s/o "girls can't do hard stuff"

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

I'm curious how many of us had female math teachers. I had a few and my dad has a Master's in math. Honestly I think I have dyscalculia which is more what holds me back from a math path than anything else.

My algebra and geometry teachers in high school were both women. My mother was a math major.

[katilac]

Stuff like this bugs me, but I dunno people look at you like you have ten heads if you point it out. 

 

Eh, story of my life. 

 

They are welcome to run the floor cleaner and move chairs.  I have absolutely not wish to do either of those things, which in many people's eyes makes me not a real woman able to do anything a man does...  What if I don't want to????????  I would rather he lift the heavy things.  Does that make me a bad person?????

 

If you don't want to, then you don't do it. Exactly the same as it is for a man who doesn't want to run the floor cleaner. 

 

I get your point. I can remember, YEARS ago, that my grandma said she thought the whole women's lib movement was crazy. As a farmer's wife, she could NOT understand why any sane woman would want to do a man's work. She was convinced that as the woman and as the one who didn't have to do the hard farm labor, that she definitely had the better end of the deal.

 

Wow, she had a very different farming experience than my grandmother, who did lots of hard, nasty, and brutal work on the farm. 

 

I also see a ton of negative messages for boys. This society has become so focused on lifting up girls, they turn around and blame the boys and try to crush them down. It seems to be ok to say means things about boys. When I had the last baby, I looked at him and actually thought about how society already has set forth that he is bad, violent, a potential rapist, oppressor, etc, and nothing he can do will change that. He has a whole list of things he will not be allowed to do, but if he does it, people will say he is "not a real boy." If a girl hits a boy, and he cries, then he is ridiculed. If a boy hits a girl, he is punished and violent and "what is wrong with the world today." I could go on and on about this, but I am far more concerned about what is happening to boys. 

 

We have two daughters, and tired of the "get out the shotgun" jokes early on. dh doesn't have an "application for dating" his daughters, and he doesn't glare at or try to intimidate any young men who come around. He talks to them like, y'know, people. 

 

We do talk about being smart and safe because of the reality of bigger and stronger people being able to overpower you, because . . . reality.  

 

I agree that boys can have it tough socially when they have unusual interests, or simply have sensitive natures. It's like, it's great to sensitive and vulnerable as a man, but only if you're 6'3" and muscular, lol. 

 

However, I don't like the idea of being "more concerned" for one gender than the other. It's not a contest. Equality benefits everyone. The freedom to express your true self benefits everyone. 

[LMD]

I had 2 female maths teachers in grades 7-12, and they were by far the best maths teachers.

Some of the male teachers were pathetic. And clearly favoured the boys.

 

The last female math teacher had a reputation for being tough. We were kind of streamed and the top maths class. She was great, we whined but she got results. I wish she had lasted the whole year, she got sick and left and we got stuck with a joke of a teacher (male) who was creepy and didn't even try to teach us. My life may well have been very different if I'd had her as a mentor for a little longer...

 

And this attitude about girls not being capable is a huge reason we homeschool. My dd doesn't take any crap from boys...

[Ausmumof3]

Responding without reading replies yet: Yes, I do think they still hear it. Not as often as back in the day, and they hear countering messages, but they definitely hear it.

 

Small example that comes to mind is the meetings at our old homeschool group. When the meeting ended, they would always say, "Can we get some strong boys to put the chairs back?" And I'd have to say, "The strong girls will help, too!" One of my dds was def stronger than 90% of any other kid there, male or female.

 

The funny thing is that they weren't even heavy chairs, lol. No one had to be strong to pick them up.

Still not the right thing to say but sometimes stuff like this motivates the boys. I know I'm generalising dd horribly but there often seems to be a core of girls who are glad or willing to help whereas the boys might need a bit of encouragement...

[Carrie12345]

I only remember 3 of my math teachers in high school (2 women, 1 man) but maybe one of them taught two levels (?)

I only remember 2 from my four-year middle school (1 woman, 1 man.)

 

I was an A math student, when Algebra in 8th grade was a Big Deal.  I was completely lost in that class, and got bumped back down.

I went back to being an A math student, all the way up to senior year Pre-Calc.  I got completely lost in that class, to the point that I dropped it to keep it off my transcript.

 

Both of those teachers were men.  I am in NO WAY saying it was because they were men, but it's something that only just realized, over 22 years later.

