Help Me Set Boundaries with the Neighbor Girl

[MommyLiberty5013]

EDITED It's been a horrible day. You all would be shocked by what I faced this afternoon. I am not going to respond to any more comments here. But, if you're interested: here are the facts because someone suggested I should update here.

 

1. Deb and her DH have their own issues educationally and developmentally with Joy. Joy was given an opportunity to bring a swim suit, Joy opted not to. Deb needed to enforce Joy not being able to borrow Kay's suit. I personally thought it was a GREAT idea Kay offered (showed her kindness, willingness to help, problem solving, etc.) I said so and was ready to accept the offer on Joy's behalf, but Deb said no. As a parent, though, I may not agree with a choice of another parent, Deb is my friend and knows her kiddos the best so I look to her on that and won't tell her she's "mean" as some PP suggested I should thus contradicting what Deb intends.

 

2. The go-kart is gas powered. DS is permitted to drive it, no one else is due to age and maturity - not even his other buddies. Other kids, including his siblings, can ride as a passenger (it is a two seater). Kay is and has always been welcome to be a passenger. She is not permitted to get behind the wheel. This is a rule she routinely attempts to push boundaries on, which is one of the main reasons I first posted about it.The go-kart comes out only when DH is home. It is his thing more than mine and he knows what to do to it if it stops, stalls, or gets stuck, so I don't deal with it when he is gone as I do not possess that mechanical know-how. DS can ride it all over our property and he does. We can observe him from wherever. The supervision comes in on the kart itself - it has had some gas cap issues and sometimes it needs restarts so DH supervises that. My son is not a hellion.

 

3. I like Kay. I welcome Kay and I enjoy her family. They watch our home when we're gone and take in our mail. We get their trash bins and help out with Kay when we can. To the posters who have wrongly suggested I dislike her, that's not true. To the posters who've suggested I want to parent her to be like my kids, I do not and will not. I meet her with smiles and I help her get her things she needs help with or give her ice when she falls down. I do believe in an authority figure in childrens' lives. As I am the adult, property owner, parent, and buyer of the all the things they are eating and doing or using, I would say that authority legitimately falls to me when kids are in my home. If that sounds like I lord that over them, no I do not. I listen to opinions of kids and consider other ideas. I am actually glad to make my kids and their friends happy and comfortable but including them in discussions. Everyone has their boundaries. I came here seeking advice with one neighbor child who was repeatedly pushing boundaries on established rules for safety.

 

4. Dangling the legs and arms out of the shed loft door (6-7' up), was an issue on this particular day this family was visiting. There is a play space up there, and some of the other family's littles were up there. As the property owner and parent, and mirroring Deb's concern in asking her own children not to dangle as a little could have tried too and lost their balance, I asked Kay to honor that as well. She received an explanation, "The littles will try to do it too and they are not as stable as you are and could fall out."

 

5. To the poster who so hurtfully insulted my kids, making it seem like I'm a poor mother because I am strict (and how much they must be suffering). Just. I cannot even go there. They are happy, delightful, smiley children and I love them fiercely. Every time we are in public, my kids are the most social and kindhearted children other people see and they tell us so. All the time, so I may be doing it really well with my balance of strictness and love. Life is tough, and after today and the violation I faced at a place that was supposed to be safe, and then come here read crap from people who take a few sentences out of context, don't read, but then post somewhat mean and not helpful things, I am at a loss and just hurt.

 

6. I am considering this discussion CLOSED. To those of you who posted thoughtfully and were helpful with ideas, I really appreciate it. I hope to incorporate some of that into future interactions with Kay on the snacks, and the rules, etc.. I think you got a lot of what I was saying. More than anything, this helped me see that since Kay is older than my kids, this may just be a new phase of childhood I have not yet experienced as a parent. To those of you who have entered the older kids' waters, you helped me a lot.

 

 

 

 

We live in a rural location. We do have a set of neighbors, though and next door is a couple with grown children. Now that public school is out for the summer, their granddaughter, Kay (not her real name) is at their home all day, every day, while her parents both work full-time jobs. Generally, grandma is home and sets many boundaries for Kay. Grandpa is more, "Eh, whatever." But both grandparents are caring people and we have a good neighbor relationship with them and we like them as well as people and we all trust ne another. It is an important relationship to keep.

 

But Kay is very pushy. With my kids, with me, and with my husband. She is 8.

 

I am a strong person, and I take NO crap from my kids and we parent with it being our way or the highway when it comes to our own children (DS-7. DD 5. DS 4. DD 10 months). We run a tight ship and sass, lip, contradiction, disobedience, and rudeness are causes for consequences.

 

Kay will openly challenge DH and me to our faces and in front of our kids. When she sees we are home and our kids are outside, she bounds over. My children like her and I do not want to deny them a neighbor friend as we do not have any others. Denying play time with her would be VERY awkward with her grandparents and our relationship as we need to rely on one another along our gravel road.

 

For example, yesterday we had a play date here with some friends with five kiddos under 9. We have a shed and there is a loft door, 6-7' off the ground. The rule is no one can stick their legs or arms out of it and essentially hang body parts out. This was especially important yesterday when some littles were over (I trust my own kids, but am always extra cautious with other children around).

 

Kay was dangling both legs out and I told her, "Kay, please put your legs back, we don't hang out of the loft door here. And the little kids are watching you." She looks at me and does it anyways.

 

Or, we have a gas powered go-kart and only DS who is 7 is permitted to drive it and only on our property and only when DH is home and outside. One weekend, the go-kart needed some work, DH was fixing it and Kay asked him when she could drive it. He explained, yet again (for the millionth time), that only DS was permitted to drive it, but she could ride with him. She pushed. "Why?" He responded. After this, DH pulled DS over and said, "When I leave you here to play, Kay is going to push you to drive this kart. You say 'no' and blame it on me." Sure enough, DH leaves, Kay pressures DS. Thankfully, DS stood his ground.

 

Today, she told my kids she was leaving for soccer practice. My kids came to the deck door asking for popsicles without Kay as they thought Kay had left. I happily obliged. Then, five minutes later, Kay comes over and wants one. I say, "Do you have practice tonight?" "Oh, yes, I do but it's not for a long while. Can I have a popsicle?" So I give her one and immediately she disappears and goes home to grandparents' house to leave for practice...and I feel like I am feeding the "neighborhood."

 

There are many more examples, but it is too much to write/read.

 

So, she is nice. She's just pushy. She wants snacks all the time. She challenges authority and it is like the first week of summer and I want to be nice, but I find her SO SO SO annoying. Ugh. I feel so bad saying that about a child. I hide my feelings and act smiley and chipper with her. I do say "no" when "no" is needed, but I feel like I am wearing thin and I have many more weeks to go.

