up a meeting between herself, the principal and someone from the local indigenous advocate group to try and get the school to help her child in reading. We will see what comes of this meeting (on Tuesday) before making any recommendations or asking for any additional time.

 

And Pen, yes pulling her out to homeschool is being considered for any time between now and the end of this year so part way through the school year, or for next year. It really depends on what the school will offer in terms of additional support, if they start supporting and helping her she will stay in and see if they can offer enough to make a difference, if they continue to do nothing or not enough then she will be pulled out. There is no point her being in school at this point without that additional support.

 

As the the math, it sounds like they mean an hour pull out instruction weekly and then an hour of time weekly with an aid in class. I think we will know more on that too after Tuesday. It was for math only, they do not believe that her reading problems or level are significant enough issues to warrant additional teaching or remediation. According to the school she is "only 3 grades behind" in reading (I say 4) and that is not significant enough to worry about :ohmy: I doubt there is anyone OG trained at the school, that is not something that is used here.

 

I don't have any standardized test scores but there is a good chance the school has some, standardized tests are done in 3rd and 5th grades so unless her mother decided to refuse the testing she would have done it about 3 months ago. They generally do not release individual scores except to the school so I am not sure if we would be able to access them. I would say that this might be the reason for the one on one math time, the tests are mostly word questions here and also on very tight times, I can't imagine she did well at all under those conditions. I have not actually sat down with her to do math as such, I have observed her while playing board games with my kids (she struggles to add 3 dice together) and I have seen her work on a couple of problems on prodigy and need to count on her fingers to work out 16-6. But eventually she will usually get the right answer even on harder questions, it just takes forever. There is clearly something going on there too but as she CAN get the answers and she cannot read we will focus on the reading for now as we will have limited time together. I am working on a list of games to suggest to the mother which use the basic math skills so that they can play together at home as a family and she will have a reason to practice her basic math facts frequently, hopefully she will be able to gain at least some fluency in the very basics by using them often, any degree of math fluency will help.

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Pen they are refusing to offer any help for reading at all, even with my report. They want the report so that they know what methods I will be using mostly just so that they know, but also so that they can make sure that any explicit teaching that may occur at school does not directly clash with what she will be learning at home. There might be hope that they will change their tune this week, this child is part aboriginal and as such she is in a "high risk" group which means the school gets more funding for her but the family can also access advocates. The mother has set up a meeting between herself, the principal and someone from the local indigenous advocate group to try and get the school to help her child in reading. We will see what comes of this meeting (on Tuesday) before making any recommendations or asking for any additional time.

 

And Pen, yes pulling her out to homeschool is being considered for any time between now and the end of this year so part way through the school year, or for next year. It really depends on what the school will offer in terms of additional support, if they start supporting and helping her she will stay in and see if they can offer enough to make a difference, if they continue to do nothing or not enough then she will be pulled out. There is no point her being in school at this point without that additional support.

 

As the the math, it sounds like they mean an hour pull out instruction weekly and then an hour of time weekly with an aid in class. I think we will know more on that too after Tuesday. It was for math only, they do not believe that her reading problems or level are significant enough issues to warrant additional teaching or remediation. According to the school she is "only 3 grades behind" in reading (I say 4) and that is not significant enough to worry about :ohmy: I doubt there is anyone OG trained at the school, that is not something that is used here.

 

I don't have any standardized test scores but there is a good chance the school has some, standardized tests are done in 3rd and 5th grades so unless her mother decided to refuse the testing she would have done it about 3 months ago. They generally do not release individual scores except to the school so I am not sure if we would be able to access them. I would say that this might be the reason for the one on one math time, the tests are mostly word questions here and also on very tight times, I can't imagine she did well at all under those conditions. I have not actually sat down with her to do math as such, I have observed her while playing board games with my kids (she struggles to add 3 dice together) and I have seen her work on a couple of problems on prodigy and need to count on her fingers to work out 16-6. But eventually she will usually get the right answer even on harder questions, it just takes forever. There is clearly something going on there too but as she CAN get the answers and she cannot read we will focus on the reading for now as we will have limited time together. I am working on a list of games to suggest to the mother which use the basic math skills so that they can play together at home as a family and she will have a reason to practice her basic math facts frequently, hopefully she will be able to gain at least some fluency in the very basics by using them often, any degree of math fluency will help.

 

 

Wow!

 

 

If she is pulled out to homeschool what happens financially?  Does the school / district lose money by losing her? And does that make for any incentive to do something, or do they just not care?

 

 

How strenuous are the requirements there to homeschool? And is there any help offered to homeschoolers?

 

Did you say there was also a sister?

 

Anyway, I hope the meeting on Tuesday goes well!!!

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Wow!

 

 

If she is pulled out to homeschool what happens financially?  Does the school / district lose money by losing her? And does that make for any incentive to do something, or do they just not care?

 

 

How strenuous are the requirements there to homeschool? And is there any help offered to homeschoolers?

 

Did you say there was also a sister?

 

Anyway, I hope the meeting on Tuesday goes well!!!

 

The school does not lose any money this year, funding is paid at the beginning of a school year and stays with the school once it is paid even if the child leaves or moves schools, if they are pulled then the school loses the funding for them for next year. Frankly, the school just does not care and the funding these girls bring to the school does not get spent on them at all.