[heartlikealion]

Sounds like a lot of us have had female math teachers. Seems like that alone would help send the message women can go into those fields. But I guess there are always other messages people hear that can override things like that. My first male math teacher was in college.

 

I would assume they are thinking the moms have already done the majority of the work relating to the kid activity and so this is a way for the guys to pitch in and make it more even.

 

I don't know, because I'm single and do everything for my kids regardless, but it seems to me that when it comes to things like school, scouts, and even many sports, the moms are the ones doing most of the day to day work.  For example, I'm gonna guess not too many dads attach their kids' scout patches to their uniforms.  Or arrange for specific clothes to be ready / bags packed for a given activity.  Or food brought for the group if that's what was needed.  And pretty much everything else that needs done all day when it comes to kids.  :)

 

I have absolutely no problem sitting on my hiney watching the men move the chairs after a long day.

 

ETA I also think things like that are for a little physical or social relief for guys which is not otherwise easily available in the situation.  What may feel like heavy lifting to an average woman may just feel like relaxing exercise to an average man.

 

Basically I don't think we need to look for offense in things like that.  I'm sure nobody actually doubts that women can run machines.  Most of us drive big-ass cars among other things.  :p

 

I wondered that as well.
 

----

Tonight I asked dh if it would embarrass him if I mowed the lawn. He said not at all. I said okay just asking because I always see men mowing the yards here. He was mowing tonight and I said maybe I could start mowing, too (we just got the lawn mower and I have never in my life used one).

[Wheres Toto]

I'm curious how many of us had female math teachers. I had a few and my dad has a Master's in math. Honestly I think I have dyscalculia which is more what holds me back from a math path than anything else.

 

In high school I had two female math teachers, and one male math teacher.  My calculus teacher would have been female but she stunk as a teacher and I dropped the class.

 

In college, I was a Biology major.  My calculus teacher was female.  I only had to take one other math class my entire college career and I think it was taught by a man but I can't remember for sure.   My biology and chemistry teachers in high school and college were all male (I'm pretty sure).  

[SKL]

I think my last female math and science teachers were in middle school.

 

Well, at least my kids' science teacher is female.  :p

 

Little anecdote from ~35 years ago.  In my high school, one guy taught all the maths from Algebra II on up.  He actually said out loud that girls should not study higher math because they are not going to be good at it.  Once he made my sister so mad, picking on her in front of the class (she was one of the better students), that she stormed out of the class and quit on the spot.

 

I heard that he stopped being such an ass when his own daughter was going through school.  Aha, so girls can be smart about numbers?!

 

I do think a lot has changed since those days.  :p

Edited June 10, 2017 by SKL

[Caroline]

I had a freshman male student ask me who would be teaching the multivariable calculus class for him when he was a senior. I told him I was slated to teach that class. He said, "Really? But you're a woman and we have lots of male math teachers here."

[FaithManor]

There is still a lot of misogyny in this area, and it seeps into the schools for certain. So there is a lot of girls aren't good at math or science. Also a lot of discrimination against girl's sports. Laws or no laws, they find ways to make sure the boys get all the attention, glory, effort, and money. The girls get what is left.

 

Also a lot of reverse discrimination so boys who are good at English, writing, history, art and music, get called sissies, panty waists, and worse.

[Arcadia]

Sounds like a lot of us have had female math teachers. Seems like that alone would help send the message women can go into those fields. But I guess there are always other messages people hear that can override things like that.

If you mean becoming a math teacher or lecturer then yes. Education was pretty much a female domain where I was growing up. A high school boy who is good in math might have investment banking suggested as a career to him because banking is a cutthroat (shark tank) world where I was. A high school girl good in math would likely get suggestions such as accountancy or teaching unless the girl has a reputable for being "bloodthirsty" competitive.

 

Same kind of steering happens in engineering. Electrical engineering and computer engineering are supposedly less taxing physically while civil engineering, chemical/petroleum engineering and mechanical engineering have a reputation of lots more physical hands on and field work. So in my engineering school, many girls in my cohort are in electrical engineering while mechanical engineering had the least percentage of girls.

 

The message I had growing up in the city was that to be successful regardless of gender, you either have social connections and/or are ruthless/relentless. There were many female political leaders when I was growing up. There were Margaret Thatcher (Iron lady), Indira Gandhi, Benazir Bhutto.

[Arcadia]

Also a lot of reverse discrimination so boys who are good at English, writing, history, art and music, get called sissies, panty waists, and worse.

