S/O Do you wear a head covering?

[MercyA]

I agree totally with this, and if you're putting out your reasons, I can add mine.   ;)  No one need change their views over either.

 

IME too many people look at the Bible as a rulebook.  I see it as a guidebook for living.  If God had wanted to give us a rulebook, He could/would have been far more clear on it.  Rulebooks are easy to make - think 10 Commandments.  By giving us a guidebook we spend far more time thinking/contemplating/discussing, etc - even seeking out thoughts.  That, I believe, was His intent for "everyday" life.

 

One doesn't have to spend much thought on 2+2 = 4.  Get into more complex math and math gets far more interesting, often with several options for correctly solving a problem.

 

For sure! That's the beauty of a chat board like this.  :)

 

I agree that the NT is a guidebook, but that doesn't mean it isn't a rulebook for life as well. As Paul wrote just a few chapters after his instructions on head covering and communion: "the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord." And then we have Jesus saying things like, "If you love Me, keep My commandments" and John writing, "...By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments."

 

There is plenty of talk about commandments in the NT. I don't believe Christians are under the law given to Israel, and I do believe that we have been given much freedom as believers, but we do have our own "rules" as well.

 

If one of the tests of my love for Jesus is following his commandments, I definitely want to search those out and live according to them, to the best of my understanding and ability.

 

ETA: And, I hope it goes without saying, the greatest commandments are to love God and love our neighbor: "...If I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing." 

Edited July 10, 2017 by MercyA

[creekland]

If one of the tests of my love for Jesus is following his commandments, I definitely want to search those out and live according to them, to the best of my understanding and ability.

 

Ditto.  My life is 100% guided by my beliefs from The Bible/God.  ;)

[Bluegoat]

I'm not sure what the identity of the reigning pope would have to do with it. While it's true that Benedict was more given to hats, I don't recall either him or Francis wearing chapel veils.

 

I think it was related to the establishment of more congregations using the Latin mass regularly.

[eternalsummer]

I see - I thought by "nature" he meant biology, but he actually meant cultural norms, which makes a lot more sense.  So would you say that in a society where men do/did wear long hair as a status symbol, or one where women cut their hair short normally (I am sure I have seen this at least in some African societies), covering would not be necessary?

[milovany]

This is actually the "straw that broke the camel's back," as it were, as I/our family converted to the Eastern Orthodox church after 20+ years in the evangelical protestant world.  Prior to becoming interested in Orthodoxy, I studied this topic up and down, left and right.  I did a word study looking up each and every word in the Corinthians section and looked at all the direct and implied meanings.  I came to the conclusion that women should cover in church especially and maybe all the time (didn't quite finish that study).  I started wearing a headcovering to church even though no one else in the congregation (except 1-2 other ladies who did sometimes).  Then I got exhausted from all the work in evangelicalism that being guided by "personal conviction" entails.  (This is my story, btw, not putting it on anyone else.)  After that time, I came to the point of feeling like "Really?!  It's been 2000 years.  Hasn't any of this been figured out by now?  Why are we still trying to decide things like headcovering after 2000 years?" and as I read about the EO Church, I started realizing, yes, this has been figured out long before now.  Now, that's not to say there's unity TODAY in the EO church on this -- some ladies cover, some don't -- but back at the beginning, women covered and the historical, traditional practice is to cover.  You see it in the icons -- the Theotokos always has a headcovering on, as do all the female saints except St Mary of Egypt (that I know of).  In the parish through which we came to the EO, most of the women cover.  So instead of me deciding that my personal conviction was to cover, I just covered because that's what was done.  It was the culture I was choosing to be a part of.  So I cover for all church services/liturgical practices.  

 

Again, my story and there will be some variation and differences with other Orthodox Christian women, but the question was why do I cover so I answered.  

 

And I'm painting a house we're closing on tomorrow, so I'm going away again now and heading back to that.  Buenos dias!

[desertstrawberry5]

I had no idea that headcovering was done for other than religious reasons. Would someone be willing to share about this further?

Head covering is customary in some cultures, and quite practical. My reason is much more practical than religious.

