s/o "girls can't do hard stuff"

[Rosie_0801]

Perhaps.  Maybe it is the fact that my mom was an ultra-feminist.  She was the first female assistant fire marshal for our large city.  She broke a lot of ground and I got so tired of hearing about the struggles, and it made me feel like if I didn't want to break the same ground there was something wrong with me.  After all, she fought so I could and all females could.   But what if I want to be a stay at home mom who lives off my husband's salary and do the traditional stuff?  I guess the message was that I was hurting the cause. 

 

You and your mum are two different people. Don't mistake your mum's hangups for an entire history of feminist thought.

 

This is another scenario that requires flexible thinking, and seeing the grey between the black and the white. 

 

There's a world of valid existence between "ultra-second-wave-feminist" and "illegitimate life form."

[Rosie_0801]

What I did internalize from my mom is to not need anyone.  You need to be able to do it all yourself and don't ask for help, especially emotionally.  She and I do delegate well, though. I do a good job with organizations where I am a leader of getting everyone to pitch in with their strengths.   You don't need a man was her mantra over and over and over.  So basically, that worked out well when I married a surgeon.  He was gone so much that I did it all: finances, mowing, child care, etc.  I didn't ask for help because I shouldn't need him.  I used Mother's Day Out and organized a Mothers of Preschoolers group to meet my needs.  I did quite well until I started homeschooling and then my dad got sick and had to move in and my husband went through a mid life crisis.  Then my emotional reserves were gone and I had no one to go to because I was isolated because I was homeschooling.  When my dad died and the kids got older, it got a little easier, but I much prefer being back at work now.  My social support system is getting back up  there.  I'm probably too independent to be married.  I help him, but never allow him to help me.  It would mean I am weak.  Which I know is stupid, but the way I feel.  I HATED when I went through my depression a couple of years ago and I felt so needy for him.  HATE HATE HATED that.  Back on my own two feet, and I plan to never go back there again.

 

Yeah. I was brought up to have that hang up. The process of dismantling it has not been pleasant.

[heartlikealion]

Oh yes, eye, hand, and ear protection are a must.    I mow on occasion and my son will always hand me the goggles (after he starts the mower for me; for some reason I just can't master that).   Oh and closed-toed shoes always too.

 

Nothing ridiculous about that at all.  Your kids need to see it too, so when they are old enough to start helping, it's just a natural thing for them to do too.

 

I agree. When I was growing up my older sisters mowed our yard for a while. They wore hats, ear protection, and I dunno what else. So it's not weird to me. My dad is a little extreme and dh laughs at him (he wears ear protection to vacuum inside). Dh is hard of hearing from a concert a long time ago (being too close to a speaker). I think why risk that? But I think he's just thinking it's weird because we see so many people mow without any of that stuff. The guys that do the campus grass wear face masks I think. Seems smart to me. I don't know if I still have the headsets... a long time ago I bought them from the gun dept. for an air show. I don't like little things in my ear so I prefer not to do the foam ones. All I can find in the house is the As Seen on TV headphones for watching tv lol.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'm fortunate that I am around people who don't see women as helpless. We do all kinds of jobs and tasks. We are as capable as men at deciding what jobs to do and what to delegate. And we're capable of getting equipment that we can handle. I am functionally disabled and yet I can mow the lawn with my power assisted lawn mower and can weed whack with my lightweight battery powered weedwhacker.

 

I don't want to go back and look for the quote but Creekland referred to me talking about getting assistance from my husband in getting people to take me seriously. That was taken out of context. It had nothing to do with being a woman and everything with being thought a drug seeker in instances where I was in extreme pain. It bothered me to be taken out of context.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ChocolateReignRemix]

And this has changed since I was a kid too.  My brothers were hired as babysitters.

 

 

It varies a lot by location I am sure.  Our oldest was in high demand, although almost exclusively for boys age 5+. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

My boys babysit a lot. Maybe because we have a lot of families with younger boys in the neighborhood? Maybe because we have lived in the same place for 18 years so we are a known entity? Maybe because they have much younger siblings so people think they know what they are doing? It is probably a combination of those things. Having the much younger siblings gives families with young kids the chance to meet my older boys. My oldest also coached a soccer camp for many years so families met him that way.

 

Same for our oldest.  He was a great big brother and was well liked in the neighborhood.  Whenever he worked camps his requests increased soon after.