That for us ran along racial and gender lines. It wasn't just gender. My older boy got a free pass for "bad" writing (composition) in school because he is a boy. However he was expected to be good at languages, art and music because he is an Asian. So while there was no name calling, he did get the Asian academic powerhouse stereotype treatment.

[Carrie12345]

 

----

Tonight I asked dh if it would embarrass him if I mowed the lawn. He said not at all. I said okay just asking because I always see men mowing the yards here. He was mowing tonight and I said maybe I could start mowing, too (we just got the lawn mower and I have never in my life used one).

 

 

I mow and I weed whack, and I shovel, but the leaf blower once tried to eat my shirt, so I refuse to touch it anymore!

[gardenmom5]

 

 

----

Tonight I asked dh if it would embarrass him if I mowed the lawn. He said not at all. I said okay just asking because I always see men mowing the yards here. He was mowing tonight and I said maybe I could start mowing, too (we just got the lawn mower and I have never in my life used one).

 

 

:confused: :confused:

color me confused about why it would embarrass your dh if you mowed the lawn - unless he is particularly control freaky about it and is afraid you wont' do it to his specifications . . .

I saw plenty of girls mowing lawns growing up.  I never used our gas mower - but did give some tries with out rotary (do not recommend on a hill.)

 

[marbel]

:confused: :confused:

color me confused about why it would embarrass your dh if you mowed the lawn - unless he is particularly control freaky about it and is afraid you wont' do it to his specifications . . .

I saw plenty of girls mowing lawns growing up.  I never used our gas mower - but did give some tries with out rotary (do not recommend on a hill.)

 

 

She said that where she lived, men did the mowing.  I could imagine a guy feeling pressure to do all the mowing and not wanting his wife to do it, if that was typical in the neighborhood.

 

When I was a kid, my mom told my dad she would rather mow than do dishes, so she took over that job. We had a big yard.  That was between 1956 (when I was born) and 1965 (when we moved away from there).  She also took care of her big vegetable garden, though I guess that has always been considered women's work.

[gardenmom5]

I had a freshman male student ask me who would be teaching the multivariable calculus class for him when he was a senior. I told him I was slated to teach that class. He said, "Really? But you're a woman and we have lots of male math teachers here."

 

my friend trained as a math teacher. when she went back to work - she taught spanish - then she switched to math (for awhile at least.) some parents were screaming the spanish teacher was teaching math . . . no, actually, the math teacher is teaching spanish.

[Guest]

I had multiple female math teachers, and two of them were among the best I'd ever had.

[MEmama]

Do you think the current generation of girls hears this?

 

I feel like they don't. My kids have been in co-ed martial arts, science programs, etc. and I don't get the impression they are hearing or internalizing a "girls can't" message. I'm 50 years old, so I remember those messages - when I was a kid, it was considered somewhat remarkable when a girl could do traditional boy activities. I recall a commercial about a girl delivering newspapers, which was supposed to be surprising. I recall conversations with my brothers about the relative abilities of boys and girls. I think a lot has changed.

 

Do you feel girls still hear those old messages?

In the political headlines, yes. Absolutely.

 

In the real world? Obviously some people still feel that way, but overwhelmingly I would say no. My teen is astounded by the news and I'm forever having to explain where the biases come from. It totally does not resonate with my modern kid.

[regentrude]

I had a freshman male student ask me who would be teaching the multivariable calculus class for him when he was a senior. I told him I was slated to teach that class. He said, "Really? But you're a woman and we have lots of male math teachers here."

 

Wow. 

[Bluegoat]

Then again giving birth is crazy freaking hard work.  LOL

 

Oh, yes, totally.  And it's generally been aknowledged as such, too.  I just think the idea that women might not have been in some jobs makes a lot more sense when you figure anyone married had a good chance of being pregnant pretty regularly.

[Bluegoat]

My boys are in girl dominated activities.  But what I don't understand is why these activities don't attract more boys. 

 

I think there is a lot of good evidence that in a society that doesn't care about roles, men and women tend to gravitate to somewhat different kinds of work.  You can look up the Scandanavian gender paradox for example.  While in societies where "male" jobs have more money and status associated with them, women, once allowed, will tend to go into those jobs at rates fairly close to men.  Once you get a society where that attitude isn't present, though - work that is traditionally male or female are both respected and paid well - you actually see more a sex gap in numbers.