 

Any advice?

Edited June 17, 2017 by MommyLiberty5013

[prairiewindmomma]

Send little Kay home when she won't follow your house rules. Be sweet and tell her she's welcome back when she can mind herself.

Buy inexpensive snacks.

[Ottakee]

She might need more direct instruction. Stay firm with your NO.

 

If your kids are having a snack while she is over and you can afford it, give her one too. If she says she is hungry and it is not snack time for your kids tell her to run back to grandmas for a snack....or if that doesn't work call Grandma and say "I am sending Kay back as she is hungry. She is welcome to come back and play ....." (Whatever works for you). Either she will quit begging as she doesn't want to be sent back or she will go home and eat and give you a break.

[Guest]

Send little Kay home when she won't follow your house rules. Be sweet and tell her she's welcome back when she can mind herself.

Buy inexpensive snacks.

 

:iagree:  

 

Yep. Like with the tree house- I would've made everyone get out and had a talk right then and there about the rules. If she doesn't like it, she's free to leave, but my house, my rules. They're there for a reason and not up for debate at the moment. If she still refused, I would calmly say let me walk you home and let your Grandmother know what happened. And then I would. Unfortunately it seems like you might need to have pretty constant oversight with her. Hopefully the newness will wear off and she won't be over as often. 

 

And agree on the buy cheap snacks. Or eat them indoors before going out to play. 

[cjzimmer1]

Even though it might be awkward, send her home.  She's not going to learn boundaries until she is forced to.  She is going to hold you hostage until you teach her you are not a pushover and your rules stand.

 

As far as snacks go, she wasn't there when you handed them out, so there is no way I would have given her one when she showed up.  Sorry I don't have any more at the moment is true unless you were still holding them in your hand because in "That moment" you didn't have them.  Also while I'm willing to share on my terms, kids who boldly ask/"beg" for treats really annoy me and I definitely would not be giving out any then.

 

But otherwise, just keep cheap snacks around for those times she is there.

[Ravin]

I would be "my house, my rules" and let the grandparents know that if she violates one of your house rules--which from your description are largely in place for safety--you will ask her to leave for that afternoon. With grandparents to back you up it should be much better.

 

As for the popsicle, I wouldn't sweat it. The lying would bother me more. I'd let the grandparents know about that.

[PeppermintPattie]

If she attends school, she's probably used to obeying, so you won't have to work very hard to convince her that you mean what you say.  I'd send her home for the rest of the day whenever she doesn't obey, argues, or lies to you. But I'd discuss it with the grandparents first: "When Kay comes over, I have a hard time getting her to follow our rules. From now on, if there's another problem, I'm going to send her home immediately, but we'd love to have her come back and try again the next day." 

[lynn]

The way I handled my neighborhood "problem child" is to say "it's time for you to go home for the day. You're being (disrespectful, rude what ever and not following our house rules". I don't believe in banning kids unless they are hurting others or putting others or themselves in danger or damaging property, stealing etc. You send her home enough she'll come around and understand you won't allow....at your home.

[SKL]

I agree, just be consistent and tell her that she needs to go home for a while if she's having trouble listening.  Try not to let it "get to you."  She's 8yo and really does not know this is poor behavior.  But don't feel bad about sending her home.  If the grandparents ask about it, smile and say she needed to understand that you really mean it when you set safety rules.  But she's welcome back after she has a little time to think about it.

[clementine]

Yep to all of the above.

"Kay, you're having trouble respecting our rules. It's time for you to go home now, but you're welcome back when you can follow them."

[zoobie]

Send her home each time. I would send her home for the day and tell her she can try following the rules again tomorrow. If you say "until you can follow them," she will keep saying I will follow them now! 

 

As far as food goes, if you don't want to get in the habit of giving her snacks (and you don't know whether her grandparents want her eating popsicles right before dinner or whatever), send her home when she is hungry. Tell her she can run home and get a snack and come back (if it's okay to come back and play later).

[MommyLiberty5013]

Thanks. The fresh, outsider perspective helped. Especially on the snack issue - I think if she's asking for snacks outside of my own kids' snack time, I will advise her to run home and grab one. I don't mind giving her one when my kids are eating one anyways.

[J-rap]

Be nice, but send her home, telling her you hope she changes her mind and decides to go along with your house rules, because you enjoy having her over.  I also like Zoobie's idea of saying she will need to wait till the next day until she comes over and tries again.

 

I also agree with Zoobie's idea of sending her home when she is hungry, otherwise you'll be feeding her all summer.  Or if your kids are hungry, feel comfortable in telling her that it's time for her to go home for awhile, because your kids are going to have some snacks and quiet time. (Or whatever.)

 

 

 

 

 

[sassenach]

Since you've trained a few kids to be obedient, you're familiar with the drill. Firm boundaries. 

 

The loft door- "I'm sorry, Kay, you need to go home now. Next time I need you to obey me. You can try again another day."

Anytime she disobeys you, send her home.

 

The go-cart (if she asks again)- "Kay, what were you told last time? Next time you ask me I am going to send you home to remember."

Anytime she pushes a boundary that you have already set, send her home.

 

The popsicle- eh, I'd get over this one. Kids like food. But if she's super snacky, I would send her home to eat. "You seem hungry, Kay. It's time for you to go home and eat a meal. You can come back in 1 hour" 

Invest in popcorn and other cheap snacks. I like feeding the neighborhood (especially if it's just 1 neighbor), so this doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. 

 

I know kids like this. They're clever, they push boundaries (especially if this works in other areas of their life), but they also tend to fall into line. I've trained more than a few neighbor kids and I think it's worth it. Summer playmates are fun.

 

My tips-

 

*Consistently send her home for disobedience

*Consistently send her home for breaking established rules

*Send her home when you're annoyed with her or just need a break. This is more sustainable than fostering a growing dislike for a kid.

*Send her home with a come back time- "You can come back in an hour, at x time, tomorrow, etc."

 

Good luck!

[bolt.]

All of the above!

 

In addition, you might need to find two definitions of "respect for your authority" -- one of them is following instructions/rules. This one is focused on your ability to actively and effectively rule your territory your way. It's the easy one, and the one that is most reasonable for you to be enforcing.

 

The other kind of "respect for authority" is about kids having a specific demeanour and pattern of speaking that meets your expectations because it has verbal markers of deference. This is not quite as reasonable. Many children respect adult authority (they follow instructions), but it is increasingly uncommon for that functional respect to be accompanied by the verbal pattern of: "No questioning, no visible feelings (like resentment), no sarcasm, no advocating for what you want."