[winterbaby]

What's the struggle that being a SAHM is a retreat from? For a society where there are no SAHMs? Has it not been made hard enough already?

[Rosie_0801]

What's the struggle that being a SAHM is a retreat from? For a society where there are no SAHMs? Has it not been made hard enough already?

 

Seems to me like anything women collectively win with the right to work, we collectively lose from the right to raise our kids and both fronts still need to be fought.

 

Nearly all of us need more financial literacy though. Staying home with our kids, if that's what we want to do, would be easier/safer if we had nice investment funds paying dividends. Going out to work, if that's what we want to do, would be easier/safer if we had nice investments paying dividends. It would give us all more choices.

[gardenmom5]

I've unfortunately, more than once, had the experience of being taken more seriously once I called dh in to back me up. This has happened in school and medical contexts. In all instances, dh had no greater insight or experience - in fact, he would repeat what I had said word for word - but his maleness seemed to signify that people should pay attention. 

 

It's not an anti-woman thing though - it's a condescending attitude towards mothers. Especially mothers who are primarily engaged in care work. 

 

those times I've had this the worst from men - it was becasue they were mechanic or less training. and the worst has always been from those with less education. (but granted - I hang out more with those that have). Male professionals nearly always have treated me with respect - but of those who didn't, most were simply jerks and treated everyone they thought was beneath them that way, male or female - few were actual misogynists.

 

but I get treated as "less than" by women - because I'm "just a mother"  - more often.

[Pen]

Not at all like it used to be when I was young, which was already less than it was when my mom was young.  Especially the areas that are more brain based have opened way up for girls. In my ds's class all class officers right now are girls, and my ds believes that all the girls are smarter than all the boys.  Women doctors, dentists, lawyers, architects....all of that is commonplace now.

 

Physical areas still show some gap to me.  Some sports are still dominated by boys. Some activities are still dominated by boys.  And some even have boys still more tending to want to do them, while others have girls more wanting to do them. For example, woodshop is now a required subject for one semester for both boys and girls at ds's school, but by and large (with exceptions) seems to be liked by more boys....even though the teacher is a woman.  

 

And there is still a difference in average strength between men and women, though obviously some men are weaker than some women. But we are in an area of both farm and forestry, and while it is true that much farm work is being done by women (and girls), most of the forestry work is still male dominated, even though it no longer involves hand sawing trees as a lumberjack.

 

I know a girl going into a career as a car mechanic. It is quite possible now for her to do that--but it does get noticed as unusual for her to be doing it "as a girl."

[SarahW]

To answer the first question. All my school math teachers were female. But that's only 3 people, Pre A and Algebra (same person), Geometry, and College Algebra (I did DE, and I do not recommend that sequence). All were great. The high school geometry teacher was something of a girly-girl, the others were more "practical" I guess.

 

The youth leader at my church taught high school Physics (in a different district). She went to Cedarville, and apparently was heavily pressured by her profs to go to Grad school and R&D. They thought teaching high school was a waste for her. But she wanted to marry her high school sweetheart and have kids, and do physics, so secondary teaching it was. 

 

My mother was an electrical engineer. She had (undiagnosed) LD's in language, so math was her good subject so that's what she did. But, yeah, she got into Gothard stuff, and that squashed any equality-in-education thoughts she had, I think. She never bothered to teach me math. While my brother was encouraged in his desire to pick up computer programming books and math books, my mom didn't bother to see if I was keeping up. But she was also "competing" with me, I think. I have no reading disability, and I think she tried to keep the one thing she was better at than me. 

 

So, while gender roles are prevalent in conservative Christian circles, it's not necessarily the case the places like Cedarville are holding back female STEM students. It's crazies like Gothard mixed in with some personal baggage issues mostly, I think.

 

But we were semi-rural, and I picked up a lot of "boy" skills anyways. I know how to mow a lawn and use chippers and shredders and edgers. I also know how to use a good number of tools, and was greatly appreciated on one job I had that I came in knowing what a socket wrench was and how to use it. And then there was the time in college (not Cedarville, but similar) when we were building the set for the Spring play at 3am and everyone, boys and girls, were working the power screwdrivers and power drills frantically. People who keep girls away from these things because they're "girls" are raising girls who are going to be left behind.