 

I think the other issue is mainly around boys being given the shaft in our North American school systems, particularly in early education.  They never catch up after that.  I wonder to about them being more affected by things like gaming, though I don't know if there is any research on that.  But my sense is that boys often have a strong desire for achievement - sometimes publicly, but also the idea of accomplishing something.  I think that playing something like Minecraft, or a sports game, or whatever, can be much more satisfying than the work of learning to actually build things or become good at a sport.  Not to mention the constant dopamine hits.

[Bluegoat]

I remember when I was four, my parents bought me a picture book with the title Girls Can Be Anything.  It was supposed to be empowering.  But it was the first time I had heard a message in either direction, and it was the first moment of doubt I ever had.  Why on earth would they have to write a whole book about it if it wasn't self-evident?  Why was the boy character saying girls couldn't?  Did he know something I didn't?  I was only four, but I can remember every page of that book. 

 

I don't see a lot of anti-girl messages.  But, I do think boys are at risk in schools, in particular.  Schools, especially, are very anti-boy in attitudes and expectations.  I worked in a preschool, and at a meeting when we were looking for new teachers, I mentioned how nice it would be to have a male teacher, to get that male role model thing going.  I was appalled by the fact that the director said she would be hesitant to hire a male teacher, because so many parents would not want their child around a man.  So I started paying attention and hearing parents, even parents of boys, saying they would never hire a boy as a babysitter or want a male preschool teacher because of the risk of sexual abuse.  It just floored me.  I mean, Teacher Tom (who writes an awesome blog about his preschool) is a man.  Mister Rogers was a man.  We're doing a dis-service to men who want to work with children and to children, when we act like men who like children are criminals.  I have a friend who is a transgendered man who has talked a lot about out different his interactions with children in society have been pre and post transition.  When he looked female, it was fine for him to smile at random children at stores and such, but post transition, he absolutely has to curb his interactions with kids because of the way society views men.

 

That's interesting - I've heard similar stories about kids at that age - say under about 6 - introduced to the concept of racism in a book or classroom, for the first time.  It's funny with little ones like that - they don't always understand things in quite the way adults intend them to.

[Bluegoat]

When my oldest was in grade school, she loved robots and we decided to join a Lego-robotics team for homeschoolers that was starting up in our area. We were asked to leave because they wanted it to be a boys-only club. It took her until her junior year in high school before she was willing to try again and loved it. But then this robotics team was run by the local college.

 

So yes, we have heard that girls aren't supposed to be doing math and science. Also got this message from the Chemistry Co-op teacher. 

 

I'm sympathetic o this desire for a group for boys, TBH.  I think there is something wrong when I can easily find a group for my daughters that is girl-only - Guiding, but also STEM club or a group for girls interested in things like firefighting are options here - but there is nothing for my son.  Including Scouting.

[Guest]

My four oldest boys each became Red Cross certified babysitters. Not a single one of them ever got a babysitting job. Not once. No one wants teen boys as babysitters.

[HollyDay]

I don't think they hear it anywhere near what we did back in the 70s and 80s.  In fact, when I asked oldest, she was surprised I even brought it up.  No one has ever said or implied any such thing to her.  She rides horses, does archery, and ice skates.  She regularly participates on equal footing with the boys and she says she has never heard a single negative.  She is always encouraged right along with everyone else of her caliber. Youngest is pursuing a STEM field in college, but so far (she just graduated high school), she has not run into anything.  In fact, the boys eyes tend to light up when she starts talking because she "gets it."  They can have lively conversations about science and math academics.  She beats the boys and the girls at chess regularly.  So far, it just hasn't been an issue or even a discussion.  There hasn't been a reason to have such a discussion.  And I hope it stays that way.

 

 

 

 

[SKL]

I'm sympathetic o this desire for a group for boys, TBH.  I think there is something wrong when I can easily find a group for my daughters that is girl-only - Guiding, but also STEM club or a group for girls interested in things like firefighting are options here - but there is nothing for my son.  Including Scouting.

 

Yes, I'm not sure what to think about girls-only science programs.  One of my girls is drawn to engineering type stuff, and I think she would feel the same about a good program whether or not it had boys in it.  My other kid likes science fine, but also likes the social aspects of group stuff - she would do the girl stuff to hang with the girls - but I still think she would like it better with boys in it - as she happens to like boys, LOL.  Plus when you have a class that happens to be all boys (whether by design or by chance), it's always considered a bad thing.  So - what evil things to boys do when they are together without girls?  What special benefits are they getting?  None?  Then what is the problem?