 

I think you need to overlook a child speaking her mind (because many parents prefer that, and it's a parenting call) as long as she *functionally* respects your instructions, rules and boundaries.

 

You don't need to teach her "better" manners -- you just need to make sure she is under control on your property.

[myfunnybunch]

I warned our neighbor girl that if she didn't follow the rules at our house, she'd be sent home for the day. And then I did it. "Oops, time for you to go home. Next time, please follow xyz house rule. You can come back to play tomorrow." And when she came back, we welcomed her back, clean slate. It didn't take long for her to be more responsive to direction.

 

I'm really grateful we did that. She became a mostly pleasant guest and is still good friends with my daughter. They're in their twenties now.

 

Snacks, we just feed anyone who's here. :)

[JudoMom]

I recently had this conversation with a kid who wouldn't stop asking for something:

 

When the kid asked again, I finally said "I already said no. Guess what the answer is going to be the next time you ask?". The kid said "no". I said "That's right! And what do you think the answer will be after that?". He smiled and said "no". I then said "Do you notice a pattern here?". He said "yes" and didn't ask again.

[Harriet Vane]

The others have given great advice. I will just add these two tips--

 

--When you send her away, specify exactly when she will be welcome to return. In an hour? In the afternoon? Tomorrow?

 

--When there are consequences, you can affirm that you like her. "Kay, we like you tremendously, but you disobeyed our rule about xyz. You'll have to head home now, but you can come tomorrow to play if you like."

[NorthwestMom]

I agree with everyone else.

 

It's like potty training. You will  have to put in a bunch of effort up front, but it makes your life MUCH easier after it's done.

[MommyLiberty5013]

All of the above!

 

In addition, you might need to find two definitions of "respect for your authority" -- one of them is following instructions/rules. This one is focused on your ability to actively and effectively rule your territory your way. It's the easy one, and the one that is most reasonable for you to be enforcing.

 

The other kind of "respect for authority" is about kids having a specific demeanour and pattern of speaking that meets your expectations because it has verbal markers of deference. This is not quite as reasonable. Many children respect adult authority (they follow instructions), but it is increasingly uncommon for that functional respect to be accompanied by the verbal pattern of: "No questioning, no visible feelings (like resentment), no sarcasm, no advocating for what you want."

 

I think you need to overlook a child speaking her mind (because many parents prefer that, and it's a parenting call) as long as she *functionally* respects your instructions, rules and boundaries.

 

You don't need to teach her "better" manners -- you just need to make sure she is under control on your property.

Yeah, I am not trying to "teach" her manners - not my job and I do not want to. I think you hit on a really good point, though, by stating the "specific demeanor" with "verbal markers of deference" concepts. In fact, aside from her blatant disregard for rules and on-going snacking at our house, I feel you hit on EXACTLY what my issue is. It is the deference.

 

In our home school community, we see, and I guess inadvertently teach, respect for authority and that means parents whether they are the kids' own parents or not. Our respect for authority does include deference and demeanor - when an adult gives a reasonable and safe direction, it is to be followed, no questions asked and no asserting the child's own authority, or opinion, into the situation.

 

That hits on another episode from yesterday. My friend, Deb (not real name) gave her eldest daughter, Joy, an opportunity to bring her swimsuit along to our home in case we used the sprinkler. Her daughter decided not to bring it. This mom is working on a concept with this child of making a decision and sticking to it.

 

When Joy heard that Kay had a slip 'n slide, she wanted to play too, and Deb told her she didn't have a suit and that was the decision she had made and had to live with it. I was a bit surprised at the strictness, but I know the parents and child and can see why this learning lesson needed to occur. I, of course, kept out of it.

 

Kay piped up and just said, "Oh, I have an extra suit she can use. So that's fine. Can't she do that?" Deb stood there in a awkward spot; she clearly parented her own daughter, but here was neighbor contradicting her. I stepped in and told the kids to all go to the basement to play while Mrs. Deb and I discussed it and that gave Deb some time to separate Joy and explain the issues and work out a solution.

 

Pretty much every child I know would stay out of a parent/child discussion. So, yes, a lack of deference bothers me.

 

 

I just do not consider kids on the same level as adults, which is why I think the deference issue bugs me. I love them. I respect them as humans, as people, and as individuals, but there has to be a pecking order, so to speak. Not everybody gets to be in charge or to have a say. I think we (as a society in general) are not doing our kids any favors when we teach them to always speak their mind and make their wants known.

 

We need to teach children/minors discernment to know when to speak up - what is a TRUE reason to speak up? I think a true reason to speak up is when something that is objective is wrong, immoral, unsafe, and/or illegal. If they have a preference, and the person with whom they are interacting is not their parent or guardian, I think it is proper for the child to remain quiet until and if their opinion is asked for.

 

I grew up in a highly mannerly family.

 

 

This begs the question then, on a broader level, outside of my own neighbor issue - can people have respect for legitimate (key word here) authority while not showing deference? Perhaps we can as adults, but not as children? Or are the two intimately woven?

[Tangerine]

The other kind of "respect for authority" is about kids having a specific demeanour and pattern of speaking that meets your expectations because it has verbal markers of deference. This is not quite as reasonable. Many children respect adult authority (they follow instructions), but it is increasingly uncommon for that functional respect to be accompanied by the verbal pattern of: "No questioning, no visible feelings (like resentment), no sarcasm, no advocating for what you want."

 

I think you need to overlook a child speaking her mind (because many parents prefer that, and it's a parenting call) as long as she *functionally* respects your instructions, rules and boundaries.

 

You don't need to teach her "better" manners -- you just need to make sure she is under control on your property.

Wow. That was almost some magic you did there.

[nixpix5]

Since you've trained a few kids to be obedient, you're familiar with the drill. Firm boundaries.

 

The loft door- "I'm sorry, Kay, you need to go home now. Next time I need you to obey me. You can try again another day."

Anytime she disobeys you, send her home.

 

The go-cart (if she asks again)- "Kay, what were you told last time? Next time you ask me I am going to send you home to remember."

Anytime she pushes a boundary that you have already set, send her home.

 

The popsicle- eh, I'd get over this one. Kids like food. But if she's super snacky, I would send her home to eat. "You seem hungry, Kay. It's time for you to go home and eat a meal. You can come back in 1 hour"

Invest in popcorn and other cheap snacks. I like feeding the neighborhood (especially if it's just 1 neighbor), so this doesn't seem like a huge deal to me.

 

I know kids like this. They're clever, they push boundaries (especially if this works in other areas of their life), but they also tend to fall into line. I've trained more than a few neighbor kids and I think it's worth it. Summer playmates are fun.