 

 

So, in my own case, I'm raising a white boy who is interested in STEM things. And honestly, I don't think he has ever noticed gendered messages, and it doesn't cross his mind. We were at a robot enrichment class yesterday at the library, and all the volunteers running it were women, and the main teacher was a minority woman. About a 1/3 of the students were girls. I noticed, but I don't think he did. He has also toured a quantam physics lab with a female grad student. And his main Minecraft/Roblox playmate is a girl. So I'm sorta hoping he never thinks about the mentality of "girl can't..." I mean, maybe later I'll talk with him (or DH will talk with him) about these issues, but right now I think it will just put ideas in his head that he's not ready for.

 

The same sorta with race. When he was in K it was the 2012 election, so they had a civics unit and did an activity where the kids "voted." So Crazypants was convinced for a while that he had actually "voted" for Obama. He had his reasons (lol) but the whole issue of Obama having darker skin was not mentioned at all.

 

I don't want him to grow up totally "blind" to issues in the world today. But I also don't want to infringe on his innocence. He can see that there's all sorts of people doing all sorts of jobs, so for right now I think that's enough. Unless, of course, someone is an a** and barges in with negative viewpoints.

 

I am trying to teach him manners and "chivalry" but I think those apply to everyone. Help others, especially those weaker than you. Be willing to step up and do the hard job. So I sent him to help Oma go to the store yesterday (she is undergoing chemo). I think I would also send a daughter to do that. Everyone should know how to do grocery shopping, and everyone ought to help out. 

 

 

[marbel]

Re letting down the cause.

 

I think we have to be honest with ourselves about our life choices. 

 

I am a feminist, but have not made particularly feminist choices in my adult life. I don't blame myself for that - biological urges have a lot to answer for! as do social conditions - but I can totally understand feminist women not considering my SAHM life as helping the cause. Because it isn't. In many ways, it's a retreat from the struggle.

 

One doesn't need to blame feminists for one's own feelings about one's own life choices. Just own it.

 

Yeah, I had to  listen to the lectures about me letting down the sisterhood when I quit to stay home with my first kid.  But I thought the cause was - or maybe was at one time - that women should be able to choose how they wanted to live their lives. (Within the constraints that everyone has for making lifestyle choices of course.)  For better or worse, I chose full-time stay-home motherhood.  Maybe that wasn't the right choice long term.  But it was my choice.   

 

I don't blame anyone but myself for my choices. But I reject the notion that I "retreated" from anything by choosing to stay home with my kids. 

[Carrie12345]

Re: Babysitting

 

We rarely used babysitters, but always went with someone we knew well (vs. advertisements.)  In our case, that was usually girls, though I called on my male cousins a couple of times.  (They, along with their sister, turned out not to be the greatest sitters!)  My oldest son is a well regarded babysitter for close friends.  In our family and social circles, you simply don't hire strangers.  But our family and social circles have had very few male teens in them while there have been littles needing babysitters!

[MamaBearTeacher]

Growing up in the 70s I got the message that girls can do anything boys can. Girls were really pushed in science, math and sports. I was not good at sports and found this rather oppressive to me though most girls loved it. I have since heard the names of several girls I knew growing up in the news for achievement in professional sports. I have not heard anything about the boys.

 

When I was being bullied in school none of the teachers cared but when I chose another English class over science as an elective I was asked to speak to the guidance counselor and a student teacher spent an hour of her own time talking to me about this bad decision because she "cared" so much.

 

I would say that the thing that held me back most from pursuing my interests as a teen girl was how much time I spent worrying about my appearance: my hair, any blemishes on my skin and what others would think of my clothing. This took up most of my time.

 

My youngest son has a real talent from drama. He stopped participating because there were hardly any other boys at all.

 

I think some of the greatest segregation in our society today happens in the toy store. When I was growing up I had some dolls and barbies but there was no princess stuff and my other toys were all gender neutral. There was no pink on everything.

Even my clothes were pretty gender neutral.

[Bluegoat]

Re letting down the cause.

 

I think we have to be honest with ourselves about our life choices. 

 

I am a feminist, but have not made particularly feminist choices in my adult life. I don't blame myself for that - biological urges have a lot to answer for! as do social conditions - but I can totally understand feminist women not considering my SAHM life as helping the cause. Because it isn't. In many ways, it's a retreat from the struggle.

 

One doesn't need to blame feminists for one's own feelings about one's own life choices. Just own it.

 

I suppose this is a reason I can't really feel comfortable calling myself a feminist.