 

Messages that state the obvious are concerning because they beg the question - wait - why would anyone think girls aren't capable / strong?  Why wouldn't people assume people of color are intelligent / moral?  I think the reality and history do need to be studied, but not with young kids who are born assuming we're all essentially good and capable.

[SKL]

My four oldest boys each became Red Cross certified babysitters. Not a single one of them ever got a babysitting job. Not once. No one wants teen boys as babysitters.

 

And this has changed since I was a kid too.  My brothers were hired as babysitters.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

My four oldest boys each became Red Cross certified babysitters. Not a single one of them ever got a babysitting job. Not once. No one wants teen boys as babysitters.

 

This stinks.

 

My older kid mentioned wanting to babysit.  I told him to consider something else because getting gigs would be difficult.

[Guest]

I think the gals here are hearing the message, but they aren't putting the effort in. Of course,they don't need to here, as the public school has tilted the playing field by offering honors and AP humanities, but no honors or AP Stem. So they never have to really compete in the math/sci domain. The top 20 students usually have three males, two of which will be math brains. In my sons year, the gals gave up in third grade. They were only interested in winning so they put their effort into what they were good at, rather than working to obtain grade level mastery in math and science. That attitude, drop what you aren't naturally good at instead of putting effort in, is really big here.

 

 

 

Guys here don't have any trouble finding babysitting gigs. Big market for afterschool and summer care, and parents of 4th to 6th grade boys want teen boys to be role models and get the dc outside and active.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[SparklyUnicorn]

 However, there are probably more girls than guys that are not qualified to serve because of their psychological make-up.

 

Yikes.  Really?  Come on.  So what psychological makeup do males possess that makes them better candidates?  They love the idea of killing people?  Geesh, I hope not.

 

Anyhow, I don't agree with the concept of a draft for anyone. 

[Caroline]

This stinks.

 

My older kid mentioned wanting to babysit. I told him to consider something else because getting gigs would be difficult.

My boys babysit a lot. Maybe because we have a lot of families with younger boys in the neighborhood? Maybe because we have lived in the same place for 18 years so we are a known entity? Maybe because they have much younger siblings so people think they know what they are doing? It is probably a combination of those things. Having the much younger siblings gives families with young kids the chance to meet my older boys. My oldest also coached a soccer camp for many years so families met him that way.

[SparklyUnicorn]

My boys babysit a lot. Maybe because we have a lot of families with younger boys in the neighborhood? Maybe because we have lived in the same place for 18 years so we are a known entity? Maybe because they have much younger siblings so people think they know what they are doing? It is probably a combination of those things. Having the much younger siblings gives families with young kids the chance to meet my older boys. My oldest also coached a soccer camp for many years so families met him that way.

 

Certainly for anyone, knowing people helps to get babysitting gigs.  We don't know anyone.  So it could be that is a bigger factor than him being a boy.

[marbel]

Certainly for anyone, knowing people helps to get babysitting gigs.  We don't know anyone.  So it could be that is a bigger factor than him being a boy.

 

Yeah, we know some boys who babysit but they babysit for people they knew before they became babysitters for them.  (Yeah, that's an awkward sentence.)  People want someone they know, female or male.  My daughter babysits sometimes and nearly everyone who calls her is someone we know personally.  Occasionally she will get a call from someone who doesn't know us, but got her name as a recommendation.  So, they don't know her, but they know of her though people they trust.   And most of the time then, they'll have her over the first time as a mother's helper so the mom is there and can see her with the kids.  

[Caroline]

Certainly for anyone, knowing people helps to get babysitting gigs. We don't know anyone. So it could be that is a bigger factor than him being a boy.

I will say that they babysit for families of boys. They don't do a lot of babysitting for families of all girls.

[Paige]

No, I don't think it did necessarily.  But this is the whole problem I have with this. If girls CAN do the hard stuff, then does that mean that they HAVE to?  Since girls are absolutely equal does that mean that they don't get a choice about farm work any more than boys do?  If hard stuff needs to be done, then everyone has to do it.  So the draft... if we are saying that then we are saying that girls should be drafted just as much as boys.  I'm not sure I agree with that.  There are sensitve boys ( ie, my oldest though I bet his psych would get him a medical waiver) that shouldn't do it I know.  However, there are probably more girls than guys that are not qualified to serve because of their psychological make-up.  I certainly do not have the stomach to kill anyone.  I also don't have the stomach to be a nurse, so I would be pretty useless in a war situation.   So to me, if you are capable of cleaning a floor, then you are required to take your turn cleaning the floor.  I'm not sure I like that.   That is why I took it personally.  Does that make sense???