 

My tips-

 

*Consistently send her home for disobedience

*Consistently send her home for breaking established rules

*Send her home when you're annoyed with her or just need a break. This is more sustainable than fostering a growing dislike for a kid.

*Send her home with a come back time- "You can come back in an hour, at x time, tomorrow, etc."

 

Good luck!

This is exactly how to do it.

 

My niece stays with us in the summer and she comes with a host of struggles. I love her and she is a sweetheart but is raised by my brother who is a hands off single dad. She runs the show. She now knows how to adjust when she is here (and actually loves the boundaries now!) but I remember having to put her in the car and drive her 3 hours home one summer because she wouldn't listen. I did the "you couldn't follow our family rules so now you are going home and we will try again later in the summer". It was a pain to hold the line but you should have seen the shocked look on her face. It worked beautifully.

[Seasider]

Send little Kay home when she won't follow your house rules. Be sweet and tell her she's welcome back when she can mind herself.

Buy inexpensive snacks.

Nicely but firmly say this is my home, these are the rules of my home. They are not negotiable. Follow them and you are welcome, don't follow them and you will be asked to leave, the choice is yours.

 

Then you must be observant and send her straight home the very first time she breaks a rule or tries to argue with her. Seriously, escort her off your property. Be prepared for her to test you on this.

 

As for your relationship with the neighbors- the certainly know how she is. With a smile you should be able to tell them, I have rules I don't allow my own kids to break, so it would be quite unfair to let the rules go unenforced for Kay.

 

She's probably never run into anyone with the strength of character to tell her no. I personally think you will be doing her a favor by showing her that pushiness won't always be rewarded. You certainly will have the respect of your own kids if you are consistent in your expectations.

 

And it is okay to say no.

 

No, we have some guests visiting, the yard isn't open for free play tonight.

 

No, I don't have a popsicle for you.

 

No, I don't have to give you a reason why you can't do something here.

[TXBeth]

I agree with everyone else on sending her home when she doesn't obey. She will learn quickly.

However, I have to say I don't see any disrespect in offering a spare swimsuit. Now if she offered, Mrs Deb said "thank you, but Joy won't be able to do water play today," and Kay kept arguing about it or pressing for another reason, I could see it being annoying. But to offer a solution to a stated problem? (Joy can not play because she left her suit at home) How is that disrespectful?

Disclaimer: I would have let my kid borrow the swimsuit. I see no problem with changing your mind based on new information and finding a way to make it work. But even if I wouldnt allow it, I still wouldn't be offended by the generous offer.

[Bambam]

We had a neighbor girl much like her. No respect for authority. So, every time the girl chose not to obey me, I sent her home. Her mom knew how we parent (very different from how they parent), and never asked any questions.  It was tough some times, but I didn't care. I wasn't going to let little sweetie teach my kids disrespect, lack-of-respect, etc. These are the house rules, you can't play by the house rules, you have to go home. Period. No discussion. 

 

She learned our house rules and started following them when over. Again Mom never asked me any questions, but if she had, I would have explained it to her. Once you decide, lack of obedience = you must go home, it makes your life so much less stressful because the decision when to act/if to act has already been made.

[bolt.]

I did see kindness, generosity and collaborative problem solving in Kay's offer to share a swimsuit.

 

I think you might be a little sub-cultured (not a bad thing!) and so you recognize subtext -- that the mom was stating a consequence that should be abided by, not discribing a problem that could be easily solved by a caring friend -- but Kay couldn't be expected to recognize it?

 

I pretty sure I would have offered Deb's daughter a spare swimsuit too! It just seems perfectly normal. I might have even reprimanded a daughter of mine who didn't immediately offer to share a swimsuit (or other missing object that was preventing a peer from jointing in the fun).

 

Is it possible that you are perpetually 'already irritated' by Kay, so this sort of small (and kindly meant!) misunderstanding strikes you as disrespectful?

 

In any case, Kay seems well meaning. A few boundaries should set her straight on your house rules -- but I don't think a few weeks of summer would be enough for her to pick up the deferential norms that are common in your subculture -- even if you actively taught her. (And you shouldn't be actively teaching her.)

 

I'm trying to empathize with how irritating that must be for you, because you have made different choices, but since my kids and I have "Kay conversations" all the time -- and I value those interchanges greatly -- I am just hoping you can cut her some slack as a cultural foreigner. It's hard for me to see that part of her as part of her badness.

 

Have you ever volunteerd at a VBS or anything? Where you expect "unchurched kids" and try to help them participate in spite of any bad habits they might have... where you are kind of expecting the bad habits, but you are determined to be welcoming anyways? Maybe try to draw on that mindset?

 

Try to see, "Why?" -- as curious, and inform her about the logic of your structures.

Try to see, "Can I...?" -- as a request that welcomes either a yes or a no, and say no.

 

Be prepared to actually articulate, "I don't want to answer your questions any more. I already told you as much as I'm going to tell you."/ "That isn't going to happen. You need to stop talking about it." -- because she can't read your eyebrow-based warning messages the way cultural insiders can. You will both be happier if you just say what you mean.

Edited June 16, 2017 by bolt.

[Tanaqui]

That hits on another episode from yesterday. My friend, Deb (not real name) gave her eldest daughter, Joy, an opportunity to bring her swimsuit along to our home in case we used the sprinkler. Her daughter decided not to bring it. This mom is working on a concept with this child of making a decision and sticking to it.

 

When Joy heard that Kay had a slip 'n slide, she wanted to play too, and Deb told her she didn't have a suit and that was the decision she had made and had to live with it. I was a bit surprised at the strictness, but I know the parents and child and can see why this learning lesson needed to occur. I, of course, kept out of it.

 

Kay piped up and just said, "Oh, I have an extra suit she can use. So that's fine. Can't she do that?" Deb stood there in a awkward spot; she clearly parented her own daughter, but here was neighbor contradicting her. I stepped in and told the kids to all go to the basement to play while Mrs. Deb and I discussed it and that gave Deb some time to separate Joy and explain the issues and work out a solution.

 

To me, this sounds like this child Kay was being compassionate and polite, not to mention a quick thinker. She saw a problem, she stepped in to solve it. If this had happened in my house, I would've been proud of my own kids for offering to share. Isn't that what we want children to do? To care for their friends, and to share their things?

 

I just think you're putting a lot of negative opinions on an act of charity.

 

Kay was dangling both legs out and I told her, "Kay, please put your legs back, we don't hang out of the loft door here. And the little kids are watching you." She looks at me and does it anyways.

