OnMyOwn Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Did he happen to read the recent NY Times article about the loss of retail jobs? Or maybe an article a couple of years ago in the Atlantic about a world without work? It's really interesting to speculate on. Our economy is based on the premise that human labor has value. That value can be exchanged for goods and services. What happens when human labor has no value? Robots can produce everything but humans have nothing to provide in exchange. People still need food and shelter, so how do we distribute those things now? Some have suggested we may be in need of a Universal Basic Income which we collect while filling those few remaining jobs that robots can't do or pursuing hobbies. Canada and Finland among others are trying this. Maybe there are other solutions? (Sorry to get on the crazy train for a while there.) It is interesting to speculate on. But how depressing to just be given a stipend to scrape by on with no hope for a better future versus having the option of contributing and making a difference in the world. Not to mention being empowered to improve your own situation through education and hard work. It may come to a point that we will need to shift to a Universal Basic Income, but I really don't see that basically putting everyone on welfare is going to lead to a happy society. I don't think you're getting crazy. It's exactly what they are predicting and I just hope it will take a very long time to get to that point. I look at my kids and the education we've been able to give them and all that they can do with that now (even though they will be entering a far tougher economy than I faced when I graduated from high school) and I wonder if it will be worth anything at all in 30 years. But, I try not to think of all that too much because it is just so incredibly depressing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daijobu Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 (edited) It is interesting to speculate on. But how depressing to just be given a stipend to scrape by on with no hope for a better future versus having the option of contributing and making a difference in the world. Not to mention being empowered to improve your own situation through education and hard work. It may come to a point that we will need to shift to a Universal Basic Income, but I really don't see that basically putting everyone on welfare is going to lead to a happy society. I don't think you're getting crazy. It's exactly what they are predicting and I just hope it will take a very long time to get to that point. I look at my kids and the education we've been able to give them and all that they can do with that now (even though they will be entering a far tougher economy than I faced when I graduated from high school) and I wonder if it will be worth anything at all in 30 years. But, I try not to think of all that too much because it is just so incredibly depressing. Well, this is all speculative and not really grounded in reality, but I think receiving UBI does not preclude you from also earning additional money in some entrepreneurial way, like being an artist or creating new products to sell. But because not all of us are wired to be artists or entrepreneurs, a UBI without a means test (so slightly different from welfare...everyone gets a UBI no matter how much money you make) gives everyone the freedom from living in abject poverty. Frankly, it's much like my life now. I'm a SAHM, who makes a little extra money tutoring. Courtesy of my husband, I have a type of UBI which enables me to pursue hobbies, does not preclude me from earning more money (because my husband does not give me a means test to disqualify me), and allows me to homeschool my kids, and I'm free to read and learn more. I don't feel any lack of hope, and I'm generally pretty happy that I get all this money for free basically. Edited June 29, 2017 by daijobu 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnMyOwn Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 Well, this is all speculative and not really grounded in reality, but I think receiving UBI does not preclude you from also earning additional money in some entrepreneurial way, like being an artist or creating new products to sell. But because not all of us are wired to be artists or entrepreneurs, a UBI without a means test (so slightly different from welfare...everyone gets a UBI no matter how much money you make) gives everyone the freedom from living in abject poverty. Frankly, it's much like my life now. I'm a SAHM, who makes a little extra money tutoring. Courtesy of my husband, I have a type of UBI which enables me to pursue hobbies, does not preclude me from earning more money (because my husband does not give me a means test to disqualify me), and allows me to homeschool my kids, and I'm free to read and learn more. I don't feel any lack of hope, and I'm generally pretty happy that I get all this money for free basically. I hope it all works out that way, but I can see an awful lot of people no longer feeling like they have a purpose, UBI or no UBI. I do wonder how much opportunity there will be to earn additional income if everyone needs a UBI? I obviously don't have the answers, but the idea of so many jobs being replaced by computers -- everything from cashiers to anesthesiologists -- is quite chilling to me. I can't remember the details and I'm terrible at retelling things, but I heard an anecdote about there being a lot of speculation at one point that NYC was going to be a disaster because so many horses would be in use for transportation as the city grew, the entire city would be buried in manure. No one could see a solution at the time. That story made me feel better because it makes me think some unknown solution will come along. I hope so. 🙂 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutingmom Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 I just glanced at Wikipedia: Pilot programs As of 2017, the only well established and ongoing cash transfer programs akin to a basic income are the Permanent Fund of Alaska in the United States and Bolsa FamÃlia in Brazil. Additionally, several other countries have tested, implemented, or begun planning the following basic income experiments: Experiments with negative income tax in United States and Canada in the 1960s and 1970s. A town in Manitoba, Canada experimented with a basic guaranteed income in the 1970s[31] The Basic Income Grant (BIG) in Namibia, launched in 2008[32] An independent pilot implemented in Sao Paulo, Brazil[33] Several villages in India participated in basic income trial,[34] while the government has proposed a guaranteed basic income for all citizens.[35] The GiveDirectly experiment in Nairobi, Kenya, which is the biggest and longest basic income pilot as of 2017.[36] A study undertaken in rural North Carolina in the U.S.[37] The city of Utrecht in the Netherlands launched an experiment in early 2017 that is testing different rates of aid.[38] Ontario, Canada will implement a basic income trial in summer 2017.[39] The Finnish government implemented a two-year pilot in January 2017 involving 2,000 subjects.[40] Eight, a nonprofit organisation, launched a project in a village in Fort Portal, Uganda in January 2017, providing income for 56 adults and 88 children through mobile money.[41] Oh, ok, I thought you meant more recently than the 70's.... although if Ontario is going to try soon that is interesting... Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 (edited) It's really interesting to speculate on. Our economy is based on the premise that human labor has value. That value can be exchanged for goods and services. What happens when human labor has no value? Robots can produce everything but humans have nothing to provide in exchange. People still need food and shelter, so how do we distribute those things now? Some have suggested we may be in need of a Universal Basic Income which we collect while filling those few remaining jobs that robots can't do or pursuing hobbies. Canada and Finland among others are trying this. Maybe there are other solutions? Robots cannot produce "everything". There are things humans can contribute that are far more than mechanical labor: creativity, imagination, compassion. Things that make humans special. These are not just "a few remaining jobs". There will be new jobs we cannot even imagine yet. Twentyfive years ago nobody could have imagined that computers would create billion dollar industries. And there are many jobs humans will prefer to have done by humans - anything where human interaction is key to success. The solution is education, flexibility, and - hopefully- the realization that we cannot expect things to go back to how they were fifty years ago. There are jobs that have died out, as with every technological invention. People need to accept that and not try to bring back inefficient technologies of the "good old days". It's not going to happen. Edited June 29, 2017 by regentrude 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 (edited) Taxes on nonpension employees are so high right now that a family can't cover medical and education even woth both parents working. People around here go for disability to compensate, since SSI gives the children enough for community college and food. With all the seniors and noncitizens in jobs that young people used to have, the only thing left is back to grow your own food. Or enlist unless they can get enough education loans. Edited June 29, 2017 by Heigh Ho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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