 

I don't understand. Why should girls get more of a choice on farm work if they both live on the farm? Why do boys who hate farm work have to do more than girls who hate farm work? I think people should have appropriate work for what they can handle no matter the gender, and maybe the trend will be that men can work with heavier equipment, but a smaller boy should not be assumed to be able to handle heavier equipment than a stronger girl. 

 

I do think if we have a draft then it should be an equal draft. I don't think we should have a draft, fwiw. But, having a generation of lost boys is not good for society and nobody wants to be drafted. I guess I don't understand why girls get to have their preferences respected and boys don't. There should be equal sucking it up if you have relatively equal situations. Pregnant women included in the draft= ridiculous, but most of the time we're not talking about such obvious gender differences in abilities.

[Carrie12345]

then does that mean that they HAVE to?

 

So to me, if you are capable of cleaning a floor, then you are required to take your turn cleaning the floor. I'm not sure I like that. That is why I took it personally. Does that make sense???

No, it doesn't.

My daughters are aiming to be firefighters and EMTs. Why would I have to be?

I'm a sahm. Why should they have to be?

You can pull cows out of mud but choose not to. Kudos. I don't have to just because you can.

 

You're fears have no place in other people's goals, and your choice to take offense to others' abilities seems a bit off.

[fairfarmhand]

No, but don't look down on me if I don't want to or make me feel like I'm letting down my sex which is the message I get sometimes.  I want my husband to open up my door.  I want my boys to do the heavy farm work around here.  Sorry if that makes me less of a woman. 

 

Doesn't make you less of a woman,

 

We don't have older boys. All we have are these girls. And they do what needs to be done.

 

It annoys me when women don't do something that needs to be done because "I'm a woman." then you're dropping the ball. But if the chickens need to be fed, the 50 lb bag of food is in my car, and my dh is nowhere to be found, I carry that thing to the barn and feed them. Because that's what needs to be done. If he's outside, I'm more than happy to have him do it.

 

It seems to be a cop out if something needs to be done and it goes undone when I am physically capable of doing it because of my gender. I don't *like* carrying heavy things and doing hard sweaty work. But that's because I'm human, not because I'm a woman. I'm out in the field when they need bales picked up if there's noone else. when he has plenty of help, I'm glad to be cooking their food and running cool water out there to them.

 

I have family membbers who won't lift a finger to work outdoors because of the "I'm a woman." and when they're widowed or have some sort of emergency, they're helpless. Not because they can't but because they've told themselves that for so long they truly feel incapable. They won't even TRY to push their abilities.

[Caroline]

Perfectly stated!

 

Doesn't make you less of a woman,

 

We don't have older boys. All we have are these girls. And they do what needs to be done.

 

It annoys me when women don't do something that needs to be done because "I'm a woman." then you're dropping the ball. But if the chickens need to be fed, the 50 lb bag of food is in my car, and my dh is nowhere to be found, I carry that thing to the barn and feed them. Because that's what needs to be done. If he's outside, I'm more than happy to have him do it.

 

It seems to be a cop out if something needs to be done and it goes undone when I am physically capable of doing it because of my gender. I don't *like* carrying heavy things and doing hard sweaty work. But that's because I'm human, not because I'm a woman. I'm out in the field when they need bales picked up if there's noone else. when he has plenty of help, I'm glad to be cooking their food and running cool water out there to them.

 

I have family membbers who won't lift a finger to work outdoors because of the "I'm a woman." and when they're widowed or have some sort of emergency, they're helpless. Not because they can't but because they've told themselves that for so long they truly feel incapable. They won't even TRY to push their abilities.

[fairfarmhand]

BTW, in my drama group, the boys do most of the heavy lifting. I do ask everyone to pitch in, but the boys just seem to like it more. I think they're showing off. It's not that the girls can't, but the guys just really jump in quickly when it comes to carrying heavy stuff.

 

ETA: It's like the boys compete to see who can do what. We call it "roostering"

Edited June 10, 2017 by fairfarmhand

[Bluegoat]

Yikes.  Really?  Come on.  So what psychological makeup do males possess that makes them better candidates?  They love the idea of killing people?  Geesh, I hope not.

 

Anyhow, I don't agree with the concept of a draft for anyone. 

 

Testosterone does make a difference in being aggressive and competative.