 

I always find that rules work better with an explanation - and a follow-up, if necessary. I would've said it like this: "Kay, please put your legs back. It's not safe for the little ones, so we don't allow anybody to do it" followed by "Kay, I've already told you once to keep your legs inside. If you don't fix it now and keep them in, you'll have to go home, and I won't be able to let you play in there again for a while. If you can't follow the rule, then it's just not safe." And then stuck with it.

 

Or, we have a gas powered go-kart and only DS who is 7 is permitted to drive it and only on our property and only when DH is home and outside. One weekend, the go-kart needed some work, DH was fixing it and Kay asked him when she could drive it. He explained, yet again (for the millionth time), that only DS was permitted to drive it, but she could ride with him. She pushed. "Why?" He responded. After this, DH pulled DS over and said, "When I leave you here to play, Kay is going to push you to drive this kart. You say 'no' and blame it on me." Sure enough, DH leaves, Kay pressures DS. Thankfully, DS stood his ground.

 

 

For this, rather than putting the onus on your young child to enforce the rules, I would've said it was better to either put the go-kart away, or to remove the children from the situation so it wouldn't be an issue. Yes, Kay should've followed that stated rule, but I prefer not to gratuitously tempt children with poor impulse control - and clearly, this sort of rule-following is still difficult for her.

 

Today, she told my kids she was leaving for soccer practice. My kids came to the deck door asking for popsicles without Kay as they thought Kay had left. I happily obliged. Then, five minutes later, Kay comes over and wants one. I say, "Do you have practice tonight?" "Oh, yes, I do but it's not for a long while. Can I have a popsicle?" So I give her one and immediately she disappears and goes home to grandparents' house to leave for practice...and I feel like I am feeding the "neighborhood."

 

LOL. Been there, done that. I don't mind feeding all the neighborhood kids so long as my own kids are there and it doesn't cost too much, but I agree, it's a bit much for her to ask for a popsicle when she isn't playing with them! But she may have just thought you're a nice person :) At least popsicles are inexpensive. I babysit two kids for an hour after school, and I feed them a snack. The older kid has been asking me for pomegranates. I keep thinking "Kid, your mom does not pay me enough for me to get you that!" I doubt he understands the comparative cost, but really, he's going to have to be happy with his rotation of tangerines/oranges, apples, pears, bananas, and grapes. (And sometimes raisins or baby carrots.)

[Catwoman]

Yeah, I am not trying to "teach" her manners - not my job and I do not want to. I think you hit on a really good point, though, by stating the "specific demeanor" with "verbal markers of deference" concepts. In fact, aside from her blatant disregard for rules and on-going snacking at our house, I feel you hit on EXACTLY what my issue is. It is the deference.

 

In our home school community, we see, and I guess inadvertently teach, respect for authority and that means parents whether they are the kids' own parents or not. Our respect for authority does include deference and demeanor - when an adult gives a reasonable and safe direction, it is to be followed, no questions asked and no asserting the child's own authority, or opinion, into the situation.

 

That hits on another episode from yesterday. My friend, Deb (not real name) gave her eldest daughter, Joy, an opportunity to bring her swimsuit along to our home in case we used the sprinkler. Her daughter decided not to bring it. This mom is working on a concept with this child of making a decision and sticking to it.

 

When Joy heard that Kay had a slip 'n slide, she wanted to play too, and Deb told her she didn't have a suit and that was the decision she had made and had to live with it. I was a bit surprised at the strictness, but I know the parents and child and can see why this learning lesson needed to occur. I, of course, kept out of it.

 

Kay piped up and just said, "Oh, I have an extra suit she can use. So that's fine. Can't she do that?" Deb stood there in a awkward spot; she clearly parented her own daughter, but here was neighbor contradicting her. I stepped in and told the kids to all go to the basement to play while Mrs. Deb and I discussed it and that gave Deb some time to separate Joy and explain the issues and work out a solution.

 

Pretty much every child I know would stay out of a parent/child discussion. So, yes, a lack of deference bothers me.

 

 

I just do not consider kids on the same level as adults, which is why I think the deference issue bugs me. I love them. I respect them as humans, as people, and as individuals, but there has to be a pecking order, so to speak. Not everybody gets to be in charge or to have a say. I think we (as a society in general) are not doing our kids any favors when we teach them to always speak their mind and make their wants known.

 

We need to teach children/minors discernment to know when to speak up - what is a TRUE reason to speak up? I think a true reason to speak up is when something that is objective is wrong, immoral, unsafe, and/or illegal. If they have a preference, and the person with whom they are interacting is not their parent or guardian, I think it is proper for the child to remain quiet until and if their opinion is asked for.

 

I grew up in a highly mannerly family.

 

 

This begs the question then, on a broader level, outside of my own neighbor issue - can people have respect for legitimate (key word here) authority while not showing deference? Perhaps we can as adults, but not as children? Or are the two intimately woven?

Personally, I am impressed that Kay was kind enough to offer to go home and get her extra swimsuit so the other girl could play with all of the other kids. I think that was very sweet and generous of her.

 

I agree with everyone else that she has to follow your rules when she's at your house, but I don't agree that she shouldn't be allowed to make a helpful suggestion. She wasn't arguing or being disrespectful; she was genuinely trying to be helpful.

[SKL]

Yeah, the swimsuit issue is not one I can quite relate to.  I mean, I understand that the mom was trying to teach her daughter something.  But a little girl generously offered a kindness from her heart.  (a) I don't see how that can be viewed as impertinence, especially since the 8yo would not have understood what the mom was trying to teach; and (b) I feel we have a duty to accept kindness, especially a child's kindness, unless there is a very good reason not to.  In that situation I would have tabled the "lesson" for my daughter for another time, and later just reminded my daughter that she isn't going to be rescued like that every time.  :)  Which, she will figure out sooner or later regardless.

[SKL]

As for demanding to know "why" the rule is xyz, that is annoying, but she doesn't know that.

 

I think what's annoying is that "why" often seems to mean "you have to convince me before I agree to do what you say."  Well that's not appropriate for a child to say to an adult.  So maybe break down your answer to "why."  "Whatever my reason may be, this is my rule and you need to follow it if you're going to play here.  Are you going to follow the rule?"  Hopefully the answer is "yes."  That perhaps clears the air and you can decide whether to give a rationale or not.  Giving a rationale may (or may not) reduce the number of "why" questions asked in the future.  :)

[MommyLiberty5013]

I need to clarify. I love generousity. I liked that offer from Kay for Joy to borrow a suit - genius and I was proud of Kay for suggesting it! I was about to take her up on that offer on Joy's behalf​, starting to say, "Oh, that's great!" when Deb stepped in and said, "No" and reminded Joy of Joy's decision to not bring a suit. Deb and I both thanked Kay for offer.