 

I believe in fundamental equality for all people, all human beings, really.  I can't in any way see how that can or should be dependant on people being able or wanting to make certain choices around their biology and humanity.  Or how technological control or modification of female biology could be a pre-requisite for female equality. 

 

There is something off kilter when upholding or having respect for something requires suppressing it in some way.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Re letting down the cause.

 

I think we have to be honest with ourselves about our life choices. 

 

I am a feminist, but have not made particularly feminist choices in my adult life. I don't blame myself for that - biological urges have a lot to answer for! as do social conditions - but I can totally understand feminist women not considering my SAHM life as helping the cause. Because it isn't. In many ways, it's a retreat from the struggle.

 

One doesn't need to blame feminists for one's own feelings about one's own life choices. Just own it.

 

That's not how I see feminism.  It's about having choices and supporting people to have the right to choose.  This is a fundamental problem I have with some attitudes in feminism (with some feminists because they vary).  They essentially uphold as a model for success and freedom of choice occupations and lifestyles that are traditionally male.  So really?  That is what it means to be successful?  A woman cannot be considered successful if she lived her life in a traditional role, out of choice?  I don't agree. 

 

And sometimes there isn't quite a choice.  Sometimes we find ourselves in a situation where we forgo our personal desires to do things in a way that is either doable or in a way we think benefits someone else more than if we choose to do something else.  Usually this involves our children.  Men in a way do this as well.   Maybe they take the lower paying job or the job without travel (for example) to spend more time at home.  That sort of thing.  And some women and men don't choose to do that.  They choose to focus on their careers.  Or they are single and raising kids and have to provide and don't have the luxury of choice.  Lots of variables and configurations.  But I don't think a woman should be slammed for wanting to stay at home with her kids.  Or sacrificing her desires to do so.  Otherwise what are we saying?  She isn't the right kind of woman? 

[wintermom]

That's not how I see feminism.  It's about having choices and supporting people to have the right to choose.  

 

:iagree:   This is how I see it, too, and how it's functioned in my life. Sometimes the choices are limited, sometimes they aren't easy to make, or don't seem completely fair, but there should still be openness to choice, if at all possible.  And among the choices, there should always be the option to stay at home and be a mother and/or homemaker. They are both valid and important careers in our modern world and historically. 

[shawthorne44]

As the mother of six boys, I absolutely agree with this.

 

Problem is, the anti-boy paradigm of "all boys are rapists" doesn't preclude the "girls can't do hard stuff"  

 

(sigh).  World stinks sometimes.

[katilac]

 

I believe in fundamental equality for all people, 

 

I read this as 'functional' equality at first, which I kind of like.

[Bluegoat]

I read this as 'functional' equality at first, which I kind of like.

4Hmm, I can imagine it meaning a few different things.  The better being something like legal equality or something like formal equal opportunity.

 

It could also though mean creating actual equal opportunity, which I think would be a problem.

[wintermom]

4Hmm, I can imagine it meaning a few different things.  The better being something like legal equality or something like formal equal opportunity.

 

It could also though mean creating actual equal opportunity, which I think would be a problem.

 

Yes, it does create problems. If an organization/government agency will only hire women for positions, and there are no qualified women applying, then either they don't fill the positions or they hire unqualified women. 

[Desert Strawberry]

I don't know. I feel there is this vibe where boys can't be trusted, they only want one thing, they can't control themselves, etc.  Many parents in my experiences don't want their daughters to be friends with boys.  No play dates with boys.  They've flat out said this to me. 

 

Growing up I only had a sister and most of my family members were female.  I only knew that POV really.  Now the tables are turned and I'm the odd female out in my family.  I'm surrounded by only males.  Things are a lot different for males than I assumed.  My boys are also only into activities dominated by females (drama, choir, dance) and they endure attitudes and discrimination for that too.  Not terrible amounts no.  But I never endured terrible amounts of discrimination as a female either.  I won't say zero, but not that much. 

 

This isn't new. My daddy told me this. and I had two brothers. I wasn't allowed to be around my brother's friends even when they came to my house. 

 

My boys are experiencing much less of this. 

we run in extremely conservative circles. 

 

It isn't that all boys are rapists. it's that we are more conscious about consent. I'm teaching my boys that they are not allowed to touch another person without consent. If Luna doesn't want a hug, they cannot hug her. They are not entitled to touch her because she's cute. I hope this message carries over into their relationships when they are older, too.