[Carrie12345]

Perhaps.  Maybe it is the fact that my mom was an ultra-feminist.  She was the first female assistant fire marshal for our large city.  She broke a lot of ground and I got so tired of hearing about the struggles, and it made me feel like if I didn't want to break the same ground there was something wrong with me.  After all, she fought so I could and all females could.   But what if I want to be a stay at home mom who lives off my husband's salary and do the traditional stuff?  I guess the message was that I was hurting the cause. 

 

But you're an adult woman now.  Responding as though other women shouldn't speak of their genderless abilities is MUCH more damaging to the cause.

[Terabith]

My four oldest boys each became Red Cross certified babysitters. Not a single one of them ever got a babysitting job. Not once. No one wants teen boys as babysitters.

 

That is such a shame.  And honestly, I think it's getting WORSE for boys.  My husband is 40 and was apparently much in demand as a teenage babysitter.  Little boys, especially, loved him.  He had his pick of jobs.  I don't think that would be the case today.

[gardenmom5]

I don't understand. Why should girls get more of a choice on farm work if they both live on the farm? Why do boys who hate farm work have to do more than girls who hate farm work? I think people should have appropriate work for what they can handle no matter the gender, and maybe the trend will be that men can work with heavier equipment, but a smaller boy should not be assumed to be able to handle heavier equipment than a stronger girl. 

 

I do think if we have a draft then it should be an equal draft. I don't think we should have a draft, fwiw. But, having a generation of lost boys is not good for society and nobody wants to be drafted. I guess I don't understand why girls get to have their preferences respected and boys don't. There should be equal sucking it up if you have relatively equal situations. Pregnant women included in the draft= ridiculous, but most of the time we're not talking about such obvious gender differences in abilities.

 

my response to kids (either gender) who didnt' want to help was "I didn't ask if you wanted to, I asked you to do it".

 

my objection to women in infantry/combat position is the lack of upper body strength required  - that often puts men in the position of carrying a heavier load than otherwise.

body strength isn't generally an issue for pilots /aircraft/maintenance.  .  . . as I think of the saudi air force major who dropped leaflets along with her bombs.  "you've been bombed by a woman,  have a nice day".  does wonders for enemy morale . . .

[heartlikealion]

I mow and I weed whack, and I shovel, but the leaf blower once tried to eat my shirt, so I refuse to touch it anymore!

 

Oh no! lol. Learning to use the weed whacker and bush trimmer is next on my list. I mowed today. Man, that was tiring. The handle bar felt too low for me and dh is a foot taller than me! I thought it might help if I did some mowing because it looks awful for someone his height to have to operate that thing. I actually got a bit of stuff in my eye and a blister on my thumb. I told him I might wear goggles (I actually wear glasses but they didn't help enough) and/or gloves next time. He thinks I sound ridiculous but I don't care.

 

:confused: :confused:

color me confused about why it would embarrass your dh if you mowed the lawn - unless he is particularly control freaky about it and is afraid you wont' do it to his specifications . . .

I saw plenty of girls mowing lawns growing up.  I never used our gas mower - but did give some tries with out rotary (do not recommend on a hill.)

 

 

I just meant where we live. I see men mowing, most with riding mowers.

 

She said that where she lived, men did the mowing.  I could imagine a guy feeling pressure to do all the mowing and not wanting his wife to do it, if that was typical in the neighborhood.

 

When I was a kid, my mom told my dad she would rather mow than do dishes, so she took over that job. We had a big yard.  That was between 1956 (when I was born) and 1965 (when we moved away from there).  She also took care of her big vegetable garden, though I guess that has always been considered women's work.

 

Yeah. He also works with our neighbors so I didn't know if it would get him teased/emasculated at work somehow.

 

He mowed the front yard yesterday and I mowed the back today. The mower was actually kinda hard for me to push but I think it was good exercise.

Edited June 10, 2017 by heartlikealion

[SKL]

The person I pay to mow my lawn is a man.  I would be OK if it was a woman too.  :P

 

Guess I'm not doing much for the cause ....

[Frances]

Perhaps. Maybe it is the fact that my mom was an ultra-feminist. She was the first female assistant fire marshal for our large city. She broke a lot of ground and I got so tired of hearing about the struggles, and it made me feel like if I didn't want to break the same ground there was something wrong with me. After all, she fought so I could and all females could. But what if I want to be a stay at home mom who lives off my husband's salary and do the traditional stuff? I guess the message was that I was hurting the cause.