 

Deb and her DH have their own struggles with Joy, which I will not delve into. But Deb has to be firm with her on some things. To outsiders trying to explain this on the internet it may seem harsh to stomp on Kay's problem solving skills, but Deb's goal is not Kay's offer, it is Joy's up-bringing and I do not even quite understand the dynamics there and why Joy could not borrow a swim suit, but Deb and her DH have their things with their own kiddos. Hopefully, we all agree on that or at least, can understand.

 

Where the issue arises is what occurred after Deb said, "No." Kay pushed her and me at least three times. Joy was caught in the middle, all the kids were there watching/listening and Kay had the adults on the spot. I had the kids go to the basement to play while Deb and Joy re-grouped.

 

It is so tough to convey all the nuances of an interpersonal interaction on the internet without it veering off track into something else - because now I seem like a mean, old, anti-bathing suit ogre who hates kids using critical thinking skills and problem solving to help others. Ack. And I never know how much detail to give when typing a story because I do not want things to be too long.

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by MommyLiberty5013

[Tanaqui]

I can see how it might sound like that, SKL, but I'm pretty sure bolt and others will back me up when I say that if the kid doesn't make a good argument for why your rule is silly (which, I mean, it does happen, but rarely) we do end up saying "Listen, I've heard your argument, but we're now done discussing it. The rule stands." (Or however we phrase it in our own homes.)

[Tanaqui]

LOL! Okay, if she argued about it three times I can see how it was annoying - and yes, now it all makes more sense, because it did seem a bit of an overreaction from the way you first said it. However, I can also see her perspective - to her, Joy's mother was making no sense! I think in this case, after argument two, I would've taken her aside and said "Listen, Mrs. So-and-so is not going to change her mind. You're just making Joy upset, and you're also being disrespectful*. I know you want to be helpful, but it's time to drop the argument. If you can't, you'll have to go home."

 

* I'm not entirely sure I would use the word disrespectful, but I'm pretty sure you would.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Tanaqui

[wendyroo]

I have a kiddo like that, and sometimes I find it most productive to just preemptively tack on "and we're not going to discuss it any more" to the end of my statements to him.

 

So, when Kay offered the swimsuit, and I realized that for reasons she would not understand, I needed to nip that conversation in the bud, I would have said something like, "Kay, that is a very generous offer, but unfortunately it isn't going to work for today, and we are not going to discuss it any more."  Then I quickly distract by moving on to a different topic: "Now, you kids head down and play in the basement while Miss Deb and I talk about grown up stuff."

 

Wendy

[Amy in NH]

I'd send her right home the first time she disobeyed. Every time. Until she gets it.

[Heather R]

I actually had to explain to a young guest once that "at my house, we have a rule that kids listen to instructions from adults, unless they are dangerous". Explicitly stating it like that seemed to help him "obey" my other household rules... he still pushes the boundaries a bit but has more or less become a pleasant guest. :)

[Supertechmom]

Yeah, I am not trying to "teach" her manners - not my job and I do not want to. I think you hit on a really good point, though, by stating the "specific demeanor" with "verbal markers of deference" concepts. In fact, aside from her blatant disregard for rules and on-going snacking at our house, I feel you hit on EXACTLY what my issue is. It is the deference.

 

In our home school community, we see, and I guess inadvertently teach, respect for authority and that means parents whether they are the kids' own parents or not. Our respect for authority does include deference and demeanor - when an adult gives a reasonable and safe direction, it is to be followed, no questions asked and no asserting the child's own authority, or opinion, into the situation.

 

That hits on another episode from yesterday. My friend, Deb (not real name) gave her eldest daughter, Joy, an opportunity to bring her swimsuit along to our home in case we used the sprinkler. Her daughter decided not to bring it. This mom is working on a concept with this child of making a decision and sticking to it.

 

When Joy heard that Kay had a slip 'n slide, she wanted to play too, and Deb told her she didn't have a suit and that was the decision she had made and had to live with it. I was a bit surprised at the strictness, but I know the parents and child and can see why this learning lesson needed to occur. I, of course, kept out of it.

 

Kay piped up and just said, "Oh, I have an extra suit she can use. So that's fine. Can't she do that?" Deb stood there in a awkward spot; she clearly parented her own daughter, but here was neighbor contradicting her. I stepped in and told the kids to all go to the basement to play while Mrs. Deb and I discussed it and that gave Deb some time to separate Joy and explain the issues and work out a solution.

 

Pretty much every child I know would stay out of a parent/child discussion. So, yes, a lack of deference bothers me.

 

 

I just do not consider kids on the same level as adults, which is why I think the deference issue bugs me. I love them. I respect them as humans, as people, and as individuals, but there has to be a pecking order, so to speak. Not everybody gets to be in charge or to have a say. I think we (as a society in general) are not doing our kids any favors when we teach them to always speak their mind and make their wants known.

 

We need to teach children/minors discernment to know when to speak up - what is a TRUE reason to speak up? I think a true reason to speak up is when something that is objective is wrong, immoral, unsafe, and/or illegal. If they have a preference, and the person with whom they are interacting is not their parent or guardian, I think it is proper for the child to remain quiet until and if their opinion is asked for.

 

I grew up in a highly mannerly family.

 

 

This begs the question then, on a broader level, outside of my own neighbor issue - can people have respect for legitimate (key word here) authority while not showing deference? Perhaps we can as adults, but not as children? Or are the two intimately woven?

 

 

I think everyone' suggestions to send her home when she directly disobeys is spot on.  However for the rest of it........She does not sound like a child being raised to do as told because an adult said so and adults must be obeyed because that's the order of it.   And you do not sound like an adult who will tolerate children who speak their mind and seek to understand the whys behind the rules.   So a culture clash is occurring.

 

As for your question.....

 

.one can obey authority without an ounce of respect and show deference ( as I did to my mother who believed in my way or the highway and thought she ran a tight ship)

 

one can obey authority with respect but not deference ( person who says Yes mam and no mam -yea respect!- but the tone is awful and definitely not respectful but they demonstrated that respect)

 

One can obey with respect and deference

 

Yes, children can show both.  However, the key word is legitimate authority..... Who defines that?  I know quite a few kids who would never associate adult equals authority. i know many parents who do not teach their children blind obedience to adults.   After all, in adulthood, one picks and chooses who to obey  and which commands to obey. So I think the problem is how one views who gets to be a legitimate authority. 

[Epicurean]

I just wanted to say that I think you're doing a great job raising your kids, MommyLiberty5013.

[Ausmumof3]

Yeah, I am not trying to "teach" her manners - not my job and I do not want to. I think you hit on a really good point, though, by stating the "specific demeanor" with "verbal markers of deference" concepts. In fact, aside from her blatant disregard for rules and on-going snacking at our house, I feel you hit on EXACTLY what my issue is. It is the deference.