 

Yes there is a sister. She is 7 and has ASD. She has no obvious learning disabilities however spends more time sent out of the room for "behavior issues" rather than in class. They will both be pulled together if it comes to homeschooling.

 

Homeschooling in our state is not regulated at all, there is no assistance or help of any kind but on the other hand, the only requirements to get registered are to send in a copy of their birth certificate and fill in a 1 page document stating that you intend to offer educational opportunities to your children in their home and that you will cover (in any manner you choose) the key learning areas. That's it. Registration only takes a few minutes and no one bothers to check on anything.  There is some limited funding you can apply for if you are homeschooling for certain reasons (medical conditions, anxiety etc) so hopefully they would qualify for that which will help get them set up with some resources and access to professional assistance. Due to the mother's limited reading and education homeschooling really is not a great choice, but school might be a worse choice. There is no good option at this stage.

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Wow, my eyes are bugging out at the thought that the mom would pull both an ASD sibling and an older sibling with significant SLDs in need of intensive intervention. My snarky observation is the ASD sibling may very well have SLDs and the awesome school system probably hasn't identified them. My realistic side, having a ds with ASD who has significantly challenging behaviors, is that is almost an astonishingly unrealistic expectation to think they'll bring both complex situations home at the same time and have it work out. I would bring home the older, SLD-only dc for a semester, get intensive intervention and some routines going there, THEN bring home the next dc. That would be my sage advice.

 

My ds has an IEP that does not have a mainstreamed placement because of his behaviors. We homeschool him, but I'm just saying I know what his paperwork says, I know how hard he is to work with, and that mama ain't gonna have no time for her older dc once she brings home the younger one. My ds is a full-time job and he WEARS ME OUT. I bring in workers 4 days a week to work with him so that I get a break. I know there are people on the boards who keep up all day, and that's awesome. I'm just saying realistically *I* don't. We're better with help, and that would be astonishingly hard to bring home both challenging situations at once. 

 

It sounds like the older needs a math SLD diagnosis as well, btw. If you have oodles of time, look up Ronit Bird.

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 Due to the mother's limited reading and education homeschooling really is not a great choice, but school might be a worse choice. There is no good option at this stage.

 

Unless the placement for the dc with autism is not working, I would encourage them to leave him/her there for the time being. Like I'm all in favor of homeschooling, but that's going to be a lot to bring home at once. School *can* be good with autism. There's a lot of structure, routine, consistency, follow- through. These are kids who thrive on structure, routine, and consistency. With school they get herd effect. Now sometimes it's really not good, like it's just overwhelming all day with the sensory and social, then fine. But if it's just an oh pull 'em both, well they might not realize how challenging the dc really is to work with. 

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oodles of time lol, I have 4 kids one of which also has ASD, all I have is ooodles of mess and books :P

looking up ronit bird now, I got sick of the kids fighting inside and sent them out, we have 1.5 acres they can fight on, they don't need to be under my chair

 

The 7yo is having all sorts of issues at school and it is affecting the entire family. I agree, I would take out the older first and get in a routine and get a feel for everything and then take out the younger next year once both mother and older child have settled in to homeschooling and worked out what works for them

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At the moment we are getting together 2 times a week for an hour at a time. I am just using resources I have on my shelf until we hit a problem that I cannot deal with using the current resources. This way I know exactly where she is at and I should have the most possible information to make a decision on the best program to purchase when we hit that stage. So far things are going really well, much better than I expected actually. Both mother and daughter are very dedicated to sorting this out and they are working together every evening, I am sending home work for them to do and instructing the mother in how to do it correctly. It is too early to see any major improvements as we have only had 3 sessions but she is starting to sound out unfamiliar CVC words which is a pretty big step forward already.

 

And in some really exciting news, the school decided to test her themselves as they did not trust my assessment of 1st grade reading level. Well guess what, she IS first grade level! She can read some harder words from memory or good guesses but she also has some holes in her kindergarten level skills. She is now getting one on one reading help in school, it is only 20 minutes 3 times a week but it is a great start. They have started her back at the same place as I have, reviewing and practicing letter sounds and filling in the gaps (as there were 9 she actually did not know!) and sounding out VC and CVC words.

 

All in all things are looking up. She is making progress even in such a short time, the school is now on board, and we are starting to get the gaps in the very early reading knowledge filled in. I will keep you updated on our progress :)

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Your student needs audio books and to receive classroom accommodations. Homework should be reduced by half across all subjects, and she should be given extra test taking time. The school needs to set this student up with the appropriate devices pronto. I don't know what Oz has wrt to free audiobook services, but she needs the exposure to language. Good luck!

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We are getting an audio book library sorted right now. There is not a lot in terms of free stuff available here, a few at the library but that's it, but the mum is buying a couple a week online so soon enough there should be a good collection happening. And there are free ones online too.

 

At to classroom accommodation, it looks like the school has finally realized the extent of the issue and is now going to start being of assistance. Before this they were saying this child was only a year, maybe 2 max, behind her peers and that was not enough in their opinion to warrant classroom accommodations and extra assistance, now they have realized she is actually 5 years behind they are starting to work with the child and her family. We will see how this pans out and the extent of the assistance that is actually given long term, the school has only come to the party in the last week so they are still working out the details and putting plans in action.  We will see what happens but so far the news on the school front is a lot more promising.

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