Did your mom actually say that to you? In your eyes, what made her an ultra-feminist as opposed to just a feminist who had the strength and confidence to do something difficult in attaining a job traditionally held by men? Do you not believe she faced struggles in doing so? To me, it sounds like you are judging her negatively instead of empathizing with her struggles and admiring her. So why then are you upset that others might judge you for your choices?

 

Although I consider myself a feminist, I stayed home full-time with my son for several years and then worked only part-time for many more, despite being very well-educated in a traditionally male field. Even though my husband was in academia, so we were surrounded by lots of liberals and feminists, I never once felt judged or criticized for my choices. If anything, I mainly heard envy that we were able to manage so well on one income.

 

Edited to add that in response to the original question, even though I grew up in the rural Midwest and am the same age as the OP, except for at church, I never got the message that girls couldn't do anything boys could do. I mowed lawns, baby sat, and delivered papers for money. Mowing was my favorite because it was the easiest and paid the best. I was a total tomboy and my parents, especially my dad, completely supported it, despite the numerous trips to the ER, primarily due to playing sports with my older brother and his friends.

 

In high school when the first Macs became available, it was the female middle school math teacher, not the male high school one, who taught herself to program so that she could teach the first programming class. And there were more girls than boys in the first class. And all of my college math profs, primarily male, were completely supportive. My dad would have loved for me to be an engineer. He worked in a primarily blue-collar environment where only the engineers had college degreees. Alas, I had the ability, but not the interest.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Frances

[katilac]

  I told him I might wear goggles (I actually wear glasses but they didn't help enough) and/or gloves next time. He thinks I sound ridiculous but I don't care.

 

 

 

 

You should most definitely be wearing both goggles and ear plugs, gloves if they are comfortable dh wears all of the above when mowing. 

 

No earplugs for me, because I only mow with the manual reel mower! 

[gardenmom5]

BTW, in my drama group, the boys do most of the heavy lifting. I do ask everyone to pitch in, but the boys just seem to like it more. I think they're showing off. It's not that the girls can't, but the guys just really jump in quickly when it comes to carrying heavy stuff.

 

ETA: It's like the boys compete to see who can do what. We call it "roostering"

 

in the wise words of Mr. Darcy when Miss Bingly invited him to join her and Miss Elizabeth Bennett doing a turn about the room - if their object is to be seen - he has a much better view from where he is sitting . . . .

[gardenmom5]

What I did internalize from my mom is to not need anyone.  You need to be able to do it all yourself and don't ask for help, especially emotionally.  She and I do delegate well, though. I do a good job with organizations where I am a leader of getting everyone to pitch in with their strengths.   You don't need a man was her mantra over and over and over.  So basically, that worked out well when I married a surgeon.  He was gone so much that I did it all: finances, mowing, child care, etc.  I didn't ask for help because I shouldn't need him.  I used Mother's Day Out and organized a Mothers of Preschoolers group to meet my needs.  I did quite well until I started homeschooling and then my dad got sick and had to move in and my husband went through a mid life crisis.  Then my emotional reserves were gone and I had no one to go to because I was isolated because I was homeschooling.  When my dad died and the kids got older, it got a little easier, but I much prefer being back at work now.  My social support system is getting back up  there.  I'm probably too independent to be married.  I help him, but never allow him to help me.  It would mean I am weak.  Which I know is stupid, but the way I feel.  I HATED when I went through my depression a couple of years ago and I felt so needy for him.  HATE HATE HATED that.  Back on my own two feet, and I plan to never go back there again.

 

you know - we are social beings, and we are meant to be emotionally connected (equally yoked) - especially to our spouse.

[marbel]

Oh no! lol. Learning to use the weed whacker and bush trimmer is next on my list. I mowed today. Man, that was tiring. The handle bar felt too low for me and dh is a foot taller than me! I thought it might help if I did some mowing because it looks awful for someone his height to have to operate that thing. I actually got a bit of stuff in my eye and a blister on my thumb. I told him I might wear goggles (I actually wear glasses but they didn't help enough) and/or gloves next time. He thinks I sound ridiculous but I don't care.

 

<snip>

 

Oh yes, eye, hand, and ear protection are a must.    I mow on occasion and my son will always hand me the goggles (after he starts the mower for me; for some reason I just can't master that).   Oh and closed-toed shoes always too.

 

Nothing ridiculous about that at all.  Your kids need to see it too, so when they are old enough to start helping, it's just a natural thing for them to do too.