 

In our home school community, we see, and I guess inadvertently teach, respect for authority and that means parents whether they are the kids' own parents or not. Our respect for authority does include deference and demeanor - when an adult gives a reasonable and safe direction, it is to be followed, no questions asked and no asserting the child's own authority, or opinion, into the situation.

 

That hits on another episode from yesterday. My friend, Deb (not real name) gave her eldest daughter, Joy, an opportunity to bring her swimsuit along to our home in case we used the sprinkler. Her daughter decided not to bring it. This mom is working on a concept with this child of making a decision and sticking to it.

 

When Joy heard that Kay had a slip 'n slide, she wanted to play too, and Deb told her she didn't have a suit and that was the decision she had made and had to live with it. I was a bit surprised at the strictness, but I know the parents and child and can see why this learning lesson needed to occur. I, of course, kept out of it.

 

Kay piped up and just said, "Oh, I have an extra suit she can use. So that's fine. Can't she do that?" Deb stood there in a awkward spot; she clearly parented her own daughter, but here was neighbor contradicting her. I stepped in and told the kids to all go to the basement to play while Mrs. Deb and I discussed it and that gave Deb some time to separate Joy and explain the issues and work out a solution.

 

Pretty much every child I know would stay out of a parent/child discussion. So, yes, a lack of deference bothers me.

 

 

I just do not consider kids on the same level as adults, which is why I think the deference issue bugs me. I love them. I respect them as humans, as people, and as individuals, but there has to be a pecking order, so to speak. Not everybody gets to be in charge or to have a say. I think we (as a society in general) are not doing our kids any favors when we teach them to always speak their mind and make their wants known.

 

We need to teach children/minors discernment to know when to speak up - what is a TRUE reason to speak up? I think a true reason to speak up is when something that is objective is wrong, immoral, unsafe, and/or illegal. If they have a preference, and the person with whom they are interacting is not their parent or guardian, I think it is proper for the child to remain quiet until and if their opinion is asked for.

 

I grew up in a highly mannerly family.

 

 

This begs the question then, on a broader level, outside of my own neighbor issue - can people have respect for legitimate (key word here) authority while not showing deference? Perhaps we can as adults, but not as children? Or are the two intimately woven?

Offering the swimsuit just sounds generous to me although inconvenient for the parent who was trying to make some kind of lesson out of it.

[Bluegoat]

Yeah, I am not trying to "teach" her manners - not my job and I do not want to. I think you hit on a really good point, though, by stating the "specific demeanor" with "verbal markers of deference" concepts. In fact, aside from her blatant disregard for rules and on-going snacking at our house, I feel you hit on EXACTLY what my issue is. It is the deference.

 

In our home school community, we see, and I guess inadvertently teach, respect for authority and that means parents whether they are the kids' own parents or not. Our respect for authority does include deference and demeanor - when an adult gives a reasonable and safe direction, it is to be followed, no questions asked and no asserting the child's own authority, or opinion, into the situation.

 

That hits on another episode from yesterday. My friend, Deb (not real name) gave her eldest daughter, Joy, an opportunity to bring her swimsuit along to our home in case we used the sprinkler. Her daughter decided not to bring it. This mom is working on a concept with this child of making a decision and sticking to it.

 

When Joy heard that Kay had a slip 'n slide, she wanted to play too, and Deb told her she didn't have a suit and that was the decision she had made and had to live with it. I was a bit surprised at the strictness, but I know the parents and child and can see why this learning lesson needed to occur. I, of course, kept out of it.

 

Kay piped up and just said, "Oh, I have an extra suit she can use. So that's fine. Can't she do that?" Deb stood there in a awkward spot; she clearly parented her own daughter, but here was neighbor contradicting her. I stepped in and told the kids to all go to the basement to play while Mrs. Deb and I discussed it and that gave Deb some time to separate Joy and explain the issues and work out a solution.

 

Pretty much every child I know would stay out of a parent/child discussion. So, yes, a lack of deference bothers me.

 

 

I just do not consider kids on the same level as adults, which is why I think the deference issue bugs me. I love them. I respect them as humans, as people, and as individuals, but there has to be a pecking order, so to speak. Not everybody gets to be in charge or to have a say. I think we (as a society in general) are not doing our kids any favors when we teach them to always speak their mind and make their wants known.

 

We need to teach children/minors discernment to know when to speak up - what is a TRUE reason to speak up? I think a true reason to speak up is when something that is objective is wrong, immoral, unsafe, and/or illegal. If they have a preference, and the person with whom they are interacting is not their parent or guardian, I think it is proper for the child to remain quiet until and if their opinion is asked for.

 

I grew up in a highly mannerly family.

 

 

This begs the question then, on a broader level, outside of my own neighbor issue - can people have respect for legitimate (key word here) authority while not showing deference? Perhaps we can as adults, but not as children? Or are the two intimately woven?

 

 

I would not consider a lot of things you are talking about as not showing deference.  Offering the swimsuit might have been awkward for the adults, but, really, that is their issue.  The girl was being kind and neighborly.  And it seems an easy one to deal with - you say to the first girl "ah, you will be able to play anyway, because Kay is kind enough to lend a suit.  Maybe next time you will make a different decision."  Its not like there is only one chance for this child to learn that lesson.

 

As for asking the why of things - as long as it isn't snarky, I consider that a good thing - its how kids learn to integrate the rules and create their own boundaries.

 

I like children that share their thoughts with me, and I like sharing mine in return.  That doesn't mean they make the final decision.  I find the idea that they can't or shouldn't a little horrible, actually.

 

ETA:

I also can see why the swimsuit thing might be annoying if she pressed, but really, this is easy to clear up - you take her aside and tell her Joy's parents have a good reason but it is private, and that she needs to leave decisions like this to parents. 

 

I might also be inclined to consider that the parents made a bad call on that decision and kind of invited the problem.

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Bluegoat

[Bluegoat]

I don't get the issue with the car - disn't the dad say she could drive with the son?  So wouldn't it be logical for her to ask him?

[MommyLiberty5013]

Offering the swimsuit just sounds generous to me although inconvenient for the parent who was trying to make some kind of lesson out of it.

 

In my PP I addressed the swimsuit again and clarified that I loved Kay's offer. In fact I was about to accept, but Deb said no.

 

It might be helpful to reread the thread as the generousity of Kay and her problem solving skills aren't in question. I made that clear in a post near the end of the discussion. I know this conversation is long now.

[MommyLiberty5013]

I don't get the issue with the car - disn't the dad say she could drive with the son? So wouldn't it be logical for her to ask him?