Edited July 10, 2017 by desertstrawberry5

[Bluegoat]

This is actually the "straw that broke the camel's back," as it were, as I/our family converted to the Eastern Orthodox church after 20+ years in the evangelical protestant world.  Prior to becoming interested in Orthodoxy, I studied this topic up and down, left and right.  I did a word study looking up each and every word in the Corinthians section and looked at all the direct and implied meanings.  I came to the conclusion that women should cover in church especially and maybe all the time (didn't quite finish that study).  I started wearing a headcovering to church even though no one else in the congregation (except 1-2 other ladies who did sometimes).  Then I got exhausted from all the work in evangelicalism that being guided by "personal conviction" entails.  (This is my story, btw, not putting it on anyone else.)  After that time, I came to the point of feeling like "Really?!  It's been 2000 years.  Hasn't any of this been figured out by now?  Why are we still trying to decide things like headcovering after 2000 years?" and as I read about the EO Church, I started realizing, yes, this has been figured out long before now.  Now, that's not to say there's unity TODAY in the EO church on this -- some ladies cover, some don't -- but back at the beginning, women covered and the historical, traditional practice is to cover.  You see it in the icons -- the Theotokos always has a headcovering on, as do all the female saints except St Mary of Egypt (that I know of).  In the parish through which we came to the EO, most of the women cover.  So instead of me deciding that my personal conviction was to cover, I just covered because that's what was done.  It was the culture I was choosing to be a part of.  So I cover for all church services/liturgical practices.  

 

Again, my story and there will be some variation and differences with other Orthodox Christian women, but the question was why do I cover so I answered.  

 

And I'm painting a house we're closing on tomorrow, so I'm going away again now and heading back to that.  Buenos dias!

 

 

Hmm.  But wouldn't that suggest that the Church views the practice as related to the dominant cultural mode?

[milovany]

Hmm.  But wouldn't that suggest that the Church views the practice as related to the dominant cultural mode?

 

I don't think so, no.  I think the practice had been adapted (or not used) by certain cultures, jurisdictions and parishes, but I don't think it's the historical traditional practice to forgo headcovering. But it's not a hill to die on in Orthodoxy either.  

[Bluegoat]

I don't think so, no.  I think the practice had been adapted (or not used) by certain cultures, jurisdictions and parishes, but I don't think it's the historical traditional practice to forgo headcovering. But it's not a hill to die on in Orthodoxy either.  

 

I guess that''s what I mean thouugh.  It's not really the historic tradition to forgo it anywhere, because women have tended to wear head-coverings outside of church as well.  But history didn't end in the first half of the 20th century. 

[MercyA]

I see - I thought by "nature" he meant biology, but he actually meant cultural norms, which makes a lot more sense.  So would you say that in a society where men do/did wear long hair as a status symbol, or one where women cut their hair short normally (I am sure I have seen this at least in some African societies), covering would not be necessary?

 

No, I believe the instruction would still be applicable for Christians in those cultures. Paul bolsters his argument with an appeal to nature, but if a particular culture did not have the more prevalent tendency towards longer hair for women / shorter hair for men, a covering would still be a symbol of Biblical order (God-Christ-man-woman) and would still, presumably, be done "because of the angels." 

 

I would add that, to me, this isn't one of the more "weightier" matters in Scripture. Jesus said,"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others." Wearing a head covering is my "tithe of mint"--not something to neglect, but not one of the most significant matters, either (here is a good blog post on this, not written by me).

[creekland]

I would add that, to me, this isn't one of the more "weightier" matters in Scripture. Jesus said,"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others." Wearing a head covering is my "tithe of mint"--not something to neglect, but not one of the most significant matters, either (here is a good blog post on this, not written by me).

 

I see it more of a Romans 14 deal.  (And I'm NOT saying you - or I - are judging).  This is just how I see this matter - where it fits in the scheme of things.  I also agree with you that it certainly isn't a weightier matter either way one believes.  There are far more verses in the Bible about respecting and being fair/nice to others of all persuasions from brothers to aliens/foreigners among us and rich/poor, etc, than there are relating to this issue. 

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14%3A1-23&version=ESV

 

4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master[a] that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

 

"22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. "

[MercyA]

I see it more of a Romans 14 deal.  (And I'm NOT saying you - or I - are judging).  This is just how I see this matter - where it fits in the scheme of things.  I also agree with you that it certainly isn't a weightier matter either way one believes.  There are far more verses in the Bible about respecting and being fair/nice to others of all persuasions from brothers to aliens/foreigners among us and rich/poor, etc, than there are relating to this issue. 

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14%3A1-23&version=ESV

 

4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master[a] that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

 

"22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. "

 

I totally agree that it's not something on which to judge others. Great verses.

 

I've always thought Romans 14 as a passage, though, applies more to matters of conscience for which we don't have clear instructions in the NT, like the examples Paul gives--eating meat or vegetables only, observing special days, etc. I would say that we do have instructions on head covering, just like we do on communion and baptism. But I know many people today do consider it a matter of conscience and/or not applicable to them and, as you point out, that is between them and God.

 

ETA: And amen on respecting and helping foreigners and the poor.  :)

Edited July 11, 2017 by MercyA