[MommyLiberty5013]

 

I don't get the issue with the car - disn't the dad say she could drive with the son? So wouldn't it be logical for her to ask him?

It's not a car. It's a go-kart. It's gas powered. DS is trained in driving it. Our rules are kids including our own and other kids can ride as a passenger while DS drives. No one else is permitted to drive it. It is only used when DH is home as it is gas powered and has a pull start and other things, quite frankly, I don't wish to manage. It's DH's thing. The driving rules are important for safety.

[Bluegoat]

It's not a car. It's a go-kart. It's gas powered. DS is trained in driving it. Our rules are kids including our own and other kids can ride as a passenger while DS drives. No one else is permitted to drive it. It is only used when DH is home as it is gas powered and has a pull start and other things, quite frankly, I don't wish to manage. It's DH's thing. The driving rules are important for safety.

 

Yes, so, it makes sense she would ask your son to be a passenger, right?  Did she know that also your husband had to be there to manage the vehicle?

 

A lot of your examples seem to do with this girl not being able to figure out all the "rules" because she isn't really being given enough information.  Which stinks if you are the person trying to make sense of a bunch of rules that seem random and unpredictable.

[maize]

One thought:

 

Your posts are coming across to me as assuming this child's behavior is due to different parenting/teaching. I would challenge that--some kids are born naturally assertive and non compliant. She may have been taught every bit as much deference as your own kids and she marches to the beat of her own drummer anyway.

 

Just sayin. I'm rather fond of such kids.

 

Doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't set and maintain boundaries at your own home. You can and should.

[maize]

Yes, so, it makes sense she would ask your son to be a passenger, right? Did she know that also your husband had to be there to manage the vehicle?

 

A lot of your examples seem to do with this girl not being able to figure out all the "rules" because she isn't really being given enough information. Which stinks if you are the person trying to make sense of a bunch of rules that seem random and unpredictable.

I read that story as the girl asking if she could drive the go-kart, after being explicitly told that only the son could drive it.

[bolt.]

All the extra details are really helping me form a picture of the heart of this irritation -- the common thread seems to be a theme of repetition.

 

The child repeats herself, and you experience that as "pushing" or "arguing".

 

The child makes you repeat instructions (by ignoring them, trying to turn them into conversations, or asking for ressionsing), and you experience that as a challenge to your authority to give instructions and have them follows.

 

This is FANTASTIC news! It means that (in a manner of speaking) you and Kay only have *one* problem -- and *that* makes this solvable within a few days. It totally reverses my position that you probably would have to endure the behaviour all summer. There will be some less irritating parts of her attitude to endure, but I think we can solve all of the parts of the issue that touch the common thread.

 

This is the 'broken record' technique. Every time you can, use these two catch phrases.

 

- "Kay, you are repeating yourself. Please stop it and (go play)."

 

- "I'm not going to repeat myself. You need to follow instructions if you want to stay and play."

 

If you literally 'sound like a broken record' it's a shortcut for Kay to be able to predict your response, which will add a lot of focus to her attempts to 'not get in trouble' -- it focuses her not on the motivation of her actions (respecting you more) but on the concrete realities of her actions (not saying things twice, not considering an instruction to be a 'warning').

 

It's also important as you introduce this system that you *not* give 'throw away' instructions (that you don't mind if they are not followed) to anyone while Kay can hear/see. It messes with the simplicity and uniform application of the 'following instructions without repetition' system.

 

(Your kids may know that, "Bring me a hairbrush so I can braid your hair." -- does not have the same weight as, "Stop playing with the propane tank." That's because you raised them and you make implicit sense to them. For Kay, she won't be able to distinguish 'light management instructions' from 'do what you are told instructions' so watch your grammar for three or four days, just to help her out.)

[MommyLiberty5013]

I read that story as the girl asking if she could drive the go-kart, after being explicitly told that only the son could drive it.

This. No other child can drive. Any child can be a passenger AKA "riding with." Hopefully, people read this...Kay pushes to drive. She is welcome to ride with.

[MommyLiberty5013]

All the extra details are really helping me form a picture of the heart of this irritation -- the common thread seems to be a theme of repetition.

 

The child repeats herself, and you experience that as "pushing" or "arguing".

 

The child makes you repeat instructions (by ignoring them, trying to turn them into conversations, or asking for ressionsing), and you experience that as a challenge to your authority to give instructions and have them follows.

 

This is FANTASTIC news! It means that (in a manner of speaking) you and Kay only have *one* problem -- and *that* makes this solvable within a few days. It totally reverses my position that you probably would have to endure the behaviour all summer. There will be some less irritating parts of her attitude to endure, but I think we can solve all of the parts of the issue that touch the common thread.

 

This is the 'broken record' technique. Every time you can, use these two catch phrases.

 

- "Kay, you are repeating yourself. Please stop it and (go play)."

 

- "I'm not going to repeat myself. You need to follow instructions if you want to stay and play."

 

If you literally 'sound like a broken record' it's a shortcut for Kay to be able to predict your response, which will add a lot of focus to her attempts to 'not get in trouble' -- it focuses her not on the motivation of her actions (respecting you more) but on the concrete realities of her actions (not saying things twice, not considering an instruction to be a 'warning').

 

It's also important as you introduce this system that you *not* give 'throw away' instructions (that you don't mind if they are not followed) to anyone while Kay can hear/see. It messes with the simplicity and uniform application of the 'following instructions without repetition' system.

 

(Your kids may know that, "Bring me a hairbrush so I can braid your hair." -- does not have the same weight as, "Stop playing with the propane tank." That's because you raised them and you make implicit sense to them. For Kay, she won't be able to distinguish 'light management instructions' from 'do what you are told instructions' so watch your grammar for three or four days, just to help her out.)

Bolt, Thank you for your two longer posts. I think you hit on some good stuff in both of them.

 

In the first, I appreciated your questions, "why" etc.. and those explanations. To set the record straight, though, the VBS and "cultural foreigner" points, were reaches/assumptions/reading incorrectly between the lines. No harm done though.

 

In this post here, I like the "Broken Record Technique." I think what I am finding is that with four LOs under 7, older kid behaviors are still new to me as it isn't a bridge we have crossed yet in our parenting journey and both DH and I were highly compliant kiddos (at least as kids, not when I was a teen LOL).

 

I touched base with DS-7 this morning over breakfast. In a curious chit-chat manner, I asked him how Kay felt about our home, family, and playing here. "Oh, Mom, she loves it here and has said she likes us so much." Well, that made me feel better as it isn't my goal to be a "mean old lady." Ha! We will work on the boundaries.

 

So thanks to all for posting!